VP picks

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Kifle
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 03, 2008 11:49 pm

avak wrote:omg, you seriously think Cindy McCain is hot? Grrrrrross. Michelle Obama is actually really beautiful....in a natural, charismatic way. That Cindy thing looks like her Real Doll "as-is shelf" tag might poke out of her dress at any moment. Lars and the Real Girl anyone??


Lol, seriously? She paid the cost to be the boss...

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Fred Thompson's daughter/wife thing he totes around... now that is where it's at.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Vaprak » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:39 am

I don't think anyone could have said it better:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/02/ ... index.html
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:48 am

Didn't know Penn was a libertarian. This threatens my theory that in order to become famous you need to be mindless enough to appeal to the masses.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:10 pm

Corth wrote:Didn't know Penn was a libertarian. This threatens my theory that in order to become famous you need to be mindless enough to appeal to the masses.


Isn't Jesse Ventura a Libertarian?

I think you're just proving libertarians are mindless enough to appeal to the masses. :P
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ambar » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:22 pm

Disoputlip wrote:I am not american, but if I should vote for a vice president then the question about the VP have a pregnant daughter is one of the most important questions to answer to see if they can handle the VP post.


HOW? Heh we teach our kids the only beliefs we know, when they are little they are easy to watch and easy to "control" .. if they act out on them as older teenagers how in the heck is it our fault as parents or how does that make a less likely political candidates? Unless you suggest that if she were home more she'd be more likely to watch her kids more .. Right :) Haven't you heard that old adage that "preachers kids are the worst" .. Same may apply here, lets ask the teenager rather than the parent! You morale majority who think we can control our teenage kids to this extent make me laugh :) You simply cannot follow them 24/7, it isn't possible. You either don't have kids or don't have kids old enough, think Kifle is the closest :) And his aren't at that stage yet anyway :) Hell my three year old grandson fell down the front steps a few days ago and his mommy was right there!

BTW I am no Palin supporter .. didn't know who the heck she was until a few weeks ago, so it isn't that .. hell she may not be the person for the job because of inexperience, and let it be said again, I am still not sure the WORLD as a whole is ready for a female US leader/co-leader .. but lets not blame that on her parenting skills or lack thereof .. Blame her dad who gave her that chromosome that made her female :)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:45 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Didn't know Penn was a libertarian. This threatens my theory that in order to become famous you need to be mindless enough to appeal to the masses.


Isn't Jesse Ventura a Libertarian?

I think you're just proving libertarians are mindless enough to appeal to the masses. :P


My ass is more of a libertarian than Jesse Ventura. Look, Bill Maher from Politically Incorrect calls himself a Libertarian and he's as liberal as they come. For a while it was the trendy thing to do. What I read from that article that Penn wrote were true Libertarian sentiments.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:04 pm

Ambar wrote:BTW I am no Palin supporter .. didn't know who the heck she was until a few weeks ago, so it isn't that .. hell she may not be the person for the job because of inexperience, and let it be said again, I am still not sure the WORLD as a whole is ready for a female US leader/co-leader .. but lets not blame that on her parenting skills or lack thereof .. Blame her dad who gave her that chromosome that made her female :)

I don't believe that bad parenting skills are a direct reflection of her ability or inability to act as Vice President. However, I hold "moral leaders" up to a higher moral standard than other politicians. If your platform is going to be one that pushes your morality on other people (pro-life, anti-gay), then you'd better be damn well sure all of your own ducks are in a nice, neat row at home.

My ass is more of a libertarian than Jesse Ventura. Look, Bill Maher from Politically Incorrect calls himself a Libertarian and he's as liberal as they come. For a while it was the trendy thing to do. What I read from that article that Penn wrote were true Libertarian sentiments.

Authoritarian/Libertarian and Conservative/Liberal are perpendicular axes on the political spectrum. You can very much be a liberal libertarian, same way you could be a conservative libertarian.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:22 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:Didn't know Penn was a libertarian. This threatens my theory that in order to become famous you need to be mindless enough to appeal to the masses.


Isn't Jesse Ventura a Libertarian?

I think you're just proving libertarians are mindless enough to appeal to the masses. :P


My ass is more of a libertarian than Jesse Ventura. Look, Bill Maher from Politically Incorrect calls himself a Libertarian and he's as liberal as they come. For a while it was the trendy thing to do. What I read from that article that Penn wrote were true Libertarian sentiments.


*comfort*
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:24 pm

You cannot be a libertarian that advocates big government. Bill Maher clearly advocates increased intrusion of government into areas traditionally considered outside the scope of regulation. He also considers himself a Libertarian. Unfortunately, he isn't one.

There is some truth though in your point. Many liberal social positions fall within libertarianism. Typically, in situations where the liberal is arguing against increased government regulation, such as freedom to have abortions or drug legalization. However, such a person might hold one position that is consistent with Libertarianism, and then on the other hand argue in favor of something like universal healthcare, and disqualify themself from being considered a Libertarian.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:42 pm

Corth wrote:You cannot be a libertarian that advocates big government. Bill Maher clearly advocates increased intrusion of government into areas traditionally considered outside the scope of regulation. He also considers himself a Libertarian. Unfortunately, he isn't one.

There is some truth though in your point. Many liberal social positions fall within libertarianism. Typically, in situations where the liberal is arguing against increased government regulation, such as freedom to have abortions or drug legalization. However, such a person might hold one position that is consistent with Libertarianism, and then on the other hand argue in favor of something like universal healthcare, and disqualify themself from being considered a Libertarian.


Because God forbid anyone have ideas that fit outside the party lines!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:12 pm

I wasn't passing judgment on Bill Maher or anyone else who agrees with such aspects of libertarianism and not with others. I'm just saying such people are NOT libertarians.

There is debate among Libertarian scholars about certain issues.. Like for instance whether its permissible for government to control the police force or whether, on the other hand, policing should be a private industry. However, nobody who advocates big government positions like universal healthcare can ever be considered a libertarian, regardless of whether they agree with certain aspects.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:16 pm

Corth wrote:There is some truth though in your point. Many liberal social positions fall within libertarianism. Typically, in situations where the liberal is arguing against increased government regulation, such as freedom to have abortions or drug legalization. However, such a person might hold one position that is consistent with Libertarianism, and then on the other hand argue in favor of something like universal healthcare, and disqualify themself from being considered a Libertarian.

Come on Corth, you know the answer to this :P

Politics is a spectrum. On one side of this axis is libertarianism, and authoritarianism is on the other side. Everyone falls somewhere in between. Hell, even the Libertarian Party doesn't fall at the far fringes of the spectrum, because libertarian extremism isn't practical. So the fact that Bill Maher takes a stance on universal healthcare that supports the authoritarian perspective doesn't mean he isn't a libertarian, it just means he isn't an extremist :P

However, nobody who advocates big government positions like universal healthcare can ever be considered a libertarian, regardless of whether they agree with certain aspects.

That's like saying that nobody who supports abortion could ever be considered a conservative. It's just one issue among many.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:30 pm

Conservative and liberal are opposite ends of a political spectrum. Libertarianism is a political philsophy. Saying a libertarian can support universal healthcare is like saying that a communist supports private ownership of the means of production. It is completely antithetical to the philosophical system.

I'm interested in Kifle's thoughts on this.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:36 pm

Corth, if Jesse Maher (names combined to create a fictional Libertarian) supported every single item of the Libertarian party platform, EXCEPT that he thought universal healthcare was a good idea... you'd consider him to not be a Libertarian?

Does that _really_ make sense to you? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

A good idea is a good idea, and frankly party affiliation shouldn't dictate which ideas you subscribe to.
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Thu Sep 04, 2008 3:54 pm

Well, you would have to admit that Sarah Palin delivered a flawless speech. The speech itself was pretty pathetic though. I guess I mean the content, or glaring lack thereof. It was as if she were a doll with the string in her back set to deliver meaty one-liners to the ravenous repub delegates. "Drill baby drill"???? For real?

And honestly, mocking Obama is going to backfire with the key voters that could win this election. The superficial rhetoric was that they want change...they want to shake up Washington (wtf? over?)...they want to work for the American people...but the message was, we're taking a stance as a divided country...conservatives are right and democrats are wrong. The speech smacked so hard of the frightening 'us versus them' mentality that it gave me chills.

Lots of crazy hypocrisy too. Obama is all style and no substance...then deliver a speech of all stylistic rhetoric and no substance. Obama is a messiah...then stake claim to the moral high ground and sacred righteousness. We respect the little guy that works hard, the union worker, the blue collar...then mock Obama for working as a community organizer in impoverished neighborhoods, predominantly made up of religious union workers. Big government is bad, personal responsibility is good...but parents of special needs children...I'll have money for you. The classic Bridge to Nowhere line, "Thanks, but no thanks....except when I realize I can make a political statement out of it."

I am definitely coming around to the 'high stakes gamble' theory which, if by some hail mary miracle, worked, would actually be political mastery. The "maverick" is attempting to brazenly polarize the country back in to the 50/50 party boxes so he can narrow the election down to a handful of swing states. Its truly embarrassing. From the man that so famously said, "I'd rather lose an election than lose a war," we now apparently have "I'd rather hamstring my country and divide the nation than lose an election."

The thing that strikes me more than anything else though, is that this speech reminded me exactly what is at stake here. This is hope versus hopelessness. Call that idealism and naivete, and honestly...part of me actually hates you for it. If the blowhards and ladder climbers that want to rule the country through an oligarchy really understood how much some of us "liberals" love this country they would be ashamed of themselves. I want a country united, not divided. I want to appreciate and respect those of you that hold different views than me, not to feel like you're my enemy.

I honestly believe that Palin gave an outstanding speech, she deserves a lot of credit regardless of her credentials. I also believe that she is caught up in something much, much bigger than herself. This manchurian candidate stuff scares the crap out of me and that speech last night was a prime example of the fear-mongering that has sadly gripped our country for too long now.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:04 pm

Sarvis wrote:Corth, if Jesse Maher (names combined to create a fictional Libertarian) supported every single item of the Libertarian party platform, EXCEPT that he thought universal healthcare was a good idea... you'd consider him to not be a Libertarian?

Does that _really_ make sense to you? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

A good idea is a good idea, and frankly party affiliation shouldn't dictate which ideas you subscribe to.


Yes, I wouldn't consider him a libertarian. Its oil and vinegar. You cannot be considered an adherent to a philosophy of MINIMAL government intrusion while also advocating a policy of overreaching government.
Last edited by Corth on Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:06 pm

Interesting sentiments Avak. Its the same way I felt when John Edwards used to talk about "two americas". That was certainly an example of cynical political polarization.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:30 pm

Avak: Nice post.

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Corth, if Jesse Maher (names combined to create a fictional Libertarian) supported every single item of the Libertarian party platform, EXCEPT that he thought universal healthcare was a good idea... you'd consider him to not be a Libertarian?

Does that _really_ make sense to you? Because that's what you seem to be saying.

A good idea is a good idea, and frankly party affiliation shouldn't dictate which ideas you subscribe to.


Yes, I wouldn't consider him a libertarian. Its oil and vinegar. You cannot be considered an adherent to a philosophy of MINIMAL government intrusion while also advocating a policy of overreaching government.



Well, at least you're proving the primary requirement for being a Libertarian is a touch of insanity! ;)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 4:40 pm

Ambar wrote:I needed the giggle, thanks :)

So every teen that ends up pregnant is the product of bad parenting?

Werd :)



Well, according to Bill O'Reilly... or maybe that only counts for Democratic mothers: http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index ... ender-card


Lathander and Teffie should watch that too, some nice bits in there about the "sexism" of us dirty liberals.


I'm beginning to think The Daily Show is the best defense we have against Republicans actually becoming Big Brother.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:15 pm

I guess a lot of people found out about Palin and Giuliani's rips on community organizing last night.

Roland Martin on CNN: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_X94Htpht4

Illdoc on Youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAc0OmQ1PpY

Today's Gallup:

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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:25 pm

http://lonecellotheory.livejournal.com/416660.html

God, you've got to watch this one. Daily Show, comparing Bill O'Reilly talking about Palin (pregnant daughter is a private concern) to Jaime Lynn Spears (responsibility for the pregnant daughter falls "squarely on the parents"). Simply priceless.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:37 pm

I just linked that...
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:29 pm

Sarvis wrote:I just linked that...

Oops, had the reply window open while I did some actual work, and didn't see your reply until after I posted.

WATCH IT TWICE
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Re: VP picks

Postby Botef » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:55 pm

Ben Stein weighs in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OevzQ9XGd7Q


Conservatives Noonan and Murphey's off-air comments on Palin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrG8w4bb3kg
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:04 pm

Clearly Ben Stein is a sexist!

Is it just me or does he sound weird when he's actually trying to have emotion in his voice? Monotone works better for him...
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:39 pm

Corth wrote:Conservative and liberal are opposite ends of a political spectrum. Libertarianism is a political philsophy. Saying a libertarian can support universal healthcare is like saying that a communist supports private ownership of the means of production. It is completely antithetical to the philosophical system.

I'm interested in Kifle's thoughts on this.


Going to have to side with Corth on this one. Libertarianism is a school of political philosophy that, at its root, demands certain ideologies -- mainly concerning government intrusion. It is much different than, say, arbitrary labels (usually slanderous) tossed around to group people -- such as liberal, conservative, etc. While all of these terms are bandied about in the political forum, they are of two different origins. Think of these two comparisions: short/tall, desk/house. Conservative/liberal is analogous to short/tall insofar as there is no set dependance; therefore, they are relative terms. However, in the case of desk/house, there are certain general properties that they must have in order to be a desk or a house. Just as libertarian, communist, democrat (true democrat/republic ideologies rather than the terms that have mutated from them), etc. all have general principles that must be present in order to be one or the other.

So, just as we can not call a house a desk -- even if they closely resemble each other in materials, shape, etc.; we can not call a federalist a libertarian and we certainly can't call a socialist a libertarian. It would be like calling Maher a house because he's wearing a roof on his head. The point is, libertarianism is a pure notion which has a base set of ideologies that must be adhered to in order to call oneself a libertarian and retaining any of its intended meaning. If we allow socialist libertarians, neither idea is meaningful... this is how language morphs over time and from democrocy and republic we get democrat and republican -- two instances of meanings that have been perverted into words that bare no resemblance to their parents.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Thu Sep 04, 2008 8:45 pm

So if you subscribe to an ideology you must adhere to every single idea of that ideology? There's no room for other thoughts? ARe you abdicating free will to the ideology?

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. People are people; they are allowed, and should be encouraged, to think for themselves rather than follow the script. You're essentially asking for your leaders to be sheep, following some party platform hammered out decades ago. If an idea makes sense, but goes counter to the Party Platform you're going to denounce him for doing the sensible thing?

And we wonder why Party is so divisive in this country...



EDIT: As Rags said, the political spectrum is a range. I doubt there is any such thing as a pure Libertarian... except on the Series of Tubes, anyway.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Vaprak » Fri Sep 05, 2008 12:42 am

A joke, MN style:

The Presidential election was too close to call. Neither the Republican candidate nor the Democratic candidate had enough votes to win. There was much talk about ballot recounting, court challenges, etc., but a week-long ice fishing competition seemed the sportsmanlike way to settle things.

The candidate that caught the most fish at the end of the week would win the election. Therefore, it was decided that there should be an ice fishing contest between the two candidates to determine the winner.

After much of back and forth discussion, it was decided that the contest take place on a remote frozen lake in northern Minnesota .

There were to be no observers present, and both men were to be sent out separately on this isolated lake and return at 5 P.M. with their catch for counting and verification by a team of neutral parties. At the end of the first day, John Mc. returned to the starting line and he had ten fish.

Soon, Obama returned and had no fish. Well, everyone assumed he was just having another 'bad hair' day or something and hopefully, he would catch up the next day.

At the end of the 2nd day John Mc. came in with 20 fish and Obama came in again with none.

That evening, Harry Reid got together secretly with Obama and said, 'Obama, I think John Mc. is a low-life, cheatin' son-of-a-gun. I want you to go out tomorrow and don't even bother with fishing. Just spy on him and see just how he is cheating.'

The next night (after John Mc. returns with 50 fish), Harry said to Obama, 'Well, tell me, how is John Mc. cheating?'

Obama replied, 'Harry, you're not going to believe this, but he's cutting holes in the ice.'
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:11 am

Sarvis wrote:So if you subscribe to an ideology you must adhere to every single idea of that ideology? There's no room for other thoughts? ARe you abdicating free will to the ideology?

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. People are people; they are allowed, and should be encouraged, to think for themselves rather than follow the script. You're essentially asking for your leaders to be sheep, following some party platform hammered out decades ago. If an idea makes sense, but goes counter to the Party Platform you're going to denounce him for doing the sensible thing?

And we wonder why Party is so divisive in this country...



EDIT: As Rags said, the political spectrum is a range. I doubt there is any such thing as a pure Libertarian... except on the Series of Tubes, anyway.


You're basically saying, "Look, if I want to classify myself as a dog, I should have the right to" -- which is just stupid. We, as humans, categorize things. I am a mammal -- specifically a human. Whether I believe I am an egg or not, means absolutely nothing as I am still a human. When you allow the categories to bleed, the categories, and the act of categorizing, become meaningless. I'm not saying that someone who adheres to socialist doctrines can't also agree with a libertarian on certain issues; however, when they do agree, that does not make them a libertarian -- or vice versa. Sure, at the end of the day, Maher can call himself whatever he wants, but it will never change the fact that he is not a libertarian. He's a person with certain views that lean towards the libertarian ideology. Because a Jew believes in God, does that mean he can call himself a Christian if he still does not believe in Christ? No, no he can't. In the same manner that a man who believes in every precept of Islam, yet does not believe Muhammad was a prophet can not call himself a muslim. The point is, in every ideology, be it political, religious or otherwise, there are certain ideas which must remain sacred; and, if those ideas are not believed in by the person, that person can not, in good conscience or realistically, call themselves a follower of said ideology. In Judaism, the belief that Christ was not the Messiah (in Christian terms) is a separating and necessary belief. In Islam, Muhammad being a prophet is a central and necessary belief -- without it, it is not Islam. In libertarianism, the belief in minimal government is a necessary and central belief; without this belief, the ideology ceases to be libertarianism. Otherwise, I could go around saying I'm a vegetarian nazi, Israel sympathizer who eats a shit-ton of beef.

In short, think wtf ever you want to think, but don't tout yourself as something you're not. It belittles the ideology and the followers of that ideology -- as well as making the person look retarded because they forgot to look the word up in the dictionary. Also, free thought and subscribing to certain points of an ideology and being an adherent to an ideology are two very, very different things. I support both, but allowing those lines to bleed is a mockery of classification and language.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:28 am

Kifle wrote:You're basically saying, "Look, if I want to classify myself as a dog, I should have the right to" -- which is just stupid.


No, not at all. We're basically talking about something walking all fours, with fur that barks but is missing a tail. Maybe it had a habit of sleeping in driveways or something...

We, as humans, categorize things. I am a mammal -- specifically a human. Whether I believe I am an egg or not, means absolutely nothing as I am still a human.


What if you're black? Or brown? Used to be enough to disqualify a person from being human. Sometimes categories ARE too strict, and unfairly so.

Remember Corth disqualified Jesse Maher based on one single issue. If he abolished the government except for universal healthcare that's not Libertarian? What about defense? Most Libertarians allow national defense as a legitimate purpose of government. So there's CLEARLY room in the ideology for government programs.

All you've done is take the issue du jour and decided that's not Libertarian, regardless of the persons other beliefs or primary stances... which is not all that different from saying you're not human if you're not blond haired and blue eyed.

Yeah, that's right... I just Godwinned it. :P
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Fri Sep 05, 2008 1:41 pm

Welp, good thread everybody.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:12 pm

Yeah, done here as well. Sarvis, you need to get over your inability to get outside of your own perceptions. You've taken my examples and shifted them into something they are not, nor were they ever. You are arguing accidental properties which, by name, are accidental. They are not necessary properties. Black (color) is an accidental property of human. Thing with fur, four legs, w/o a tail is also full of properties which confuses the matter furthur. Tail is an accidental and doesn't distinguish a dog from other genus'. There are species of dogs which are bread to be tailless. Let me know when you find a way to make somebody who actively disbelieves in the existance (ever) of Christ who is actually a Christian.

Anyway, semantical arguing for the sake of arguing is not only inconsequential to the debate, but it is also counterproductive. Believe what you want to believe, but when you misuse terms around people educated in that specific area, be prepared to look the fool.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:16 pm

Kifle wrote:Anyway, semantical arguing for the sake of arguing is not only inconsequential to the debate, but it is also counterproductive.


More or less counterproductive than forcing leaders to follow a script written by the party rather than encouraging them to do what they think is right?


EDIT: I mean really? Bitching and moaning that Libertarians can't get anywhere, that no one votes for them, that the third parties are powerless... then when a Libertarian DOES get elected you denounce him as not being Libertarian enough? Please.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:35 pm

Sarvis,

I don't think anybody is saying that its better or worse to adhere to an ideology. Nobody is passing judgment. Its just that you cannot call someone a communist if they believe in private property, and you can't call someone a libertarian if they advocate expanding the role of government. There is room for debate within an ideology itself (for instance, within libertarianism, the debate between the minimal state and ultra-minimal state), but at some point a position is so antithetical to the underlying ideology that you cannot say that such a person advocating the position actually adheres to that ideology. You can be a conservative that is in favor of legalizing drugs, or a liberal that is pro-life.. those terms, as Ragorn pointed out, do not necessarily describe an ideology.. rather a spectrum. However, you cannot be a Libertarian and advocate universal socialized healthcare, or a communist advocating for extensive private property rights.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 05, 2008 3:49 pm

You're picking and choosing Corth. To interpret Liberal ideology as strictly as you are Libertarianism you could NOT have a liberal who is pro-life. By definition Liberals do not want morality legislated, and pro-life is exactly that.

Of course I'm sure there are Liberals who are pro-life, which is why such strict interpretations break down quickly. The simple truth is that NO ONE is likely to fit so well into a mold that they could be considered anything by your rationale.

If I remember correctly Corth, you actually think society should constrain the free market in certain areas. Doesn't that mean you aren't a Libertarian? How can you be more of one than Jesse Maher, which it's so binary a definition?



By the way, I think Ron Paul showed us why "real" Libertarians will never get anywhere in this country last night on the Daily Show. He claimed the government shouldn't be helping victims of floods or natural disasters because they might kick someone off their own property.

Because, yeah... it's GOOD to let hundreds of people die rather than walk across someone's land. :roll:
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:23 pm

I think the distinction, Sarvis, is that liberal and conservative are not ideologies per se. They are opposite sides of a broad political spectrum. People can fall generally on a certain side of the spectrum, but on specific subjects they will often advocate positions all over the spectrum. For instance, a libertarian may be on the conservative side of the spectrum when it comes to free trade, and on the liberal side of the spectrum when it comes to social issues such as gay rights, abortion, etc. That would be a good way to describe my own politics.

On the other hand, Libertarian, Communist, Socialist, etc.. those are ideologies. There is a certain philosophical idea behind the policies these people espouse. A libertarian consistently wants a small government with very specific and limited responsibilities. Its possible for two libertarians to disagree on the extent of government programs. But the disagreement is between small government or smaller government. As you mentioned, I believe in minimal regulation of free markets. Other libertarians might disagree and say that no regulation is acceptable. This is a debate, for sure, but its a debate within the confines of the underlying philosophical idea behind libertarianism.

A libertarian who is in favor of a large governmental program such as socialized health care is not a libertarian at all. Its someone who perhaps agrees with the libertarians on some issues, and not on others. Thats perfectly fine.. for the sake of this discussion I'm not passing judgment. There is certainly room for another debate on the merits of holding firm to a particular ideology as opposed to a more pragmatic approach.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:22 pm

For what it's worth, I believe that libertarianism-authoritarianism is a spectrum, same way liberal-conservative is. I'm not going to continue to argue the point, because I think that's worthless. However, I think that someone who supports healthcare, but who opposes tax increases, social security, welfare, and a military draft could definitely be considered (at least somewhat) libertarian.

It's not a boolean term.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Fri Sep 05, 2008 5:48 pm

Corth wrote:I think the distinction, Sarvis, is that liberal and conservative are not ideologies per se. They are opposite sides of a broad political spectrum. People can fall generally on a certain side of the spectrum, but on specific subjects they will often advocate positions all over the spectrum. For instance, a libertarian may be on the conservative side of the spectrum when it comes to free trade, and on the liberal side of the spectrum when it comes to social issues such as gay rights, abortion, etc. That would be a good way to describe my own politics.

On the other hand, Libertarian, Communist, Socialist, etc.. those are ideologies. There is a certain philosophical idea behind the policies these people espouse. A libertarian consistently wants a small government with very specific and limited responsibilities. Its possible for two libertarians to disagree on the extent of government programs. But the disagreement is between small government or smaller government. As you mentioned, I believe in minimal regulation of free markets. Other libertarians might disagree and say that no regulation is acceptable. This is a debate, for sure, but its a debate within the confines of the underlying philosophical idea behind libertarianism.

A libertarian who is in favor of a large governmental program such as socialized health care is not a libertarian at all. Its someone who perhaps agrees with the libertarians on some issues, and not on others. Thats perfectly fine.. for the sake of this discussion I'm not passing judgment. There is certainly room for another debate on the merits of holding firm to a particular ideology as opposed to a more pragmatic approach.


So it depends on how large the program is? Do you realize how subjective that is? Would Universal Healthcare for just southern states be "small enough?" Or how about just the east coast? Just Washington, D.C.?

What if he was an advocate of just a single payer system, where the government kept out of it as far as regulation was concerned but signed the checks in order to take care of the populace?

Can you argue that the government wouldn't be small if it's only function were to handle healthcare? If Jesse Maher, who believes in every Libertarian ideal but thinks universal healthcare was a good idea, cut every single government program then implemented UH would government not be smaller? Or just not small enough?

I guess we don't need to continue this... but it seems like you're undercutting yourself. As I said earlier, Libertarians have had a limited measure of success. Why not promote that and try to move forward more towards your ideal, rather than discount people who don't fit your mold perfectly? Especially considering you don't fit your mold perfectly, either.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:52 am

September 5/6, 2008 Zogby poll. McCain/Palin 49.7% Obama/Biden 45.9%
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.dbm?ID=1548


Gallup confirms:

Image
http://www.gallup.com/poll/110050/Gallu ... 48-45.aspx

Rasmussen has the popular vote even but Obama leading in electoral votes:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_ ... cking_poll

So much for McCain's "disasterous" pick. Granted these poll numbers will jump all over the place between now and election day. The fact that its even close given the unpopularity of the current Republican administration is a testament to the fact that Obama is not a particularly good candidate.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 08, 2008 3:19 pm

Looking at these poles makes me sad to be a human.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 08, 2008 4:09 pm

Corth wrote:So much for McCain's "disasterous" pick. Granted these poll numbers will jump all over the place between now and election day. The fact that its even close given the unpopularity of the current Republican administration is a testament to the fact that Obama is not a particularly good candidate.

Yeah, there's a lot of interesting political undercurrent in this election. I don't know many people, Republicans included, who believe that McCain is a particularly good candidate either. I wonder if this is another "lesser of two evils" election for a lot of people.

As for McCain's VP, she's a walking trainwreck. Can't wait for the debates, when she tells the country that their sons are dying in Iraq because of God's will. Should be interesting :)
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:48 pm

<3 RNC '08. Obama's Intrade price cannot possibly be any more artificially deflated. I'm going to buy a nice chunk today (funded by the exploits of this weekend).
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:54 pm

Intrade price?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:07 pm

Sarvis wrote:Intrade price?


Image

http://www.intrade.com

Contracts trade from 0-100 at $0.10 a point. So here, you can buy an Obama contract for $5.46 each (Obama trading at 54.6%), and then when he wins the election, you make $4.54 per contract, with a $0.10 commission.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Mon Sep 08, 2008 7:43 pm

Soo.... it's gambling on the Presidential election?

EDIT: Ok, I poked at the site a bit... interesting.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:56 pm

Sarvis wrote:Soo.... it's gambling on the Presidential election?

EDIT: Ok, I poked at the site a bit... interesting.


Or anything you want, really. They have odds on:

-USA/Israel airstriking Iran by 12/31/08
-The Dow ending above/below 11/12/13/14K
-The average price of gas being below/above $4 in America

etc etc
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Re: VP picks

Postby kiryan » Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:51 pm

To selectively believe parts of any doctrine and to identify yourself as a member of said doctrine is commonplace whether its libertarian, christian or open minded. Is it wrong, depends on whether you are trying to communicate or grade a test. Given the widespread usage, its probably acceptable communication even if its arguably wrong. If I say I'm a libertarian, you have a pretty good idea of what I believe even if I do believe that there should be some laws on behavior.

The Pallin pick was unconventional and brilliant. I'm not thrilled about McCain, I like a lot of things about Obama. I identify with Pallin, an actual conservative. The shift in the debate will be regrettable. The Pallin pick will certainly dumb down this election.

Between Pallin and McCain, I believe change will happen, probably not all the way I want it with McCain in charge. With Obama the only change I can see is that the other half of our historically crappy government will get to enrich themselves with our taxes. What exactly has Obama done to promote change other than talk?

The saddest thing of all is how the conservatives and republicans are in wholesale sell out mode just to win probably the most important election in our time depending on which supreme court justices die/retire. I expect a fundamental disillusionment within the Republican ranks during the next decade. I think they are going to have to reinvent themselves.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:20 am

I agree Kiryan. This election is all about the future of the Supreme Court. Which is actually a pretty severe indictment of the court. It was never intended to have so much essentially legislative power.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:55 am

Corth,

Thanks for posting that latest poll. BTW Kifle, it's "poll" not "pole".

Americans are smart enough to see that Obama is wrong for America and by Change, we want positive change for the country. With Obama, all we'll have is change left in our pockets after taxes. In the end, Americans get it right!
Last edited by Lathander on Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Tue Sep 09, 2008 12:58 am

Here's part of an interview with ABC by Obama. Very interesting!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qotHTtr ... re=related

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