Are teachers underpaid or not?

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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:25 pm

kiryan wrote:Government regulation creates problems and it starts with the erosion of personal responsibility for you and your family. You don't have to plan for the future because the government is going to take care of everything. Going to make sure you have living wages, going to make sure you have health care, going to make sure you have a house, going to make sure you can borrow money, going to give you money if you have a disabled child, going to give you social security if you can't hold a job, going to give you unemployment so you don't have to save, going to bail out the stock market, your company, your union so you don't lose your retirement.

Government is our problem and as government continues to take more and more responsibility for our personal life, there will be lower and lower quality of life, more restrictions and higher taxes.

The government is not supposed to take care of us individually. Its supposed to provide protection from foreign invasion so we can take live our own lives in the pursuit of happiness.


You're absolutely right! Everything that happens to us is our OWN fault! Toxic waste in the water? You shouldn't have lived there, enjoy your mutations! Shot by a stray bullet during a gang fight? Well you should have known better than to live in a gang area! Retirement fund disappears because the large banks entered into shady deals you had no control over? Well you should have known better than to invest that money! Have no retirement money because you never invested any? You should have invested! Fired because you're black? Maybe you should have been born white!


Hey, the thing is: shit happens. Houses catch fire, thugs attack people, dishonest businessmen can crumble an economy. The government's job is, as you say, to protect us. Why do you believe it needs to be limited to protection from foreign aggression when most of the threats any of us face will come from inside?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:43 pm

Toxic waste I'll give you. Police and a justice system with limited laws as well because you need basic order and some sort of non violent way to resolve disputes.

The rest is idiocy. You choose to invest, you need to keep tabs on your investments not demand the government regulate the company so you don't have to. You choose not to invest, you better have saved enough or have built your own social network to carry you into retirement... like kids or family or church.

Fired if you are black. Why shouldn't you be able to hire/fire whomever you want. Its your business, you lose if your business fails or you hire less qualified people.

For a motivated person, there is life and prospects. For an unmotivated person, there is hardship and no guarantees. Most people in this country wants to sit on their ass and milk the government teat. Whether its free social services or welfare checks or a bail out of their 401k.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:28 pm

kiryan wrote:
For a motivated person, there is life and prospects. For an unmotivated person, there is hardship and no guarantees. Most people in this country wants to sit on their ass and milk the government teat. Whether its free social services or welfare checks or a bail out of their 401k.



And here we go back to the heart of it. To you, anyone who has less than you is simply lazier than you. They didn't try hard enough. They may have been born with 5000 disadvantages that you didn't have to deal with, but they are inferior because they aren't as well off as you.

By this logic, of course, Paris Hilton is the pinnacle of our species.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:32 pm

kiryan wrote:Government regulation creates problems and it starts with the erosion of personal responsibility for you and your family. You don't have to plan for the future because the government is going to take care of everything. Going to make sure you have living wages, going to make sure you have health care, going to make sure you have a house, going to make sure you can borrow money, going to give you money if you have a disabled child, going to give you social security if you can't hold a job, going to give you unemployment so you don't have to save, going to bail out the stock market, your company, your union so you don't lose your retirement.

Government is our problem and as government continues to take more and more responsibility for our personal life, there will be lower and lower quality of life, more restrictions and higher taxes.

For a motivated person, there is life and prospects. For an unmotivated person, there is hardship and no guarantees. Most people in this country wants to sit on their ass and milk the government teat. Whether its free social services or welfare checks or a bail out of their 401k.


I combined a couple posts there. This is a departure from teacher pay, but that discussion seems to be entirely circular now, so what the hell.

The sentiment quoted above is what I am hearing more and more of after this last election. There is this idea that regulation is inherently bad because it stifles innovation and creates inefficiency in the sacred free market system. There is an idea that we're a country of whiners...that we're a country just waiting to get in line for handouts. Well, hell, kiryan you say it directly, "Most people in this country wants to sit on their ass and milk the government teat." If you want to come across as an arrogant, ignorant idealogue I can hardly think of a faster way.

The idea that a social safety net will lead this country to slovenly ruin is about as ridiculous as the ignorami that suggest gay marriages are undermining the social fabric of our puritan culture. In fact, it is insanely infuriating concept because it is so self-centered and childish.

The reality is that most people in this country want to work. Most people in this country abhor unearned charity, but will take a helping hand in an emergency or as a way to get a leg up.

Another reality is that it is nearly impossible to put logic in someone that rationalizes their own mythology.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:37 pm

I'll sum up Kyrian in one sentance: If I don't need or want it, nobody should.

What does more damage to a country, the big banks crumbling the entire economy, or the gangbanger down your street? The banks. What does Kyrian say?

The government is not supposed to take care of us individually. Its supposed to provide protection from foreign invasion so we can take live our own lives in the pursuit of happiness.


Saving your family from gang violence is none of my concern, nor is it the concern of the rest of the country. Go buy a gun and stop relying on government to save your ass because you can't fight or use a gun.

Your house (assets) burn down? You should have become a damned electrician and destroyed the drywall in your house, checked the electric system, redrywalled the house before you bought it. Oh, it was from a cigarette? Shouldn't smoke. In any case, the fire department should not exist, because if your house burns down, your bad luck, not mine. Does the rest of the country care that all your shit just went up in smoke? Nah. Being as such, your house means very little to my persuit of happiness.

Ok, under Kyrian's principles on what a government should be, he doesn't have a house and his neighbors are crackheads who have more money than him because they run a business that is non-violent -- drug dealers. Because, in his country, dealing drugs and doing drugs is legal because it is a personal choice of happiness that has no ill-effects on society -- unless you're a lunatic christian that wants to eradicat anything they don't believe in.

So, what is Kyrian to do in his country? He can't get a job because he has no house. He isn't about to take a handout from either the government (because they don't do that), and his family and friends wont do it either because they're too busy looking out for number one. His life only has a negative economic outome in relation to theirs if they were to help him. So, they shut their doors and tell him, "WTF dood, go get a fucking job, bum. Maybe if you would have worked a bit harder." Oh, and his savings? That wasn't federal insured and his bank was either robbed or they gambled too heavily in the sub-prime boom that they've lost all his money because, hey, who needs to regulate institutions that play with money that is not their own?

Poor Kyrian with his bajillion kids are fucked. Kyrian is then forced into cannibalism because, hey, he can make more kids, and he needs to survive. Survival of the fittest, that's this country's motto!

Fin
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:28 pm

I couldn't pick my favorite quote of this thread since its so full of chest-thumping retards, so I'll just highlight the part that made me laugh the most:
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:46 pm

Rofl. Now, back to my chest-thumping...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:52 pm

Kifle, can you explain why you don't have a job as a philosopher? I think that the answer may stun some people in this thread.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:03 pm

I own a gun and several weapons. I do make it my responsibility to protect my family from the average threat.

I don't know that I want police, but I see the benefits after reading about the wild west... Society must have a non violent means of solving disputes to have any degree of a cooperation. Thats what the justice system and the police are for and thats why they had to get stronger... but now we have too many laws that cover too much of life. I think we could go back to having common sense judges and do without a million laws.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:09 pm

Kifle,

I didn't realize you know so much about me! As an aside, I graduated law school in 2002 during the last big recession. Despite being in the top third of my class I couldn't get a decent job because absolutely nobody was hiring. Shit happens. I opened up my own office and I am very happy I did so. Of course, if that didn't work out (heh, I didn't earn my first buck for like 4 months - the credit cards were looking very nasty!) I don't think I would have given up altogether. Maybe I would have done something completely different, but I have little doubt that I would have found a way to provide a benefit to society, and in turn, be compensated for my efforts. And thats the crux of it. Generally speaking, you don't get something for nothing in this world. People pay you because you are giving them something of commensurate value.

I think one of the differences here is I am looking at the issue systemically whereas yourself and Sarvis are criticizing my viewpoints by bringing up individual case studies which you feel tend to undermine them. I'm thinking more in terms of broad policy, while you are correctly pointing out that some individuals by virtue of luck and happenstance, get fucked over. Unfortunately there is no way to abolish pain, suffering, and poverty. The way I see it, the best way to reduce such things and create the greatest standard of living for the most amount of people is to establish an unfettered free market system. After reading your post, I'm still unsure what exactly YOU would do to ensure the greatest standard of living for the most amount of people.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:52 pm

avak wrote:The sentiment quoted above is what I am hearing more and more of after this last election. There is this idea that regulation is inherently bad because it stifles innovation and creates inefficiency in the sacred free market system. There is an idea that we're a country of whiners...that we're a country just waiting to get in line for handouts. Well, hell, kiryan you say it directly, "Most people in this country wants to sit on their ass and milk the government teat." If you want to come across as an arrogant, ignorant idealogue I can hardly think of a faster way.


I don't care how I come across. 2 years ago, there was an article in our major paper that cited that 4/10 or 6/10 Oregonians that receive some sort of direct government subsidy like foodstamps, HUD, re-education/training program, free healthcare, SSI/disability, unemployment ect... We are dependent on the government for far too much. We couldn't be dependent on the programs if they didn't exist.

avak wrote:The reality is that most people in this country want to work. Most people in this country abhor unearned charity, but will take a helping hand in an emergency or as a way to get a leg up.


I'd wager that most American's don't consider it charity if they believe they are entitled to it. And I don't know where you've lived, but I've lived in Los Angeles, Flagstaff AZ and Oregon and I would absolutely disagree that most people want to work by their actions. Very few will say it, but the reality is they go to work and do a shitty job and post on the BBS all day instead of working.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:55 pm

kiryan wrote:I don't care how I come across. 2 years ago, there was an article in our major paper that cited that 4/10 or 6/10 Oregonians that receive some sort of direct government subsidy like foodstamps, HUD, re-education/training program, free healthcare, SSI/disability, unemployment ect... We are dependent on the government for far too much. We couldn't be dependent on the programs if they didn't exist.


You're right, without those programs jobs would magically appear and peoples' skills would magically change to meet shifting business needs! It'd be a perfect world without starvation or suffering, because everyone would be FORCED to take responsibility for the options they don't have!

Or, you know, they'd face a choice between crime and starvation.

You know, one of those scenarios... either way I guess.


EDIT: I noticed you put free education/training programs as a bad thing. So you don't even really want these people to have a way out of their dependence when they're trying? Nice, real classy. Crime it is!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:57 pm

Sarvis wrote:And here we go back to the heart of it. To you, anyone who has less than you is simply lazier than you. They didn't try hard enough. They may have been born with 5000 disadvantages that you didn't have to deal with, but they are inferior because they aren't as well off as you.


With all my advantages, I could still sit around and bitch all day long about someone else who has it better and why I should get more. The difference is I take responsibility for myself and my family. If I want more, its up to me to go out and earn it. You want the government to take it from someone else so you can have it.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:02 pm

I was citing the specific subsidies from the article that claimed 4 or 6/10 oregonians was receiving assistance. It would be absurd to leave anything out of the list regardless of whether I think it should or shouldn't exist.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:17 pm

kiryan wrote:
Sarvis wrote:And here we go back to the heart of it. To you, anyone who has less than you is simply lazier than you. They didn't try hard enough. They may have been born with 5000 disadvantages that you didn't have to deal with, but they are inferior because they aren't as well off as you.


With all my advantages, I could still sit around and bitch all day long about someone else who has it better and why I should get more. The difference is I take responsibility for myself and my family. If I want more, its up to me to go out and earn it. You want the government to take it from someone else so you can have it.


Ah, and there you go again. "You?" I'm doing just fine. I don't need any help right now. I simply understand that others do.

You, however, seem to think anyone who is not doing well is worthless. You envision anyone who has less than you as a potential leech upon your wallet, rather than as a person. So much so that you ascribe to anyone offering a differing viewpoint the qualities of those leeches you so despise.

They are people, just like you. Many of them have probably worked harder than you can ever imagine working. Yet you'd prefer that they die due to a lack of safety regulations than pay an extra penny out of your taxes so that a government inspector can ensure basic safety measures are enacted. You'd rather be surrounded by hordes of unskilled, uneducated "leeches" than pay 5 cents to provide training programs for the poor so that they can both improve themselves and contribute back to society.

You are everything that's wrong with capitalism.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:18 pm

kiryan wrote:I was citing the specific subsidies from the article that claimed 4 or 6/10 oregonians was receiving assistance. It would be absurd to leave anything out of the list regardless of whether I think it should or shouldn't exist.



Way to backpedal!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:00 am

Corth wrote:Kifle,

I didn't realize you know so much about me! As an aside, I graduated law school in 2002 during the last big recession. Despite being in the top third of my class I couldn't get a decent job because absolutely nobody was hiring. Shit happens. I opened up my own office and I am very happy I did so. Of course, if that didn't work out (heh, I didn't earn my first buck for like 4 months - the credit cards were looking very nasty!) I don't think I would have given up altogether. Maybe I would have done something completely different, but I have little doubt that I would have found a way to provide a benefit to society, and in turn, be compensated for my efforts. And thats the crux of it. Generally speaking, you don't get something for nothing in this world. People pay you because you are giving them something of commensurate value.

I think one of the differences here is I am looking at the issue systemically whereas yourself and Sarvis are criticizing my viewpoints by bringing up individual case studies which you feel tend to undermine them. I'm thinking more in terms of broad policy, while you are correctly pointing out that some individuals by virtue of luck and happenstance, get fucked over. Unfortunately there is no way to abolish pain, suffering, and poverty. The way I see it, the best way to reduce such things and create the greatest standard of living for the most amount of people is to establish an unfettered free market system. After reading your post, I'm still unsure what exactly YOU would do to ensure the greatest standard of living for the most amount of people.


Most don't know this about me, Corth, but I am God. I know everything about everyone. All non-kidding aside, glad it worked out, but, like you alluded to, it may not have. Now, I have no way of knowing your debt, but how good of a living would you have if that didn't pan out and you had to take a job for 25k/yr? How long would it take you to A) buy a house B) a car C) pay off your debt (not including house and car)? At what age would you be able to have enough income to invest in, say, the stock market or make meaningful deposits into CDs or IRAs?

As far as my style of argumentation, I use anecdotal evidence because theoretical evidence is nothing shy of insubstantial -- it is just a theory. Also, you're kind of calling the pot black, Mr. Kettle. How many times have you argued against socialism by pointing to France's economy? The tactic, as you well know, is to argue theory with counter-example anecdotes. It works well, and, in some cases, is actually meaningful. I think in this case, and the case against socialism, they are meaningful -- which is why I brought them up. I have tried discussing ethical theory; that didn't work. I've tried discussing American capitalism vs. actual capitalism; All I got in return were side-step answers and "that's too academic." Not once did I actually get a response that made it seem like anyone actually read the paper. And, if they did, I assume that they couldn't make an argument without sounding too stubborn.

If you want policy statements, I already told you it would be meaningless in this case. This country is so entrenched in a broken system, there is no hope unless someone decides to completely overhaul it -- which wont happen. At this point, I don't believe any substantial change is good or warrented; it would only lead to disasterous results; however, over the long-term, say 50-100 years, I believe the change could be slight enough to where the country wouldn't crumble. On these policy changes, well, I'm not going to outline such a long-term program, nor will I waste the time thinking about it. I don't like wasting that much time. If you want my ideal system that operates outside of this universe, like I said, I'd gladly give it to you; however, I'm not going to disclose my ideal policies so you or Kyrian can throw some straw-man or reductio ad absurdum argument at them -- that's not fair to me or the ideas themselves.

Kyrian,

I just have one question: Do you think you are a Christian? I thought I heard you say you followed that religion... I was just wondering.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:11 am

kiryan wrote:It is not a product of their school systems or teachers, its a product of their culture and their parenting and we can thank the 60s for our problems.


Yes, agree 100% about the 60s. That was a turning point in human progress.

kiryan wrote:There was a good article in national news recently about asians overrunning a school district and that they won't get engaged with the school in bake sales and school spirit stuff. They only come down to the school if their kid gets an A-.


Supporting your child's school is very important. Having pride in your school is important. Cheerleading is mentally retarded.

kiryan wrote:#1, why do teachers need more pay. Because paying them more will obviously result in a better education? Prove it. Prove it with the reality of unions and tenure.


Eliminate unions and tenure, agreed. But then, increase pay.

kiryan wrote:#2, why increase the base requirements. how does this result in kids learning more when its primarily an issue of parenting?


PRIMARILY, yes Kiryan. But not exclusively. Teachers not knowing their subject matter is a huge concern, and currently very rampant.

kiryan wrote:#3, I agree that we need to increase teacher accountability. There are some teachers that should be doing more.
#4, Definitely agree we could curtail BS especially for students who aren't making it. Not sure we agree what is BS, I'll throw dance, cheer leading, art, music, drama, student government and foreign language on my list. I'm not saying any of these are bad, but I'd prefer not to pay for them and I don't think kids who are failing in English, Math and Science should have the option to participate.


One thing I've learned, when you give a struggling student the chance to play a sport or be in some organized drama/forensics/etc. team, many of them improve, get organized and develop more discipline. Not all, but many. And if they keep sucking, then yes, no participation. It's not a bad thing Kiryan. Well, except cheerleading.

And we want our students to all be Renaissance men/women, in my opinion. We want them to be good at everything, and enjoy learning about everything, not just Math and Science. The more languages one learns, the more opportunities one has, the smarter one is, the wider a vocabulary one has. And that's proven. Plus I teach Spanish, so *bird*. :)

kiryan wrote:#5, I don't know that I agree with students needing to repeat grades.. you don't fail a grade you fail a subject. If you fail 4h grade math, should you repeat 4th grade reading, history, ect or go onto 5th grade and be pulled out for 4th grade math?


Notice I said fail the grade Kiryan, not a class. When you're failing 2-3 classes, the year was wasted. One class is a different matter, agreed.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:42 am

I still disagree having pride in your school is important for any reason other than continuing to turn out the type of people that believe we have to all work together and accept everyone the way they are. We don't and we shouldn't and I especially hate it when my kids come home espousing the schools crap. It took me like a month to talk sense into my 10 yo about "healthy" foods. He was freaking out because he didn't eat 4 servings of vegetables and he had too many servings of meat ect ect ect... he will never be fat unless he sits around and eats ice cream all day, its just not in his genes. He almost has a fricken complex about it now, thank you school district, my 10 yo has an eating disorder now.

Eliminate unions and tenure and increase pay... maybe but we have to talk about benefits first... but maybe.

I didn't realize there were that many teachers that didn't know their subject matter. Maybe you're right, you're on the inside. I've only run into one or two that I felt were incompetent in their subject matter, but their incompetency also tended to be above the grade level of what they were teaching. There are far more that are simply lazy and uncaring rather than incompetent in my estimation.

The extra curricular activities / electives are not necessarily bad. They are just expensive and dilute the core focus on Reading, Writing, Math and Science. If we cut electives that could mean more teachers teaching core and less students per teacher or maybe just lower taxes. I'm not really 100% for cutting all this stuff, there are benefits. But if you really wanted to fix our achievement scores, heres an area to gather resoruces from. I'd actually cut special ed too, and I'll remind all of you that I have an autistic child. If we could get rid of all the other government spending, I probably wouldn't mind funding schools and electives better.

Agreed on the failing a grade. If you fail reading and writing, its hard to make a good argument that you should be promoted to the next grade.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:54 am

I am a Christian. I went to a Christian College to learn about and understand what I believe, I pray and I generally like to go to church although I don't feel I have to every Sunday. I do follow the religion and the part I struggle with the most is loving people. I'd just as soon as let you all die without lifting a finger.

You don't have to be perfect to be a Christian, you don't even have to be "good" although you would need to be "good" to be a "good christian". Here is the core of non denominational Christianity... believe that there is a god, that Jesus is his son and ask him to forgive you for your sins and to be your Lord and savior. Most everything else, like obeying the commandments and being "good" is a work in progress and forgivable with the exception of blasphamey of the holy spirit.

I wouldn't call myself a good Christian, but I am a Christian and I am saved. Of this I am certain.

If I wasn't Christian, I'd be a buddhist.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:12 am

kiryan wrote:I am a Christian. I went to a Christian College to learn about and understand what I believe, I pray and I generally like to go to church although I don't feel I have to every Sunday. I do follow the religion and the part I struggle with the most is loving people. I'd just as soon as let you all die without lifting a finger.

You don't have to be perfect to be a Christian, you don't even have to be "good" although you would need to be "good" to be a "good christian". Here is the core of non denominational Christianity... believe that there is a god, that Jesus is his son and ask him to forgive you for your sins and to be your Lord and savior. Most everything else, like obeying the commandments and being "good" is a work in progress and forgivable with the exception of blasphamey of the holy spirit.

I wouldn't call myself a good Christian, but I am a Christian and I am saved. Of this I am certain.

If I wasn't Christian, I'd be a buddhist.



Ah yes, gotta love Christianity. As long as you believe what the Pope says you'll be forgiven anything. Even Jack the Ripper probably got into heaven!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 1:41 am

Kiryan, just curious as to why you would choose to send your children to public school.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 2:31 am

Sarvis wrote:Ah yes, gotta love Christianity. As long as you believe what the Pope says you'll be forgiven anything. Even Jack the Ripper probably got into heaven!


Ah yes, gotta love ignorance and cynicism.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:09 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Ah yes, gotta love Christianity. As long as you believe what the Pope says you'll be forgiven anything. Even Jack the Ripper probably got into heaven!


Ah yes, gotta love ignorance and cynicism.


I am a pretty big fan of cynicism...

So, just felt like throwing around insults or are you going to enlighten us?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 3:55 am

Sarvis wrote:So, just felt like throwing around insults or are you going to enlighten us?


You attack Christianity for no reason, out of the blue, you betcha I'm going to point it out. By the way, that means it was you throwing the insults around.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to Corth's question regarding specific policies you would take. Since what you do usually is just criticize or insult...see above.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:14 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So, just felt like throwing around insults or are you going to enlighten us?


You attack Christianity for no reason, out of the blue, you betcha I'm going to point it out. By the way, that means it was you throwing the insults around.


I didn't insult anyone. If anything I insulted an entity, and you've decided to take it personally. Of course, you STILL haven't done anything to lift my supposed ignorance, which is waht I was asking for. Please, enlighten us. What was wrong in what I said? Christianity espouses that you are forgiven for your sins as long as you believe in Jesus. That's it. It's free license to be a dick without even worrying about the moral implications of it, which is why the Mafia is frequently able to get away with being very religious. It's also why you get to do fun thinks like justify wars in the name of your religion.

So again, enlighten us. What am I ignorant about.

I wasn't asking why you were pointing something out, I was asking you to explain where I was wrong. After all, if you're going to call me ignorant the LEAST a "good christian," and a teacher to boot, could do is attempt to lift that ignorance isn't it?


I'm still waiting for you to respond to Corth's question regarding specific policies you would take. Since what you do usually is just criticize or insult...see above.



I've been thinking about it. Funny how I'm supposed to both be ignorant AND revamp entire economic systems in one day!
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:39 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So, just felt like throwing around insults or are you going to enlighten us?


You attack Christianity for no reason, out of the blue, you betcha I'm going to point it out. By the way, that means it was you throwing the insults around.

I'm still waiting for you to respond to Corth's question regarding specific policies you would take. Since what you do usually is just criticize or insult...see above.


In all honestly, Sarvis, it was a bit insulting; however, I don't think it was the least bit unwarrented. One of Christianity's major tenets is charity -- which is why I had asked Kyrian the half rhetorical question. In fact, there are so many transgressions against Christian thought to be found in this BBS written by Kyrian, the question was simply asked to mock him quietly, but, the fact that he is so high and mighty about his perverse reading (if in fact he even has opened a bible for much other than justifying bigotry and selfishness -- and possibly dominance over the oposite sex) of the religious scriptures that it leads me to the conclusion that his religious ideologies are so far gone and ingrained that it would do little more than strengthen his already diluted version. In truth, I feel kinda sad for the little guy.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sundara » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:49 am

Just came across this thread and browsed it some and saw something about Christianity and being saved. Lot's of people think that committing such mortal sins; that they are saved and go to heaven just because they believe in Christ, but you know, even the devil believes in Christ. So that is not always the case. You are forgiven and saved only when you "repent" which also means, you have to truly mean it from the heart and not sin again. At least that is how I was raised in believing and in the end the ultimate judge is God. There are a lot of religious fanatics out there who feel they can judge folks and say, 'your damned to hell.' But the truth of the matter is, (for those of us who do believe and follow in the Holy Trinity, anyway) the judge is God because aside from Him being the ultimate creator, He is the one who knows the heart of the man, not humans.

I normally don't like to get into political and religious discussions and impose my beliefs on anyone (unless they are curious and ask me, then I'm happy to share them) but this thread was kind of interesting enough for me to share my most humble input. Which probably won't happen again. Btw, don't mean to derail the main topic, Kiryan. So carry on fellas! And God bless you all, even if you don't believe... =P


Back to an interesting debate - teachers being underpaid or not......hmmm
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:I didn't insult anyone. If anything I insulted an entity, and you've decided to take it personally.


You didn't insult an entity, you insulted a belief, one that I believe in. Therefore, you insulted me.

Sarvis wrote:Of course, you STILL haven't done anything to lift my supposed ignorance, which is waht I was asking for. Please, enlighten us.


No, Sarvis. You were being sarcastic. If you wanted to ask a question, or seek information, use good manners.

Sarvis wrote:Christianity espouses that you are forgiven for your sins as long as you believe in Jesus. That's it.


No, it doesn't. And no, that's not it. Ignorant people might use that as an excuse to do/say the things you mentioned. Ignorant people might also use that ignorant belief to insult Christianity, just for the sake of insulting organized religion. Like Sundara(?) said, you are forgiven of sins after Confessing them, and repenting having done them, seeking fully and truthfully to try not to repeat your sin. Etc. Etc.

Sarvis wrote:After all, if you're going to call me ignorant the LEAST a "good christian," and a teacher to boot, could do is attempt to lift that ignorance isn't it?


Always, to someone who truly wants to learn, be enlightened, and progress. From your posts, all you seek to do is criticize, belittle and insult. You start posts with insults. So either you need to learn manners, or realize your internal anger towards everything in life. Almost any attempts in the past I have made to explain anything have been responded to by you with snide, cynical, belittling responses. It's not about you being a liberal, for I can have far better discussions with Avak or Kifle (dear God I'm saying this).

For this whole frigging thread I've been agreeing with the comments made by liberals, and trying to inform Kiryan and Corth, Conservatives like me. That was, until you threw in the random attack-Christianity post. How about before attacking and insulting Christianity on a completely false and ignorant belief, YOU try checking the facts first. It's one thing to use anecdotal information to back a claim, but it's another to insult using it.

Sarvis wrote:Funny how I'm supposed to both be ignorant AND revamp entire economic systems in one day!


You still didn't answer his question...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:53 pm

Not getting into the jesus debate except to say this:

It's always struck me as odd that the political party that espouses Christianity is also the political party that opposes helping the poor.

Didn't I read something about a camel, a needle, and a rich man?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 20, 2008 4:58 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:You didn't insult an entity, you insulted a belief, one that I believe in. Therefore, you insulted me.


Insulting your belief and insulting you are two different things. I don't take it personally when people insult liberals, for instance. You have decided to take this personally. I'm sorry if I offended you, but you KNOW there are large numbers of people who call themselves Christians who do indeed believe in the way I've stated or use it as an excuse for their misdeeds.

No, Sarvis. You were being sarcastic. If you wanted to ask a question, or seek information, use good manners.


Actually, I wasn't being sarcastic. I know that's rare, but maybe you should try reading what people say without having judged them first. As for good manners, I return what I get. This is the second time you have flown off the handle at me over a slight misunderstanding. Maybe the problem isn't me?

Sarvis wrote:Christianity espouses that you are forgiven for your sins as long as you believe in Jesus. That's it.

No, it doesn't. And no, that's not it. Ignorant people might use that as an excuse to do/say the things you mentioned.


"A key aspect of salvation to remember is that it is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9). Salvation from start to finish is the Lord's work, not man's. Human beings cannot save themselves. Salvation is both of God and from Him. Ultimately, it is God who saves us from God's wrath, which will most assuredly come.

Salvation proceeds from the love of God, is based upon the atonement wrought by His Son Jesus Christ, is realized in forgiveness, regeneration, and sanctification, and culminates in the resurrection and glorification of all those who accept Jesus Christ as Savior."
- http://www.gospeloutreach.net/salvation.html

So yes, I'm sorry for "insulting you" by paraphrasing the most typical belief I hear espoused by other Christians. (See, THAT was sarcasm!)

Ignorant people might also use that ignorant belief to insult Christianity, just for the sake of insulting organized religion. Like Sundara(?) said, you are forgiven of sins after Confessing them, and repenting having done them, seeking fully and truthfully to try not to repeat your sin. Etc. Etc.


Or, you know, it's for "all those who accept Jesus Christ as savior."

Sarvis wrote:After all, if you're going to call me ignorant the LEAST a "good christian," and a teacher to boot, could do is attempt to lift that ignorance isn't it?


Always, to someone who truly wants to learn, be enlightened, and progress. From your posts, all you seek to do is criticize, belittle and insult. You start posts with insults.


Really? Where? Come on, show me a post I ACTUALLY started with an insult, rather than something you took as an insult even though it wasn't directed anywhere near you.

So either you need to learn manners, or realize your internal anger towards everything in life. Almost any attempts in the past I have made to explain anything have been responded to by you with snide, cynical, belittling responses. It's not about you being a liberal, for I can have far better discussions with Avak or Kifle (dear God I'm saying this).


Again, examples please. You've not tried to explain much to me, other than the challenging aspects of your private school job vs. your public school job where I thought we came to an understanding. You sure you're not confusing me with someone else here?

For this whole frigging thread I've been agreeing with the comments made by liberals, and trying to inform Kiryan and Corth, Conservatives like me. That was, until you threw in the random attack-Christianity post.


Which wasn't directed at you, wasn't really an insult, and wasn't random as Kiryan had just posted about how he was a bad Christian who would be forgiven by believing.

How about before attacking and insulting Christianity on a completely false and ignorant belief, YOU try checking the facts first. It's one thing to use anecdotal information to back a claim, but it's another to insult using it.


Well, I've cited a source now. Your turn, I guess? I mean, if you're going to call what I said completely false and ignorant and tell me to check the facts... I just presented one. Your turn.


Sarvis wrote:Funny how I'm supposed to both be ignorant AND revamp entire economic systems in one day!


You still didn't answer his question...


Yes, and as further proof you are more interested in attacking me than in actual discussion you ignored the part where I said I'm still thinking about it.

EDIT: http://www.gotquestions.org/Christian-l ... ation.html

Apparently once a Christian believes in Christ he can't possibly lose his salvation either!

I'm the ignorant one? Maybe you should look to the people proselytizing your beliefs.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:46 pm

Yea repenting. Forgot that in my haste or rather over generalized it as being a work in progress.

--

Republicans are against big government not charity. They want to spend their "charity" as they see fit (through their churches and social out reach programs) not be taxed and have it given away. Government has taken on the roles that used to handled by the churches.

I used to engage in a lot of charity, but I've been disappointed so many times that I try not to care anymore. I'm sure I'll get over it someday, but today is not the day.

--

I send my kids to public school for lots of reasons.

1. Why pay for something when you can get it for free.

2. Private schools generally do not have the kinds of resources that public schools have available to them. If you expect things and go down and demand them, you can get them in my district.

3. I am willing to spend the time to ensure my kids get a good education by supplementing their education at home and kick ass at the school when necessary. If I didn't have the time to spend with my kids, I'd send them to a higher quality educational program.

4. Private schools can be more sheltered. My kids are going to live in the real world, I'm not rich enough to shelter them for 25-30-90 years.

The biggest argument for sending my kids to private school would be so they can develop relationships with people who are of means or more likely to have means in the future. The dissuading point is that more than likely k-12 friends won't last, so I'd rather save the money and send them to a Harvard or Yale.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Thu Nov 20, 2008 6:08 pm

1. Why pay for something when you can get it for free.


I guess we know who's lined up at the gov't teat now. I'll be laughing for the rest of the day, thanks.

I'd echo that this attitude is what's wrong with capitalism...also what's wrong with our society. The 'me first' generation of self-righteous pricks. Pontificating from on high about the sloth and decadence of the proles all the while suckling at the teat on the other side of your mouth....rationalizing that its just a broken system, so why not take advantage....and, hey I'm better than the rest of those leeches...I understand the system.

The fact of the matter is that you can't reasonably afford to send your kids to a school system that is better than your socialized public school. It is also fact that you would -rather- send them to private school if you could. Less kids? Less Applebee's? Better job? I don't know, its all about personal responsibility in this society, man.

It is entirely unfortunate that out of all the Christian teachings, you can't practice, "I am my brother's keeper."

So here's to tearing down the integrity of this great nation by demanding that we all have equal opportunity to succeed and that it is my responsibility to ensure that you have the rights and freedoms that I do.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 7:29 pm

i can easily put my kids in private school or home school if I thought that was best. I listed 3 other reasons why my kids are in public school.

If the teat is there, you'd be a fool not to get some milk. Laugh all you want, I'm a capitalist and my criticisms are no less valid, potentially more valid because I am criticizing a system that benefits me.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:03 pm

kiryan wrote:i can easily put my kids in private school or home school if I thought that was best. I listed 3 other reasons why my kids are in public school.

If the teat is there, you'd be a fool not to get some milk. Laugh all you want, I'm a capitalist and my criticisms are no less valid, potentially more valid because I am criticizing a system that benefits me.


The "can't beat'em; join'em" mentality does the opposite. It makes you just as culpable, if not more so, than those than actually need it. There are people that need welfare for a time, and stop using it once they are back on their feet; then there are those that milk it until they are either caught, or they keep on milking it with no aim to better themselves. The prior uses the programs for what they were intended for; the latter uses the system in such a way that it undermines its usefulness and inception.

In effect, there are those that use for need, and those that use because they can. You are of the latter. Therefore, you are no better than the crackwhore that breeds for welfare. You contradict your own economic and social philosophies -- the same as when you took government assistance to pay for college.

If we were able to eradicate those that used for selfish purpose rather than greed, the system wouldn't fail and would work as intended -- as a saftey net and as temporary assistance. You, and people like you, as you have said without indicating your personal culpability, are the reason for contempt within socialism -- not the inherent qualities of socialism.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:11 pm

I agree with parts of that, but I'll throw this out there.

If I qualify, then the system was meant to help me. Furthermore, I am entitled to the benefit as long as I qualify. Under this rational, I reject any culpability for "abusing the system".

It is working precisely as designed and we have a horde of government workers (at least in AZ, CA and OR) whose goal is to register and enroll every qualified person on every government subsidy there is. I worked for Oregon's Department of Human Services and I swear to you that came straight out of the Director's mouth in a speech to the employees.

Government providing all this crap is the problem.... not capitalists using benefits they are entitled to.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Thu Nov 20, 2008 8:25 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree with parts of that, but I'll throw this out there.

If I qualify, then the system was meant to help me. Furthermore, I am entitled to the benefit as long as I qualify. Under this rational, I reject any culpability for "abusing the system".

It is working precisely as designed and we have a horde of government workers (at least in AZ, CA and OR) whose goal is to register and enroll every qualified person on every government subsidy there is. I worked for Oregon's Department of Human Services and I swear to you that came straight out of the Director's mouth in a speech to the employees.

Government providing all this crap is the problem.... not capitalists using benefits they are entitled to.


I wont deny that is what happens, and I'm not about to agree with the practice. I find that the definition of those who "need" are being lumped with those that can simply "benefit" from these programs, and they should not be there for those who can simply "benefit" from the programs -- because, simply, who couldn't benefit from free shit?

I've tried to make my views on socialism as clear as possible, but I'm afraid I keep getting lumped in with those that are gung-ho on the idea and think it is the end-all-be-all of economic theory. Simply, I believe that socialism is intrinsicly good -- moreso than our implimentation of capitalism; however, I believe it is possible for both to coexist in a dialectical implimentation that should be constantly revised and scrutinized. I hate welfare whores, and I honestly don't think that anybody on this board doesn't. For every welfare whore, there is another person who would use it the correct way that is being turned away.

To be short, and possibly more confusing, I am highly in favor of humanitarian capitalism with tinges of socialism -- a socialistic capitalism; however, I am highly against a capitalistic socialism; it would never work. We do need some form of welfare. Very tighly regulated. Constantly being looked at as something that falls victim to criminalization as does murder. We do need some form of minimal universal healthcare. We have it in place already, but it's called bankruptcy. Therefore, we are already paying for it, only indirectly rather than directly.

Now, if there were no luck involved in life. If an economic system could sustain an entire populace that worked as hard as they can and eventually all made the same money depending on effort they put into themselves. If everyone did start at the same starting line in life. Then I would shun socialism. If life depended on how hard you work, yes, let those that leech rot in hell; however, this is not the world we live in -- nor will it ever be that world. An economic system depends on McDonalds workers just as much as it depends on CEOs. It depends on maids just as much as it depends on trust fund kids investing their monies into the market. It depends on the guy that replaces my furnace filter every 6 months just as it depends on the lawyer he hires after he steals shit out of his "boss'" home. The world needs socialism.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sundara » Thu Nov 20, 2008 9:08 pm

Ragorn wrote:Not getting into the jesus debate except to say this:

It's always struck me as odd that the political party that espouses Christianity is also the political party that opposes helping the poor.

Didn't I read something about a camel, a needle, and a rich man?



Hola Ragfoof. :) Not getting into this debate either, but your comment compels me to respond, amigo! We all know that corruption is everywhere, so there are a lot of wolves dressed in sheep clothing even in Christianity. That is why only a few make it to paradise. Again, those are the beliefs I've been raised with and this is my last derailment. ;p


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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:14 am

Sarvis wrote:Well, I've cited a source now. Your turn, I guess? I mean, if you're going to call what I said completely false and ignorant and tell me to check the facts... I just presented one. Your turn.


Hehe. Did you even read all the information on the site you posted?

"The most frequent objections to the belief that a Christian cannot lose salvation are: (1) what about those who are Christians and continually live an immoral lifestyle? – and – (2) what about those who are Christians but later reject the faith and deny Christ? The problem with these two objections is the assumption “are Christians.” (1) The Bible declares that a true Christian will not live a continually immoral lifestyle (1 John 3:6). (2) The Bible declares that anyone who departs the faith is demonstrating that he/she never truly was a Christian (1 John 2:19)."

Now that was taken from some random site, but let's look at what the Vatican says also:

"1473 The forgiveness of sin and restoration of communion with God entail the remission of the eternal punishment of sin, but temporal punishment of sin remains. While patiently bearing sufferings and trials of all kinds and, when the day comes, serenely facing death, the Christian must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace. He should strive by works of mercy and charity, as well as by prayer and the various practices of penance, to put off completely the "old man" and to put on the "new man."

So, again, Christianity does not "espouse that you are forgiven for your sins as long as you believe in Jesus. That's it.". There is Confession, there is Repentance, Penance, etc. Believing the contrary is ignorant or naive. Read the entire page the Vatican has on Forgiveness of Sin if you want the complete story. And again, the COMPLETE story, not just one snippet. There's a nice summary near the end.

The entire problem and insult I feel is that people are ignorant of the true beliefs of Christianity. They think they know, but do not. Add to that a hatred of organized religion, based on false information, and you get attacks on the religion instead of the people who abuse it. It's like attacking liberals because the ACLU exists. I know many liberals who are better people and patriots than I am, that I would never want to group with the human FILTH that is the ACLU.

Ragorn said that "It's always struck me as odd that the political party that espouses Christianity is also the political party that opposes helping the poor." We do not oppose helping the poor in the LEAST. But we believe we should teach them how to fish, not just give them fish. I'll give fish to the poor guy asking for change under the overpass. But social programs like welfare? No, those need to teach not just give. They should have the strictest of rules and requirements in order to keep receiving the benefits.

Sarvis wrote:Insulting your belief and insulting you are two different things. I don't take it personally when people insult liberals, for instance. You have decided to take this personally. I'm sorry if I offended you, but you KNOW there are large numbers of people who call themselves Christians who do indeed believe in the way I've stated or use it as an excuse for their misdeeds.


I thank the apology, and agree that there are MANY people calling themselves Christians who are ignorant or use it to abuse, or just plain don't do what they should be doing. Criticize them, not the religion. Criticize the bishops who cover up crimes, not the religion. Jesus/God didn't commit the crime, some guy did.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:19 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Ragorn said that "It's always struck me as odd that the political party that espouses Christianity is also the political party that opposes helping the poor." We do not oppose helping the poor in the LEAST. But we believe we should teach them how to fish, not just give them fish. I'll give fish to the poor guy asking for change under the overpass. But social programs like welfare? No, those need to teach not just give. They should have the strictest of rules and requirements in order to keep receiving the benefits.

Didn't Jesus use five loaves of bread and two fish to feed an entire crowd?

I must have missed the part of the story where he refused to give out the bread until everyone became a farmer.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:14 am

Ragorn wrote:Didn't Jesus use five loaves of bread and two fish to feed an entire crowd?

I must have missed the part of the story where he refused to give out the bread until everyone became a farmer.


The people who were there were people who wanted to see and hear Jesus' message, and had already been following him for 3 days. They found themselves in a remote part of the countryside, with no very nearby villages, and food was scarce. Jesus did not want them to go to get food elsewhere, as they had come to hear his message. These weren't random people in the city. The passage in question has to do with Jesus' words: "I am the bread of life, he that cometh to me shall never hunger, and he that believeth in me shall never thirst." It is about Jesus being able to "feed" any who come/believe in him.

I understand your point Ragorn, as do the many who help any immigrants/poor who come to the parish seeking help; as do the 2 little kids in the Philippines we took on through a Christian charity to support, feed, and educate academically and religiously. They came to the church seeking aid, and I, and many others, will always help them. My being forced to give money to theoretically help people in some sort of "need", without usually any actual teaching involved, is something completely different. Remember, when His Mom asked Him to help turn water into wine, He said no at first. He only did it because it was His Mother.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 21, 2008 7:57 am

Whatever excuse helps you sleep at night, I guess. I just don't think jesus would be splitting hairs.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:04 pm

It's not an excuse Ragorn, it's a fact. The excuse is not realizing fact. The best love some people deserve is tough. It is not my job nor should I judge them, but I should seek their best interests always. The immediate gratification of just giving someone money isn't what's best for them as a whole, usually. Maybe you're confusing loving them with being nice.

Should you always say yes to your daughter whenever she asks for something?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 21, 2008 3:57 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:It's not an excuse Ragorn, it's a fact. The excuse is not realizing fact. The best love some people deserve is tough. It is not my job nor should I judge them, but I should seek their best interests always. The immediate gratification of just giving someone money isn't what's best for them as a whole, usually. Maybe you're confusing loving them with being nice.

Should you always say yes to your daughter whenever she asks for something?


If she hasn't eaten in three days and is asking for a piece of bread, probably yes.

We're talking about actual suffering here, not a little girl throwing a tantrum over a new doll.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:26 pm

Sarvis wrote:If she hasn't eaten in three days and is asking for a piece of bread, probably yes.

We're talking about actual suffering here, not a little girl throwing a tantrum over a new doll.


There was no previous mention of the word suffering that I could recall. It was originally about "the poor". The second you mention the word suffering, Sarvis, I will always agree with giving, always. Actual suffering, actual poverty, ala Africa, Haiti, etc. We should never hesitate to help anyone in such a condition. That's one thing Sarvis. But when you use that word in reference to America, the useage deals with a completely different scenario. The connotations of the word then brings up debate as to what condition really they are in. Does that mean we shouldn't help them? No. It just goes back to my statement of HOW we help them.

Likewise, the original mention of loaves of fish by Ragorn was used erroneously, as the passage did not deal with poverty in the least. Ragorn, do you just want to believe Republicans or Conservatives do not want to help the poor? Does it make your believes stronger to believe that?

I donate as much of my money as I can handle to different charities, like the kids in the Phillipines I sponsor, the money I've sent to different missions in Africa and India, Central America, and the Caribbean. Heck even Paralyzed Vets get money from me each year. I went one summer with students to work in the countryside of the Dominican Republic helping a POOR community build a bridge over a river so that they could have better access to the main road, the nearby hospital, etc. What I saw there wasn't as bad as Africa, mind you, but nothing here in the US that I have ever seen or read comes close to their conditions. When we were done, we gave them all our excess clothes we had brought with us, and offered a collection at the last mass we had to give to the little village.

Are you going to tell me still I do nothing for the poor as a Conservative? A Catholic? A Republican? That all the students who volunteered to go their over 2 weeks of summer aren't? Do not group us with politicians or political fantasies.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:28 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Should you always say yes to your daughter whenever she asks for something?

If she's starving to death or sick with no medicine, yes.
- Ragorn
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:30 pm

Ragorn wrote:If she's starving to death or sick with no medicine, yes.


See above.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:37 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Ragorn, do you just want to believe Republicans or Conservatives do not want to help the poor? Does it make your believes stronger to believe that?

Well, if I could use one of your sayings, "the excuse is not realizing fact."

The Republican Party is not concerned with the poor. When the subject of welfare comes up, the republican party platform is "less government." There are no alternatives being provided by the republican party, the stance is to do nothing and put the onus on the individual to make charitable contributions. And while there may be individuals in the republican party who make donations to charity, the party platform is not to concern the nation with taking care of the less fortunate.

That's what I find a bit ironic. You would think, in a rational world, that the party of jesus would be the party who favored helping the poor and disabled.
- Ragorn
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 21, 2008 4:40 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I went one summer with students to work in the countryside of the Dominican Republic helping a POOR community build a bridge over a river so that they could have better access to the main road, the nearby hospital, etc. What I saw there wasn't as bad as Africa, mind you, but nothing here in the US that I have ever seen or read comes close to their conditions.



Has it ever occurred to you that we don't see that level of poverty here BECAUSE of the social programs you're arguing against?

Yet we still have kids going without meals, without medicine, without basic healthcare because their parents simply can't afford it.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Nov 21, 2008 6:46 pm

Ragorn wrote:The Republican Party is not concerned with the poor.


That's like saying that the Democratic Party is not concerned with values.

Ragorn wrote:That's what I find a bit ironic. You would think, in a rational world, that the party of jesus would be the party who favored helping the poor and disabled.


Yes, and they do 100%. Once again, for the third post, our way of helping them is to try and ensure their future, not JUST their present. And you keep associating the Republican party with Jesus; should I associate the Democratic party with Satan? Come on.

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