Are teachers underpaid or not?

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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:19 pm

kiryan wrote:two loving parents (preferably male and female).


Rofl, you homophobe. Isn't there some compound you could move to where there are no internets?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:30 pm

Corth wrote:I'll let you have the last word on that one Sarvis.

I think you should adopt my BBS technique.

Enter a thread, state your position clearly, and let it go. You're not going to convince anyone here of anything, so why belabour yourself any longer than it takes to explain your opinion?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Oct 28, 2008 11:32 pm

I think I more or less agree with you Ragorn.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:06 pm

I've had gay friends and I treat gay people as individuals, the same way I treat anyone else. I am prejudiced towarsd hot bi chicks ;). But no I will never agree that its right. Philosophical disagreement does not equal homophobe. Are you a homophobeaphobe or do you just call people names when they disagree with your pov?

...

I agree that people often become teaches because they want to do good in society. This is part of their compensation, they get to do what they want to do. I read an interesting book once on jobs that earn you social status but don't pay very well like Teachers and Preachers. It focused on compensation and although the direct compensation for these positions does tend to be considered low, the indirect compensation is compelling. Also, discussed was the psychology and how its a way for these people to satisfy some need in their psyche. I'm not sure I agree that the compensation is low, but the social benefits and gifts can really make up for the pay. Just think about how much Walmart and Bill Gates spend to raise their social status.

Its funny how every teacher goes into the profession wanting to do good and then starts crying for a pay raise a couple years later. There is a surplus of teachers in Los Angeles. I know 4 credentialed teachers that can't get a position and have to get by on subbing (which pays ridiculously well). Its almost as bad as 18 yo dropouts who had 0 prospects outside of jail who enroll in the military, drink theirselves into a stupor and f everything in sight for 5 years then come back from some safe country like Japan with a puffed up chest about how they served their country and were underpaid.

...

I never had much respect for school. I learned what they put in front of me, followed the rules that were legitimate and flaunted the ones that they had no right to subject me to. I did alternative education on the side or sometimes during the school day; I pretty much did whatever I wanted. I fought against the one sided view points that I found were relatively common and went toe to toe with teachers and administrators in the principals office and at the school board meetings when they tried to force me to go along.

Disagreements not withstanding, I did have several memorable teachers which I kept in touch with over the years. McCraith in Latin which was more about philosophy and social discourse than Latin (extremely liberal but allowed real two sided discussions), Ellis in Computers and Schweitzer in Algebra I. I would stand in front of all 3 of them and say, why should we give all teachers a raise because you stand out? What skill do you have that justifies higher pay. Why should we pay you more when we already pay so much for your retirement? Why should we pay you more if your personality predisposes you to work for less than your market value?

Government employees should get as much done with as little as possible. The tax payers are not here to employ everyone at market rates.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:25 pm

kiryan wrote:Are you a homophobeaphobe or do you just call people names when they disagree with your pov?

Have you read any of Kifle's other posts?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:36 pm

Pril wrote:Yeah it sucks and yeah they don't get paid enough to deal with crap like that.


So... how much should garbage men get paid?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:38 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Teachers are underpaid by around $10,000. It is the most logical, rational number I've come up with in all my years of seeing what my friends do, doing what they do, etc. I feel the numbers used for teacher salaries are 20 years too old.

You're wrong on this Corth, and I back you up 90% of the time. People keep teaching because they LOVE TEACHING every day, regardless of the fact that they are getting paid a salary that doesn't reflect the energy spent or the long-term responsibilities of the vocation. I could go to public school and be paid more, but then we go back to my points in the other posts. I could teach less each day, grade less each day, and say that I'd do that to compensate for the amount they pay me. But I don't, because what I do is more important than what is paid to me; underpaid to me.


Loving your job is part of your compensation. Plain and simple. This is why jobs that people take that no one wants have to be paid more.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:39 pm

Corth wrote:Edit: Forgot to mention. All this and they work 180 days a year.


I only work about 90 days a year. Although, it would be really sweet if I didn't have to show up on the days I didn't really do anything.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:48 pm

A man has to do a couple of things to keep his family going and get through the day.

Act 1: Someone needs to teach my son science, but I'm too busy to do it myself.

"Hey, will you teach my son science?"
"Sure, I'd love to."
"How much? Is 18* dollars an hour ok?" (* all hourly wages are stated with benefits counted)
"Sure! Send your son over."

Act 2: Daddy/Mommy feels ill, need to see a doctor.

*cough, hack* "Doctor, would you see me for a sick visit?"
"Sure, I'd love to."
"How much? Is 18 dollars an hour ok?"
"... what?"
"Oh, sorry, I meant is 138 dollars an hour ok?"
"Sure! Bring yourself over."

Act 3: The family needs a contract drawn up for the sale of grandpa's old home.

"Lawyerman! I need a contract, would you be willing to do it?"
"Sure, I'd love to."
"How much? Is 138 dollars an hour ok?"
"Do I owe you some money or something?"
"Oh, no, nevermind. What is your usual rate?"
"My usual rate is about 322 dollars an hour, but you don't sound like you're feeling very well. It should be a simple contract, so I'll just charge you 300."

Act 4: At this point, our hero is a little tired of paying so much money to keep his family running and feels a little screwed.

"Aw man, at least I'm doing pretty good as an investment banker."
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Oct 29, 2008 5:56 pm

Kifle wrote:As an example: Lawyers that work pro bono. Is their time really worth nothing? One day they will be paid $100/h, but the next they will make $0/hr. How does this translate into your economic theory that people will work for as much as they think their time is worth? In this case you seem to produce a Schrodinger's Lawyer. The lawyer is in a superposition of states -- both worthless and expensive.


It's called generalization. Where you take a look at the time lawyers spend working and the average compensation they seek.

You know, what most people do looking at a large system, but I suspect you have little experience in that.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 11, 2008 5:57 pm

Oregon Public Broadcasting this morning:

Washington teachers are among the highest paid college graduates.

There was something else about a concern that they were starting to not keep up with other graduates.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:07 pm

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03498.html

Teachers in DC making 60k+.

School Chancellor floating a proposal to raise their pay 30-40k if they will give up tenure.

What I find interesting is that the proposal floated allows it to be optional, so wouldn't you just have high performing teachers going for the cash and low performing teachers hiding behind tenure?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 13, 2008 6:18 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/02/AR2008070203498.html

Teachers in DC making 60k+.

School Chancellor floating a proposal to raise their pay 30-40k if they will give up tenure.

What I find interesting is that the proposal floated allows it to be optional, so wouldn't you just have high performing teachers going for the cash and low performing teachers hiding behind tenure?



It's a step in the right direction, at least. Maybe with an opt-out tenure policy it would be easier to get rid of in the future?

Tenure sucks...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Fri Nov 14, 2008 5:58 am

kiryan wrote:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/02/AR2008070203498.html

Teachers in DC making 60k+.

School Chancellor floating a proposal to raise their pay 30-40k if they will give up tenure.

What I find interesting is that the proposal floated allows it to be optional, so wouldn't you just have high performing teachers going for the cash and low performing teachers hiding behind tenure?


DC is a high-risk area. Teachers should be compensated as such.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 14, 2008 7:18 pm

Do retail sales people in DC get compensated for their "high risk" or is it only union and government employees that need that compensation.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Fri Nov 14, 2008 8:31 pm

Valid point, but retail workers don't go to a 4 year university. Also, you have to also assume that teachers that go to high-risk areas don't do so because they are the best places to work. They will choose to go elsewhere; therefore, in order to attract workers who may have a very high option market (science/math), they must compensate as such. Although an extreme example, those who choose to work in Iraq for the reconstruction efforts get paid at a greatly inflated rate for the same work done here in America because of the associate and implied risks involved in the geography.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:27 pm

"Between 1955 and 1995, the ratio of students-to-teachers in elementary and secondary schools fell from 26.6 to 15 students per teacher, a 40 percent decline ... mainly growth in the pool of mainstream teachers, rather than those of administrators or special-education teachers."

Quantity over Quality
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The average teacher now teaches fewer children and are arguably less efficient. The slow rise in salary can be justified by that.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Sun Nov 16, 2008 12:13 am

teflor the ranger wrote:"Between 1955 and 1995, the ratio of students-to-teachers in elementary and secondary schools fell from 26.6 to 15 students per teacher, a 40 percent decline ... mainly growth in the pool of mainstream teachers, rather than those of administrators or special-education teachers."

Quantity over Quality
Darius Lakdawalla
Fall 2002 Education Next

The average teacher now teaches fewer children and are arguably less efficient. The slow rise in salary can be justified by that.



The average class size in Montgomery County, MD is 32 kids. The average in 2004 for the US was 23. Not sure where you got the 15 from Tef
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Sun Nov 16, 2008 3:21 pm

There's an unspoken rule on the fourms, Pril. You just broke it.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Sun Nov 16, 2008 5:17 pm

Kifle wrote:There's an unspoken rule on the fourms, Pril. You just broke it.


lol sorry man :p
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Sun Nov 16, 2008 6:03 pm

you're saying that because they are college educated, they are entitled to hazard pay for less than ideal circumstances when retail clerks who suffers the same or worse risks don't because of the lack of a degree? Is the pay based on the hazards or that it sounds like a good reason on paper to give another government / union employee more money?

There are some bad schools, and teachers do get killed once in a while in these bad schools and threatened a lot more, I still don't buy your Iraq analogy. Remember "going postal" a few years ago? Do postmen need hazard pay too because of the dangers of a coworker flipping out? When do you stop trying to compensate people for every possible thing and instead just let the folks who don't think its worth it move on. If you've ever managed you know that every employee thinks they are worth more money somewhere else and even the ones who are actually worth more money, aren't worth it to the company in their current role.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Sun Nov 16, 2008 9:08 pm

Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. Clerks are a dime a dozen. It is unskilled labor, and there will never be a shortage of those employees. Most stores in high risk areas also have some form of self-defense available to them as well -- such as guns behind the counter, security systems, bullet-proof glass; hell, many stores in downtown chicago are set up to where it is impossible to make human contact with the customer or possible assailant. True, this does not make them invulnerable, but, for some places to actually gain and retain workers, they provide them with extra protection (which costs quite a bit of money for some set-ups). You can see this as added cost in a close relation to extra wages.

Anyway, I kinda went on a tangent there. My point is, the market demands incentives for teachers, especially math/science, to work in these areas -- be it loan forgiveness or higher wages. For that same 60k starting you claim, I could have slept through college and gotten a business degree, or, as it's known at my school, the "I'm not smart enough to be anything but middle management" degree. So, if we're speaking in strict economic terms, the opportunity costs of a clerk and a college educated teacher are quite different, teachers in these areas are under arguably more prospective danger, and someone with a college degree, in this country, are worth more to the government and society than someone who works in a convenience store (SS payments after death).

As I said, the Iraq example was an extreme example, and I wasn't intending for it to describe parity in the situations; however, if you scale back the Iraq example, you will have the D.C. teaching situation.

Lastly, the "postal" example doesn't carry much relevance to this situation. "Postal" was a term used as a joke due to a very isolated set of events and is now nothing more than a joke. It became a joke not because it was a phenomena that was expected to become the "norm" but because it wasn't. Now, while the teacher killings that errupted years back continued to a small degree, and you would just be being teflorish if you tried to minimize their danger. Granted, they are not soldiers in war, but they are under a greater danger than, say, someone in middle management who makes 60-100k/yr (and has a much more important job at that).

Now, this is an even better question to be asking. Why do you make as much as you do in your line of work? What you do isn't necessarily difficult, and from I know about you, your market has been saturated. How do you justify your pay. For Corth as well, how do you justify your pay as a lawyer? A less applicable question: Why did GM's CEO make $14,415,914 last year?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 17, 2008 4:07 am

I make as much as I do because its the market wage for my job. I do the job I do because its convenient and pays enough to keep me comfortable. If it wasn't good enough pay, I would find another career.

I'm actually thinking about retraining a doctor so I have more options.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Mon Nov 17, 2008 6:13 am

kiryan wrote:I make as much as I do because its the market wage for my job. I do the job I do because its convenient and pays enough to keep me comfortable. If it wasn't good enough pay, I would find another career.

I'm actually thinking about retraining a doctor so I have more options.


If that is your answer, how can you not feel a bit silly arguing the wages of anyone? We can all just say it's their market wage. So, if we take the 60k DC teachers as market wage...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:12 am

I must've lost you somewhere.

Teachers have their starting wages and raises dictated by contracts negotiated by the unions generally under threat of work stoppage... How is that a market wages or market determination?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Mon Nov 17, 2008 12:54 pm

kiryan wrote:I must've lost you somewhere.

Teachers have their starting wages and raises dictated by contracts negotiated by the unions generally under threat of work stoppage... How is that a market wages or market determination?



Kiryan I'd check on this teachers don't have a legal right to strike. They can be hit with fines and not sure what else.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:21 pm

kiryan wrote:I must've lost you somewhere.

Teachers have their starting wages and raises dictated by contracts negotiated by the unions generally under threat of work stoppage... How is that a market wages or market determination?


If they don't think the work is worth that much, they could always let the teachers stop working. Seems they do think the work is worth that much, but they just didn't want to pay it.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Mon Nov 17, 2008 5:19 pm

kiryan wrote:I must've lost you somewhere.

Teachers have their starting wages and raises dictated by contracts negotiated by the unions generally under threat of work stoppage... How is that a market wages or market determination?

It is the same as OPEC threatening to slash output to "artificially" lower supply. There is no law saying you have to hire union workers.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Mon Nov 17, 2008 8:36 pm

kiryan wrote:I must've lost you somewhere.

Teachers have their starting wages and raises dictated by contracts negotiated by the unions generally under threat of work stoppage... How is that a market wages or market determination?


No, it just seems that in the course of the argument, you've overinflated your sense of market worth as opposed to lesser paying jobs. Somewhere along the line, you've figured the market fairly adjusts prices depending upon the job rather than there being any factors acting upon the market that may place an artificial value upon any labor sector -- aside from unionization.

Case-in-point, and this is not meant rhetorically: why is your job worth more? Aside from the precieved market value, what is it about your job that demands more pay than a teacher? Is what you've learned harder to grasp than, say, mathematics at the level of differential equations and fractals? Is there a scarcity in workers who are qualified to do what you do? Is what you've learned more important to the advancement of the human race? Is what you've learned tougher than quantum gravity?

It seems counterintuitive that someone working in an overly saturated market is relying on "market value" to determine their worth in the market. The law of scarcity and, additionally, supply and demand would say that their specializations are worth less than those of the group of workers operating in an environment characterized by limited supply of workers and high demand of a specific area of those workers.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:01 am

Teachers in Oregon have go on strike a few times. Then theres the whole sick outs. I'm sure they can be ordered back to work just like the president did to the airline workers in the 80s.

Actually, the unions get to represent positions and whomever ends up in the position is required to pay what is essentially union dues regardless of whether they actually join the union. The contract with the government generally stipulates what positions are going to be union and which ones are not. SO basically, the government can not make a new teaching position and have it be not a union position.

--

oh i see where you are going. is my work worth more, I don't know, in a philosophical sense I doubt it. Heres the difference, if I'm not making as much as I think I should, I'll find another job in a differnet career if necessary, not expect the government to pay me more because I'm doing something noble and important. Since there is an ample supply of teachers, there is no reason to pay them any more. If teachers want to make big money, they should go find a job that pays big money not argue that they deserve more because there job is so important. If a highly skilled and knowledgable person is underpaid in a teaching role and they don't feel like its worth it, then they should go find different jobs that pay better wages. One of my computer teachers did this, one of my electornics teachers did too, my latin teacher got fed up and went back to the vatican, my french teacher went back to france and yet thousands of kids in Oregon still manage to get an education and the tax payers avoid over paying even more than they already do.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:50 am

kiryan wrote:is my work worth more, I don't know, in a philosophical sense I doubt it. Heres the difference, if I'm not making as much as I think I should, I'll find another job in a differnet career if necessary, not expect the government to pay me more because I'm doing something noble and important.


Here's where your argument breaks down, I think. Your basic premise is not founded on actual benefit or fair pay -- it is actual pay and negligent of benefit. So, you're admitting that you are more than likely overpayed for your job, but you will take it and smile; and, since you've gotten yours, fuck everybody else because they didn't get as lucky as you to train in a field that has arbitrarily been picked by some fantastic power to recieve inflated wages.

And I want to key in on and emphasize "arbitrary." Because, when you really think about it, the wage system seemingly operates very arbitrarily. Sure, a degree will net you more income over a life-time, but to what extent seems to be randomized by the flavor of the month. So, right now, systems security admins, lawyers, and doctors take advantage of this system while teachers, QA testers, and logistics supervisors (to a degree) get shat on. Truthfully, there is no argument otherwise.

To say that job A is worth more than job B is based off of personal bias; ultimately, it is nothing more than a value statement. Therefore, on can, with little relevancy or credibility, only state that one job is paid a certain wage -- not that those wages are fair or compensatory in relation to the work performed. "Market Value," then, is an empty term. It is a term that the overpaid use to justify their large incomes and allows them to relieve themselves of guilt (for those that are still human) created by the disparity of their incomes and of those who are equally or better educated who get paid less -- far less. I will go so far as to say that "market value" is nothing more than this generation's "divine right of kings." They are equally unfounded, arbitrary, and empty and are used to justify iniquity and dominance.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:58 am

Its a whole lot less arbitrary when you think in terms of supply and demand and realize that nobody in this country is forced to work any particular job.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:41 am

Corth wrote:Its a whole lot less arbitrary when you think in terms of supply and demand and realize that nobody in this country is forced to work any particular job.



Yes, starvation and homelessness are always an option!

You can't always just switch jobs, or get the one you really want Corth. It's just not that simple.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:19 am

Corth wrote:Its a whole lot less arbitrary when you think in terms of supply and demand and realize that nobody in this country is forced to work any particular job.


This doesn't answer the dilema offered by the wage scenerio I've been talking about here. In fact, it side-steps it clumsily.

I'll give you some hypothetical math:
1% of people can be doctors -- that is the market maximum
1% of people can be laywers -- market maximum
.5% CEO
.5% business owner
25% can be somewhere in management
15% in the computer industry
5% education
50% unskilled/service industry
2.5% unemployed

Granted, this doesn't even closely resemble the labor gradient, but it is useful in displaying my point: there are not enough jobs to "choose what you want to do." Eventually, there is a breaking-point of every labor sector -- it is simple logic. Refute it... seriously. If you take up one point of this post, refute that one at least.

Given this limited number of positions, there is a very high amount that must be in the unskilled/service industry. There will always be unemployment -- the objective is to minimize this number. Give these simple, intuitive facts, how can you cling to that outdated maxim?

Lets say everybody in this country goes to lawschool and becomes lawyers. Who the fuck do we sue to get money? Sure, there are specializations, but, Christ, someone is going out of business. In fact, most of us are going out of business. We can't all be lawyers. It is a mathematical impossibility. So, the rest become doctors. By this time, most of us are roughly 28. With 99% of the population able to self-diagnose with accuracy and perscribe our own medacine, most of us will also go out of business. Hell, there's no medication to perscribe because nobody knows how to make the shit because we're all lawyers and doctors. Well, the market can't sustain that many doctors either, so most of us just wasted the last 11 years of school.

Then the rest of us want to be high-paid CEOs. Well, we all go get our 2yr MBAs. We're 30 at this point, up to our asses in student-loan debt, and nobody has a job except for the best lawyers and the best doctors. The best business minds keep the CEO jobs, and the rest need to go specialize even furthur; so, we pick our 4th most desireable job... extrapolate this at will, but you will always come up to the same conclusion: THERE AREN'T ENOUGH FUCKING JOBS. So, at some point, you will have to concede that your maxim is utter shit with a foundation of even more liquid shit being stirred by a nasty shit monster in a cauldron made of shit. The fact is, people are forced to work jobs, but that selection of people is mostly arbitrary. Some people have trust funds, some people take advantage of affirmative action, some people study their asses off, some people sleep with professors. Then there are some people that study their asses off and get accepted to Cornel but can't afford the tuition; there are some people that work twice as hard but don't have the mental faculties to perform at a certain level; there are some people who have children and have been laid off in what was said to be a stable market. I could go on.

And, even if you don't want to do this mind experiment, see Sarvis' post. Why can't you just admit you perform a task that the average person, with enough studying, could do, and you are taking advantage of an overly complicated legal system in order to net a nice profit? You may be talented and smart, but I know some damn retarded lawyers.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 18, 2008 1:02 pm

You provided a list of the maximum saturation for some given professions. So what happens if you get too many of any given profession? Wages decrease. Happily, people leave that profession to do something more lucrative. Or more accurately, if there were too many unemployed struggling lawyers, chances are people would decide not to attend 7 years of school minimum to become one in the first place.

If everyone was a CEO, the unskilled laborer would be making a ton of loot, and there would be a lot of unemployed CEO's :)

Wages are the way that the market allocates human resources. It creates an incentive to do something if there are not enough people doing it, and a disincentive to doing something if too many people are doing it.

How would you prefer to allocate resources? Quotas? Perhaps a committee should hold hearings to determine how many people we should allow into a given profession.

It seems to me that a better way is to simply allow market forces to push people into professions that are in demand. The societal benefit of that is enormous.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Pril » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:56 pm

Corth wrote:You provided a list of the maximum saturation for some given professions. So what happens if you get too many of any given profession? Wages decrease. Happily, people leave that profession to do something more lucrative. Or more accurately, if there were too many unemployed struggling lawyers, chances are people would decide not to attend 7 years of school minimum to become one in the first place.

If everyone was a CEO, the unskilled laborer would be making a ton of loot, and there would be a lot of unemployed CEO's :)

Wages are the way that the market allocates human resources. It creates an incentive to do something if there are not enough people doing it, and a disincentive to doing something if too many people are doing it.

How would you prefer to allocate resources? Quotas? Perhaps a committee should hold hearings to determine how many people we should allow into a given profession.

It seems to me that a better way is to simply allow market forces to push people into professions that are in demand. The societal benefit of that is enormous.


Your whole theory is based on a falsehood Corth. You are assuming that ANYONE can be a lawyer or doctor or CEO or a laborer. The fact is that many people aren't smart enough to be lawyers or doctors or CEO's. And many people couldn't find their way around a work bench if their life depended on it. And many people aren't artistic enough to be a designer or artist. Not everyone is equal and not everyone can do ANY job.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:28 pm

Corth wrote:You provided a list of the maximum saturation for some given professions. So what happens if you get too many of any given profession? Wages decrease. Happily, people leave that profession to do something more lucrative. Or more accurately, if there were too many unemployed struggling lawyers, chances are people would decide not to attend 7 years of school minimum to become one in the first place.


Except that we're talking about a 7 year gap between the decision and the unemployed struggling lawyers. You make the decision long before it's apparent that there are too many lawyers, and then you're stuck with training you can't use, too educated to take menial jobs because they'll (rightly) expect you to move on quickly AND most likely a ton of debt racked up paying for that training. GO MARKET!

If everyone was a CEO, the unskilled laborer would be making a ton of loot, and there would be a lot of unemployed CEO's :)


There are simply not enough CEO positions available for everyone to be a CEO. There are PLENTY of people with MBAs though, who could certainly be CEOs... so why exactly are CEOs paid so much when there's thousands of MBA holding middle managers chomping at the bit?

Wages are the way that the market allocates human resources.


No, wages are the way managers allocate a budget. There is no difference to a manager between a person and a computer, except that Dell can dictate how much the computer will cost.

It creates an incentive to do something if there are not enough people doing it, and a disincentive to doing something if too many people are doing it.


Too bad anything complex takes years of preparation.

How would you prefer to allocate resources? Quotas? Perhaps a committee should hold hearings to determine how many people we should allow into a given profession.


So your stance is that everything is perfectly allocated right now because of the magical free hand?

It seems to me that a better way is to simply allow market forces to push people into professions that are in demand. The societal benefit of that is enormous.


The societal benefit of hundreds of people spending 7 years training for jobs that go away when they graduate is enormous? The societal benefit of people going into high demand fields DESPITE a complete lack of talent in those fields is enormous?

We must have a very different definition of "benefit."
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:12 pm

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122697315476635963.html

For years, state and local politicians have bought support from public sector unions by promising big benefits. Over time these promises exert severe pressure on their budgets. A study three years ago by the Employee Benefit Research Institute estimated that the average public sector worker earns 46% more in total compensation than his counterpart in the private sector, largely because government employers spend 60% more per worker on benefits than counterparts in the private sector.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:19 pm

Corth, I think you are a very smart man, otherwise you wouldn't be as successful as you are in a tough job market. I agree with you 100% that supply and demand works for tangibles such as gas prices, housing, prices on things you can hold n your hand. For job marketing and the like there are too many human (haha) factors, this is one area that is NOT black and white.

For those that keep quoting "well in my area teachers get paid this or that" different areas will pay different salaries depending on cost of living .. An inner city teacher wont get paid higher education salaries .. You see this in ALL job markets. Heck I am a Help desk tech who hears salaries in all states for our cashiers .. Cashiers in California start out at 8.50 and higher simply because of cost of living .. In our area they are lucky to get 7.00. Let's take something near and dear to my heart .. Military pay. Base salary was always the same, but the extra pays differed by region .. The sailor stationed in Ca made more simply because of cost of living ..
I don't see teacher salaries as that much different, varies by region, but then again, I am not a teacher. Are any of us teachers besides Juan?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:38 pm

Did they actually make more if it was a cost of living adjustment? They supposedly make the same.

I'm not complaining about a teacher in NY making 100k a year when it costs over a million for a house. I'm talking about teachers and more so the public who blindly accepts that "teachers are chronically underpaid" simply because they teach and irrespective of the reality of their amazing benefits. If there are enough people willing to teach at the current wage, then they are not underpaid. I know unemployed credentialed teachers who can't get a job because there are too many teachers (and too many tenured teachers).

Kifle and Sarvis

You're arguing micro policy vs macro. In an individual sense, someone is always getting get a raw deal some teacher or some district is underpaying. But, you have to look at a macro level though, the market basis for wages... and you have to expect people to make individual choices based on what is good for them and to suffer when they make poor choices.

If you're the kind of person who gets sick from worry that you might lose your job, a teaching job with a union may be worth more to you than a job with a startup paying 2x as much. That is compensation in a sorts. My problem is when that person then goes and says, I make 50% as much as I should just because government can always raise taxes to pay for it.

People don't take enough responsibility for their own affairs. They expect their job to be there as long as they want it. They expect their industry to be there. I spent the early part of my career diversifying so that I have job options and I made less as a result. The whole idea that the industry could change directions and leave me without a job was a risk I wouldn't accept. I feel that I am in a better position to support my family long term now and I'm looking into becoming a doctor for some of the same reasons + the flexibility to immigrate to another country if this one goes to hell.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby avak » Tue Nov 18, 2008 7:50 pm

Interesting discussion. One thing I would add is that it seems like there should be more clarification for how teacher salaries are determined in different areas of the country. In a rural state, like the area where I live, property taxes based on ag value fund the majority of the school budget. Therefore, there is not some endless coffer of money that can be tapped. In fact, schools in my area are often faced with consolidation and yes, very low wages comparatively.

I'd also add that pay and compensation are different things. Someone may well choose to work in a rural school district for a low monetary salary because of any number of other benefits. These can be benefits provided by the employer or self-realized benefits.

And finally, the laisezz faire concept being forcefully pushed here is dependent on two huge (usually absent) assumptions: perfect information and fluidity.

I brought this up once in this thread already, so maybe people don't find it that accurate or useful. I think the complexity of the discussion is due to a value question. "Are teachers underpaid or not?" can be looked at through the market forces lens...yes, teachers can just go get a different job....therefore they cannot be 'underpaid' technically....or at least not in a meaningful way. Ironically, I think that it cuts both ways though....if a teacher cannot be underpaid, they cannot be overpaid...which would suggest some rhetorical issues for some of you.

Secondly, there is the values question, "Are teachers underpaid or not?" Should teachers be paid more because they are the tool with which we create a innovative and productive society? I would say so. This is a fundamental point on which free market capitalism starts to cannibalize itself. Capitalism struggles to make sound long term investment because of the drive to make lucrative short term gains.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 18, 2008 8:44 pm

I'm curious how Kifle and Sarvis would, in their perfect world, allocate human resources. Would you impose requirements on the private sector to pay a minimum wage based upon the profession, location, etc? Would you impose those requirements on local governments? Just curious how the arguments you two are making translate into real world policy. What changes would you make if you were president and had a willing Congress?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:51 pm

Finland and Korea beat us in every single category of education. We came in like 17th in the BEST category for the USA, otherwise we were in the 20s. Is this because they have better parents than we do? Or is it because they VALUE education more than we do now? Is it because they teach in more meaningful ways/teach more meaningful material?

My private school beats the national norms on SATS, Math/Verbal scores, you name it, by a significant amount each year. The national public school education system blows horse pipi. Perhaps in some areas the public schools are better than private schools, and in others the opposite. But from my own experience here, private schools > public schools. I'll agree with Kiryan, we tend to have parents more interested in their kids' education. But many of these same parents do not teach their children anything at home, they just instill the value of a getting a good education in their children.

If we don't value education, then keeping the current "we'll pay you the minimum you'll work for" is fine. If we value education, and making our future leaders/scientists/professionals the best equipped around the world, then we need to:

#1 - Increase teacher pay, say by $10k.
#2 - Increase teacher base requirements.
#3 - Increase teacher accountability.
#4 - Eliminate bullshit subject matter from schools. Increase discipline in schools. Increase graduation/grade level graduation requirements.
Expel garbage.
#5 - Failing students MUST repeat the grade.

Etc. There's too many.

I'm tired of writing, but there's more...
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:24 am

Corth wrote:I'm curious how Kifle and Sarvis would, in their perfect world, allocate human resources. Would you impose requirements on the private sector to pay a minimum wage based upon the profession, location, etc? Would you impose those requirements on local governments? Just curious how the arguments you two are making translate into real world policy. What changes would you make if you were president and had a willing Congress?


You realize this is a bit of a straw man right? Even if I don't come up with a solution to an issue that's plagued mankind since money was invented it won't prove that people are paid what they are worth, nor that our current system is anywhere near ideal.

Still though, I'll give it some thought.

You know, in between playing Fallout 3, playing Fallout, working and sleeping. :P

No comments on CEOs being paid so much when there are thousands of people with MBAs who are shooting for the job? Or would that mean admitting there's more going on than supply & demand?
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 19, 2008 2:02 am

You can talk about whatever you want Sarvis, you don't need permission.

My question specifically is what policy initiatives you would take if you were president and had a congress willing to rubber stamp your suggestions.

The reason I ask is that I seem to always be advocating a specific way of doing things, and while I know essentially what your views and positions are, I have no idea specifically what policies you would promote. I think its only fair if we're going to have these debates that you put forth a specific objective so at least we're talking about the same thing.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Gormal » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:47 am

If you're dumb enough to pay for a master's degree so you can apply for a job that you consider underpaid then you're an idiot.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:50 pm

Gormal wrote:If you're dumb enough to pay for a master's degree so you can apply for a job that you consider underpaid then you're an idiot.


The master's degree will actually make the pay manageable after the loans are paid off. Around here, a master's degree is worth roughly 20k/yr starting out. At the school I attend, the master's degree will cost me roughly 15k (terminal masters program with no phd program to subsidize). And the way it is set up, you get a second bachelors before you "graduate," so you're able to get a job before the master's instead of pricing yourself out.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby Kifle » Wed Nov 19, 2008 1:20 pm

Corth wrote:I'm curious how Kifle and Sarvis would, in their perfect world, allocate human resources. Would you impose requirements on the private sector to pay a minimum wage based upon the profession, location, etc? Would you impose those requirements on local governments? Just curious how the arguments you two are making translate into real world policy. What changes would you make if you were president and had a willing Congress?


I think human resources can't be "allocated" any better than they are here -- unless you take the root cause (education) into consideration. Either way, I would find a better way than AA to equalize the job market with respect to racism. After education, however, I don't see a problem. If you're not qualified, you don't get a job. If you worked less in school, you get beat out in the market by people that didn't waste their time.

Minimum wages? Yes. I think the government is here to protect the intrests of its people. Those interests start with subsitance of minimal living -- hence, minimum wage. Cost of living is different due to location; thus, minimum wages should be adjusted as such. It is rediculous to think that McDonalds is paying two people the same starting wages when a McDonalds in California is, on average, making $200k (hypothetical number) more than a McDonalds in Nebraska. It is greedy business practice, and the government shouldn't allow it. To me, and I understand this is a personal value (although it should be universal), this is no different than the government protecting people through the police system -- except the dangers protected from attack different aspects of the individual.

Local governments, yes, for the same reasons as federal governments. I understand that states should be offered a certain amount of autonomy; however, this is one country. This country was founded on certain principles, and those principles should not be degraded based upon an imaginary line separating one person from another who may live 5 feet from each other. We can argue all day over how one should read the constitution, but I think I'm in a much better position to divine certain things from it based upon my past education and my lack of incentive to speak otherwise.

The last question is tricky, and I don't think I'm educated enough in the micromanagement of a country; however, the base ideas are there and would work given the knowledge to impliment them. And this assessment is not based solely off of intiuition. I know how basic macroeconomics operates. To be completely honest, I'm not sure how one could rectify the current situation in this country. The fake version of capitalism we've allowed to exist in this country has become too ingrained in our cultural views to be safely separated at this point. And beyond that, I think it has become a world problem at this point; so, I'm positive that any "new" government that sprang up would have a chance at defeating the problem either. If one tried, the economy would suffer as no business would have incentive to operate from within the new country's boarders. So, in short, I can't really answer that questiong with a realistic answer. If you want me to propose a mind experiment in a "new world," I can humor you I suppose.

As far as fixable things, I agree almost completely with Adriorn -- except for the teacher accountability. That point would have to be very carefully tuned and be a "work in progress." Not saying there should be "no" accountability, but what they should be accountable for is highly subjective depending on the locations of operation.

If you read nothing else:
Corth, I believe there are two different outlooks operating here, but I don't think it is simply "idealists" vs. "realists." I think it is a bit more sinister than that. On one hand, you have the "realists" wanting to operate in the current system regardless of its ethical implications -- you/Kyrian have gotten "lucky" (but I don't want this to be seen as regular luck. You did work for what you have, but at some point, you must agree there is luck involved in success in this country. That can be debated, but it will be an uphill battle for you). Because of these events, the free-market looks more attractive to you -- because it is an attractive philosophy: If I work hard, I get what I want. If I don't work hard, I don't get what I want. The problem here, is that you project your success and your failures on the population en masse denying that there are situations where your actions wouldn't have led to success.

Then there is the second group of people. The ones that had major setbacks in their "llife plans" and have eventually realized that the disparity between incomes, the level of societal benefit that is attatched to certain jobs, etc. bring with them ethical implications that do not bode well for those operating in the system. Sarvis, he was bitten by a job market that shrank considerably when he got out of school. He sees the flaw because it happend to him. It has made him think about the other flaws and is now empathetic to those who fall between the cracks. Me, well, I did a lot of stupid shit and got a degree that is useless outside of academia or graduate school. I went back to school and have had to put my comfortability on hold for a while longer; however, I will get it because I can work within the system as well; I just don't like it.

In short, bad enough shit just hasn't happened to you or kyrian to actually be disgusted by the system we live in... not just live in, but are forced to operate in. I didn't choose to be born here rather than Canada. People in N. Korea didn't choose to be born there. Black people didn't choose to be colored differently than anyone else; however, all of this stuff happend because of luck. Damn, felt another tangent coming on... I have to go now, but I hope you get my point. When something bad enough happens to you, you'll finally notice the glaring discrepencies between fair capitalism and lopsided capitalism that favors a certain class, and, for that matter, requires class distinction much like the feudal system.
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 5:51 pm

Adriorn,

Asian parents are extremely particular about education and generally sacrifice a great deal to give their kids a good education. This is in contrast to American parents who in general put more emphasis on theirselves. Its like comparing a nation of private school parents with a nation of rural hillbillies. It is not a product of their school systems or teachers, its a product of their culture and their parenting and we can thank the 60s for our problems. There was a good article in national news recently about asians overrunning a school district and that they won't get engaged with the school in bake sales and school spirit stuff. They only come down to the school if their kid gets an A-.

#1, why do teachers need more pay. Because paying them more will obviously result in a better education? Prove it. Prove it with the reality of unions and tenure.
#2, why increase the base requirements. how does this result in kids learning more when its primarily an issue of parenting?
#3, I agree that we need to increase teacher accountability. There are some teachers that should be doing more.
#4, Definitely agree we could curtail BS especially for students who aren't making it. Not sure we agree what is BS, I'll throw dance, cheer leading, art, music, drama, student government and foreign language on my list. I'm not saying any of these are bad, but I'd prefer not to pay for them and I don't think kids who are failing in English, Math and Science should have the option to participate.
#5, I don't know that I agree with students needing to repeat grades.. you don't fail a grade you fail a subject. If you fail 4h grade math, should you repeat 4th grade reading, history, ect or go onto 5th grade and be pulled out for 4th grade math?
kiryan
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Re: Are teachers underpaid or not?

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 19, 2008 6:19 pm

Government regulation creates problems and it starts with the erosion of personal responsibility for you and your family. You don't have to plan for the future because the government is going to take care of everything. Going to make sure you have living wages, going to make sure you have health care, going to make sure you have a house, going to make sure you can borrow money, going to give you money if you have a disabled child, going to give you social security if you can't hold a job, going to give you unemployment so you don't have to save, going to bail out the stock market, your company, your union so you don't lose your retirement.

Government is our problem and as government continues to take more and more responsibility for our personal life, there will be lower and lower quality of life, more restrictions and higher taxes.

The government is not supposed to take care of us individually. Its supposed to provide protection from foreign invasion so we can take live our own lives in the pursuit of happiness.

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