Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

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Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 09, 2009 10:34 pm

Obama's new stimulus. Cut taxes, spend trillions.

Isn't cutting taxes so people have more money to spend and invest a Republican / Reganism idea? I thought all the liberal Democrats had sufficiently proved that it doesn't work.

Man we handed this to them on a golden platter. An excuse to funnel trillions of dollars into their agenda (green, union jobs (government jobs), and more government control and bureacracy).

Obama is going to create 3 million jobs, 80% of them in the private sector. That means 600,000 more government workers to tell you what to do, and collect excellent salary and benefits for the rest of their life. It also means a lot of Democratic votes and a lot more Union money going into the Democratic party coffers.

I hope this turns out better than I expect.

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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Lathander » Sat Jan 10, 2009 12:46 am

Keynesian economics, only problem is the government can't be trusted to turn around and do the full thing. For Keynesian economics, you have to cut spending, not just the rate of spending growth later.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:48 am

Only a republican would bitch about 600,000 new jobs being created in a time when our economy is falling apart. Only a republican.

Yes, we did!
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Corth » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:20 pm

Why stop at 600,000? Why not create 10 million jobs? Or 20 million? We have all the money in the world!
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:18 pm

Only a republican.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 10, 2009 4:24 pm

kiryan wrote:Obama's new stimulus. Cut taxes, spend trillions.


After listening to you guys for 8 years, I've learned that cutting taxes increases tax revenue.

Isn't cutting taxes so people have more money to spend and invest a Republican / Reganism idea? I thought all the liberal Democrats had sufficiently proved that it doesn't work.


Republican/Reaganism is to cut taxes for people who are already swimming in big pools full of money. Also, shouldn't you be able to spell your messiah's name correctly?


Corth wrote:Why stop at 600,000? Why not create 10 million jobs? Or 20 million? We have all the money in the world!



Meh. What's a little more debt after the Bush administration anyway. At least this way people other than Haliburton will have jobs, be able to spend/save.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:42 pm

Create as many private sector jobs as you want, but I have to pay for those government workers. But to tell you truth, I'd rather pay for 10x as many new government workers if they would just stop telling me what to do.

Oversight on diabetes treatment is coming. Within 5 years, if you have diabetes, they will be on your ass like white on rice to make sure you are "managing" your disease. There will be automated phone calls, website verification systems, wellness visits, penalities; its going to be huge. All they need is enough government employees to make it happen. If you don't know whats wrong with that, then you don't know what it used to be to be an American.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 10, 2009 8:45 pm

kiryan wrote:Create as many private sector jobs as you want, but I have to pay for those government workers. But to tell you truth, I'd rather pay for 10x as many new government workers if they would just stop telling me what to do.

Oversight on diabetes treatment is coming. Within 5 years, if you have diabetes, they will be on your ass like white on rice to make sure you are "managing" your disease. There will be automated phone calls, website verification systems, wellness visits, penalities; its going to be huge. All they need is enough government employees to make it happen. If you don't know whats wrong with that, then you don't know what it used to be to be an American.



Hey, that's NOTHING compared to the coverup of 9/11. Wake up, man. WAKE UP!


Seriously, got any proof of this plan or is this just your delusional ranting?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ragorn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:50 pm

kiryan wrote:Oversight on diabetes treatment is coming. Within 5 years, if you have diabetes, they will be on your ass like white on rice to make sure you are "managing" your disease. There will be automated phone calls, website verification systems, wellness visits, penalities; its going to be huge. All they need is enough government employees to make it happen. If you don't know whats wrong with that, then you don't know what it used to be to be an American.

I'll give you a dollar if anything even remotely similar to that happens.

Though in any case, it does sound easier than getting on an airplane in the "post-9/11 world."
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 11, 2009 9:36 pm

I work for a health care system that includes an insurance company and several hospitals. I go to the medicare/medicaid audit meeting and hear what the state / government is asking for and expect. I work with the infomatics analysts. I see the data they are analyzing. All the private sector pieces are already or have already been developed.

Report released just a couple days ago, 75% of the costs of healthcare are from acute treatment of two diseases, diabetes and a heart thing. its coming all in the name of good health. They already order toxicology tests to make sure you're taking your meds. Its going to get a lot more invasive over the next few years.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:28 am

Just read something that said there are 2.7 million federal government jobs. Thats just federal. And Obama wants to add another 600k.

Am I the only person that thinks we need fewer government workers?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:06 am

So you're saying you want to cut American jobs?

Why do you hate America?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:25 am

Yes. I want to cut American jobs in government.

I hate America because its turning into Europe.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 3:50 pm

http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-com ... akout.html

But it's Obama's $800 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan that will be ground zero in this coming liberal internecine battle. "Way too much Reagan, not nearly enough FDR," griped some key liberals about a plan that would, in addition to the tax cuts, still provide a whopping half-trillion dollars over two years in government spending for infrastructure, healthcare, education, clean energy, grants to states, and aid to lower-income and unemployed folks.

I should be happier about the way the Obama presidency is turning out than I am. I mean what could be better than a Democrat who supports Republican economic policy. Now if I could just get him to shrink the size of government.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:00 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.usnews.com/blogs/capital-commerce/2009/01/12/why-obama-is-causing-a-liberal-freakout.html

But it's Obama's $800 billion American Recovery and Reinvestment Plan that will be ground zero in this coming liberal internecine battle. "Way too much Reagan, not nearly enough FDR," griped some key liberals about a plan that would, in addition to the tax cuts, still provide a whopping half-trillion dollars over two years in government spending for infrastructure, healthcare, education, clean energy, grants to states, and aid to lower-income and unemployed folks.

I should be happier about the way the Obama presidency is turning out than I am. I mean what could be better than a Democrat who supports Republican economic policy.


Since when is Republican economic policy about funding education, clean energy, healthcare, infrastructure or aid to low-income families?

Now if I could just get him to shrink the size of government.


You couldn't even get Republicans to do that. Fucking stop with the stupid partisan bullshit. It's what let's politicians get away with everything they do. Jesus fucking christ get your head out of your ass. You didn't have the slightest problem with Bush doubling our deficit, but now that a Democrat does it it's suddenly bad? If it's bad, it was bad when Bush did it.

At least with Obama the spending is going back into our own country, rather than into bombs for Iraqi children.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 4:27 pm

obviously im exaggerating... but maybe you missed this. "Way too much Reagan, not nearly enough FDR,"
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:00 pm

Not trying to derail, but that whole diabetes thing...?

You can bank on it. It might not be in the format you expect it to be, such as outright monitoring of all diabetics, but you will see greater legislation concerning obesity and all the subsequent health issues it causes. "Supersize" has only begun to be a dirty word. And if you think they won't start regulating something like diabetes, wait until the day you or somebody you know is diagnosed, then give it a month or two and watch the unrequested pamphlets start rolling in.

You will also find that with many conditions like diabetes, getting care paid for from your insurance company may be more difficult. Requiring insured members and doctors to show conservative treatments for even common ailments isn't going to be unheard of.

Obesity costs this country a bundle. I never did understand why tobacco became public enemy number one when the Hamburgler does far more damage. As for the Burger King... he's so creepy, he's got to be criminal!
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Corth » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:04 pm

They're going to have to pry that big mac out of my cold dead hands!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:25 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Not trying to derail, but that whole diabetes thing...?

You can bank on it. It might not be in the format you expect it to be, such as outright monitoring of all diabetics, but you will see greater legislation concerning obesity and all the subsequent health issues it causes. "Supersize" has only begun to be a dirty word. And if you think they won't start regulating something like diabetes, wait until the day you or somebody you know is diagnosed, then give it a month or two and watch the unrequested pamphlets start rolling in.


My mom has it, and no pamphlets. Even if there were, marketing materials are capitalism in action... not government interference. If anything the government regulations that protect your medical records should help prevent unwanted marketing, as hospitals can't sell your records to drug companies in order for them to target their advertising better.

You will also find that with many conditions like diabetes, getting care paid for from your insurance company may be more difficult. Requiring insured members and doctors to show conservative treatments for even common ailments isn't going to be unheard of.


What do insurance company practices have to do with the government?

Obesity costs this country a bundle. I never did understand why tobacco became public enemy number one when the Hamburgler does far more damage. As for the Burger King... he's so creepy, he's got to be criminal!


Walking by someone who is eating a cheeseburger doesn't affect me. Walking by someone smoking does.

I know you're arguing healthcare costs, but I'm really not convinced that the health problems caused by smoking are lesser than the health problems caused by obesity. Especially since most obesity related ones can be fixed by losing weight, whereas with smoking the damage is done. In any case, people react better to direct nuisances rather than indirect ones.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:13 pm

Seriously, Sarvis? Seriously? Every now and then you amaze even me.

One, we were talking about the future, not now.

Two, there are going to be massive changes in healthcare over the next two decades, and any healthcare that in the future falls under government oversight is going to be subject to any regulation they deem fit. It's not considered marketing when they institute a program that requires providers or a third party to send out diet and conservative treatment plans and aids that you may be required to document usage of.

Three, ... you seriously think somebody else's cheeseburger doesn't affect you? Do you live under a rock? Do you even pay taxes? Have you been to an emergency room lately? Is there a chance you will ever have to go to an emergency room? Have you looked at the cost of a simple office visit recently? Picked up a prescription? Bought vitamins? Worked for an employer that offered insurance? Paid insurance premiums? Yeah, that cheeseburger your uncle Bill is eating rules your day whether you know it or not.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:19 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Seriously, Sarvis? Seriously? Every now and then you amaze even me.

One, we were talking about the future, not now.

Two, there are going to be massive changes in healthcare over the next two decades, and any healthcare that in the future falls under government oversight is going to be subject to any regulation they deem fit. It's not considered marketing when they institute a program that requires providers or a third party to send out diet and conservative treatment plans and aids that you may be required to document usage of.


You're a prophet now? You know exactly what's going to happen? I didn't think so. You're guessing, nothing more.

Three, ... you seriously think somebody else's cheeseburger doesn't affect you?


I said directly, didn't I? Seeing someone eat a cheeseburger has no immediate, direct effect on me. All the things you mentioned are disconnected from the actual act of eating a cheeseburger. (In fact, eating a cheeseburger is not even the problem... overeating of them is!) It's not as if every time I walk past someone eating a cheeseburger I have to put a quarter into the health insurance meter.

As I said, humans are NOT good at dealing with indirect issues. If we were, no one would smoke or overeat in the first place. The fact that there are several years between the consumption of either and the negative health effects of either is why most people engage in the activities in the first place. If you developed lung cancer the first time you took a drag, no one would smoke.



Do you live under a rock?


Do you actually read what I write?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:42 pm

is this prophet thing going to be your come back to something thats obvious that you don't want to believe?

Future trends are fairly easy to see if you pay attention. The future doesn't magically just get here, the foundation is laid every day.

You are a fool.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 14, 2009 10:09 pm

I obviously don't have the patience you other guys have. He's all yours.

Incidentally... while I won't tout myself as an expert, I do happen to work in the insurance industry. If you guys ever need some help understanding some aspects of your policy, feel free to ask. I might not be able to help, but I'll give it a shot, or try to find a helpful link for you.

And I hate HMO's, just warning you ahead of time. The first rule of an HMO is... Get a PPO.

But that's enough of that... no more derailing of Neo's thread, and no more falling into Sarvis's pits of duh.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:52 am

Yeah, you're right. I'm dumb because I don't think the Ministry of Diabetes will arrive tomorrow based on the say-so of an insurance agent and a person who wants everyone in Africa to starve to death so he can save a couple dollars on taxes. Yep.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 15, 2009 12:59 am

No, you are dumb because you reject and argue against the obvious.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 15, 2009 1:08 am

kiryan wrote:No, you are dumb because you reject and argue against the obvious.



Why is this obvious? What is the chain of events you see leading to the government so invasively monitoring people with diabetes? They don't monitor anything else so closely, not even smoking which has been thoroughly demonized at this point. There's no socialized medicine to create an excuse, and it's not even all that likely we'll have THAT anytime soon given conservative opposition and insurance company lobbyists.

Please, tell me why this is so obvious. You can't just make a claim and expect everyone to believe you. You have to convince people you're correct.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:19 am

Exactly Sarvis, people. not you. We don't have to pass your standards of evidence and proof.

You are what we call smart stupid. You could make a credible argument that the sky is not blue, but we all just think your stupid because we can look at the sky and know its blue.

Now if we could only figure out why we bother to try to convince you of anything, we could actually solve some of our own mental issues.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 1:27 am

kiryan wrote:Exactly Sarvis, people. not you. We don't have to pass your standards of evidence and proof.

You are what we call smart stupid. You could make a credible argument that the sky is not blue, but we all just think your stupid because we can look at the sky and know its blue.

Now if we could only figure out why we bother to try to convince you of anything, we could actually solve some of our own mental issues.


Ah, so the US is going to start an unprecedentedly invasive set of programs to monitor people with a specific disease because you say so. Despite the fact that Americans would never stand for it. Got it. Right. Sorry! Forgot we have no control over this country.

For fuck's sake even heavily socialist countries haven't done anything like this.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Vigis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:48 am

Who is to say Americans won't stand for it? I think Americans will probably at some point demand it.

We already have Americans who demand that every legally owned firearm in this country should be registered with the government. I find that by far a more dangerous and scarier scenario than requiring preventive medicine to keep diabetes from progressing to the point that it becomes a burden on the system; yet people call for it every single day.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:21 am

Vigis wrote:Who is to say Americans won't stand for it? I think Americans will probably at some point demand it.

We already have Americans who demand that every legally owned firearm in this country should be registered with the government. I find that by far a more dangerous and scarier scenario than requiring preventive medicine to keep diabetes from progressing to the point that it becomes a burden on the system; yet people call for it every single day.


You find registration of a weapon scarier than invasive controls into your actual personal life?

Really?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Vigis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:38 am

Absolutely. 2 quick reasons and I'm out because I won't hijack the thread, if another starts up on the subject I might pop in and comment.

Reason 1. My personal life would not be regulated. I take the proper precautions (diet, exercise, etc.) to avoid a condition that is, in most cases, self inflicted. There are already controls that do not allow us to make personal choices. Maybe someday I'd like to smoke a joint or hunt an endangered species but I can't make those choices without facing repercussions. The easy answer is that if you don't want to be regulated, don't make those choices; that's already how it is with all of our laws.

Reason 2. I am a strong believer that the right to bear arms was not instituted so that we could protect ourselves from our neighbors or protect our country from an invading force; it was instituted so that we could protect ourselves and our liberties from our own government. Think about when the Constitution was written: people felt that their government was treating them unfairly and they didn't like it. If those people had not been able to defend themselves from their legal government, this country would not have been born.

I'm not saying that I am a revolutionary or that we need to overthrow our government, but the government is absolutely the last entity who needs to know how many or what kind of firearms I have. I have no problem with my neighbor knowing I have a 12 gauge shotgun or even showing it to him when he asks, but if a federal agent ever came to my door to survey me regarding firearms that I own the response would be "None! I hate guns, they're icky!"

Chalk it up to having ancestors who fought in the revolutionary war I guess. It's been passed down from generation to generation along with the firearm(s).
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:49 am

Agreed on the intention of the 2nd amendment. In a system of checks and balances, an armed populace is the ultimate check on government. Or as a friend of mine once said, if your government can't trust you with guns, you can't trust your government.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:06 am

Vigis wrote:Absolutely. 2 quick reasons and I'm out because I won't hijack the thread, if another starts up on the subject I might pop in and comment.

Reason 1. My personal life would not be regulated. I take the proper precautions (diet, exercise, etc.) to avoid a condition that is, in most cases, self inflicted. There are already controls that do not allow us to make personal choices. Maybe someday I'd like to smoke a joint or hunt an endangered species but I can't make those choices without facing repercussions. The easy answer is that if you don't want to be regulated, don't make those choices; that's already how it is with all of our laws.

Reason 2. I am a strong believer that the right to bear arms was not instituted so that we could protect ourselves from our neighbors or protect our country from an invading force; it was instituted so that we could protect ourselves and our liberties from our own government. Think about when the Constitution was written: people felt that their government was treating them unfairly and they didn't like it. If those people had not been able to defend themselves from their legal government, this country would not have been born.

I'm not saying that I am a revolutionary or that we need to overthrow our government, but the government is absolutely the last entity who needs to know how many or what kind of firearms I have. I have no problem with my neighbor knowing I have a 12 gauge shotgun or even showing it to him when he asks, but if a federal agent ever came to my door to survey me regarding firearms that I own the response would be "None! I hate guns, they're icky!"

Chalk it up to having ancestors who fought in the revolutionary war I guess. It's been passed down from generation to generation along with the firearm(s).


I agree that the right to bear arms is at least as much so that we can fight our own government as invaders... _however_ government knowledge of you having guns isn't more dangerous than letting them have the ability to jail you for a health issue.

Frankly, if anything knowing how much firepower you have should let them know not to fuck with you, shouldn't it? ;)
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Vigis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:09 am

Sarvis wrote:Frankly, if anything knowing how much firepower you have should let them know not to fuck with you, shouldn't it? ;)


Bush Doctrine....
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Corth » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:26 am

I'm not really a hardcore Michigan Militia type.. but I think the common objection among those who believe strongly in this type of thing is that if the government knows who has the guns, then it will be able to easily confiscate them if it becomes tyranical, which is exactly when you need the guns in the first place.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Vigis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:29 am

You hit the nail on the head Corth.

It's kind of like carrying a condom, you might never need it but you sure don't want to need it and not have it :)
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 16, 2009 5:36 am

Ok, fine... but if you give up every other right as long as you get to keep your guns, the government gets to be tyrannical anyway.

I mean, if you're ok with the government monitoring and forcing tests on people then what's the point of you having a gun? You're letting the government get away with exactly what you wanted guns to prevent! Sure you didn't choose to have diabetes, but you'll need to be tested anyway since there's a genetic predisposition. IF you have THAT then you'd be forced into the same kind of control.

But all that would be ok, as long as they don't know you have a gun.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:07 am

I always found it weird that the political party that favors guns and Michigan Militias is the party who has done more to strip our civil rights than any other adminstration in history.

Shouldn't you people be bearing arms?
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 16, 2009 6:53 am

With the right to bear arms, you can put some oomph into protecting your other rights. I think its important to note that this is the 2nd amendment, coming only behind the right to free speech. I think its pretty clear how important they thought this was.

Apparently running on our ticket doesn't mean you have conservative values anymore. Look at McCain. but anyways... who was it that first started raising alarm bells over Bush's trampling of our rights and expanding government. conservatives. Way before the senate voted 99-1 to approve it, there were ultra conservative groups having god damn fits myself included.

Truth be told, I'm not sure I wouldn't have made the same decisions he made in his shoes. None of us really know what he thought he was facing, or was actually facing. We just have the slander the Democrats blitzed us with when it was convenient for them to win an election. It'll be interesting to watch Obama, he's already acting a lot more conservative than we could've hoped. Lowering taxes, swearing in on a Bible with the invocation prayer given by an anti gay religious pastor.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby Kifle » Sat Jan 17, 2009 5:45 pm

kiryan wrote:With the right to bear arms, you can put some oomph into protecting your other rights. I think its important to note that this is the 2nd amendment, coming only behind the right to free speech. I think its pretty clear how important they thought this was.


In the 18th century... when our "army" relied on militias and guerilla tactics.
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Re: Democrats new formula: cut taxes and raise spending.

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Jan 20, 2009 6:16 pm

Ragorn wrote:Only a republican would bitch about 600,000 new jobs being created in a time when our economy is falling apart. Only a republican.

Yes, we did!


Democrat: "Ok, you 6 million people with jobs, give me 10% of your salary additionally."
Democrat: "Ok, we've created 600,000 'new' jobs."

Only a democrat. Yeah, you're gonna.
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