The Game

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Sarvis
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:53 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Ok Kifle, AKA "Mr. Women are Simple" maybe you can explain something to me...

If you're on a dance floor and a girl is dancing nearby, but keeps looking back towards you and inching closer until she's practically grinding you... isn't that some kind of signal that she'd want to dance with you?

Yet every time I try to approach for that, I get a funny look or otherwise turned down. (Girl on Friday wagged her finger at me... but looked more amused than anything.)

Are they just playing mind games, or am I approaching wrong... or both?

/how ARE you supposed to start dancing with a girl anyway... haven't quite mastered that trick yet :(


It depends. Is she looking at you in the face as she backs up, or is she looking at the floor or your body? She could just be seeing how much room she has before she would bump in to you. If she looks at you and smiles, then you're more than likely getting the go ahead if she's also backing up. If she smiles and doesn't move, there's a high probability that she's just being friendly because she accidentally made eye contact with you. The context of the action is infinitely more important than the action itself.


In Friday's case it was several quick glances back, but she ended up moving in so close that I would have had to step back to avoid bumping into her... I think she did smile a couple of the times, but I don't think we actually made eye contact partially because we were both dancing and I was trying not to be staring at her the whole time...

As for initiating dancing with a woman, your best luck is to get a wingman. Girls usually travel in packs unless they are with guys already. Most girls worth dancing with will not leave their uggo friends behind for various obvious reasons, so a wingman to take one for the team is always a good thing -- unless you're model hot. If you're already on the floor, make sure you can dance -- not just think you can dance.


I meant when already dancing, as in the situation above. Actually, I'm pretty sure I _can't_ dance but I do enjoy it... and figure as long as I'm there I might as well take advantage of any opportunities that present. Basically I'm wondering if I'm just making the wrong move when I think I'm getting a signal...

Rarely will a woman single out the guy that can't dance to go dance with. And, sadly, your physical appearance has a lot to do with it if you're trying to meet people on the dance floor. I have no idea what you look like, but if you have short-comings, be humerous about them. For example, if you're chunky, act like you're showing off your body but make it a bit sarcastic.



I'm definitely not good enough at dancing to be sarcastic through dancing!


But, really, do you want to find a girl who goes to clubs and dances? I wouldn't say the probability of finding a "good" girl at those places to be very high at all. And your age probably is getting on the upper end to bag most chicks you'll see (I'm only guessing). At this point, the meetings, female friends, work, etc. are all probably where you'll find what you really want in the long run. Don't settle for short-term. You don't seem like the kind of guy that will either be able to handle it or truly want it anyway.


So what, only "certain kinds" of girls dance now? Last I checked it was pretty hard to find ANY women who don't like to dance...

What ever happened to that girl that wanted to be friends that you met up with a short while back?


I called her to see if she wanted to get together, ended up leaving a message and she never returned my call.

Which makes no sense, considering how well we had gotten along and that we spent an hour talking after we left the restaurant...
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Mon Jun 29, 2009 9:00 am

Sarvis wrote:In Friday's case it was several quick glances back, but she ended up moving in so close that I would have had to step back to avoid bumping into her... I think she did smile a couple of the times, but I don't think we actually made eye contact partially because we were both dancing and I was trying not to be staring at her the whole time...

I meant when already dancing, as in the situation above. Actually, I'm pretty sure I _can't_ dance but I do enjoy it... and figure as long as I'm there I might as well take advantage of any opportunities that present. Basically I'm wondering if I'm just making the wrong move when I think I'm getting a signal...

I'm definitely not good enough at dancing to be sarcastic through dancing!


So what, only "certain kinds" of girls dance now? Last I checked it was pretty hard to find ANY women who don't like to dance...

I called her to see if she wanted to get together, ended up leaving a message and she never returned my call.

Which makes no sense, considering how well we had gotten along and that we spent an hour talking after we left the restaurant...


Well, I can only say what I would or wouldn't do in some cases, but I wouldn't dance if I didn't know how -- if only for the fact that I wouldn't want to give away that I didn't have any rhythm :) However, the opposite could happen in that it is a sign of confidence. Like everything else, it's hit and miss. There's no hard/fast way to get the ladies, and all of them like different things/are attracted to different things. But, if you're comfortable doing it, have a ball.

As for the signals, again, it's really contextual. The smile thing could be a polite smile or a flirtatious smile. It's too bad you don't live around here. It would actually be pretty fun to take you out looking for a lady.

As for the "certain kinds," I wasn't trying to be judgmental. In my experience, there are three types of women who "usually" go dancing: those who are looking to just fuck around with their friends because dancing to them is like paintball for guys, bar whores, and girls that are with guys already. Your best shot is with the first, but you have to deal with the herd mentality of "just having fun with the girls" thing. It's doable, but it helps to have a group of your own with you.

Now, I don't want to sound like I know it all, but girls really aren't anymore of a mystery than men. If you know people, you know women. So, don't take any of what I say as if I were trying to state natural law. This is all from my experiences and those I know well from other people. I figure I have enough data to make decently accurate statements, and I don't think I've said anything too off-base. The trick is to just not care. When looking for a woman, it is more about you than them. If your ego can handle rejection, it will be much easier for you in the long run because you never have to second guess whether or not "it" was a signal or not -- just always assume it was, play your hand, and move to the next round if it doesn't work out. It's not like you have to work with these girls or ever see them again.

And an idea that I haven't seen anyone suggest yet: take a friend who is a girl out and have her help.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:46 am

So, one of the girls in my meetup group (who is assistant organizer for another group where I actually met her) apparently has an "open marriage." We ended up back at her place tonight, where we made out a little before she decided she might not be comfortable having me spend the night... so I graciously backed off an took a cab back to my car to drive home.

I'm _way_ out of my depth here... how would a situation like this be properly handled? You know, in case this happens again or I see this girl again soon... like tomorrow night.
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Re: The Game

Postby Pril » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:50 pm

Much like with Kayla... RUN AWAY
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Re: The Game

Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 03, 2009 1:03 pm

I'd say he pretty much knows what to do but feels some masochistic need to post here, LOL

(Take her blindfolded and in a cab to your house!)

Next, on Springer ...
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:13 pm

Ambar wrote:I'd say he pretty much knows what to do but feels some masochistic need to post here, LOL

(Take her blindfolded and in a cab to your house!)

Next, on Springer ...


Why do you only try to give me advice in other threads where I don't want it?

And no, I didn't know what to do. It was kind of funny, I wasn't sure what to make of the whole open marriage thing so she kept trying to lure me back to her place... even going so far as to reassure me that we didn't have to do anything I didn't want to. Then we get there and while I'm still ambling around with a confused look on my face she grabs me and starts kissing me...

Then after a little of that decides she might not actually be ready to sleep with me yet... and then I'M the one doing the whole "we don't have to do anything you don't want to" routine...

There's a chapter on "Last Minute Resistance" in The Game... maybe I should review that...
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Fri Jul 03, 2009 3:26 pm

Fucking a chick in an open marriage is like Advanced Dating. You should master the fundamentals of Basic Dating before you embark on that shit. Tell her you aren't comfortable with her arrangement, she probably hears that a lot.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ambar » Fri Jul 03, 2009 4:39 pm

I've posted advice here :) You just chose to ignore when women offer advice and gravitate toward the guys. I know Kelly has offered very very good advice and .. you ignore it :) I'd guess most of the women who post here have given up on you as hopeless. Eventually you will find the woman you will spend the rest of your life with but my guess is you wont find her in a hookup group who meets in bars unless the type of woman you want is a barfly who joins hookup groups ... maybe you will but odds are you wont. You will find her when you least expect it and no amount of advice the guys here give you will be needed .. if and when it is right any blunders you make, any inappropriate remarks or crappy dancing you do .. no mistakes will matter. She will see past all the fluff and see YOU .. and the world will never be the same *wink*
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:08 pm

Ambar wrote:I've posted advice here :) You just chose to ignore when women offer advice and gravitate toward the guys. I know Kelly has offered very very good advice and .. you ignore it :) I'd guess most of the women who post here have given up on you as hopeless. Eventually you will find the woman you will spend the rest of your life with but my guess is you wont find her in a hookup group who meets in bars unless the type of woman you want is a barfly who joins hookup groups ... maybe you will but odds are you wont. You will find her when you least expect it and no amount of advice the guys here give you will be needed .. if and when it is right any blunders you make, any inappropriate remarks or crappy dancing you do .. no mistakes will matter. She will see past all the fluff and see YOU .. and the world will never be the same *wink*


Not for the last couple questions I've asked. I'm not "gravitating" towards the guys' opinions, I'm just not getting any from the girls. The generalized advice given before is fine for that, but I need specific answers on some things... yes, like how to approach a woman on the dance floor. Did "Kelly" (I don't know you guys by real names btw) cover that in her advice several months ago? What about "how to deal with an interested woman in an open marriage?" Did I miss that part?

I'm sure the advice is rattling around in there somewhere, affecting my actions... but this whole "you'll meet someone when you're not trying and least expect it" part is utter crap. I've gone through DECADES of not trying and not worrying about when I'd meet the right person, and I met NO ONE during that time. At least now, with starting meetup groups and going out trying to meet women I've... drumroll please... <i>met some women!</i>

Of course, the real question is why you'd expect the girl to "look past all the fluff and see YOU" yet it was unreasonable when I did so with Kayla...
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Re: The Game

Postby Corth » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:27 pm

Kind of agree with Sarvis (*gasp*) on that narrow point. If you want anything in life its not going to just come to you. You've got to go out and get it.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ambar » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:06 am

Of course you have to get out and meet people to meet the right person but I just don't think that meet-up (hookup) groups who always meet in bars are the groups to find solid relationships .. Why not try to have a BBQ or meet at the park and organize a game of softball or something, go bowling, meet at the coffee shop? Everyone goes to Starbucks these days. I guess I am trying to say broaden your horizons, don't keep looking in bars.. You will find the open marriage kind of people, you will find the strippers and barflys, but I don't see you meeting *that* girl in a bar. I don't know this stripper girl kayla at all, Neither do you :) You never got to know her, you fell for the girl in the stripclub who danced .. she ran off or followed some other interest and months later you STILL go gaga over her, quite possibly because you didn't get into her pants :)

We have told you your are looking in the wrong places, .. for the record, Kelly is Ashiwi .. we have given our opinion, it has been ignored .. for the record you've ignore the guys too, not just us :)

"The right girl will ignore the fluff" Ok I will use a personal example .. The guy I live with most people see as an asshole (he likes it that way) .. I know the real guy because I saw past the act he put on for others, I saw the gem inside .. sounds sappy but true .. I am not saying kayla was a bad person, but come on she ran away :P Had she wanted you she'd have contacted you either at the club or by a phone call or thru a coworker .. she didn't but you still sniff after her! How many people have to laugh at you about a non-existent thing between you and a stripper before you finally see the sun?

As far as the open relationship girl .. run away .. you are not the first guy she has approached, you wont be the last .. Unless you want a cheap thrill, stay away from that type of person .. unless you are into that kind of thing, run away .. you are at the *hey lets talk* stage .. go to her for a booty call but why go to her if there are others out there who are available for a relationship! This guy I have been friends with for a VERY long time experienced this .. his wife decided they needed an open relationship .. he'd walk into the house after work and she'd sometimes have two guys in the house at one time .. these women breed disease .. do i have to get more graphic?

I am not saying you cant find a nice girl in a bar .. nice girls go to bars too, girls like to have fun too .. For the most part, however, you will not meet your life mate in a bar .. A guy we work with meets a LOT of women online thru chat lines or local dating sites, I can see which ones he uses and there may be a similar one in Buffalo or you can probably google it .. Start slow tho .. coffee .. lunch at an inexpensive place, walk in the park, an ice cream .. something little .. do not say no if she offers to buy, this is not the 1950's .. she can pay too! If you get her cell number don't inundate her with texts, don't look too much into what she says .. give her a time or two to break plans then move on if it doesn't work, do not look back .. stop the *what does she mean by what she said* .. waste of time after a first or second date .. that crap about game playing and "she doesn't mean what she says* should have been left back in high school. If she can't answer a *Hey I didn't understand what you meant* with a straight answer .. move on ..
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 04, 2009 8:41 am

Ambar wrote:Of course you have to get out and meet people to meet the right person but I just don't think that meet-up (hookup)


They aren't really hookup groups, recent events with one girl in particular notwithstanding...

groups who always meet in bars are the groups to find solid relationships .. Why not try to have a BBQ or meet at the park and organize a game of softball or something, go bowling, meet at the coffee shop? Everyone goes to Starbucks these days.


Most of the groups I'm in DO that kind of stuff. Remember, as much as you like to parrot the line that I'm ignoring advice... this whole meetup.com thing was suggested by toril players... Yes, my group is dedicated to bars and going out for drinks. I enjoy this, and don't have that much opportunity to engage in such activitys through my normal (nerdy) friends. As you (eventually) admit in your post, all kinds of girls go out drinking... I see no reason I can't meet the right girl in a bar. You may not have, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I guess I am trying to say broaden your horizons, don't keep looking in bars.. You will find the open marriage kind of people, you will find the strippers and barflys, but I don't see you meeting *that* girl in a bar. I don't know this stripper girl kayla at all, Neither do you :) You never got to know her, you fell for the girl in the stripclub who danced .. she ran off or followed some other interest and months later you STILL go gaga over her, quite possibly because you didn't get into her pants :)


No, that's not why. Honestly, she taught me the difference between a girl I like and am attracted to and a girl I... I hesitate to say love, but how I felt about her is definitely different than any other girl I've liked and wanted to fuck. And yes, if I ever see her again I will make a play for her. I'm already dreading having to "open a set" to try and hit on her... but I WILL do it.


We have told you your are looking in the wrong places, .. for the record, Kelly is Ashiwi .. we have given our opinion, it has been ignored .. for the record you've ignore the guys too, not just us :)


Not as much as you think...

"The right girl will ignore the fluff" Ok I will use a personal example .. The guy I live with most people see as an asshole (he likes it that way) ..


I seriously could have used that quote in a couple Fark threads where I was arguing that chicks don't go for nice guys...

I know the real guy because I saw past the act he put on for others, I saw the gem inside .. sounds sappy but true .. I am not saying kayla was a bad person, but come on she ran away :P Had she wanted you she'd have contacted you either at the club or by a phone call or thru a coworker .. she didn't but you still sniff after her! How many people have to laugh at you about a non-existent thing between you and a stripper before you finally see the sun?


More than 5 people over the internet. Plus, you weren't there... and I'm not gifted enough with words to convey our interactions properly. I know there was something there at the beginning.. .the only real question is when I destroyed it by being stupid.

Stop making me think about Kayla.

As far as the open relationship girl .. run away .. you are not the first guy she has approached,


I'm actually not sure about that, given the chickening out factor. I wonder if I was the first... I don't think they've been married all that long... and if she'd already fucked like 20 other guys you'd think the reservations would be long gone by now. Maybe I'm just... can't think of the word atm. But wishful thinking, I guess.

you wont be the last .. Unless you want a cheap thrill, stay away from that type of person .. unless you are into that kind of thing, run away .. you are at the *hey lets talk* stage .. go to her for a booty call but why go to her if there are others out there who are available for a relationship! This guy I have been friends with for a VERY long time experienced this .. his wife decided they needed an open relationship .. he'd walk into the house after work and she'd sometimes have two guys in the house at one time .. these women breed disease .. do i have to get more graphic?


It's funny, but as we were driving to her house, I mentioned kayla (not details.. just some girl I had liked) and how I could never imagine sharing her. I don't claim to understand the open marriage thing, but can't I take advantage of it? You (and probably Ash) have mentioned desperation being an automatic deal killer... I can only imagine I'd be less desperate if I'd had sex recently. I would rather have sex in a relationship... but a "friends with benefits" deal seems like it could only lessen my desperation...

I am not saying you cant find a nice girl in a bar .. nice girls go to bars too, girls like to have fun too .. For the most part, however, you will not meet your life mate in a bar .. A guy we work with meets a LOT of women online thru chat lines or local dating sites, I can see which ones he uses and there may be a similar one in Buffalo or you can probably google it ..


I'm even more of an utter failure at dating sites than in real life... I was even rejected by eHarmony... :(

Start slow tho .. coffee .. lunch at an inexpensive place, walk in the park, an ice cream .. something little .. do not say no if she offers to buy, this is not the 1950's .. she can pay too!


I guess... I dunno, I feel weird not paying. Would have been nice though, in Jess's case.

If you get her cell number don't inundate her with texts,


Or calls, of course. I don't. (The one time my slight phobia of calling people is useful...)

don't look too much into what she says .. give her a time or two to break plans then move on if it doesn't work, do not look back .. stop the *what does she mean by what she said* .. waste of time after a first or second date .. that crap about game playing and "she doesn't mean what she says* should have been left back in high school. If she can't answer a *Hey I didn't understand what you meant* with a straight answer .. move on ..
[/quote][/quote]

Hey, remember... my actual experience level with dating is probably less than your average 12th graders. I ask this stuff here because I honestly don't know what to make of it, or how to deal with it. Like Rags' said, I haven't mastered basic dating yet. (Not that I ever wait to master the basics before moving on to the advanced stuff...)


EDIT: And you STILL didn't cover the dance floor question... :(
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Re: The Game

Postby Ambar » Sat Jul 04, 2009 2:40 pm

I guess you are hopeless :) Sorry I wasted our time :)

I'd bet 12th grade boys have more girl smarts than you do, I will continue to just read and laugh so please keep posting :)

It REALLY puts me off for you to quote snippets of stuff then misconstrue the whole thing .. that is all :) Enjoy your barflys
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 04, 2009 3:17 pm

Ambar wrote:I guess you are hopeless :) Sorry I wasted our time :)

I'd bet 12th grade boys have more girl smarts than you do, I will continue to just read and laugh so please keep posting :)


Considering I said this myself earlier... I wonder if you didn't misconstrue everything I said?

It REALLY puts me off for you to quote snippets of stuff then misconstrue the whole thing .. that is all :) Enjoy your barflys


What did I misconstrue, exactly?

I get it, you don't think I'll meet a girl I actually like at a bar. I just think you're wrong. 90% of the other stuff was just (drunken) stream of consciousness responding...

And you STILL haven't given me a hint on how to approach a girl on the dance floor...

But thanks for writing me off. At least I won't have to hear "advice" that boils down to berating me for not knowing what I'm doing.
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Sun Jul 05, 2009 9:22 am

Dance floor: eye contact, smile, look away. If she smiles back -- not an uncomfortable smile -- order a vodka cranberry and a beer. Go give her the vodka when she starts leaving the floor. You can't dance, so it's best not to go to the floor for her. Make sure she isn't there with a guy. Go out with friends if you're unsure of these things. Introduce yourself, ask her name. If she tells you, ask her questions. Keep the conversation on her. Say her name often but don't over-do it, smile, and avoid too much eye contact (don't look down though). After 10 minutes of light conversation, say you have to leave to meet some friends, finish your beer, get her number and leave (this gives her the impression you're not trying to just fuck her... tons of goodie points). Another option is to just write your name/number on a piece of paper and give it to her as you stand up to walk away. Call her 2 days from then. If she gives you the run around or you get an answering machine, leave your name, where you met, and your number. Don't ever call her again unless she calls back. Wash, rinse, repeat -- to some extent.

Bar girls: yes, most are whores, taken, or not interested; however, there are a few good ones occasionally. My friend met his wife at a bar who was there for a bachelorette party. This is unlikely to happen to you. You have shitty confidence, so going into low probability areas for girls is not doing you any favors. You need confidence for women. You can't fake it -- most of the time.

On these meet-ups, don't just concentrate on the girls. Make friends with the guys. Most likely they are after girls as well. Go out with them and use them as wingmen.

Go after easy targets first to build confidence and practice your talking game. Practice makes perfect, and stumbling over your words is a turn-off for most chicks. That "cute" shit doesn't work most of the time. Jerk off before you go out to help you think straight.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ambar » Sun Jul 05, 2009 1:29 pm

Eh don't assume all women like vodka cranberry, or fruity drinks in general, she may be the Jager girl, heh .. I dunno that would put me off more then "Hey can I buy you a drink" and I would most likely say yes to a dance with a guy who bought me a drink I like than one I didn't like even if he couldn't dance.
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:38 am

Ambar wrote:Eh don't assume all women like vodka cranberry, or fruity drinks in general, she may be the Jager girl, heh .. I dunno that would put me off more then "Hey can I buy you a drink" and I would most likely say yes to a dance with a guy who bought me a drink I like than one I didn't like even if he couldn't dance.


If you ask, they can say no. The probability that a girl drinks vodka and cranberry is very high. You're basically forcing them into a conversation that they didn't know they wanted to have. Most people read the book by the cover... if your cover isn't the best, you have to do things that deviate from throwing yourself into a dance with them or asking if they'd like a drink. Sending drinks over just waste money. Best bet is buy a high probability drink such as vodka/cranberry. If you can tell what she's already drinking, even better. The key is that you're forcing the conversation to happen rather than letting them judge you before you even have a chance. Like I said, with a bit of practice with your talking game, this is how you will get a girl at a bar. Then again, Sarvis could be dead fucking sexy but really weird around girls. I have no idea. But based on this thread, I'm assuming you're a bit chubby and average looking -- or have low self-esteem. I have no idea really.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:30 pm

Sarvis wrote:I see no reason I can't meet the right girl in a bar. You may not have, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

This is you ignoring advice.

And yes, if I ever see [Kayla] again I will make a play for her. I'm already dreading having to "open a set" to try and hit on her... but I WILL do it.

This is you ignoring advice. Lots and lots of advice.

I'm actually not sure about that, given the chickening out factor. I wonder if I was the first... I don't think they've been married all that long...

She didn't chicken out, she just didn't want to fuck you. She has an open marriage for christ's sake... she's probably been swinging with her husband since the days when he was just her boyfriend. You're not the first. You're not even in the first dozen. You just said or did something during the course of the evening that made her change her mind about wanting to sleep with you. In any case, don't hook up with married women in open relationships. They aren't looking for the same thing you're looking for. She wanted you to shag her nasty, then catch a cab home so she could watch Scrubs reruns.

It's funny, but as we were driving to her house, I mentioned kayla (not details.. just some girl I had liked) and how I could never imagine sharing her. I don't claim to understand the open marriage thing, but can't I take advantage of it? You (and probably Ash) have mentioned desperation being an automatic deal killer... I can only imagine I'd be less desperate if I'd had sex recently. I would rather have sex in a relationship... but a "friends with benefits" deal seems like it could only lessen my desperation...

Oh, that's why she didn't want to sleep with you. You were on your way to scoring some guilt-free, one-night sex, and what you did was open your mouth about how you get so attached to women that you can't stop talking about them months after they turn you down. Do you think a chick in an open marriage wants to hear about how you could never imagine sharing your partner with anyone? Her relationship and her attitude toward love and sex revolve entirely around sharing her partner openly. You basically put a big stamp on your head that says "not suitable for open relationships," which is why you didn't get any.

I guess... I dunno, I feel weird not paying. Would have been nice though, in Jess's case.

Get over it. Seriously, get over it. I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just useful advice.

Hey, remember... my actual experience level with dating is probably less than your average 12th graders. I ask this stuff here because I honestly don't know what to make of it, or how to deal with it. Like Rags' said, I haven't mastered basic dating yet. (Not that I ever wait to master the basics before moving on to the advanced stuff...)

Keep asking, but understand why you get the responses you get. You're difficult to talk to because rather than accepting the advice you're given, you get defensive. You often try to justify the thing you're already doing, rather than adapting yourself to what's being suggested to you. That's why Ambar thinks you're hopeless... because it seems like no matter how many times you're told not to do something, you do it anyway and then make a thread about why it didn't work.

Also, stop posting when you're drunk. You have a tendency to say something stupid and then to justify it later by saying it was a drunken rambling. Knock it off. People are trying to help you, the least you could do is be sober when you talk to them about your problems.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 1:32 pm

Kifle wrote:If you ask, they can say no. The probability that a girl drinks vodka and cranberry is very high.

Doesn't matter what she's drinking, you should never walk up to a girl at a bar with a drink in your hand. If she's got two brain cells to rub together, she'll decline it on principle because she suspects you of trying to drug her.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 2:34 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I see no reason I can't meet the right girl in a bar. You may not have, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible.

This is you ignoring advice.

And yes, if I ever see [Kayla] again I will make a play for her. I'm already dreading having to "open a set" to try and hit on her... but I WILL do it.

This is you ignoring advice. Lots and lots of advice.


There's a difference between ignoring advice and disagreeing with it. Let's face it, I'm being told

1) That the primary avenue people have used for meeting others for thousands of years is the wrong way of attempting to meet someone.

2) That someone none of you even know, AT ALL, is a terrible person because of her old job and therefore I shouldn't be interested in her.

And you wonder why I get defensive or don't listen?

The really fun part is how this is all circled around NOT getting answers to the questions I do ask. Why do you think I keep asking Ambar about the dancing thing? Yet instead of direct answers all I get is "oh you wouldn't/shouldn't want to" or that's "not what I'm looking for." You know what? It IS what I'm looking for. I want to meet some women and fuck them. (Ok, let's be realistic... I might not be comfortable with a one night stand, but getting a couple dates with a girl even if she isn't "the One" and sleeping with her if there's enough attraction IS what I'm looking for.) Stop assuming otherwise and giving me advice based on your assumptions about me AND the women I'm meeting, and maybe I'll stop being defensive.

Just a thought.

I'm actually not sure about that, given the chickening out factor. I wonder if I was the first... I don't think they've been married all that long...

She didn't chicken out, she just didn't want to fuck you. She has an open marriage for christ's sake... she's probably been swinging with her husband since the days when he was just her boyfriend. You're not the first. You're not even in the first dozen. You just said or did something during the course of the evening that made her change her mind about wanting to sleep with you. In any case, don't hook up with married women in open relationships. They aren't looking for the same thing you're looking for. She wanted you to shag her nasty, then catch a cab home so she could watch Scrubs reruns.


Oddly enough, I did want to shag her nasty and then catch a cab ride home... there you go with your assumptions again!

It's funny, but as we were driving to her house, I mentioned kayla (not details.. just some girl I had liked) and how I could never imagine sharing her. I don't claim to understand the open marriage thing, but can't I take advantage of it? You (and probably Ash) have mentioned desperation being an automatic deal killer... I can only imagine I'd be less desperate if I'd had sex recently. I would rather have sex in a relationship... but a "friends with benefits" deal seems like it could only lessen my desperation...

Oh, that's why she didn't want to sleep with you. You were on your way to scoring some guilt-free, one-night sex, and what you did was open your mouth about how you get so attached to women that you can't stop talking about them months after they turn you down. Do you think a chick in an open marriage wants to hear about how you could never imagine sharing your partner with anyone? Her relationship and her attitude toward love and sex revolve entirely around sharing her partner openly. You basically put a big stamp on your head that says "not suitable for open relationships," which is why you didn't get any.


Yeah, once I sobered up and got some sleep I realized it was a pretty stupid thing to say. That said, we did start fooling around a little when we got there... so not sure THAT was the deal breaker exactly. *shrug*


I guess... I dunno, I feel weird not paying. Would have been nice though, in Jess's case.

Get over it. Seriously, get over it. I'm not saying that to be mean, it's just useful advice.


Yeah...

Hey, remember... my actual experience level with dating is probably less than your average 12th graders. I ask this stuff here because I honestly don't know what to make of it, or how to deal with it. Like Rags' said, I haven't mastered basic dating yet. (Not that I ever wait to master the basics before moving on to the advanced stuff...)

Keep asking, but understand why you get the responses you get. You're difficult to talk to because rather than accepting the advice you're given, you get defensive.


Because no one actually bothers to answer the question. Did I challenge every point Kifle made when he offered advice on picking up women on the dance floor? Compare that to Ambar's post saying I just shouldn't do it, and wonder why oh why I got defensive with her.

You often try to justify the thing you're already doing, rather than adapting yourself to what's being suggested to you. That's why Ambar thinks you're hopeless... because it seems like no matter how many times you're told not to do something, you do it anyway and then make a thread about why it didn't work.


Again, because I'm asking HOW to do something better... not whether or not I should do it. So yes, I will keep going dancing on Fridays, and hosting happy hour meetup groups, and trying to meet women in bars. But don't sit there and lecture me on how everyone I'd meet in a bar must be a slut, how it's not what I'm looking for and tell me that I need to just stop trying in order to meet someone. Because

1) That doesn't answer my question
2) You're making thousands of assumptions about me, the people I'd meet, AND what I'm looking for in general.

Don't be surprised when someone doesn't accept that kind of "advice."

It's really hilarious that half the stuff that's going on NOW is a result of following peoples' advice and joining groups from meetup.com, yet a few of you persist in claiming I ignore everything. Yet, again, those few posts recommending it were EXACTLY answers to the question I had asked, which was basically "how do you meet people." All the argument and defensiveness in that thread was directed at people who, instead of answering that basic question, made assumptions about me and challenged me on those assumptions. From Ash feeling the need to point out I need to brush my teeth to Kifle, in this thread, assuming I'm chubby and unattractive.

Now let's compare that kind of "advice" with what I got from a "pick up artist" forum when I asked the same exact dance floor question I asked here:

"f u feel like you are egtting a signal, then hell..approach her
if u werent getting one, well u still made an approach

when im on the dance floor and i feel a girl keeps looking over at me, ill go over to her and say, "So are you going to stare at me all day, or are you going to dance with me\talk to me?"

or if a girl bumps me i'll act like she grabbed my ass or something or ill say "if you wanna dance with me all u gotta do is ask.."

i duno, if you just go up to them, thats already going to help you out. but dont hesitate cuz thats the worse u can do besdies not going at all"


Can you see how that is different from the "advice" Ambar offers? I'm almost certainly going to try the "If you wanna dance all you gotta do is ask" line the next time I'm in the situation I described. (You know, unless I chicken out.)


Also, stop posting when you're drunk. You have a tendency to say something stupid and then to justify it later by saying it was a drunken rambling. Knock it off. People are trying to help you, the least you could do is be sober when you talk to them about your problems.


Not likely to happen, I'll be drunk and not in my best decision making frame of mind. Besides, it's probably a slightly more honest glimpse into what I'm thinking when I'm out on the town...

I wasn't trying to justify anything, by the way, when I told Ambar it was drunken rambling. I was just pointing out that I was responding to her points, without regard to following/misconstruing what she had said. I don't think anything I said was particularly stupid, though the grammar or spelling may be negatively affected.
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 06, 2009 3:44 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Kifle wrote:If you ask, they can say no. The probability that a girl drinks vodka and cranberry is very high.

Doesn't matter what she's drinking, you should never walk up to a girl at a bar with a drink in your hand. If she's got two brain cells to rub together, she'll decline it on principle because she suspects you of trying to drug her.


I suppose if you're in a college shithole bar. If you hang out in higher end bars, this isn't a problem.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:34 pm

Kifle wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
Kifle wrote:If you ask, they can say no. The probability that a girl drinks vodka and cranberry is very high.

Doesn't matter what she's drinking, you should never walk up to a girl at a bar with a drink in your hand. If she's got two brain cells to rub together, she'll decline it on principle because she suspects you of trying to drug her.


I suppose if you're in a college shithole bar. If you hang out in higher end bars, this isn't a problem.



I bought a drink for a girl once without asking her... we'd been talking earlier and I mentioned an unusual drink that I like. She said it sounded good, so I bought one for her next time I got a drink... then I backed off to hang out with my friends for a bit. She did drink it and say she liked it (which makes her the 2nd person ever to like it besides me)

She did drink it though, and didn't seem suspicious or worried when I gave it to her... (Didn't get her number though, I asked and she wanted mine instead... then never called. Mentioned having a kid anyway, so probably better off.)
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:05 pm

Sarvis wrote:There's a difference between ignoring advice and disagreeing with it. Let's face it, I'm being told

1) That the primary avenue people have used for meeting others for thousands of years is the wrong way of attempting to meet someone.

2) That someone none of you even know, AT ALL, is a terrible person because of her old job and therefore I shouldn't be interested in her.

And you wonder why I get defensive or don't listen?

The really fun part is how this is all circled around NOT getting answers to the questions I do ask. Why do you think I keep asking Ambar about the dancing thing? Yet instead of direct answers all I get is "oh you wouldn't/shouldn't want to" or that's "not what I'm looking for."

Ok, I'll try to take everything you've said here into consideration.

1) Bars are not the primary avenue people meet each other. But since you seem to think they are, and because you don't want an answer to a question you didn't ask, go back through the thread and read my and Kifle's suggestions for meeting girls in bars. You've already been given some pretty good advice about how to go about it.

2) I don't think she's a terrible person. And I advise you to forget about her not because she's a stripper, but because she's clearly not interested in dating you based on the information YOU have provided us about the way she acts. She doesn't call you, she doesn't always return your calls, and she never meets you outside of work. 1+1+1= she's just not that into you. The fact that she's a stripper only supports my conclusion, because she's quite literally PAID to trick men into think she's interested in them.

Oddly enough, I did want to shag her nasty and then catch a cab ride home... there you go with your assumptions again!

(Ok, let's be realistic... I might not be comfortable with a one night stand,

Golly sarvis, how would I ever have come to that conclusion?

The very first post in this thread is you bitching about The Game, which is a book which gives you pretty clear instructions on how to have a one night stand. You've been very clear that you aren't looking to pick up a skank at a bar and fuck her. So make up your mind... do you want tips on how to fuck a bar skank, or do you want help finding a positive and lasting relationship? The two are as different as cricket and calculus.

Yeah, once I sobered up and got some sleep I realized it was a pretty stupid thing to say. That said, we did start fooling around a little when we got there... so not sure THAT was the deal breaker exactly. *shrug*

Maybe, maybe not. I dunno. Clearly there was a dealbreaker, and I don't think it was "she's never done this before and she got cold feet." You fucked up somewhere along the line.

You often try to justify the thing you're already doing, rather than adapting yourself to what's being suggested to you. That's why Ambar thinks you're hopeless... because it seems like no matter how many times you're told not to do something, you do it anyway and then make a thread about why it didn't work.


Again, because I'm asking HOW to do something better... not whether or not I should do it. So yes, I will keep going dancing on Fridays, and hosting happy hour meetup groups, and trying to meet women in bars. But don't sit there and lecture me on how everyone I'd meet in a bar must be a slut, how it's not what I'm looking for and tell me that I need to just stop trying in order to meet someone. Because

1) That doesn't answer my question
2) You're making thousands of assumptions about me, the people I'd meet, AND what I'm looking for in general.

Don't be surprised when someone doesn't accept that kind of "advice."

Sarvis, you don't know how to date. You've admitted that, and you've made it clear in this thread and others. It's ok that you don't, it's a skill that you pick up on through experience, and not everyone goes out and has those kinds of experiences.

Earlier, you asked how to handle the situtation with the woman in the open marriage. I know you didn't get the answer you were looking for... you were looking for some tips on how to handle those encounters, and what you got was a lot of advice to avoid them in the first place. I told you to master Basic Dating before you try to embark on Advanced Dating, and I know you weren't looking for that response. But you asking how to manage an open relationship is like a new driver asking how to start a car in third gear. Yes... it CAN be done, I can tell you how to start a car in third gear. But the RIGHT answer to that question is to tell the kid to put the car in first gear, and worry about third gear later. That's why you're not getting answers to the questions you're asking... you're trying to start your car in third gear.

Setting up the meetup.com group was a good idea. That's a first-gear way to start meeting people, and I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm glad you did it. Dancing with girls in clubs is getting ahead of yourself. Suppose we told you how to make eye contact, smile, dance with a girl, and then buy her a drink. What do you do next? You have a hard time conversing with women in a quiet, sober environment. Are you going to succeed in a bar, with three drinks in you, when you can't hear her talking? Again, we can help you get there, but you don't have that foundational experience in talking to women that's going to let you succeed in the bar. And fuck dude, I don't KNOW what to tell you in those situations, because I've never picked a chick up at a bar before. I prefer relationships to one-night-stands, so I don't try to meet women at bars.

So what do you WANT? Do you want help meeting relationship-worthy girls? Or do you just want to get laid without having to pay for it? If you want to get into a relationship, then stop asking how to fuck married women and listen to us when we tell you not to waste your time.



It's really hilarious that half the stuff that's going on NOW is a result of following peoples' advice and joining groups from meetup.com, yet a few of you persist in claiming I ignore everything. Yet, again, those few posts recommending it were EXACTLY answers to the question I had asked, which was basically "how do you meet people." All the argument and defensiveness in that thread was directed at people who, instead of answering that basic question, made assumptions about me and challenged me on those assumptions. From Ash feeling the need to point out I need to brush my teeth to Kifle, in this thread, assuming I'm chubby and unattractive.

Can you see how that is different from the "advice" Ambar offers? I'm almost certainly going to try the "If you wanna dance all you gotta do is ask" line the next time I'm in the situation I described. (You know, unless I chicken out.)

Let us know how that works out for you.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:07 pm

Sarvis wrote:I bought a drink for a girl once without asking her... we'd been talking earlier and I mentioned an unusual drink that I like. She said it sounded good, so I bought one for her next time I got a drink... then I backed off to hang out with my friends for a bit. She did drink it and say she liked it (which makes her the 2nd person ever to like it besides me)

She did drink it though, and didn't seem suspicious or worried when I gave it to her... (Didn't get her number though, I asked and she wanted mine instead... then never called. Mentioned having a kid anyway, so probably better off.)

No, that's perfectly cool. What I mean is, don't walk through the crowd, sit down next to a chick you haven't talked to yet, and hand her a glass full of liquid. No girl in her right mind would see that as a positive gesture.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:04 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Oddly enough, I did want to shag her nasty and then catch a cab ride home... there you go with your assumptions again!

(Ok, let's be realistic... I might not be comfortable with a one night stand,

Golly sarvis, how would I ever have come to that conclusion?


You have to read ALL the words: "but getting a couple dates with a girl even if she isn't "the One" and sleeping with her if there's enough attraction IS what I'm looking for."

Besides, I've known this girl for a few months now so it wouldn't exactly be a one night stand either.

The very first post in this thread is you bitching about The Game, which is a book which gives you pretty clear instructions on how to have a one night stand. You've been very clear that you aren't looking to pick up a skank at a bar and fuck her. So make up your mind... do you want tips on how to fuck a bar skank, or do you want help finding a positive and lasting relationship? The two are as different as cricket and calculus.


False dichotomy FTW!

I am looking for that positive and lasting relationship, but you know what? I've been looking for that pretty much forever, so maybe for a while I'm willing to settle for something else while I look. One of the more intriguing things with the open marriage girl is that we're acquaintances already through the meetup group... so thinking if I haven't irreparably screwed this up there may be a "friends with benefits" arrangement possibility. (Hey, I wasn't kidding about skipping the basics...)


Sarvis, you don't know how to date. You've admitted that, and you've made it clear in this thread and others. It's ok that you don't, it's a skill that you pick up on through experience, and not everyone goes out and has those kinds of experiences.

Earlier, you asked how to handle the situtation with the woman in the open marriage. I know you didn't get the answer you were looking for... you were looking for some tips on how to handle those encounters, and what you got was a lot of advice to avoid them in the first place. I told you to master Basic Dating before you try to embark on Advanced Dating, and I know you weren't looking for that response. But you asking how to manage an open relationship is like a new driver asking how to start a car in third gear. Yes... it CAN be done, I can tell you how to start a car in third gear. But the RIGHT answer to that question is to tell the kid to put the car in first gear, and worry about third gear later. That's why you're not getting answers to the questions you're asking... you're trying to start your car in third gear.


So, funny story. In late June I started using ASP.NET Dynamic Data to quickly get some setup pages working for something I'd just written. I got it up and running, got the most basic of tweaks done to the system and so on.

Last month, I decided to rewrite an entire program using Dynamic Data, including nested controls, virtual data, and basically a billion other things not supported by the technology.

To follow the car metaphore, this is probably like getting halfway through driver's ed. and then going out to do some street racing.

So yeah, NOT kidding when I say I tend to skip from the basics to the advanced stuff. Just the way I work, for some reason...

Setting up the meetup.com group was a good idea. That's a first-gear way to start meeting people, and I think I speak for everyone when I say I'm glad you did it.


Considering Ambar is stuck on calling it a "hookup group" I don't think you should speak for everyone. Or am I the only one picking up on the negativity and judgmentalism in her posts?

Dancing with girls in clubs is getting ahead of yourself. Suppose we told you how to make eye contact, smile, dance with a girl, and then buy her a drink. What do you do next? You have a hard time conversing with women in a quiet, sober environment. Are you going to succeed in a bar, with three drinks in you, when you can't hear her talking?


The three drinks helps, actually.. and I've been getting better at the talking. Both through meetup groups AND continued strip club visits talking to the dancers. (Granted, I'm still dumb enough to practically tell someone in an open relationship that I can't handle an open relationship when we're on the way back to her place... but still!)

Again, we can help you get there, but you don't have that foundational experience in talking to women that's going to let you succeed in the bar. And fuck dude, I don't KNOW what to tell you in those situations, because I've never picked a chick up at a bar before. I prefer relationships to one-night-stands, so I don't try to meet women at bars.


Still not buying the idea that you can't meet someone for a relationship in a bar.

So what do you WANT? Do you want help meeting relationship-worthy girls? Or do you just want to get laid without having to pay for it? If you want to get into a relationship, then stop asking how to fuck married women and listen to us when we tell you not to waste your time.


I seem to remember a couple nuggets that have been bandied about quite a bit on these forums:

1) If you look for a relationship you come off as desperate and women don't want you.
2) Women aren't attracted to men who aren't confident

Now, I'll posit a question:

If I have a regular source of sex, and a married woman has chosen me to be her fuck-buddy, wouldn't I be less desperate and more confident? And less worried about finding someone as I have my sexual desires being gratified?

I'm not entirely certain how I feel about actual one night stands, but I've basically come to the conclusion that men who ARE successful at meeting women (in bars or otherwise) are naturally more desirable to women because they are more confident in their abilities and less worried about actually getting laid. Maybe there's another path to having those same attributes, but I don't see it.

Let us know how that works out for you.


Even if I've been drinking? ;)
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:53 pm

So yeah, NOT kidding when I say I tend to skip from the basics to the advanced stuff. Just the way I work, for some reason...

Huh. Then it's a complete mystery to me why you're not getting laid.

I dunno what to tell you, man. We're back to the same old story, and I'm kinda tired of arguing with you.
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Re: The Game

Postby Pril » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:06 pm

Sarvis wrote:I'm not entirely certain how I feel about actual one night stands, but I've basically come to the conclusion that men who ARE successful at meeting women (in bars or otherwise) are naturally more desirable to women because they are more confident in their abilities and less worried about actually getting laid. Maybe there's another path to having those same attributes, but I don't see it.


The other path to those attributes that you don't see is to have a fulfilling life where you don't feel like you HAVE to get laid. Go rock climbing go seal clubbing go whatever and when you stop worrying about getting laid and start having a fulfilling life you will find a cute girl standing next to you covered in baby seal blood with a club in her hand.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:10 pm

Pril wrote:...you will find a cute girl standing next to you covered in baby seal blood with a club in her hand.



I think you may have spent a little too much time mudding. Or seal clubbing, possibly...

I don't think rock climbing will quite replace the desire for sex. Women are so much softer and warmer...

Also, back to that whole "magically appearing" thing again, which didn't work for the last 10 years so I'm not expecting it to work now. All it's done is leave me insecure about even HAVING sex since anyone I sleep with is going to expect a guy with 15 years of experience...

So yeah, not likely to build my confidence much either.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:25 pm

Ragorn wrote:
So yeah, NOT kidding when I say I tend to skip from the basics to the advanced stuff. Just the way I work, for some reason...

Huh. Then it's a complete mystery to me why you're not getting laid.

I dunno what to tell you, man. We're back to the same old story, and I'm kinda tired of arguing with you.


I wasn't even arguing with you in the previous post, just explaining my reasoning on things. If you pulled an argumentative tone or something out of that post you are simply looking for it.

Maybe I am going about things the "wrong" way.

So be it. I'll do it wrong. Doing it wrong as STILL gotten me more interaction with women in the last 6 months than in the last 15 years.

But it's equally possible you got very lucky, and have no way to understand what I'm going through. It would be like Bill Gates trying to tell me I'm wrong for working at a software company, when I wasn't lucky enough for IBM to ask me twice to write an OS for them that would grow to one of the largest companies in the world...
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:27 pm

But it's equally possible you got very lucky, and have no way to understand what I'm going through.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe the problem isn't you, maybe the problem is that I don't understand what you're going through.

But anyway, in the two months since you started this thread, I met a girl I didn't know before, asked her out, and we've been dating for a month. So maybe I got very lucky (again). Or maybe something I have to say could be reasonably close to the truth.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:55 pm

Ragorn wrote:
But it's equally possible you got very lucky, and have no way to understand what I'm going through.

Yeah, maybe. Maybe the problem isn't you, maybe the problem is that I don't understand what you're going through.

But anyway, in the two months since you started this thread, I met a girl I didn't know before, asked her out, and we've been dating for a month. So maybe I got very lucky (again). Or maybe something I have to say could be reasonably close to the truth.



You know what might be more helpful than "Look, I met someone so you're wrong and I'm going to be snide about it?"

How about: "I met this girl recently, here's how we met and how this may apply to your situation."

Bonus points if you do it without assuming I walk around smelly and dressed in rags...


(For the record, I thought you were one of the ones who met a girl through the MUD and was married already... which I would consider pretty damn lucky.)
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Re: The Game

Postby Oghma » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:07 pm

Sarvis wrote:I don't think rock climbing will quite replace the desire for sex. Women are so much softer and warmer...


I've gotta step in here for the benefits of rock climbing...

As someone who has been rock climbing for about 2 years now, rock climbing does a couple things for you.

- It gives you confidence. There is no way you can climb a vertical slab of rock when you're doubting yourself. It just doesn't work.
- It gives you the ability to trust. For every climber, you need someone belaying you. You need to be able to put your trust in that person before you scale that wall.
- You need a partner. Sure, most indoor rock climbing gyms have auto belay devices, but it's much more fun (and challenging) to climb with a partner. You end up forming a bond with those people who you trust enough to belay you, and those that trust you enough to belay them.
- Women who rock climb are hot. You use just about every muscle in your body while rock climbing. The women are tanned, toned, and strong.

Then again, most rock climbers tend to gravitate towards the left on the political spectrum, so maybe this isn't the best place for you.
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Re: The Game

Postby Pril » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:16 pm

Oghma wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I don't think rock climbing will quite replace the desire for sex. Women are so much softer and warmer...


I've gotta step in here for the benefits of rock climbing...

As someone who has been rock climbing for about 2 years now, rock climbing does a couple things for you.

- It gives you confidence. There is no way you can climb a vertical slab of rock when you're doubting yourself. It just doesn't work.
- It gives you the ability to trust. For every climber, you need someone belaying you. You need to be able to put your trust in that person before you scale that wall.
- You need a partner. Sure, most indoor rock climbing gyms have auto belay devices, but it's much more fun (and challenging) to climb with a partner. You end up forming a bond with those people who you trust enough to belay you, and those that trust you enough to belay them.
- Women who rock climb are hot. You use just about every muscle in your body while rock climbing. The women are tanned, toned, and strong.

Then again, most rock climbers tend to gravitate towards the left on the political spectrum, so maybe this isn't the best place for you.


Also if you climb while clubbing baby seals you have a nice meal at the top.
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Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:29 pm

Oghma wrote:Then again, most rock climbers tend to gravitate towards the left on the political spectrum, so maybe this isn't the best place for you.


Err... are you confusing me with someone else?
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Re: The Game

Postby Oghma » Mon Jul 06, 2009 11:53 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Oghma wrote:Then again, most rock climbers tend to gravitate towards the left on the political spectrum, so maybe this isn't the best place for you.


Err... are you confusing me with someone else?


Maybe! I skip most of the particularly contentious threads.
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jul 07, 2009 12:03 am

Sarvis wrote:(For the record, I thought you were one of the ones who met a girl through the MUD and was married already... which I would consider pretty damn lucky.)

No, I went through a fairly horrible divorce, so that's why I'm not sure why you keep calling me lucky.
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Re: The Game

Postby avak » Tue Jul 07, 2009 1:17 am

Oh, by the way, this is what Dale Carnegie has to say about it in How to Make Friends and Influence people:

I was attending a banquet one night given in Sir Ross's honor; and during the dinner, the man sitting next to me told a humorous story which hinged on the quotation "There's a divinity that shapes our ends, rough-hew them how we will."

The raconteur mentioned that the quotation was from the Bible. He was wrong. I knew that. I knew it positively. There couldn't be the slightest doubt about it. And so, to get a feeling of importance and display my superiority, I appointed myself as an unsolicited and unwelcome committee of one to correct him. He stuck to his guns. What? From Shakespeare? Impossible! Absurd! That quotation was from the Bible. And he knew it.

The storyteller was sitting on my right; and Frank Gammond, an old friend of mine, was seated at my left. Mr. Gammond had devoted years to the study of Shakespeare. So the storyteller and I agreed to submit the question to Mr. Gammond. Mr. Gammond listened, kicked me under the table, and then said: "Dale, you are wrong. The gentleman is right. It is from the Bible."

On our way home that night, I said to Mr. Gammond: "Frank, you knew that quotation was from Shakespeare."

"Yes, of course," he replied, "Hamlet, Act Give, Scene Two. But we were guests at a festive occasion, my dear Dale. Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save his face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? Always avoid the acute angle." The man who said that taught me a lesson I'll never forget. I not only had made the storyteller uncomfortable, but had put my friend in an embarassing situation. ...

You can't win an argument. You can't because if you lose it, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? Well, suppose you triumph over the other man and shoot his argument full of holes and prove that he is non compos mentis. Then what? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior. You have hurt his pride. He will resent your triumph. And --

A man convinced against his will
Is of the same opinion still.


You should read the whole thread...anyone should...funny and full of insight.

http://ask.metafilter.com/126600/I-have-a-people-problem-I-have-no-idea-what-it-is
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:17 am

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:(For the record, I thought you were one of the ones who met a girl through the MUD and was married already... which I would consider pretty damn lucky.)

No, I went through a fairly horrible divorce, so that's why I'm not sure why you keep calling me lucky.


Sorry man, didn't know that...
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Tue Jul 07, 2009 2:52 am

Sarvis, I think what Ragorn is saying, and I agree, is that you are being ambiguous about what it is you want at times, but when you do "spell out" what you want, you do it backwards. I understand that you are smart and can skip steps with things like programming, but women are a completely different ballgame. The car analogy doesn't work here because you CAN start it in third gear (why I have no idea... maybe driving on a sheet of ice?). Regardless, a better analogy would be something like pitching in baseball or shooting an accurate wrist shot. You need muscle memory for this stuff, and it ONLY comes with practice. You can't skip steps from the beginning. You can't throw a curveball without first learning what seam to put your finger on, which side of the seem the other finger has to be on, whether or not your fingers are split, etc. After the beginner's course, you then need to practice or your arm will never be able to throw a consistent curveball. You might get lucky once or twice, but pitching, like dating, is an entire game -- not one pitch. You can't be an effective pitcher with just one pitch either -- you have to do this whole process with multiple pitches. Lastly, you have to have the stamina to complete multiple innings, study batting habits, learn when to walk the batter, when to back him off the plate, etc. You're skipping everything and trying to pitch a complete game, expecting a shutout, a hoping for a no-hitter -- yet you consistently walk away from the game after being taken out after the first pitch and wonder why. Dating is not something you can just do. Sure, you could get lucky, but do you want your happiness to depend on luck or do you want to learn this stuff and be consistent, have confidence, and eventually be able to pick and choose between who you would like to go out with?

I will maintain what I said earlier and what Ragorn is telling you: stay away from bars if you want a relationship. Go to bars if you want to get laid. It's simple math. The probability of finding a good girl for a longterm relationship is low in a bar; however, finding a whore that will fuck you at the end of the night is insanely high. Even if you do find a girl that wants to "date" you, not every personality in the world is good for relationships. There are selfish people out there that do not compromise (necessary), they do not understand others (also important), and they have no intention of learning how to please their partner in the sack (extremely important). So you see how the chances of finding a "good girl" at a bar becomes even smaller here.

Now, if you want advice, I will continue to give it; however, expect the outcome that has a high probability and don't go into these situations hoping for success. Sure, it may happen, but I doubt it. The key to most women is conversation. Be funny. Not goofy funny like a moron, but witty and charming. If you don't know how to do this, learn. Humor is the bullets of your dating gun. Without them, it is pretty useless. This is what bars and bar girls are very useful for. Go to a bar without the intentions of going home with anybody but yourself. Walk in there knowing you don't give a damn what people think of you after you approach them -- because you don't want them. Next, just go up to women and start talking. Practice your game. Practice, practice, practice. Stevie Ray Vaughn didn't play little wing the first time he picked up the guitar -- you can't learn that shit by skipping the basics, the middle, or the end.

As a side note, I always find it funny when you walk past a couple where the guy is a 5 and the girl is around 7-8 and some retard always makes the comment about the guy must be rich. The fact of the matter is, most times the guy knows how to talk or he is good in the sack -- most times both. Learn from these guys.

After you have your skills, you go out and try to find the real girl.

The girls I got after high school were at a house party -- later set up by a friend (lasted 2 years), through a friend (wife 9yrs almost), and through a friend (3 months). With the exception of the last one mentioned, they were all out of my league. I got them not because I was the best looking at the party. I got them because I'm a great talker, I'm funny, and I'm outgoing. I got them because I was confident. I kept them because I'm entertaining, nice, and loyal -- and I think the bed play has something to do with it, but very little. The point is, stay out of bars unless you're wanting to fuck or boost your self-esteem with your game.

I really don't know what else to tell you. It's only hard if you have the personality of a rock or you are approaching girls way out of your league without the skills to bag them. Hunting squirrel is easy, hunting lion is dangerous. Stick with the squirrel for a while.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:37 am

So this is new. I'm out at a dance club after hosting an event with my meetup group (which one person showed up to.) Some girl taps me on the shoulder and says hi. I look confused, and she explains that she's a bartender. I still look confused. She explains she works at Devlin's Deuce, a bar I've been to exactly twice. I look slightly less confused. She says "you were there a couple weeks ago...?"

It dawns on me: I was there the week before, on a Saturday after having a TON of wine at a friend's house. I bought exactly one round of drinks before we left.

Clearly I made a pretty strong impression on this girl by ordering a single round of drinks. Is there any reason to believe I should follow up? Maybe go up to this bar with some friends tomorrow night or next weekend?

As for tonight, I said oh yeah I think I remember now... only been there a couple times. Nice to see you! I started dancing again, she disappeared (to the bathroom I think) and I went to the bathroom a few minutes later. I didn't go back out to the dance floor again, there were a couple guys trying to dance with her and I was getting tired.

Odd though, I can't imagine a bartender remembering a guy after ordering one round... though I did order an unusual drink.
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Re: The Game

Postby Botef » Sat Jul 18, 2009 5:21 pm

Image
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Re: The Game

Postby Ragorn » Sat Jul 18, 2009 7:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:SSome girl taps me on the shoulder and says hi. I look confused, and she explains that she's a bartender.

Yes!

She says "you were there a couple weeks ago...?"

Yes!

Clearly I made a pretty strong impression on this girl by ordering a single round of drinks.

Yes!

As for tonight, I said oh yeah I think I remember now... only been there a couple times. Nice to see you!

Yes!

I started dancing again

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is where you follow up "nice to see you!" with "hey can I buy you a drink?"
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:27 pm

Ragorn wrote:
I started dancing again

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

This is where you follow up "nice to see you!" with "hey can I buy you a drink?"


Yeah yeah, I know I screwed up... (though technically buying her a drink was not an option, I only had $2 left for the night.)

The question is: Have I irreparably bungled the situation, or could I pop into her bar sometime and try to pick up the fumble?
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Re: The Game

Postby avak » Sun Jul 19, 2009 12:06 am

Bartenders are generally the hardest women in the world to pick up. Why? They get hit on all freaking night. I think most of the good ones enter this Zen state where they are detached yet flirtatious. Probably a lot like...uhhh...strippers.

Anyway, yeah, I think you blew it. However, I wouldn't hesitate to stop by her bar and say hello...probably with a group of friends again, of possible. Then, hope to hell that you see her out again. And THEN, execute, man!
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:08 pm

avak wrote:Bartenders are generally the hardest women in the world to pick up. Why? They get hit on all freaking night. I think most of the good ones enter this Zen state where they are detached yet flirtatious. Probably a lot like...uhhh...strippers.

Anyway, yeah, I think you blew it. However, I wouldn't hesitate to stop by her bar and say hello...probably with a group of friends again, of possible. Then, hope to hell that you see her out again. And THEN, execute, man!


Or not be a pussy and hand her your number with the bills you pay for your drink with. Definately see her again. Confidence is key... over confidence is where it's at.
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:26 pm

Oddly, I'd view handing her my number and waiting for her to call to be the pussy way to do it. (Actually, that's basically how it ended with Kayla...)
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 20, 2009 5:21 am

Sarvis wrote:Oddly, I'd view handing her my number and waiting for her to call to be the pussy way to do it. (Actually, that's basically how it ended with Kayla...)


It's either that or ask for her number and give the uncomfortable phone call. I prefer the handing out of numbers because it avoids the prior. You know she's interested rather than wondering when you talk again. The ladies I know prefer this way as well due to the prior. You also let it happen on her terms. You give them control. People like control and doing things in their own time-frame. There's also other subtle psychological manipulation going on as well aside from the control/less stress aspect of the act. Since you're not staying around after you give her the number (it's pre-written), you avoid uncomfortable waiting. You are "giving" her something rather than taking it. You display more confidence in that the act says, "I know you want to call me" rather than the alternative, which is literally, "can I call you sometime." But, hey, if you feel like the tired "can I get your number" line is better, by all means, stick with it :) I just thought you'd want to play to your strengths rather than your weaknesses -- like dancing :)
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Re: The Game

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:11 am

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Oddly, I'd view handing her my number and waiting for her to call to be the pussy way to do it. (Actually, that's basically how it ended with Kayla...)


It's either that or ask for her number and give the uncomfortable phone call. I prefer the handing out of numbers because it avoids the prior. You know she's interested rather than wondering when you talk again. The ladies I know prefer this way as well due to the prior. You also let it happen on her terms. You give them control. People like control and doing things in their own time-frame. There's also other subtle psychological manipulation going on as well aside from the control/less stress aspect of the act. Since you're not staying around after you give her the number (it's pre-written), you avoid uncomfortable waiting. You are "giving" her something rather than taking it. You display more confidence in that the act says, "I know you want to call me" rather than the alternative, which is literally, "can I call you sometime." But, hey, if you feel like the tired "can I get your number" line is better, by all means, stick with it :) I just thought you'd want to play to your strengths rather than your weaknesses -- like dancing :)


Wait, is dancing my strength or my weakness? :?

Actually, don't answer that. :P

Anyway, it's not that I don't like the idea of handing her a business card or something and walking away... I've done it before actually.

In fact, the first time I was in that bar I hit on this one girl and she wanted my number instead of giving me hers. She never called...

One other time I was flirting with a waitress at a restaurant, and wrote my number on the receipt. Unfortunately I also forgot my credit card, so she DID call... but it was just to let me know they had my card waiting. Probably can't judge anything from that...

Also, I used to hang out with some girls in high school and they would occasionally leave the waiter their phone numbers.

I wonder if wait staff is fairly used to that tactic?

I've also heard/read that it makes the guy look "less manly" since the guy is "supposed" to be the one who calls.

Maybe I should say something, like "Sorry I didn't recognize you before. Give me a call and I'll buy you a drink to make up for it." ?

Wish I had some nice impressive business cards...
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Re: The Game

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:09 pm

Sarvis wrote:I wonder if wait staff is fairly used to that tactic?


yes

I've also heard/read that it makes the guy look "less manly" since the guy is "supposed" to be the one who calls.


Kind of old fashioned, but to some extent, yes. Like any other tactic, this is also hit and miss. Some women like it, some don't. The trick is to be able to judge what type of girl you're going for in a particular situation.

Maybe I should say something, like "Sorry I didn't recognize you before. Give me a call and I'll buy you a drink to make up for it." ?


Very good. Do this soon before she doesn't recognize you though :)

Wish I had some nice impressive business cards...


No.

As far as strengths and weaknesses, you should figure them out. Funny guys that can't dance should try to get ladies with comedy, not break dancing. Charming guys should try to get ladies with talking, not attempt to be chris rock. And so on... Nothing beats a charmer though, so... You have to look at it like you're selling yourself. Coca-cola doesn't advertise their drink by telling you it's bad for your teeth and stomach lining. Lipitor doesn't sell so well because they let the patient know they will be taking it for the rest of their lives or face serious health risks. You wont sell well if you advertise your "not-so-good" parts -- such as dancing (if you are still not good at it) or juggling or whatever it is you may or may not be doing that you're not good at in front of these ladies :) Concentrate on ways to advertise your strengths while hiding your weaknesses. And above all, learn how to talk.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Re: The Game

Postby Pril » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:33 pm

Kifle,

Are you saying that if we read Sarvis' posts we'll be stuck reading them for the rest of our lives? DAMMIT that wasn't on the bottle!!!!!

Mike
The best of WTF statments of '06

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Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'

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