Worst Case scenario

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Corth
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:52 am

Dude.. he is not talking about tattoos and piercings at all. How about instead of just trying to argue EVERY SINGLE POINT, you read what he has to say and learn a little bit?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ambar » Thu Dec 25, 2008 1:37 pm

Sarvis, you and your skewed reasoning is what is wrong with this country.

I'd wager that there are far more hirable / successful people that fit the mold than those that don't (barring the entertainment industry where the freakier you are the better)

I was stating on my own behalf that your decision based on appearance dictates I am a very original and creative person because of my own past and personal body altering choices. Quite the opposite :) My tattoos are a result of the different places I went as a sailor, the new piercings were my reward to myself for spending 20 years having to conform to pretty strict standards of dress and appearance. I am a rule follower and not very creative. I'm just a proponent of my own and my coworkers well-being and very vocal about it. If I am hired in and they tell me I have to dress a certain way, well they pay my paycheck, I either conform or I don't last and the paychecks stop.

There are business class criminals, heck yeah there are, the news is full of them .. the priest you thought you could trust who is a child molester, the school teachers who have affairs with their 13 year old students, they are the minority, they are not the norm .. there are also people who if you looked at them you'd think they were an axe murderer but in fact are not.

Again, first impressions matter unless you have the time to get to know the person in depth.

I am quite sure there are lawyers, doctors, other professionals whose preference is tattoos, piercings, other body mods .. if they showed this persona to the world how successful do you think they would be? Imagine going to a doctor to treat your cancer and the minute he talks to you his forked tongue pops out .. I'd hightail it out, post haste!

You don't need piercings, tattoos or body mods to be creative or original, some people chose not to alter themselves in any way but are innovators, deep thinkers, motivators and changers

By you claiming that anyone who is *different* has to be creative and a world changer because they chose to display a certain outer appearance is as bad as stating any person who conforms to norms must be a non thinker, just following all the rules.

You just refuse to see that .. there are many people telling you the very same thing but you keep arguing .. you are just as guilty of appearance based biased as anyone else, your view is just horribly skewed.

o yeah

Merry Christmas :) The fudge is in the fridge, the home-made peanut brittle is in the container, the cookies are in the other container .. the breads are baking, pie is next to bake, green bean casserole and scalloped corn are on the menu too .. roast goes in at 1 PM or so ..

Have a wonderful day :)
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:02 pm

Corth wrote:Dude.. he is not talking about tattoos and piercings at all. How about instead of just trying to argue EVERY SINGLE POINT, you read what he has to say and learn a little bit?



Learn what, Corth? That people are completely and entirely described by what they are wearing?

That's what you guys are saying. That's what I'm not buying. You're telling me I'm rebellious because I wear sneakers to work, and Lath is trying to put me in the same category as someone who broke very strict financial rules and cost the company tons of money.

Does the conservative viewpoint even WORK without judging and categorizing people? Is there simply no room for treating people as individuals? Take Ambar. She claims to be a rule follower, as I'd expect from a military person. Yet by EVERY single criteria you have advocated in this thread you would not hire her because of her tattoos and piercings.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 4:10 pm

Ambar wrote:Sarvis, you and your skewed reasoning is what is wrong with this country.


Gee thanks.

You might want to re-evaluate that. I would give you a chance in an interview, talk to you and try to determine if you skill set would be valuable to my company. That's the skewed viewpoint to you? You're siding with several people who ON SIGHT would decide not to hire you. That's the _right_ viewpoint here?

Think about that.

Again, first impressions matter unless you have the time to get to know the person in depth.


Which is what I'm advocating here. Tattoos and piercings don't automatically make people drug users or ax murderers. I know LOTS of people with tattoos, especially when I was growing up. All of them were trustworthy, loyal and hard working. Sorry if my actual experience in the matter gives me a different frame of reference than those who automatically judge people and turn away without bothering to get to know them.



You just refuse to see that .. there are many people telling you the very same thing but you keep arguing .. you are just as guilty of appearance based biased as anyone else, your view is just horribly skewed.


I didn't say everyone with tattoos was creative, by the way. I said they were more likely to be. There's a difference. The main point, in any case, is that you shouldn't judge them just on what they are wearing. Sorry if that's confusing to you. I just think treating people as people is kind of a good thing.

Of course, the one person who tried to actually SHOW creative people who conformed to the rules brought up rule-makers and drug users. Maybe the real lesson here is that no one really conforms, but Conservatives can be tricked into thinking you are with the right outfit.

o yeah

Merry Christmas :) The fudge is in the fridge, the home-made peanut brittle is in the container, the cookies are in the other container .. the breads are baking, pie is next to bake, green bean casserole and scalloped corn are on the menu too .. roast goes in at 1 PM or so ..

Have a wonderful day :)



At the risk of gaining your ire for responding to every point, Merry Christmas!
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby oteb » Thu Dec 25, 2008 6:32 pm

Sarvis a big question for you.
How did the patent office that hired Einstein gain from hiring a genius?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Thu Dec 25, 2008 9:54 pm

Sarvis let me ask you a question:

You're driving down the road and see a big guy with an axe on the side of the road. Do you pick him up?
The best of WTF statments of '06
--------------------------------------------------------
Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Thu Dec 25, 2008 10:29 pm

Pril wrote:Sarvis let me ask you a question:

You're driving down the road and see a big guy with an axe on the side of the road. Do you pick him up?


Of course not, I'm from the northeast, and EVERYONE knows northeasterner's don't stop to help people!

EDIT: Other than that, though... I might. Someone who was actually planning to kill people would <i>hide the axe.</i>
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 26, 2008 12:53 am

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:Sarvis let me ask you a question:

You're driving down the road and see a big guy with an axe on the side of the road. Do you pick him up?


Of course not, I'm from the northeast, and EVERYONE knows northeasterner's don't stop to help people!

EDIT: Other than that, though... I might. Someone who was actually planning to kill people would <i>hide the axe.</i>


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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:38 am

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:Sarvis let me ask you a question:

You're driving down the road and see a big guy with an axe on the side of the road. Do you pick him up?


Of course not, I'm from the northeast, and EVERYONE knows northeasterner's don't stop to help people!

EDIT: Other than that, though... I might. Someone who was actually planning to kill people would <i>hide the axe.</i>


Sarvis here's the problem with your thinking.

You think the guy on the side of the road is a lumberjack trying to get home. Most people think guy on the side of the road giant axe I'm getting the F*&# out of here. And yeah there is a chance that he is a lumberjack, but what's the better chance?

(see kifle's response to your post)
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 3:47 am

Yes, all sociopaths advertise their intentions. How silly of me. A murderer wouldn't simply use a gun or knife he could hide in his suit coat. :roll:

Let's turn this around, what about this guy:

Image
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:51 am

The only thing that is turned around is your non-argument. You have no reason or evidence whatsoever to believe that people that follow the rules are any less creative, intelligent, or prone to reason than people who don't.

You're holding an empty bag, Sarvis. Time to make like a tree and stop talking.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:22 am

After becoming a lurker to this thread rather than inputting my usual unsolicited drivel, I decide to do my own reading about workplace conformity versus creativity - I found this article which seems informative, albeit long winded.

Bringing about changes in workplace behavior...

May be interesting reading for people, might prove or disprove arguments, or create new ones. Regardless, it seems like good information.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:39 am

My personal thought of the moment, why do corporations recognize and encourage buzzwords like creativity, innovation, change, etc but they frown upon any of their employees embracing those ideals. I've seen very little to make me think that change, creativity, innovation are driven by social conformity, and, as I think is related to Sarvis' point - external implementation of those ideals are related to internal adoption. How can you develop ideals and strategies to take advantage of creativity when you don't know how to use it within your own lifestyle?

I'm not saying that a neon green glow in the dark mohawk with a forked tongue is the best way to express yourself at work, but I am saying that finding ways to express your personality within the guidelines of your environment are going to help free yourself to think outside of the norm. And it wouldn't hurt for some of those workplace guidelines to maybe be a bit more open to allow the kind of change that their managers are so busy forcing down the corporate throat.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:51 am

kwirl wrote:I am saying that finding ways to express your personality within the guidelines of your environment are going to help free yourself to think outside of the norm.


kwirl wrote:And it wouldn't hurt for some of those workplace guidelines to maybe be a bit more open to allow the kind of change that their managers are so busy forcing down the corporate throat.


Think about those two sentences for a second. Creativity != looking different. It never has. Innovation != looking different. It never will. As you stated, real creative people find ways to do things within the system. People who demand they're creative and moan about this "problem" apparently aren't creative enough to do the prior. I think you've hit the nail on the head. Instead of following a trend that lost steam a decade ago, create your own trend? That would be creative. Otherwise, you'll always be lumped in with all the other "creative" people who look exactly the same -- which isn't creative. So, if we look closely, the "creative" people being turned away from certain jobs aren't creative at all. They're no better than the "non-creative" people who wear suits and button-up shirts they call "conformists." I've always found it hilarious.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to mess up my hair and redefine physics.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:57 am

From a research paper I was reading,

There appear to be two fundamental and inconsistent realities operating today with regard to diversity. One is that organizations claim they seek to maximize diversity in the workplace, and maximize the capabilities of such a diverse workforce. The other is that traditional human resources systems will not allow diversity, only similarity. Until these two fundamental realities are reconciled, it is clear that diversity objectives will not be achieved.

When we hire, promote, and evaluate people we often do so in our own image or the image of the organization or work environment. That is, we tend to bring people into the organization and promote employees who "fit," or are similar in many respects to the decision makers or gatekeepers that control such decisions (e.g., Judge and Ferris, in press). By no means is this a new phenomenon, in fact, it has been a hallmark of organizational life for many years. Barnard (1938) stated the case quite directly over fifty years ago:
"The general method of maintaining an informal executive organization is to operate and to select and promote executives that a general condition of compatibility of personnel is maintained. Perhaps often and certainly occasionally men cannot be promoted or selected, or even must be relieved, because they cannot function, because they 'do not fit,' where there is no question of formal competence. This question of 'fitness' involves such matters as education, experience, age, sex, personal distinctions, prestige, race, nationality, faith, politics, sectional antecedents; and such very specific personal traits as manners, speech, personal appearance, etc. It goes by few if any rules, except those based at least nominally on other, formal, considerations. It represents in its best sense the political aspects of personal relationships informal organization".

And Barnard's characterization of human resources systems remains generally accurate today. The actions of organizational decision makers to reinforce this notion of "fit" in their staffing decisions led Kanter (1977) to coin the term "homosocial reproduction" to refer to such staffing and promotion systems because only those are allowed to pass through (i.e., to the next job or level in the organization) who share in common the characteristics reflected by the decision maker, dominant coalition, and/or the organizational culture. The effects of such systems has been to create highly homogeneous work environments where people look, act, and think alike, and where conformity, not diversity, is the valued objective.

Indeed, such practices reflect the "political aspects" of how organizations and human resources systems operate, which is an area that we do not yet understand very well, but is receiving attention by both researchers and practitioners (Cooper, Graham, and Dyke, 1993; Ferris and Judge, 1991; Ferris, King, Judge, and Kacmar, 1991; Judge and Ferris, in press). However, the reality is that such "political aspects" of human resources systems have created both entry and internal access barriers for members of diverse groups (i.e., usually anyone who is not a white male, but more precisely, anyone who does not reflect similar characteristics as the human resources decision makers and/or dominant coalition). "The glass ceiling" has been used to refer to the upward mobility barriers to women and minority group members, and the evidence to date suggests that organizations have made little progress in shattering this glass ceiling and opening up opportunities. Indeed, a recent conference sponsored by the Human Resources Planning Society and the Center for Creative Leadership ("The Glass Ceiling: New Insights, New Initiatives," Phoenix, Arizona, April, 21 1993) reported survey results demonstrating that only 7% of the responding organizations indicated effectiveness in achieving diversity in the executive ranks, and only 13% reported effectiveness in the management ranks.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:34 am

Think about those two sentences for a second. Creativity != looking different. It never has. Innovation != looking different. It never will.


I think that this is somewhat untrue. IBM in the 80's produced a report saying that when they lightened the dress code restrictions for their IT department to merely business 'casual', the workplace morale and productivity increased almost 25%. Businesses that make changes to the atmosphere of their corporate offices (i.e. cubicle farms) have shown that making the environment more creative, that their workers have become more productive, while being happier with their jobs.

There is a correlation between internal and external creativity, and while I agree that they are not mutually restrictive, I would also go as far as to say that allowing people to 'appear' more creative has allowed them to 'think' more creatively. Saying that creativity and innovation are not caused by nonconformity is true, but saying that conformity restricts and inhibits creative and innovative thinking is also true. Neither are true in all situations, at all the time, but there is a relationship between the two states.

The Rise of the Creative Class

Is a book you might want to read to get further clarification and definition about the role of creativity in the workplace is defined and what those 'different' creative types contribute to a conformist environment.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby oteb » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:04 am

oteb wrote:Sarvis a big question for you.
How did the patent office that hired Einstein gain from hiring a genius?


Come on Sarvis you can answer that.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:24 am

The patent office may not have made any significant reward from the hiring, excepting for possibly exposure, but the gains that the entire world have made based on his 'free time' at work are far from debatable.

I realize you are trying to say that hiring someone 'outside the box' is usually going to fail, and that Einstein's accomplishments are an exception, not the rule. Sarvis could probably make a response about Einstein's contributions to the world as a whole, which you could argue the relevance from the perspective of the employer, to which Sarvis could mention the profitability of the exposure, blah blah blah - any answer Sarvis gives would be bait for you to argue.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 1:34 pm

oteb wrote:
oteb wrote:Sarvis a big question for you.
How did the patent office that hired Einstein gain from hiring a genius?


Come on Sarvis you can answer that.


Yeah, right. My command of history is so extensive I know every job Einstein ever held AND how it worked out! :roll:
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:02 pm

I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.

Non-conformist ideas are great for society as a whole. Non-conformist appearance is strictly a personal reaction to one's environment and therefore of little or no use to society. Unless you're a fashion designer trying to make a living by influencing fashions, you're just trying to a) attract attention to yourself because it is the easiest method you are in control of, b) rebel against a power structure that threatens you, c) make yourself feel different or special, d) enable self-fulfilling prophecies of failure, or e) gain superficial acceptance in to a certain subgroup of society (which, ironically, is conformist).
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:04 pm

f) satisfy your personal aesthetic tastes and style choices
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:11 pm

avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 4:39 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


Rewording the question shouldn't change the answer.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:04 pm

Without having to dredge through every post...

Did anybody bring up the point yet that one of the signs of schizophrenia is an adherence to an internal logic and rules structure that often runs in defiance of societal norms?

Seriously, there's a lot of sociopaths out there who appear very "normal" on the outside, but feel they should be able to operate outside the rules. And before you go pointing to the fact that I just noted that they appear normal on the outside but are broken on the inside, please be aware that this illness manifests a cornucopia of symptoms, and those under these delusions run the gamut of being withdrawn and shy to the extremes of extroversion with colorful ritual display and self-mutilation. I'm referring in specific to the overwhelming symptoms of a self-defined rules structure that exempts the individual from the rules and laws the rest of us must follow.

Many serial killers consider themselves artists of the highest order, actually.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:19 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


Rewording the question shouldn't change the answer.


It's a totally different question Sarvis. What you're saying is:

"Can an inmate at a state prison be innocent?" The answer is yes they can be there is a slight possibility that he is innocent.

What I'm saying is:

"Is an inmate at a state prison less likely to be innocent?" The answer is, he is more likely to be guilty.

Do you see the difference between our questions?
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:33 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


Rewording the question shouldn't change the answer.


It's a totally different question Sarvis. What you're saying is:

"Can an inmate at a state prison be innocent?" The answer is yes they can be there is a slight possibility that he is innocent.

What I'm saying is:

"Is an inmate at a state prison less likely to be innocent?" The answer is, he is more likely to be guilty.

Do you see the difference between our questions?




The problem is you're still making crap up. I'm not at all convinced people with tattoos are more likely to be criminal than people without tattoos. Without that knowledge, the questions are the same. For instance, knowing that no trials were ever conducted for the people in Abu Ghraib would these two questions be different:

Could someone in Abu Ghraib NOT be a terrorist?
Could someone in Abu Ghraib be more likely to be a terrorist?

The answer is "yes" and "no more likely than any other brown person."
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:42 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


Rewording the question shouldn't change the answer.


It's a totally different question Sarvis. What you're saying is:

"Can an inmate at a state prison be innocent?" The answer is yes they can be there is a slight possibility that he is innocent.

What I'm saying is:

"Is an inmate at a state prison less likely to be innocent?" The answer is, he is more likely to be guilty.

Do you see the difference between our questions?




The problem is you're still making crap up. I'm not at all convinced people with tattoos are more likely to be criminal than people without tattoos. Without that knowledge, the questions are the same. For instance, knowing that no trials were ever conducted for the people in Abu Ghraib would these two questions be different:

Could someone in Abu Ghraib NOT be a terrorist?
Could someone in Abu Ghraib be more likely to be a terrorist?

The answer is "yes" and "no more likely than any other brown person."


The issue is really an issue of profiling.

Human mentality:

"Terrorists were Muslim. Therefore we must me more careful with Muslims."
"Gang members used to get piercings and tattoo's. Therefore we must be more careful with people who have piercings and tattoos."

and it goes on from there. People don't need studies to observe their surroundings. Back under the McCarthy dynasty if you will it was:

"Communists are evil. Therefore we must be more careful with them."

it's a question of how do you learn.

Do you learn from others mistakes, from your mistakes or do you never learn?
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 5:51 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


Rewording the question shouldn't change the answer.


It's a totally different question Sarvis. What you're saying is:

"Can an inmate at a state prison be innocent?" The answer is yes they can be there is a slight possibility that he is innocent.

What I'm saying is:

"Is an inmate at a state prison less likely to be innocent?" The answer is, he is more likely to be guilty.

Do you see the difference between our questions?




The problem is you're still making crap up. I'm not at all convinced people with tattoos are more likely to be criminal than people without tattoos. Without that knowledge, the questions are the same. For instance, knowing that no trials were ever conducted for the people in Abu Ghraib would these two questions be different:

Could someone in Abu Ghraib NOT be a terrorist?
Could someone in Abu Ghraib be more likely to be a terrorist?

The answer is "yes" and "no more likely than any other brown person."


The issue is really an issue of profiling.

Human mentality:

"Terrorists were Muslim. Therefore we must me more careful with Muslims."
"Gang members used to get piercings and tattoo's. Therefore we must be more careful with people who have piercings and tattoos."

and it goes on from there. People don't need studies to observe their surroundings. Back under the McCarthy dynasty if you will it was:

"Communists are evil. Therefore we must be more careful with them."

it's a question of how do you learn.

Do you learn from others mistakes, from your mistakes or do you never learn?


Or, and this is a crazy notion, do you just treat people as individuals rather than judging them instantly based on their appearance?

Companies that have a vested interest in hiring reliable people will actually give psychological profile tests to determine how trustworthy they are, by the way. If someone complains about a security guard stealing office supplies, "he passed his profiling test" probably sounds a lot better than "he didn't have any tattoos." Right?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:40 pm

Sarvis,

I think you're the type of person who puts his hand on the stove gets burned, and the next time you put your hand on it on the off chance that this time the burner is turned off.
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:49 pm

Pril wrote:Sarvis,

I think you're the type of person who puts his hand on the stove gets burned, and the next time you put your hand on it on the off chance that this time the burner is turned off.


You know... if you hold your hand just above the burner you could feel the heat (or lack thereof) and then know whether or not it's safe.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:05 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


What I find interesting is that the answer to that question doesn't matter a whole lot. What actually matters is what most people perceive to be true. In other words, in this case, stereotypes make a world of difference. So, you can argue about whether data support one hypothesis or the other, but I doubt anyone is going to argue about the predominant stereotype concerning appearances.

I do a lot of hiring of college students for jobs that are barely above minimum wage. I have a pretty progressive/liberal management style, so I get a lot of applicants that think appearance doesn't matter to me. Current staff know that when an app comes in the door they are to notify me so I can look at them. About a third of applications go straight to the shredder based on my ten second assessment...primarily driven by appearance, posture, body language.

Fair or unfair, right or wrong....perception is reality.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 7:11 pm

avak wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
avak wrote:I don't even know what the question on the table is anymore.


The heart of the debate is this: Can someone who has piercings and tattoos be a good employee?


No it's not. Because when you phrase it like that the answer is yes someone with tattoos and piercings can be a good employee.

The heart of this debate is:

"Is someone with tattoo's and piercings LESS LIKELY to be a good employee than someone who's dressed straight forward."


What I find interesting is that the answer to that question doesn't matter a whole lot. What actually matters is what most people perceive to be true. In other words, in this case, stereotypes make a world of difference. So, you can argue about whether data support one hypothesis or the other, but I doubt anyone is going to argue about the predominant stereotype concerning appearances.

I do a lot of hiring of college students for jobs that are barely above minimum wage. I have a pretty progressive/liberal management style, so I get a lot of applicants that think appearance doesn't matter to me. Current staff know that when an app comes in the door they are to notify me so I can look at them. About a third of applications go straight to the shredder based on my ten second assessment...primarily driven by appearance, posture, body language.

Fair or unfair, right or wrong....perception is reality.


AND you're a complete dick. :P

I'd almost certainly fail any posture assessment...
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Fri Dec 26, 2008 8:59 pm

Sure. If relying on my gut instinct makes me a dick, then I gladly accept the label.

An article in the May 29, 2000, New Yorker reports on how social psychologists have demonstrated that it takes only about 10 to 15 seconds of videotape for someone to form a lasting impression about another person--in this case students ranking the performance of various teachers. And their snap impressions consistently matched up with those of other students who evaluated the same professors after spending an entire semester in their classrooms.

and
"She took fifteen seconds of videotape showing the applicant as he or she knocks on the door, comes in, shakes the hand of the interviewer, sits down, and the interviewer welcomes the person," Bernieri explained. Then, like Ambady, Prickett got a series of strangers to rate the applicants based on the handshake clip, using the same criteria that the interviewers had used. Once more, against all expectations, the ratings were very similar to those of the interviewers. "On nine out of the eleven traits the applicants were being judged on, the observers significantly predicted the outcome of the interview," Bernieri says. "The strength of the correlations was extraordinary."

New Yorker article

Like most people, I don't need to spend all day deliberating about whether applicants would make good employees.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 9:33 pm

avak wrote:Sure. If relying on my gut instinct makes me a dick, then I gladly accept the label.

An article in the May 29, 2000, New Yorker reports on how social psychologists have demonstrated that it takes only about 10 to 15 seconds of videotape for someone to form a lasting impression about another person--in this case students ranking the performance of various teachers. And their snap impressions consistently matched up with those of other students who evaluated the same professors after spending an entire semester in their classrooms.

and
"She took fifteen seconds of videotape showing the applicant as he or she knocks on the door, comes in, shakes the hand of the interviewer, sits down, and the interviewer welcomes the person," Bernieri explained. Then, like Ambady, Prickett got a series of strangers to rate the applicants based on the handshake clip, using the same criteria that the interviewers had used. Once more, against all expectations, the ratings were very similar to those of the interviewers. "On nine out of the eleven traits the applicants were being judged on, the observers significantly predicted the outcome of the interview," Bernieri says. "The strength of the correlations was extraordinary."

New Yorker article

Like most people, I don't need to spend all day deliberating about whether applicants would make good employees.


Like most people... uh-huh. You know argumentum ad populum is a logical fallacy right?

Frankly people who take pride in making snap judgements based on superficial traits and prejudice scare me more than a little. I bet you think all black people are criminals too, right? All Indians are alcoholics? All mudders are anti-social nerds?
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:07 pm

It's a good thing body language goes much deeper than the color of somebody's skin.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:09 pm

Ashiwi wrote:It's a good thing body language goes much deeper than the color of somebody's skin.



Does it? Why? Prove it.

Just saw an article about an aerospace engineer who went nuts and shot up a christmas party. I'm betting that as an aerospace engineer he had good posture, or the fine upstanding suits that judge people wouldn't have hired him.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:16 pm

if only he'd inked some warning symbols on himself to warn people :(
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby avak » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:19 pm

Assuming that I am like most people in regard to first impressions is not argumentum ad populum; it's inductive logic.

Good luck with the thread.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:20 pm

kwirl wrote:if only he'd inked some warning symbols on himself to warn people :(


It's possible his full back death's head was simply covered by a convenient undershirt...
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby kwirl » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:22 pm

quick, patent a Human Resource Fabric Penetrating Ink Detection device!
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:30 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:It's a good thing body language goes much deeper than the color of somebody's skin.



Does it? Why? Prove it.

Just saw an article about an aerospace engineer who went nuts and shot up a christmas party. I'm betting that as an aerospace engineer he had good posture, or the fine upstanding suits that judge people wouldn't have hired him.



Sarvis i'm sorry but are you really this ignorant and stupid or are you just playing for arguments sake? Yeah ok he did that. but look at the damn rations of aerospace engineers who shoot someone to the ratio of tattooed gang members who shoot someone. You can't just point out the exception to the rule and say well what about this? yeah there are people who dress nicely who beat there wives and who kill co workers and who molest children etc. On the other hand there are people who have tattoo's and piercings who donate money to charities and work and pay taxes and don't embezzle money etc. The question becomes what percentage of people who have tattoo's/piercings do do crime versus the percent of people who don't have tattoo's piercings that do crime.

Also let me ask you this: you are interviewing someone. They come in with no shirt on and a big swastika ok their chest. Do you interview them? Do you hire them? How good would they have to be at their job for you as the hiring manager to justify taking the risk of hiring someone like that?
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Fri Dec 26, 2008 10:42 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Ashiwi wrote:It's a good thing body language goes much deeper than the color of somebody's skin.



Does it? Why? Prove it.

Just saw an article about an aerospace engineer who went nuts and shot up a christmas party. I'm betting that as an aerospace engineer he had good posture, or the fine upstanding suits that judge people wouldn't have hired him.



Sarvis i'm sorry but are you really this ignorant and stupid or are you just playing for arguments sake? Yeah ok he did that. but look at the damn rations of aerospace engineers who shoot someone to the ratio of tattooed gang members who shoot someone.


Riight. Because it's the tattoos that make them violence, not the gang memberhsip. :roll:

Telling, though, that you can't debate this without insulting me.

You can't just point out the exception to the rule and say well what about this? yeah there are people who dress nicely who beat there wives and who kill co workers and who molest children etc.


Lots of them, actually. I wonder how many just don't get caught because cops who think like you don't bother to pay attention to white men dressed in nice suits. There are certainly more blacks arrested for drug use than whites, but do you really believe more blacks use drugs? Just about _everyone_ uses at least pot these days, especially if you go onto a college campus. There's a reason blacks are busted more, and it ain't because cops do thorough investigations without regard to superficial features.



On the other hand there are people who have tattoo's and piercings who donate money to charities and work and pay taxes and don't embezzle money etc. The question becomes what percentage of people who have tattoo's/piercings do do crime versus the percent of people who don't have tattoo's piercings that do crime.


You may have missed part of the point of our joking before. What percentage of people do you work with that have tattoos and piercings? You have no idea, because many can simply be covered by a shirt. You're being fooled by an image created with clothing, yet judging people who simply got tattoos in the wrong (harder to cover) places. Or maybe people who get a tattoo that extends to their hand are more violent than people who get one that stops a few inches above the wrist? Yeah, that's the ticket!

Also let me ask you this: you are interviewing someone. They come in with no shirt on and a big swastika ok their chest. Do you interview them? Do you hire them? How good would they have to be at their job for you as the hiring manager to justify taking the risk of hiring someone like that?


How many people do you work with that DO have a giant swastika on their chest? Oh right, you have no way of knowing. (Unless you work in a very interesting office.)

I'm not saying I would hire this person, but you're claiming that if he wears a shirt you KNOW he's ok because you can't see his tattoos!

(Incidentally, coming to an interview shirtless is a dealbreaker unless you're female so the tattoo doesn't really matter.)
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:23 am

Sarvis wrote:
Riight. Because it's the tattoos that make them violence, not the gang memberhsip. :roll:



No that's not the correlation. The correlation is: most if not all gang members have tattoo's -> people who have tattoo's may be part of a gang (maybe not but may be). -> said person may be violent

Pril wrote:Also let me ask you this: you are interviewing someone. They come in with no shirt on and a big swastika ok their chest. Do you interview them? Do you hire them? How good would they have to be at their job for you as the hiring manager to justify taking the risk of hiring someone like that?


Sarvis wrote:How many people do you work with that DO have a giant swastika on their chest? Oh right, you have no way of knowing. (Unless you work in a very interesting office.)

I'm not saying I would hire this person, but you're claiming that if he wears a shirt you KNOW he's ok because you can't see his tattoos!

(Incidentally, coming to an interview shirtless is a dealbreaker unless you're female so the tattoo doesn't really matter.)


Why is coming to an interview w/o a shirt a deal breaker? Shouldn't you judge the person on what they can do vs their decision on expressing themselves? Shouldn't a person be able to come to an interview in just boxers still have just as much of a chance to get the job as the person who wears a suit? Aren't they going to be more creative and revolutionize the way you do business? Why is coming to work shirtless a deal breaker?
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:30 am

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Riight. Because it's the tattoos that make them violence, not the gang memberhsip. :roll:



No that's not the correlation. The correlation is: most if not all gang members have tattoo's -> people who have tattoo's may be part of a gang (maybe not but may be). -> said person may be violent

Pril wrote:Also let me ask you this: you are interviewing someone. They come in with no shirt on and a big swastika ok their chest. Do you interview them? Do you hire them? How good would they have to be at their job for you as the hiring manager to justify taking the risk of hiring someone like that?


Sarvis wrote:How many people do you work with that DO have a giant swastika on their chest? Oh right, you have no way of knowing. (Unless you work in a very interesting office.)

I'm not saying I would hire this person, but you're claiming that if he wears a shirt you KNOW he's ok because you can't see his tattoos!

(Incidentally, coming to an interview shirtless is a dealbreaker unless you're female so the tattoo doesn't really matter.)


Why is coming to an interview w/o a shirt a deal breaker? Shouldn't you judge the person on what they can do vs their decision on expressing themselves? Shouldn't a person be able to come to an interview in just boxers still have just as much of a chance to get the job as the person who wears a suit? Aren't they going to be more creative and revolutionize the way you do business? Why is coming to work shirtless a deal breaker?


The point remains that you're missing anyone who wears a shirt to cover their giant hate symbol tattoo, and you're ok with missing those people. Obviously a shirt makes everyone respectable. A shirt hides your personality. You're not a gang member if you wear a shirt, no matter how many people you've raped and murdered.
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:51 pm

Sarvis,

I am Prince Kufour Otumfuo the elder son of the late King Otumfuo Opoku ware II whose demise occur following a brief illness. Before the death of my father, King Otumfuo Opoku ware II, I was authorised and officially known as the next successor and beneficiary of my father's property according to African Traditional rite.

Most of my father's wealth includes Gold and Diamond worth the following qualities.

(1) 99kg alluvial gold dust Best quality GEM/Servce 100

(2) 22 karat Quantity 3000 S.A

(3) 9.0 purity Colour : Brown (unpolished) Size: 3/8 carats

As a result of polygamous family, there has been a dead luck over the issue of division of my father's property between members of my family and community as a whole. In conjunction with this, the thrown which is only left to me as the eldest man in the family is been battled by the member of the twenty one hamlet that made up of Ashanti kingdom.

This ugly situation made me to secretly move the gold dust having the above mentioned qualities into a security and finance firm with the assistance of my uncle whom serves as a secretary to Ashanti council of elders.

If you are interested to buy it just contact me or just look for a buyer for me.

I have promise to run the deal with you, base in the degree of sincerity and trust in you. Having receive your reply, I will feed you with the relevant information covering the consignment.

Note, I and my mother hoped heavily on this transaction. Please reach me through my e-mail address m_gambo@onebox.com to avoid much publicity.

Thanks. Yours faithfully,

PRINCE KUFOUR OTUMFUO
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Corth » Sat Dec 27, 2008 1:52 pm

Please don't get the wrong impression about PRINCE KUFOUR OTUMFUO because of his bad grammar.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Pril » Sat Dec 27, 2008 3:21 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Riight. Because it's the tattoos that make them violence, not the gang memberhsip. :roll:



No that's not the correlation. The correlation is: most if not all gang members have tattoo's -> people who have tattoo's may be part of a gang (maybe not but may be). -> said person may be violent

Pril wrote:Also let me ask you this: you are interviewing someone. They come in with no shirt on and a big swastika ok their chest. Do you interview them? Do you hire them? How good would they have to be at their job for you as the hiring manager to justify taking the risk of hiring someone like that?


Sarvis wrote:How many people do you work with that DO have a giant swastika on their chest? Oh right, you have no way of knowing. (Unless you work in a very interesting office.)

I'm not saying I would hire this person, but you're claiming that if he wears a shirt you KNOW he's ok because you can't see his tattoos!

(Incidentally, coming to an interview shirtless is a dealbreaker unless you're female so the tattoo doesn't really matter.)


Why is coming to an interview w/o a shirt a deal breaker? Shouldn't you judge the person on what they can do vs their decision on expressing themselves? Shouldn't a person be able to come to an interview in just boxers still have just as much of a chance to get the job as the person who wears a suit? Aren't they going to be more creative and revolutionize the way you do business? Why is coming to work shirtless a deal breaker?


The point remains that you're missing anyone who wears a shirt to cover their giant hate symbol tattoo, and you're ok with missing those people. Obviously a shirt makes everyone respectable. A shirt hides your personality. You're not a gang member if you wear a shirt, no matter how many people you've raped and murdered.


The point remains that you said you'd discriminate against someone who comes to an interview without a shirt unless they are female. Your company is now being sued for sexual discrimination. You're fired. Have a good day.

And no one said that you're not a gang member if you wear a shirt. But you at least have enough common sense to hide it. Yeah the person hiring you could easily still be screwed sure. HOWEVER someone with tattoo's where they can be hidden (see kifle) at least has the state of mind to see that point of view and gets his artwork done in a way that will still allow him to conform with society.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Kifle » Sat Dec 27, 2008 7:24 pm

Tattoo'd people are changing science!

Look at all those non-conformist bastards in that picture!
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Re: Worst Case scenario

Postby Sarvis » Sat Dec 27, 2008 8:02 pm

Kifle wrote:Tattoo'd people are changing science!

Look at all those non-conformist bastards in that picture!



I note many of them are wearing jeans, others have their shirts not tucked in... and if you go to the gallery at least one guy is wearing a t-shirt. Hardly icons of good corporate dress code.

In any case, I just got my heart broken... so I'm probably bowing out of this for a while. Have fun judging people by what they wear! It tells you everything you need to know. Really!
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