Worst Case scenario

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Sarvis
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:11 pm

kiryan wrote:There are exceptions to everything.

The question is do you build frameworks and take elaborate steps to prepare for and accept every exception?

or do you just treat exceptions as such.

There are exceptions, but that does not mean we must not or should not openly discriminate.


Who's talking about frameworks? I'm saying you should actually use your brain, rather than just your eyes to judge something. You believe anyone who walks up with a tattoo is not worth hiring. That has nothing at all to do with frameworks. It just has to do with your own prejudice, and you shouldn't need a framework to work around that when judging whether someone can be useful.

You're blind. You'll miss talented people, and install sheep who do nothing. You'll have tons of people in suits doing the minimum work, not creating anything, and making sure they follow every rule to the letter. These are NOT the type of people that go above and beyond, they are the type that do everything their job description states and nothing more.

You can have them.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yes, TONS of innovation comes from people who make sure they wear their collar tabs. Not from people like Albert Einstein who didn't bother with haircuts. Nope. Only conformists contribute to society. Anyone who thinks or acts differently should just be shot to save time.


Ben Franklin was as status quo as they come. In fact, he created the status quo for his time with his autobiography. Carl Sagan got haircuts. Stephen Hawking, while he was in grad school and wasn't relegated to a wheelchair wasn't eccentric. Reagan? Haircuts. Locke? Normal guy. Plato, Aristotle, hell, most of the famous greeks -- they were aristocrats. The amount of people who were "different" are a very small minority in the innovative class. Most people who have scientific breakthroughs these days went to MIT and played the game. The only group of people who were largely crazy were the artists -- and even they were crazy in private for the most part -- Dickenson, Woolf, etc.

The bottom line is this: whoever gets ink or metal either accept the risks they take to their careers and shouldn't moan, or they were too stupid to think of the risks to their careers and shouldn't get the job over someone who's tried hard to not make career-challenging mistakes. It was a personal choice, the stereotype is out there, and they should have planned accordingly. How far do you want to take this PC bullshit anyway? Should we allow furries to come into a job wearing their animal constumes? ZOMG THEY'RE DIFFERENT! THEY WILL RETHINK THE PHYSICAL UNIVERSE! Probably not.

Kwirl,

I never said I didn't like you, but in this argument, you're clearly sacrificing objectivity for personal bias. Like I said before, I've got a bit of work done myself, but I was smart enough to think of the future. People who get work done should do the same. If not, they will more than likely suffer the consequences.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yes, TONS of innovation comes from people who make sure they wear their collar tabs.


You have no idea, do you?

Sarvis wrote:I'm saying you should actually use your brain, rather than just your eyes to judge something.


They're linked for a reason.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Dec 23, 2008 8:56 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:If there is a dress code and somebody breaks it regularly, they are disrespecting the organization and their peers.


Or they just think dress codes are silly, and that their actual work should be considered more important. At least, that's what I think. Plus I've never found a comfortable pair of dress shoes.


And there you go, you just made the point, yourself. The guidelines that have been set out for you in order to get or maintain a position within the organization are "silly" to you, which is what you tell your management and peers very loudly every time you disregard them. What this says loud and clear is that if you don't like the rules, you won't follow them. While there are exceptions to the rule, and the organization you are in may very well be one, the general rule is that if an employee will do this in one situation, he is generally more likely to do this in other situations. An attitude like this is a liability in many organizations, because it impacts every aspect of business, including ethics.

What employers tend to prefer in an employee is not one who flaunts their rule-breaking, but one who will abide by the guidelines, even if they disagree with them, while working toward a positive change.

The people who accomplish greatness in this world aren't the ones who break minor rules and have excuses ready for why they do... they're the ones who really go out on a limb, striving to make significant changes in the world, struggling against the odds, often suffering for their own beliefs in order to make an impact that will create an atmosphere for social inspiration or upheaval. I hope you're not comparing your refusal to wear business attire because you can't find the perfect pair of shoes with the lives of Socrates, Rosa Parks, Joan De'Arc, or any of the others throughout history who annoyed the pee out of people around them in order to follow their beliefs. In order to justify the whole 'people who break away from the norm are the ones who really make a difference' schtick, you have to be striving toward actually making a difference, not indulging yourself with passive aggression.



Wait, did you just use Rosa Parks as an example of someone who accomplished social change without breaking the rules? Because... well, I'm pretty sure she broke the rules to get her point across. Exactly what I'm talking about, really.


Ashiwi wrote:aren't the ones who break minor rules


I mean, really.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:04 pm

Kifle wrote:Ben Franklin was as status quo as they come. In fact, he created the status quo for his time with his autobiography.


If he created a status quo he was not following the previous one, was he?

Carl Sagan got haircuts.


He was also a proponent of pot, and was quoted as saying God couldn't match what the church thought of him as. Hardly status quo for his time, regardless of his haircut.

Stephen Hawking, while he was in grad school and wasn't relegated to a wheelchair wasn't eccentric.


Here's what his physics tutor has to say: "It was only necessary for him to know that something could be done, and he could do it without looking to see how other people did it. ... He didn’t have very many books, and he didn’t take notes. Of course, his mind was completely different from all of his contemporaries."

Not taking notes hardly sounds like a respectable upstanding student. Actually, it sounds like me in college...

Reagan? Haircuts.


Yeah, I'll give you a senile old man who came up with the worst economic ideas in history. Until Bush at least.

Locke? Normal guy. Plato, Aristotle, hell, most of the famous greeks -- they were aristocrats.


Aristocrats make rules, they don't follow them. Kind of the point of being one, really.


The amount of people who were "different" are a very small minority in the innovative class.


Sounds more like the minority is Reagan, who sucked.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:Ben Franklin was as status quo as they come. In fact, he created the status quo for his time with his autobiography.


If he created a status quo he was not following the previous one, was he?

Carl Sagan got haircuts.


He was also a proponent of pot, and was quoted as saying God couldn't match what the church thought of him as. Hardly status quo for his time, regardless of his haircut.

Stephen Hawking, while he was in grad school and wasn't relegated to a wheelchair wasn't eccentric.


Here's what his physics tutor has to say: "It was only necessary for him to know that something could be done, and he could do it without looking to see how other people did it. ... He didn’t have very many books, and he didn’t take notes. Of course, his mind was completely different from all of his contemporaries."

Not taking notes hardly sounds like a respectable upstanding student. Actually, it sounds like me in college...

Reagan? Haircuts.


Yeah, I'll give you a senile old man who came up with the worst economic ideas in history. Until Bush at least.

Locke? Normal guy. Plato, Aristotle, hell, most of the famous greeks -- they were aristocrats.


Aristocrats make rules, they don't follow them. Kind of the point of being one, really.


The amount of people who were "different" are a very small minority in the innovative class.


Sounds more like the minority is Reagan, who sucked.



Nothing from what you said implies or even suggests that they didn't follow the vast majority of the rules most of the time. I also seem to recall that these men all dressed normally.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Dec 23, 2008 9:11 pm

Sarvis,

I can only guess that your prejudice is what is preventing you from being able to see a guy that can be innovative and unique that still wears collar tabs and dress shoes.

Stop being such a bigot?

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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ambar » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:09 pm

I think Sarvis needs a hug .. who's going to volunteer?

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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kiryan » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:19 pm

I don't need talented people. I generally need people who fill the role that needs filled.

Talented people are incredibly difficult to manage, get focused and keep long term. If you are a sales manager or a creative director you want talented people. If you work in shipping and receiving, you don't need talent. Sales order entry, no talent required. Accounting... don't need talent. If you work in most facets of IT you're "talent" isn't needed. There are very few jobs where you need "talent". Most of time you need someone who can work well with others to achieve normal no talent required goals. Ever heard of too many cooks in the kitchen?

What you don't realize is that for every talented wierdo, there are a dozen talented people who prescribe to normalacy.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Tue Dec 23, 2008 10:43 pm

Sarvis, I'm going to pretend you didn't just make that reply to my examples. I like to think of you as intelligent, but good fucking god, sir, those are possibly the worst "points" I have ever seen in a serious online discussion -- ever. And if you truly think that any of what you wrote in that post somehow vindicates your "innovation comes from oddballs" theory, I think I may have to readjust my opinion of your intellectual capacity. I think I'll just assume you were grasping at straws there... wow. Just, wow.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Tue Dec 23, 2008 11:39 pm

Kifle wrote:Sarvis, I'm going to pretend you didn't just make that reply to my examples. I like to think of you as intelligent, but good fucking god, sir, those are possibly the worst "points" I have ever seen in a serious online discussion -- ever. And if you truly think that any of what you wrote in that post somehow vindicates your "innovation comes from oddballs" theory, I think I may have to readjust my opinion of your intellectual capacity. I think I'll just assume you were grasping at straws there... wow. Just, wow.


Yeah, ok. So you get to use drug users as an example of completely normal people who follow the rules and I'm the one grasping at straws? REally? Come on man, find someone who _actually_ isn't eclectic that made some huge contribution to society. You're attempting to prove that people who follow ALL THE RULES are the ones who do this, yet you only posted people who do not follow the rules. Except for Ben Franklin who followed them only because he made them.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:26 am

Jeez.. we're talking about employment. Not many 9 to 5 joe six packs are going to change the world or quite honestly, do anything remarkable. Doing something remarkable.. those are the people that formed the company giving Joe six pack his job. Along with university acamdemic types, athletes, and maybe a few politicians. If joe six pack wants to keep his 9 to 5 job, he will do what his boss tells him to. Thats about all there is to say on this subject...

Bring the flames!
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Wed Dec 24, 2008 2:39 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:Sarvis, I'm going to pretend you didn't just make that reply to my examples. I like to think of you as intelligent, but good fucking god, sir, those are possibly the worst "points" I have ever seen in a serious online discussion -- ever. And if you truly think that any of what you wrote in that post somehow vindicates your "innovation comes from oddballs" theory, I think I may have to readjust my opinion of your intellectual capacity. I think I'll just assume you were grasping at straws there... wow. Just, wow.


Yeah, ok. So you get to use drug users as an example of completely normal people who follow the rules and I'm the one grasping at straws? REally? Come on man, find someone who _actually_ isn't eclectic that made some huge contribution to society. You're attempting to prove that people who follow ALL THE RULES are the ones who do this, yet you only posted people who do not follow the rules. Except for Ben Franklin who followed them only because he made them.


Seriously Sarvis, take a moment to see the actual comparison you're trying to draw here... Carl Sagan, who smoke occasional refer, is not somebody who "didn't follow the rules." Ben Franklin didn't "make the rules," he followed the ones that were there, wrote a book about it, and people started using him as an example to raise their children. He is the archetype "american." Hawking... somebody who doesn't take notes is "going against the grain?" Seriously. Shit, I guess 90% of college students are fucking rebels now, eh? Better call in the national guard so shit doesn't get out of hand with all these non-note taking bastards don't destroy campus! As for the aristocrats, they don't make the rules. Those were called senators. Aristocrats were just the upper crust. They followed the rules. Good try though?

Seriously, your "examples" of how these people were "different" are just plain lame. You grasped at straws, and you're still trying to keep that sandy foundation from slipping into the ocean. It's not going to work. You can polish a turd, but it's still going to be a turd.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:38 am

Corth wrote:Jeez.. we're talking about employment. Not many 9 to 5 joe six packs are going to change the world or quite honestly, do anything remarkable. Doing something remarkable.. those are the people that formed the company giving Joe six pack his job. Along with university acamdemic types, athletes, and maybe a few politicians. If joe six pack wants to keep his 9 to 5 job, he will do what his boss tells him to. Thats about all there is to say on this subject...

Bring the flames!



Right, if you want your company filled with people who have to be forced to think outside the box then make sure you hire the most uniformly dressed people possible.

Then wonder why your industry needs a bailout because you're not coming up with any innovations.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:41 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:Sarvis, I'm going to pretend you didn't just make that reply to my examples. I like to think of you as intelligent, but good fucking god, sir, those are possibly the worst "points" I have ever seen in a serious online discussion -- ever. And if you truly think that any of what you wrote in that post somehow vindicates your "innovation comes from oddballs" theory, I think I may have to readjust my opinion of your intellectual capacity. I think I'll just assume you were grasping at straws there... wow. Just, wow.


Yeah, ok. So you get to use drug users as an example of completely normal people who follow the rules and I'm the one grasping at straws? REally? Come on man, find someone who _actually_ isn't eclectic that made some huge contribution to society. You're attempting to prove that people who follow ALL THE RULES are the ones who do this, yet you only posted people who do not follow the rules. Except for Ben Franklin who followed them only because he made them.


Seriously Sarvis, take a moment to see the actual comparison you're trying to draw here... Carl Sagan, who smoke occasional refer, is not somebody who "didn't follow the rules." Ben Franklin didn't "make the rules," he followed the ones that were there, wrote a book about it, and people started using him as an example to raise their children. He is the archetype "american." Hawking... somebody who doesn't take notes is "going against the grain?" Seriously. Shit, I guess 90% of college students are fucking rebels now, eh? Better call in the national guard so shit doesn't get out of hand with all these non-note taking bastards don't destroy campus! As for the aristocrats, they don't make the rules. Those were called senators. Aristocrats were just the upper crust. They followed the rules. Good try though?

Seriously, your "examples" of how these people were "different" are just plain lame. You grasped at straws, and you're still trying to keep that sandy foundation from slipping into the ocean. It's not going to work. You can polish a turd, but it's still going to be a turd.


Doing illegal drugs is following the rules? Really? Do I need to continue.

As for aristocrats... yeah, they didn't follow the rules even if they didn't make them. Senators? How many politicians have been caught breaking the very rules they are proponents of? From prostitutes to drug use to gay bathroom sex...

Rules are only for people who don't matter. That attitude is very much American.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:46 am

I could make a strong argument that "innovation" in the financial industry actually created the need for bailouts so don't go too far with worshipping out of the box thinking.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:51 am

Lathander wrote:I could make a strong argument that "innovation" in the financial industry actually created the need for bailouts so don't go too far with worshipping out of the box thinking.


Maybe if more middle managers had asked questions rather than just following orders...
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:55 am

There's an important saying: when you are in the boat, you don't rock it.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Wed Dec 24, 2008 8:38 am

God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:53 pm

Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:56 pm

Hilariously, this thread was handled some six to nine odd posts ago, but ignorance prevents some from being able to observe as much.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Wed Dec 24, 2008 1:58 pm

if most of us are reading this, it is because we probably don't have anything better to do - that being said, merry christmas to everyone, hope you all have a happy holiday
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:38 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Ever drive faster than the speed limit, Sarvis?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Ever drive faster than the speed limit, Sarvis?


This makes no sense. Sarvis's point is that he's a great person like Einstein, Nobel, etc were and therefore rules shouldn't apply to him. However, most "average Joes" do drive faster than the speed limit and therefore they don't conform to society which means.... Sarvis... YOU'RE JUST NOT THAT SPECIAL no matter what your mom may have told you.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:45 pm

I concede your point Pril. Clearly, Sarvis is the leader that will save the human race and must be given any and all leeway to do whatever he wants, or else we are allllll dooooommmmmeeedd.

F#$! collar tabs.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:49 pm

Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Ever drive faster than the speed limit, Sarvis?


This makes no sense. Sarvis's point is that he's a great person like Einstein, Nobel, etc were and therefore rules shouldn't apply to him. However, most "average Joes" do drive faster than the speed limit and therefore they don't conform to society which means.... Sarvis... YOU'RE JUST NOT THAT SPECIAL no matter what your mom may have told you.


I never said I was that special. I said only that the more likely a person is to make their own rules the more likely they are to contribute something special to society. There are plenty of people who are not Einstein who invented some product or idea that HAS contributed to our society, by the way. The thing is, people like Kiryan, Kifle, Lathander and Teffie don't want those people in their companies. They'd rather have a bunch of yes-men who don't ask questions like "hey, are these credit swap things really backed by anything?"
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:51 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Ever drive faster than the speed limit, Sarvis?


This makes no sense. Sarvis's point is that he's a great person like Einstein, Nobel, etc were and therefore rules shouldn't apply to him. However, most "average Joes" do drive faster than the speed limit and therefore they don't conform to society which means.... Sarvis... YOU'RE JUST NOT THAT SPECIAL no matter what your mom may have told you.


I never said I was that special. I said only that the more likely a person is to make their own rules the more likely they are to contribute something special to society. There are plenty of people who are not Einstein who invented some product or idea that HAS contributed to our society, by the way. The thing is, people like Kiryan, Kifle, Lathander and Teffie don't want those people in their companies. They'd rather have a bunch of yes-men who don't ask questions like "hey, are these credit swap things really backed by anything?"


Teflor never invested a dime in mortgage-backed securities or pseudo-insurance products.

Never considered it either.

Your assertion that people who wear collar tabs are the ones who got into risky investing is about as hollow as your argument that risky investing is for the straight laced people.

Have you considered that you view people with harsh stereotypes and a very narrow worldview? Your belief that only people who break the rules create innovation or unique ideas is naive at best; wrong to be technically correct.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:56 pm

Sarvis wrote:I never said I was that special. I said only that the more likely a person is to make their own rules the more likely they are to contribute something special to society. There are plenty of people who are not Einstein who invented some product or idea that HAS contributed to our society, by the way. The thing is, people like Kiryan, Kifle, Lathander and Teffie don't want those people in their companies. They'd rather have a bunch of yes-men who don't ask questions like "hey, are these credit swap things really backed by anything?"


Sarvis the issue is there is middle ground. You can have people who conform and ask questions at the same time. You can walk into a job every day of your life wearing the proper attire doing your job as it should be done and still question stuff. It's a question of how it's done. Throwing tamper tantrums and yelling at the boss isn't ok. Meeting with him and proposing new ideas is, in my experience, always welcomed.
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 3:58 pm

Pril wrote:Meeting with him and proposing new ideas is, in my experience, always welcomed.


That depends severely on the boss in question though. American society yes, but some European societies would not appreciate that at all.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:03 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:*snip so those ignoring Teffie don't have to be subjected to this crap*



Wow. You really didn't even remotely understand what I said, did you?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:04 pm

Sarvis wrote:*actual crap*


No, you don't really understand anything at all.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:05 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I never said I was that special. I said only that the more likely a person is to make their own rules the more likely they are to contribute something special to society. There are plenty of people who are not Einstein who invented some product or idea that HAS contributed to our society, by the way. The thing is, people like Kiryan, Kifle, Lathander and Teffie don't want those people in their companies. They'd rather have a bunch of yes-men who don't ask questions like "hey, are these credit swap things really backed by anything?"


Sarvis the issue is there is middle ground. You can have people who conform and ask questions at the same time. You can walk into a job every day of your life wearing the proper attire doing your job as it should be done and still question stuff. It's a question of how it's done. Throwing tamper tantrums and yelling at the boss isn't ok. Meeting with him and proposing new ideas is, in my experience, always welcomed.


Yes, there's also a middle ground where you break small rules because they just don't matter. That doesn't mean you're automatically a Rebel Without a Cause who goes about making trouble. Just because someone has a tattoo doesn't mean they're going to be some unmanageable employee.

However, people who have some mindless dedication to following rules when they don't matter is much less likely to be the kind of person who questions things.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:06 pm

Sarvis wrote:Just because someone has a tattoo doesn't mean they're going to be some unmanageable employee.


It also is not meaningless, however.

Sarvis wrote:However, people who have some mindless dedication to following rules when they don't matter is much less likely to be the kind of person who questions things.


Now who is prejudging? You watch too many movies.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:29 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I never said I was that special. I said only that the more likely a person is to make their own rules the more likely they are to contribute something special to society. There are plenty of people who are not Einstein who invented some product or idea that HAS contributed to our society, by the way. The thing is, people like Kiryan, Kifle, Lathander and Teffie don't want those people in their companies. They'd rather have a bunch of yes-men who don't ask questions like "hey, are these credit swap things really backed by anything?"


Sarvis the issue is there is middle ground. You can have people who conform and ask questions at the same time. You can walk into a job every day of your life wearing the proper attire doing your job as it should be done and still question stuff. It's a question of how it's done. Throwing tamper tantrums and yelling at the boss isn't ok. Meeting with him and proposing new ideas is, in my experience, always welcomed.


Yes, there's also a middle ground where you break small rules because they just don't matter. That doesn't mean you're automatically a Rebel Without a Cause who goes about making trouble. Just because someone has a tattoo doesn't mean they're going to be some unmanageable employee.

However, people who have some mindless dedication to following rules when they don't matter is much less likely to be the kind of person who questions things.


But Sarvis who decides which rules matter? I mean if it's in the eye of the beholder well then I'd say most serial killers don't think that laws against murder are "silly" and they don't have to follow them. Or a person who drinks and drives should it be legal for someone to drinking and driving then? The issue is that while some rules may not make sense to you or may seem silly to you the fact is they are the rules by which our society has agreed to adhere. And like many other rules when you break them there are consequences. Even if you break rules that are unfair in an attempt to make them fair. Take Rosa Parks for example, she felt the current rules were unfair. She sat at the front of the bus. She made a HUGE impact on today's society and she changed it. HOWEVER she broke the rules and was sent to jail. She knew the outcome of her actions and did them anyways because she felt it was the right thing to do. You need to understand that when you balk against societies rules you may change society and you may not however you WILL be punished or shunned or whatever the outcome may be for your actions.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Wed Dec 24, 2008 4:36 pm

This thread needs euthanasia.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:52 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Nobody follows all the rules, Sarvis. "All" being the opperant word. The guy dressed up nice during an interview -- yeah he probably did drugs at some point; however, he doesn't advertise it. Everyone has sped during their lifetimes (well, at least people who can drive). Nobody follows all the rules. Saying Carl Sagan is a rule breaker is just rediculous because he occasionally smoked pot with his wife is just stupid. Saying aristocrats went against the grain is even more rediculous. You're making a horrible argument. There are certain "rules" you follows if you want certain things to happen. You dress nice for interviews if you want jobs. You do you work if you want a degree. I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand. You're essentially saying someone who j-walks and someone who goes on a murder spree are equally criminal because they "both didn't follow the rules." There are degrees. I'm done with this argument. You are seriously being tefficult, and I muted his ass for a reason.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Wed Dec 24, 2008 6:55 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:*snip so those ignoring Teffie don't have to be subjected to this crap*



Wow. You really didn't even remotely understand what I said, did you?


Thank you for the early Christmas present. You're a quoting master and gained +1 internets. I love you Sarvis.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 7:40 pm

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Kifle wrote:God Sarvis, you've caught a case of teflitis. I give up.


You're claiming a guy who does something illegal is following the rules.

That's Teffie all over.


Nobody follows all the rules, Sarvis. "All" being the opperant word. The guy dressed up nice during an interview -- yeah he probably did drugs at some point; however, he doesn't advertise it. Everyone has sped during their lifetimes (well, at least people who can drive). Nobody follows all the rules. Saying Carl Sagan is a rule breaker is just rediculous because he occasionally smoked pot with his wife is just stupid. Saying aristocrats went against the grain is even more rediculous. You're making a horrible argument.


Aristocrats don't break the law? Really? Come on man, wake up. Ask Caesar. Ask Rush Limbaugh. Ask former Gov. Spitzer. (Yeah yeah, technically Rush and Spitzer aren't aristocrats, but politicians and famous are the closest thing we have to them. I'm sure I could pull more examples if I felt like doing the research.)

I'm sure I could come up with more details on the people you brought up, but frankly I don't feel like digging through their history to find out if Carl wore sneakers to his first job interview or something. You're really making a pretty strong assumption that these people were all very straight-laced, when they really might not be.

There are certain "rules" you follows if you want certain things to happen. You dress nice for interviews if you want jobs. You do you work if you want a degree. I don't see how this is so hard for you to understand. You're essentially saying someone who j-walks and someone who goes on a murder spree are equally criminal because they "both didn't follow the rules." There are degrees. I'm done with this argument. You are seriously being tefficult, and I muted his ass for a reason.


Illegal drug use is a bit beyond jaywalking, but I wasn't implying anything of the sort anyway. I'm saying that the person who jaywalks because he checked all the streets and there's no cars in sight is probably more creative than the guy who waits for the Walk sign on both streets without even bothering to check if there was a better way.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ambar » Wed Dec 24, 2008 9:43 pm

I must be a very creative person .. "creativity according to Sarvis"


I have 9 ear piercings (one never healed and was always infected so finally removed it)
I have a tongue piercing
I have 2 tattoos
I have driven drunk (In my youth, very very bad sailor)
I have experimented with drugs (not in the last 22 or so years but still)
I speed every day (you have to in this area, even grannys pass ya by)

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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Wed Dec 24, 2008 11:07 pm

Ambar wrote:I must be a very creative person .. "creativity according to Sarvis"


I have 9 ear piercings (one never healed and was always infected so finally removed it)
I have a tongue piercing
I have 2 tattoos
I have driven drunk (In my youth, very very bad sailor)
I have experimented with drugs (not in the last 22 or so years but still)
I speed every day (you have to in this area, even grannys pass ya by)

*emote steals from Daz's popcorn bowl then guzzles her beer*


You're clearly unhireable. Obviously a rebel who can't take orders.

Right?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby oteb » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:45 am

For every 1 Einstein who doesn't conform to rules you hire 1 million (low estimate) losers, drug abusers, criminals, idiots. Or you can hire zero-chance-of-Einstein and only 500k losers, drug abusers, criminals and idiots. But do you really need that Einstein that bad that you take the risk?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 25, 2008 12:52 am

what oteb said.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:21 am

Ah yes, the numbers-pulled-out-of-ass argument. Always a good one.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:50 am

Sarvis it's not numbers pulled out of his ass yeah they are not statistics but it is a proven fact. Give me 10 guys with tattoo's on their faces and 10 guys dressed nice at random and out of them i bet you 7 of the guys dressed nice aren't trouble makers and i bet you 7 of the guys with tattooed faces are. or have been arrested where as 7 of the guys dressed nicely haven't been. It's just how it is. Deal with it.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 3:52 am

Except that that isn't how it is. It's how you're making it up to be.

How it really is: Give me 10 people dressed in suits and ties, 2 will be embezzlers, 3 will be child molesters and 3 will be serial killers their neighbor describes as "he was always quiet and kept to himself."

See, I can make shit up too.

Nice to know Ambar is a troublemaker though.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:13 am

Sylvos wrote: I'm going back to my world where the sky is blue, your sky was a very fascinating colour during this brief excursion.


QFT
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:31 am

Let me try to explain a bit about how it works. First, you rarely will go down for hiring folks that fits the profile. In addition, those folks that continue to fit the profile will not reflect on you poorly if they do something wrong unless it is an extreme situation. Those that fit the “you should have seen it coming” profile, those are the ones you will more likely go down for when something goes wrong. Let me give you a choice I had earlier in the year.

I had a guy I could have hired back early this year. He had over 15 years of experience and was a good producer. Unfortunately, he made a dumb mistake to help a client by going outside the rules of the firm he was at. He didn’t do anything really out of looking to do wrong, he simply went too far to help his client and it came back and bit him in the ass. He was “allowed to resign” which in my industry means he was going to be fired if he didn’t resign.

Anyway, I could have hired him. My boss’s boss asked me to have a conversation about the recruit. I sat in his office and he explained to me that there are two different “no’s”. The first is absolutely not, you can’t hire him. The second is saying I wouldn’t hire him, but if you want to you can. The caveat is if something goes wrong with the guy, you are completely responsible, meaning I’m betting my career on the guy. Suffice to say, I’m not about to take that risk so I had to turn down someone that we would have jumped through hoops to get if the situation wasn’t as it was.

The moral here is you can go to bat for folks that follow the rules, have a history of following rules and look like they will appear to continue to follow the rules. Those that appear to be outliers for what you are looking for, those are the ones you have to spend career capital for to get and in the vast majority of cases, it isn’t worth the risk.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:38 am

Lathander wrote:Let me try to explain a bit about how it works. First, you rarely will go down for hiring folks that fits the profile. In addition, those folks that continue to fit the profile will not reflect on you poorly if they do something wrong unless it is an extreme situation. Those that fit the “you should have seen it coming” profile, those are the ones you will more likely go down for when something goes wrong. Let me give you a choice I had earlier in the year.

I had a guy I could have hired back early this year. He had over 15 years of experience and was a good producer. Unfortunately, he made a dumb mistake to help a client by going outside the rules of the firm he was at. He didn’t do anything really out of looking to do wrong, he simply went too far to help his client and it came back and bit him in the ass. He was “allowed to resign” which in my industry means he was going to be fired if he didn’t resign.

Anyway, I could have hired him. My boss’s boss asked me to have a conversation about the recruit. I sat in his office and he explained to me that there are two different “no’s”. The first is absolutely not, you can’t hire him. The second is saying I wouldn’t hire him, but if you want to you can. The caveat is if something goes wrong with the guy, you are completely responsible, meaning I’m betting my career on the guy. Suffice to say, I’m not about to take that risk so I had to turn down someone that we would have jumped through hoops to get if the situation wasn’t as it was.

The moral here is you can go to bat for folks that follow the rules, have a history of following rules and look like they will appear to continue to follow the rules. Those that appear to be outliers for what you are looking for, those are the ones you have to spend career capital for to get and in the vast majority of cases, it isn’t worth the risk.



But did he have tattoos and piercings?

Oh, and it's awesome that your industry fires people for providing good customer service.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Lathander » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:50 am

Good customer service, wow, you really don't get it. By going out of bounds, the party that controlled the money ended up stealing some of the client's money. It wasn't discovered until the party that controlled the money died. Doing wrong is not a matter of choicing to do wrong, it can just be not following the rules. The rules are there for a reason: to protect the the firm and the employee.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 5:52 am

So did he have tattoos and piercings?

Come on man, you're trying to prove that people who don't follow unwritten fashion guidelines from 50 years ago are troublemakers. You could at least LIE and say this guy had all kinds of tattoos.
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