VP picks

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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:06 am

Image

A demonstrator holds up a sign behind U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson (L) and Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke (R) during a hearing before the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee September 23, 2008 on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. The Bush administration officials were testifying about a proposed $700 billion bailout that they hope will stabilize the faltering U.S. financial system. (Getty | Chip Somodevilla)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Wed Sep 24, 2008 4:38 am

Corth wrote:Image

A demonstrator holds up a sign behind U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson (L) and Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke (R) during a hearing before the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee September 23, 2008 on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. The Bush administration officials were testifying about a proposed $700 billion bailout that they hope will stabilize the faltering U.S. financial system. (Getty | Chip Somodevilla)


I just received this email. I fear it may be a scam : (

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YOURS FAITHFULLY MINISTER OF TREASURY PAULSON
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Re: VP picks

Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Sep 26, 2008 7:29 pm

Image

Image
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Re: VP picks

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Sep 26, 2008 8:44 pm

so i heard ole paulin speak for the first time........................................
just dont know what the hell to say about that one she sure seems like a......well ditz to me if McCain gets elected lets hope that nothing bad happens to him otherwise america....your in a world of trouble.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Sat Sep 27, 2008 12:05 am

You guys see the Letterman thing?

Lordy.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Sat Sep 27, 2008 9:17 am

amena wolfsnarl wrote:so i heard ole paulin speak for the first time........................................
just dont know what the hell to say about that one she sure seems like a......well ditz to me if McCain gets elected lets hope that nothing bad happens to him otherwise america....your in a world of trouble.


As opposed to the awesome shape the country's in now? Hell, McCain will be just as bad in office as Palin would be after he dies.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:You guys see the Letterman thing?

Lordy.



What Letterman thing?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Sat Sep 27, 2008 5:02 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ragorn wrote:You guys see the Letterman thing?

Lordy.



What Letterman thing?


I'm guessing when Letterman went off all night about how McCain bailed out on him at the last minute to "fly to Washington to fix the Crisis" only to show up on a CBS interview like 10 minutes later -- not in Washington. It was quite hilarious.
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:41 pm

Did you watch the Couric interview of Palin?

Obama is a brilliant strategist. On Face the Nation he was directly asked about Palin's experience and he won't say a word. "That's going to have to be up to the public," is about all he'll say. Legitimize her as a politician, take her from the PTA hockey mom mystique, and then let her hang herself with her own rope. Biden is going to have to practice not giggling in preparation for the debates on Thursday. Anyone want to list the high level Republicans that are calling for Palin to step down? Look at the polling averages and you can see the Palin 'bump' post-RNC and now we're back in solid Obama territory....where it will stay barring a major event.

Face it, McCain is not even in the same league as Obama and it will just become more and more apparent as we get closer to Nov 4. Backing out on the first debate??? Could you set up an Obama slam dunk any more perfectly? I'll guarantee you that McCain did that unilaterally in a lame attempt to look serious. All of the sudden, Obama makes him look like a flip flopping mental midget that can't multitask on big issues. Not to mention that the inside word on McCain at the negotiation tables were unflattering at best.

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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:21 pm

In the past couple days/weeks, I think the experience issue has gelled a bit for the public.

Obama's lack of executive experience has been a major talking point for the right since the inception of the campaign. However, it's always been a bit of a theoretical demonstration; even Republicans will admit that Obama is eloquent and that he generally voices his stance on most issues rather than hiding behind ambiguity. Their attacks have come from the realm of possibility... how will Obama react if Iran goes nuclear, or will he be able to stand up to Russia, or will he choke if Pakistan turns hostile. They hold up these potential scenarios as a basis for their concern.

The issue of Palin's experience is a lot more tangible. She's spoken to the media on only a couple occasions, and most times, she fails to drive her points across. A common criticism I've heard is that she has trouble deviating from her pre-written talking points when asked follow-up questions. The Couric interview is a good example of that; she repeated at least three times that McCain favored increased banking regulation in Congress, but she was unable to produce an example of that stance when asked. I think Palin's lack of experience is much more visible... and I think the McCain campaign knows it, which is why they're hiding Palin from the media as much as possible.

Yes, Sarah Palin is running for a less visible position than Barack Obama. But I don't think it's unreasonable to expect my Vice President to be able to answer questions for the media without having to punt them.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:18 am

Corth wrote:Image

A demonstrator holds up a sign behind U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson (L) and Federal Reserve Board Chairman Ben Bernanke (R) during a hearing before the Senate Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs Committee September 23, 2008 on Capitol Hill in Washington, DC. The Bush administration officials were testifying about a proposed $700 billion bailout that they hope will stabilize the faltering U.S. financial system. (Getty | Chip Somodevilla)


Epic failure
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:19 am

The next president is going to get well more than he bargained for.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue Sep 30, 2008 4:27 pm

Yeah i almost feel sorry for the sucker whos gonna step into the oval office next. I mean first hes got to get the smell of G.W. outta there and than have to deal with this whole shit show thats goin on right now. Lets face it not a great way to start out your presidency
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:23 pm

I agree that Obama is going to inherit a pretty big fiasco come January. However, in a strange way, this is like the economic 9/11 and with that comes great opportunity to make change. Its been so long since we've had actual leadership from the White House that we almost just expect a lame non-response like Bush gave for the financial crisis. Given the fact that I believe America is a declining superpower, perhaps this is the opportunity we need.

btw, Obama up in every poll real clear politics tracks. RCP average has Obama up 5.1% or 48/43

I'm -sure- the VP debates will help McCain
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Re: VP picks

Postby Vaprak » Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:40 pm

avak wrote: (SNIP) However, in a strange way, this is like the economic 9/11 and with that comes great opportunity to make change. (SNIP)


Awesome! Maybe congress and the new president will see fit to pass some new Patriot Financial Act soon to protect us from financial terrorists. We can start a War on Free Markets to go with the other un-winnable conflicts that have no chance of ever suceeding such as our War on Terror, War on Drugs, and War on Poverty.

The only way I'll get behind a complete bailout by the government is if the bill is written by a committe consisting approximately 10 people such as: Warren Buffet, Steve Forbes, Edward Prescott, John Galbraith, Joseph Stiglitz, and the like.

Too many things were allowed to become intermingled and interconnected. A bailout will not fix that interconnection, which is the root of the problem (beyond the "mortage crisis"). A complete crash of the financial markets wouldn't/won't be pretty or very much fun, but I think it's the only way to get back to ground zero and fix things. At least if the whole thing crashes we'll know what everything is worth...next to nothing. The only real advantage of a government bailout is that everyone finally knows what the value of this paper is. The problem is that it will still be an artificial value.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:13 am

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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:32 am

It was a credit bubble. Subprime borrowers were simply the first of many to default. Subprime loans only represented a small portion of the excess credit. FDR's 'New Deal' is more at fault than Carter's CRA and Clinton's expansion of same.

Of course government reacts to the predictable and normal deflation of overpriced asset values by trying to reinflate the bubble and get the credit flowing again. It will never work. The bubble economy is done in this country for the foreseeable future. The bailout plan would just be an egregious waste of taxpayer dollars at exactly the wrong time.

I'll make a youtube contribution too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zPHUtFxaJ8M
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:53 am

Ah, with Avak's comment, I have my loser, defeatist comment for the day. Don't know what I would have done without it!
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Re: VP picks

Postby Lathander » Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:55 am

Corth, we should start another thread for the financial crisis. I'll have to disagree with you that we can't implement things to make things better for the country. Of course, this doesn't include the really stupid liberal idea of raising taxes. Just ask Hoover how that worked out...
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:11 am

Yeah I agree, it deserves another thread.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 01, 2008 4:22 am

Yeah, I'm curious to see Lathander explain how we can get out of this by cutting taxes for the rich and deregulating big business some more.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:55 am

Ragorn wrote:Yeah, I'm curious to see Lathander explain how we can get out of this by cutting taxes for the rich and deregulating big business some more.


Duh, did you forget the free-market mantra already? Also, trickle-down has worked for the last 6 or so years; why would it stop working now?
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Re: VP picks

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Oct 05, 2008 8:53 pm

Kifle wrote:
Ragorn wrote:Yeah, I'm curious to see Lathander explain how we can get out of this by cutting taxes for the rich and deregulating big business some more.


Duh, did you forget the free-market mantra already? Also, trickle-down has worked for the last 6 or so years; why would it stop working now?


Is it odd that I'm the only person that can see that even with a downturn, the US still is the largest and capable economic powerhouse in the world?
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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:11 pm

I'm relishing in the failure of McCain/Palin. I readily admit it.

I'm laughing to myself about the people that thought Palin was political mastery and not just a last ditch, panicky attempt to retreat to the tired Roveian politics of old. We rationalized Kerry, so don't take it personally.

I think the pundits that are talking about skewed polls and the Bradley effect are running out of controversy in the imminent face of a landslide. I think they're digging out the racists and the bigots and the haters to create something to fill the 24-hr news reels.

McCain's performance last night was desperate and angry. He looks like a cornered beast that is oscillating between intense fear and fury. In what is being touted as his best performance, McCain can't even touch Obama. He can't get under his skin, touch a nerve, find a weakness, make him stumble...the guy is rock fn solid. Meanwhile, McCain looks like he is seeing red and his phoney laugh makes him sound psychotic....no exaggeration. My employees, many of whom are college students, are consistently saying things like, 'McCain just wants to kill someone.' It's the economy, stupid.

Anyway, purge the hillbilly racist haters from the Republican party and maybe we can have a somewhat unified country?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Fri Oct 17, 2008 10:41 am

avak wrote:Anyway, purge the hillbilly racist haters from the Republican party and maybe we can have a somewhat unified country?


Amen to that. But you can't forget the religious zealots who want to basically take away religious freedom.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:24 am

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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:46 am

Thats hilarious. They must be getting all their news at fark.com with Sarvis. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby avak » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:16 am

Would it really, really be too much to ask for a basic competency test for voting? Nothing extreme, just stuff like, do you actually know who you are voting for?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Corth » Sat Oct 18, 2008 2:27 am

That would cost the democrats a lot of votes!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Sat Oct 18, 2008 5:28 am

Corth wrote:That would cost the democrats a lot of votes!

www.isbarackobamaamuslim.com

Required reading for all Republican voters.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Sat Oct 18, 2008 7:30 am

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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:27 pm

Seems like the Powell endorsement is starting a ripple-effect. Obama is going to win in a landslide.
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Re: VP picks

Postby kiryan » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:10 pm

You guys are going to wish you had voted for that idiot Huckabee after 8 years of the Democrats taxing you to expand government all in the name of saving the environment, the poor and everyone who is not white. America will be destroyed and it will be fast. We are ushering in a new age of protectionism and wage inflation that will result in more of us being defacto minimum wage workers and our multinational corporations will move to a more friendly environment. $30 an hour will be the effective minimum wage in 8 years.

I hope Barack can rose to and meet the expectations that have been heaped upon him from everyone who wants "change." I hope he can be a bipartisan force instead of continuing to push far left. I would vote for him today (I have my ballot already) if I believed he could live up to those expecations, but I don't.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Sarvis » Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:18 pm

Yep, those evil liberals will surely destroy the country! The only hope is to stay the course with the conservative policies which have gotten us where we are today!

Oh... wait...
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 21, 2008 2:04 am

kiryan wrote:You guys are going to wish you had voted for that idiot Huckabee after 8 years of the Democrats taxing you to expand government all in the name of saving the environment, the poor and everyone who is not white.


You have some issues, Mr. Limbaugh. Even if you're deluded conspiracies do come true, it will be nice change from the Republicans taxing me to kill Iraqis for their oil, rape the environment with no interest in looking beyond their own short lifetimes, make the rich richer at the expense of not only our economy, but the global economy as well, and help only those who are white.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:56 am

kiryan wrote:I hope he can be a bipartisan force instead of continuing to push far left. I would vote for him today (I have my ballot already) if I believed he could live up to those expecations, but I don't.

Well, that's because you're basically just making shit up at this point.
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Re: VP picks

Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 21, 2008 7:02 pm

Look at his voting record. Its way left of Clinton who moved to the center over the past few years to prepare for a presidential bid.

"we're going to bring manufacturing back to this country (specifically auto)". hows that going to happen? import tarifs which then will be reciprocated and retaliated against or do you think other countries are going to leave their markets open while we close ours?

"the middle class are union workers and we're going to save them." see above. How are our union industries doing... unable to compete except as a monopoly? They won't save the middle class they will destroy it by destroying the jobs with a business unfriendly environment.

Does anyone remember Microsoft and anti trust under Clinton? They're lucky Bush won. The irony is that its actually a company that has made hundreds of millionaires in addition to the opportunities that other US based companies have grown business around... but who tried to break it up and destroy it?

"we're going to close the achievement gap in education (by spending billions)." I agree with this, but I still don't know where we are going to get the money. At least Obama understands and is willing to talk about the other 75% of the problem which is parenting. Teachers shouldn't have to raise our kids. I cheered, however, I hate to see more money go into the public school system. Its 55% of the Oregon budget and we suck. The public school system is inefficient and wasteful and you don't put more money into something thats failing.

I'm not an Obama hater. I actually skipped work to go to an Obama rally. I listened to him speak. He's got great talking points; he is inspiring. The problem is the Democratic agenda, "pro labor" and expansive social services, will destroy this country. Where is the money going to come from? We are borrowing to pay for the wars, so if we cut the wars, we still don't have any money. Don't even get me started on the environmental agenda and its cost.
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:35 pm

kiryan wrote:Look at his voting record. Its way left of Clinton who moved to the center over the past few years to prepare for a presidential bid.

"we're going to bring manufacturing back to this country (specifically auto)". hows that going to happen? import tarifs which then will be reciprocated and retaliated against or do you think other countries are going to leave their markets open while we close ours?

"the middle class are union workers and we're going to save them." see above. How are our union industries doing... unable to compete except as a monopoly? They won't save the middle class they will destroy it by destroying the jobs with a business unfriendly environment.

Does anyone remember Microsoft and anti trust under Clinton? They're lucky Bush won. The irony is that its actually a company that has made hundreds of millionaires in addition to the opportunities that other US based companies have grown business around... but who tried to break it up and destroy it?

"we're going to close the achievement gap in education (by spending billions)." I agree with this, but I still don't know where we are going to get the money. At least Obama understands and is willing to talk about the other 75% of the problem which is parenting. Teachers shouldn't have to raise our kids. I cheered, however, I hate to see more money go into the public school system. Its 55% of the Oregon budget and we suck. The public school system is inefficient and wasteful and you don't put more money into something thats failing.

I'm not an Obama hater. I actually skipped work to go to an Obama rally. I listened to him speak. He's got great talking points; he is inspiring. The problem is the Democratic agenda, "pro labor" and expansive social services, will destroy this country. Where is the money going to come from? We are borrowing to pay for the wars, so if we cut the wars, we still don't have any money. Don't even get me started on the environmental agenda and its cost.


You have viable arguments, but the whole "looking out for everyone who is not white" thing was just plain stupid. As for the education, I agree in part, however, stagnating public school funding (or cutting) only damages an already broken system. I do agree that dumping money into a failed system is a waste, but dumping money into a system that is also being fixed is an even better idea than not funding. To be more precise about the problem, I think it is with the teachers (especially high-school) and the cirriculum (also no child left behind fucked some things up as well). For example, in Canada, it is tougher to get into the education program than it is the law program. This weeds out many of the "teachers" that go after the job because of the vacation time or the pention. Additionally, with higher quality teachers comes higher quality students and test scores. Lastly, I think the cirriculum needs to be less Eurocentric and more globalized. It would be nice to see children become less ignorant as adults in relation to world religions, geography, politics, and economics. As it is now, the social studies cirriculum in most high schools speaks very little about these things. Additionally, I think this country and its children would benefit from having manditory secondary languages starting as early as possible. As of now, a very small percentage of the American population have the tools to survive or prosper in an increasingly global society. The patriotism mantra and majority ignorance of the world are becoming more a social crutch to this country as the years go by. Complacency and pompus attitudes are driving this country into the ground imo.

As far as unions and the auto industry, I'm on the fence about that. Indeed, what you're proposing there would lead to disaster, but by your language, you seem entirely unsure whether or not that is his actual plan. I could see government subsidizing of the auto industry way before I could see import tariffs being realized under an Obama presidency. And I don't think that is a likely plan either. Again, in this instance I see the problem as a corrupted system. I don't have much of a problem with workers making as much as some of them do (roughly 50k/yr in the ft. wayne GM plant), but the unions have become diseased by greed and power. To tell you the truth, I find most of what they do upsetting. For instance, a friend of mine was caught drinking on the job twice and both times he was only sent home. That was his only punishment. Outside of a union, that same person would be fired on the spot and quite possibly arrested (as has happend around here a few times). The reason? The company does not want to mess with the union. Fix the unions, you'll see a dramatic shift in the auto industry (pay cuts and hiring more responsible employees). The other main problem with the auto industry is lack of innovation and catering more towards certain markets. The business infrastructure, especially in the marketing departments, are running off of completely asinine schemes. Poor investments hasn't helped them either. I say let them fail, personally. Let GM go belly up like they should in a free-market economy. There is less and less incentive in this country to be good at your job rather than getting paid well for your job. You fix that, you'll fix a large portion of this economy. This is more of a cultural problem rather than a specific problem with economic, labor, and marketing theory -- even though they are still problems, they are not the source.
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kiryan
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Re: VP picks

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:22 am

umm... Democrats push for special rights which basically by definition is everyone who is not white. Whether its women, blacks, hispanics, gays whatever... special rights are by nature discriminatory and put the white male at a disadvantage. I'll stand by that claim.

I'm somewhat in agreement with your comment on teachers and qualifications.

I'm pretty much against your curriculum policy.

For now, I see no reason that Americans need to learn a second language. You don't need it domestically (or shouldn't need it) and to a large degree you don't need it internationally since its the language of science and business. If your kid wants to learn French, then you pay for it. This is coming from a guy who studied French, Spanish, Latin and Japanese in Highschool. I understand the benefit, most of which are better understanding of English, but for the masses and the tax payers its a waste of time and money.

Social studies. Another area of marginal benefit. I've spent my share of time studying foreign cultures and ancient history; I lived in Japan and Los Angeles. Why exactly does Joe the plumber we need to be informed? How does he shape foreign policy or even domestic policy? What does it matter if hes ignorant of world events? Who gives a shit what your opinion is on China? Does our strength come from knowing world geography? Does it come from cultural or religious sensitivity? These are all aspects of social engineering. When did government get the mandate to conduct social engineering and what exactly are they teaching my children?

We waste a lot of money teaching a lot of stuff. We need to focus on Math, Science, Reading and Writing. These are the skills that drive innovation. The rest of this stuff should be up to the parents to provide if you can afford it and are willing to invest the time in teaching your children. There are a few studies that say we are strong because of the diversity of our education program and point at places like Japan and Korea. Its more of the approach rather than the subject. They cram, theoretically we learn.

I think your figures for union wages are dramatically understated. They MAY take home as little as 50k, but what about their benefits. Now consider how highly skilled that labor is. I agree the protections are disgusting.

And yes, there is less and less incentive to do good in this country and the Democrats are making sure of that. Tax the rich (read over achievers and innovators), give more money to the poor (under achievers) and the middle class (union workers). Expand government benefits (do the rich need benefits?).
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:07 am

kiryan wrote:umm... Democrats push for special rights which basically by definition is everyone who is not white. Whether its women, blacks, hispanics, gays whatever... special rights are by nature discriminatory and put the white male at a disadvantage. I'll stand by that claim.

I'm somewhat in agreement with your comment on teachers and qualifications.

I'm pretty much against your curriculum policy.

For now, I see no reason that Americans need to learn a second language. You don't need it domestically (or shouldn't need it) and to a large degree you don't need it internationally since its the language of science and business. If your kid wants to learn French, then you pay for it. This is coming from a guy who studied French, Spanish, Latin and Japanese in Highschool. I understand the benefit, most of which are better understanding of English, but for the masses and the tax payers its a waste of time and money.

Social studies. Another area of marginal benefit. I've spent my share of time studying foreign cultures and ancient history; I lived in Japan and Los Angeles. Why exactly does Joe the plumber we need to be informed? How does he shape foreign policy or even domestic policy? What does it matter if hes ignorant of world events? Who gives a shit what your opinion is on China? Does our strength come from knowing world geography? Does it come from cultural or religious sensitivity? These are all aspects of social engineering. When did government get the mandate to conduct social engineering and what exactly are they teaching my children?

We waste a lot of money teaching a lot of stuff. We need to focus on Math, Science, Reading and Writing. These are the skills that drive innovation. The rest of this stuff should be up to the parents to provide if you can afford it and are willing to invest the time in teaching your children. There are a few studies that say we are strong because of the diversity of our education program and point at places like Japan and Korea. Its more of the approach rather than the subject. They cram, theoretically we learn.

I think your figures for union wages are dramatically understated. They MAY take home as little as 50k, but what about their benefits. Now consider how highly skilled that labor is. I agree the protections are disgusting.

And yes, there is less and less incentive to do good in this country and the Democrats are making sure of that. Tax the rich (read over achievers and innovators), give more money to the poor (under achievers) and the middle class (union workers). Expand government benefits (do the rich need benefits?).


In relation to the cirriculum, I'm not sure how you're seeing the problem (or lack thereof in your case). Take for instance the recent discrimination against muslims. That is by and large due to the fact that Americans are mostly ignorant of other religious beliefs. Reducing this ignorance by exposing children to beliefs other than Christianity would likely stop the problem at its root -- except in the case of your average racist who doesn't care what facts are. And if Joe the Plumber were informed, he would likely not have made an ass of himself. Now, forgive my slippery slope argument, but if the American public were more informed about economics (global economics most importantly), the public would be more inclined to have a rational opinion when voting for who runs the country -- rather than voting on an ignorant alcoholic who drives the country into the dirt because 'he is someone they could have a drink at a bar with.' To be completely honest, the more I learn about economics, the more I'm swayed against heavy socialist programs and more towards deregulation of certain industries -- mainly due to my previous reliance on general principles. To say that you would rather have a public exercizing their voting rights based on misinformation, propaganda, and an unhealthily ignorant view of the political system and the candidates may show that you're either too self-centered to care or that it has paid off for you so far (or are counting on it in the future). While it may be true, you've shown as much in the past, and present, in your views of other people besides yourself.

As far as comparative education studies, I'm not sure I've ever seen one where we were even close to strong -- other than our universities (which are the best in the world). Our public education system is lacking. Secondly, you say you back the idea of secondary languages, but you don't want them federaly funded and added to the cirriculum. On that point, virtually every study I've seen has shown a markedly disparity of success (educational or otherwise) between those who do and do not know a foreign language -- in favor of those who do. It is no mystery these days that secondary language skills have a decent impact on cognitive functioning. Why does this country not support something that is vital to our education system?

As for the need of a secondary language for Americans, I'm not sure what you're basing this off of. There is an increasing need for workers who speak fluent Spanish in this country, and I don't see that need subsiding as we receive more and more spanish speaking immigrants every day. Understandabely, it is true that most foreign countries do speak English as, at least, a foreign language, but to say that one is not needed in this country is a disasterous overstatement.

Lastly, to say that if we want our kids to learn it, we should teach them assumes two things: that the parents are educated in these fields and that they have the time to teach. To the first, since most people stop their education (for many reasons, some being financial) at the high school level, how exactly would they learn these things? Not everyone is a Ben Franklin, and not everyone prescribes to his formulae for success; hell, even he didn't. Furthermore, with more and more people having to rely on secondary incomes (multiple jobs for the lower class), where are they going to find the time to teach their children? You seriously have to step outside of your own situation and look at the rest of the world for what it is rather than what you wish it would be. We will ALWAYS have a lower class (unless you like communism/strict socialism), the middle class is quickly disappearing, and those in the upper class have the money to pay so that they never have to see their children. And your solution to this is that they either make time, or the go to school -- because they didn't work hard enough as a teenager or young adult. We've discussed this in earlier years, so I'm not going to really go into it unless you want, but just know that I still think this is entirely self-centered and ignorant.

I agree with the above 50k (I've seen it and it pisses me off, personally). I only used 50k as what I find acceptable for unskilled labor. 30k wouldn't be a horrible number around here, honestly. I used to date a girl whose dad worked at GM as a maintenance man. He "worked" 10hrs/day and slept nearly 80% of that and brought home roughly 90-120k depending on overtime and bonuses.

Now, what I find most disturbing about your post is your idea is A) how you classify the rich and B) how you pin the lack of incentive on the Democrats. For one, the large majority of politicians, democrats and republicans, are a large part of the cause. What I was alluding to in my initial post was the current economic crisis in the financial markets. Poor, undeserving, uneducated underachievers did not cause that. They were not the ones who took unnecessary risks with money they didn't have and cause the whole system to implode (sure they took those loans though), but, as you say, the educated overachievers who gave those loans should have known better. Moreover, it was the republicans and their over-lax regulatory system that allowed it to happen. And that classification? Seriously, you think rich people are rich because they worked hard for that money? Do you know the percentage of rich people who's money is gotten through inheretance? I think the number is roughly 20%. Add to that the number of rich individuals who had rich parents who paid for their college. That number will skyrocket. It is very rare these days for someone to "pull themselves up by their bootstraps." Take also into consideration that many of these companies are being run into the ground, and your idea of innovative circles the drain along with that other turd. I think a great case study here would be Paris Hilton or G.W. Bush. Since when were these two ever considered innovative or overachieving. In fact, when hasn't the opposite of those ideas been attributed to those two by anyone considered rational?
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Wed Oct 22, 2008 2:27 am

tl;dr
- Ragorn
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Re: VP picks

Postby Kifle » Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:53 am

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081022/ap_ ... ily_travel

The state is already reviewing nearly $17,000 in per diem payments to Palin for more than 300 nights she slept at her own home, 40 miles from her satellite office in Anchorage.


Change we need...
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

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Re: VP picks

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:57 pm

I don't believe in religous tolerance. I don't believe you go out there and kill people over religion, but I believe in the truth and I will never agree that its ok for you to believe in something else. The concept of universal truth is lost on us. We're at the point where whatever you want to believe is fine for you and right for you and whatever I believe is fine and right for me (unless I hate homosexuals or black people). Its no wonder our kids don't know right for wrong. Everything is gray. There is one truth and there are those who believe it and those who reject it.

A rational opinion on who runs the country. You know its easy to 20/20 Bush's election or the vote for the wars which passed 100-0. Bush misled us blah blah blah why is everything wrong with this country Bush's fault? It wasn't until 2006 until anyone started saying there is something wrong. If you don't think that was political manipulation you are crazy. The "surge" is working, but where is the praise for those who got it right? Obama still can't admit that it worked or was the right thing to do. I have my issues with Bush, but villify him if you want to sweep the Democrats into office; its just as poor of a reason as someone you'd like to go drinking with. Actually its worse, one is misguided, the other is outright fraud.

I'm definitely not ignorant. I may actually be stupid or extremely slanted, but I am quite aware of what is going on. I may have at one point or the other advocated for real democracy (everyone votes on everything) or for punishment for people who don't vote (like in Australia), but I'm a little more fond of the idea that only educated and informed people should vote. Seriously, I do not want to be judged by a jury of my peers (or rather I would if I could find some peers). That line from Men In Black is great, a person is intelligent and thoughtful, people are fearful stupid and panicky. We've got by 200 years on this system of letting everyone vote, but it just doesn't make sense. I don't know, but if you think that I want the government social engineering my children to be tolerant and informed voters, you're right. Thats my job, whether I'm ignorant and self-centered and racist or what.

We were strong once. We transformed this entire world with our discoveries and innovations. We suck now, and I offer a reason why. A focus on all this extraneous stuff. A focus on feeling good and social engineering instead of the source of the basic skills that drive success and innovation.

Foreign language studies are good for the brain, hell just about all learning is good for the brain. Is this something we need to waste our time on when so many of our kids drop out of school and or graduate without being able to read (let alone read effectively). Our test scores suck ass, so do we pour money we don't have into foreign language as a method to increase test scores in math? I did research on head start and other early intervention programs designed to close the achievement gap. You know what they found, dramatic increases in test scores for like 2 or 3 years and no change by the time the kids hit 5th grade. I don't think foreign language studies is the magic pill you are looking for to turn average children with no parental involvement into geniuses.

Growing need for spanish speakers in this country. I can't believe you accept this. This is god damn america, we speak the common language of the world here, and we have to waste our time learning how to speak Spanish because immigrants can't be bothered to learn our language. We have to pay wage differentials to government employees because they have the special skill of speaking Spanish. We pay twice for publications once to put it out in English and once to put it out in Spanish. I am outraged; end these subsidies. Learn the language or fail.

Look, my basic position is THAT IT IS NOT THE GOVERNMENTS JOB TO RAISE YOUR CHILDREN AND TEACH THEM EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW. You get instruction in the core skills and its up to the parents to do the rest. Do you really like paying 55% of your tax dollars to baby sit these worthless parent's children? Its a crutch, ship your kids off from school without a second thought and cry about how the school is failing them for whatever reason. It is the parents fault first. I have 5 kids, 3 of which are in school 2 of which were failures until I jumped all over their asses and worked with them every night. And for those who are uneducated or unable to afford to learn or whatever, consider apprenticeship programs. You don't have to be a genius, you just have to take responsibility and do something for your children.

The system is not perfect. There are plenty of republicans that are just as bad as democrats, however it is the party platform of the democrats to work against the principles that made this country great (well other than fighting for equality). You want to blame the financial criss on the republicans and regulation. Who took out these mortgages and why did they do it... and why were they so stupid as to take out adjustable rate mortgages when interest rates were at ALL TIME LOWS. Banks didn't force people to open loans; people came to them because they were trying to get rich in the real estate boom. They just made poor decisions from ARMS to buying too much house to overall spending habits.

This goes back to education, it goes back to the culture, it goes to social engineering. We expect the government to take care of us. We expect the government to protect us from predatory lending. We expect the government to give us money if we don't have food or a place to live. We expect the government to pay for healthcare even though we do nothing to try and minimize the cost. So who is responsible for this financial mess? JOE CONSUMER IS. We can look all around for people to blame, but why can't joe consumer be responsible for his decisions. There is some sick statistic about the # of people who don't understand how compound interest works; the basis for basically every financial product there is, yet we as a consumer don't understand it. Is it because we are studying drama and art instead of consumer math?

Sure, the corporations were all greedy and stupid and could've stopped it, regulation could've stopped it, but it wouldn't exist if we actually used our brains and actually could restrain our own desires and purchases at the consumer level. And lets see how the Democrat's are leading in addressing the crisis the republicans supposedly created.... follow Bush's lead, bail everyone out by spending money we don't have... propagate the bubble by pushing it off into the future... Great job. So blame Bush for the failures even though you supported him. I am disgusted with the Republican party right now, but I'm not stupid enough to buy in to the Democratic platform or lack of leadership.
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Re: VP picks

Postby oteb » Sat Nov 01, 2008 6:38 pm

I would really like to thank you all for this thread and all alike.

Each time I want to get some information about US that does include more details than just main stream facts especially the "feelings" of people I come to this forum.
And I am never disappointed.
Here I can always read both sides of the story (and sometimes even third) when corth ragorn kifle et al clash in epic threads.
I came here each time there is some major commotion in US and honestly by reading it all I always left more informed than reading any major euro newspaper even with their large cross-section articles.

Gotta love this forum
Tnx.
Oteb
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A red shape group-says 'I'm a shape'
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Re: VP picks

Postby Ragorn » Sat Nov 01, 2008 8:57 pm

Glad to be of service :)
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.

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