TorilMUD Forums

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 5:42 am**

It's been well over a month since you've posted - and that was just for taking blame for not having align quest running. Calla has had it done for half a year or something. Since April 11, you've posted three different days. Are you still even interested in the mud?

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:09 am**

I'd just stop bothering Shev. It's already clear that there is little interest and investment of time and effort. Perhaps it is an issue of ownership that the mud has not been passed on, or an issue of not having anyone trustworthy to pass it on to. Either way, I think it's best to let it go.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:35 am**

Remember he's a new father.
With that comes an effective nuclear winter for ages, for many of us.

We all know he's a good guy & loves this game, let's give him the benefit of the doubt and let him get on with his new family irl etc., and pop into it & here when he can (hopefully a little moreso than the past year or so).

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:47 pm**

ssar wrote:Remember he's a new father.

How long ago was that? He's no longer a "new" father. I don't see how it really applies anymore.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:17 pm**

All Shev needs to do is pop in and say what's up. That's not very hard for either Shar or Shevarash to do. It takes 5 min. Bring the laptop to the toilet while taking a dump.

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:07 pm**

Dalar wrote:All Shev needs to do is pop in and say what's up. That's not very hard for either Shar or Shevarash to do. It takes 5 min. Bring the laptop to the toilet while taking a dump.

Hehe, I LOL'd

Posted: **Mon Jun 08, 2009 6:25 pm**

Shev is a busy man, no way he has time for these forums. This has been proven.

R.I.P TorilMUD

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:18 am**

Yup, he sure didn't have time to do anything when I let him and Shar know the forums were down and that a few other things were messed up. I mean, they were fixed like two hours later and all. Guess he doesn't care.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 2:15 am**

Marthammor wrote:Yup, he sure didn't have time to do anything when I let him and Shar know the forums were down and that a few other things were messed up. I mean, they were fixed like two hours later and all. Guess he doesn't care.

FYI Marthammor:

http://z15.invisionfree.com/Triterium_B ... topic=1146

While we appreciate that he fixed it within 2 hours of you telling me... why are you so special? I'm sure Lathander, Dugmaren, and a bunch of other people had told him it was down as well. My link shows it was down since at least Friday. It was up Sunday.

I think people are wondering when the promised alignment quest is being put in.

TBH I don't care if Shevarash has to deal with his IRL right now. A guy has to do what he's gotta do. He just need to promote Dugmaren to forger so SOMEONE can call the shots while no forgers are around for months on end. Tell him that for me please kthx.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 3:57 am**

The way it sounded when I mentioned it, was that no one had told them anything was wrong.
I waited till sunday to mention anything because I had thought someone else might have told them. Plus I kinda forgot I had Shar's number in my phone, heh.

For all intents and purposes, Dugmaren is the forger for areas. I don't know if he wants the job, but he sure is performing it pretty darn well I think.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:18 am**

Greater Areas = Lvl 60 = Forger?

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:50 am**

I said for all intents and purposes. He isn't officially the forger, thats something for him and Shev and Shar to decide when the time comes. Until then, I think he's doing a fine job as sphere head even if he doesn't have all the tools he needs sometimes.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 12:49 pm**

You guys need to contact Miax, very contritely, and ask him to either put up his version of the mud, or give it to someone else willing to run it. I was asking Shev years ago to give the mud up to someone who still cared, and he made it very clear that this would never happen. It might seem like we would be giving up a lot of improvements since that time.. but really, is the mud all that improved over 5 years ago? I'm sure the area writers would give permission to have their files brought over to the other mud. As for code improvements, they are all probably easily reproducable within weeks by someone willing to put in the time. Seriously.. do you guys really want to have this mud held hostage indefinitely? Someone needs to put up an old version and just start over.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 1:26 pm**

Marthammor wrote:I said for all intents and purposes. He isn't officially the forger, thats something for him and Shev and Shar to decide when the time comes. Until then, I think he's doing a fine job as sphere head even if he doesn't have all the tools he needs sometimes.

Marth,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but as it stands there is absolutely no god atm who has permissions to move code into the mud. I know Dugmaren isn't able to and not sure who else might be able to but stuff coding wise has been done on test for weeks now and has not been moved over. As much as I hate agreeing with Dalar he's right. Shar and Shev may be busy but they need to appoint someone who can still run the mud in their absence. It doesn't need to be a forger but they need to give Dug the ability to move code in, especially since a lot of the new code is for zones. A few months back Eilistraee used to be able to do it so the code would still get moved in but with his resignation no one is left.

Mike

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:17 pm**

Pril wrote:agreeing with Dalar he's right.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 4:47 pm**

You're right, currently there isn't anyone who can move code. I had thought Dug had the ability until I asked him to move code to fix a weapon proc. Shev has always been kind of protective about what code work makes it onto the main mud which is currently causing problems, but I'm sure he's got good reasons for what he does or does not do.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:11 pm**

Marthammor wrote:You're right, currently there isn't anyone who can move code. I had thought Dug had the ability until I asked him to move code to fix a weapon proc. Shev has always been kind of protective about what code work makes it onto the main mud which is currently causing problems, but I'm sure he's got good reasons for what he does or does not do.

Coders probably should be overprotective of their code. Otherwise you get a guy like me who makes so many changes to the system the original programmers have trouble working with it...

Of course, if it's a guy like me those changes are good and everyone is happy except for me because I'm the only one who can work with it now.

If it's a guy who just thinks he's as good as I am, no one is happy because the system ends up completely broken....

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:11 pm**

The future of Kim Il Sung's Korea is firmly guaranteed under the wise guidance of Kim Jong Il who adopted Kim Il Sung Constitution on holding him in high esteem as the eternal President of the DPRK, carried forward his idea and exploits 100 percent and carried on all state affairs including the Party, the state and the army the way he did. The 60-year long history of the country is more shining thanks to the 40-odd-year history of Kim Jong Il's leadership of Songun revolution.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:14 pm**

Sarvis wrote:
Marthammor wrote:You're right, currently there isn't anyone who can move code. I had thought Dug had the ability until I asked him to move code to fix a weapon proc. Shev has always been kind of protective about what code work makes it onto the main mud which is currently causing problems, but I'm sure he's got good reasons for what he does or does not do.

Coders probably should be overprotective of their code. Otherwise you get a guy like me who makes so many changes to the system the original programmers have trouble working with it...

Of course, if it's a guy like me those changes are good and everyone is happy except for me because I'm the only one who can work with it now.

If it's a guy who just thinks he's as good as I am, no one is happy because the system ends up completely broken....

If you're a good coder other coders would have no problem working with your code.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:17 pm**

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Marthammor wrote:You're right, currently there isn't anyone who can move code. I had thought Dug had the ability until I asked him to move code to fix a weapon proc. Shev has always been kind of protective about what code work makes it onto the main mud which is currently causing problems, but I'm sure he's got good reasons for what he does or does not do.

Coders probably should be overprotective of their code. Otherwise you get a guy like me who makes so many changes to the system the original programmers have trouble working with it...

Of course, if it's a guy like me those changes are good and everyone is happy except for me because I'm the only one who can work with it now.

If it's a guy who just thinks he's as good as I am, no one is happy because the system ends up completely broken....

If you're a good coder other coders would have no problem working with your code.

I don't think they would, however learning a new system is always time consuming... and at this point it is a new system to them.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 5:47 pm**

I could care less about being overprotective of the code base, and if I'm correct about this Dug can access code all he wants - he just doesn't have the authority to copy it over from Test to Main. Its letting finished pieces of work sit idle on testmud for months at a time that is unacceptable. Its been the bane of this place for ages and the final axe that has pushed away a lot of area writers and other contributors who get tired of waiting for the people with the authority to make something happen. Dug does an amazing job despite these limitations, I just wish others would approach trying to improve a fledgling pbase with the same enthusiasm. I can be understanding about RL and the things that get in the way of stuff getting done. What I can't understand is the lack of communication.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:02 pm**

So who's taking bets on the MUD tanking soon? Eilistraee is gone, Dugmaren is next. Dugmaren said he'd never give me up so I guess we're ok for now.

Posted: **Tue Jun 09, 2009 7:59 pm**

Dalar wrote:So who's taking bets on the MUD tanking soon? Eilistraee is gone, Dugmaren is next. Dugmaren said he'd never give me up so I guess we're ok for now.

Thats kind of like asking who wants to take bets that the Titanic will be sinking soon.

Posted: **Sun Jun 14, 2009 4:33 am**

You're not going to be able to convince someone still holding on to something they invest no time in by trying to shame them, or browbeat them into giving it up.

The motivation isn't there, and by now, they probably hate you guys enough (especially the whiners) to pay for this place to stand still here forever.

So really, do leave Shev & Shar alone. They are already doing the same for us. And honestly, seeing as how you guys have acted, I wouldn't want to put up a server if I had the code for it for all anyway. Well, that's not entirely true, I might. But some of you all wouldn't be able to log on :P

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:01 pm**

We've been ungrateful for years. We are players after all. Would be very nice of Shevarash to say he's just giving up on Toril 2.0 (already seems like he has) so people can just move on and stop maknig the joke.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:14 pm**

While I agree, honestly, people can just move on all on their own. If they don't, I'm sure they'll just find something else to make fun of.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2009 7:46 pm**

It really boils down to a few fundamental points that I believe lead to the high level of frustration.

1 - It is essentially an open source game...many people have dedicated thousands upon thousands of hours to the development of the environment (players and coders/admins alike). Just because one party gets to say they 'own' it doesn't change the equation in reality.

2 - False promises. Three years ago 2.0 was coming in months. There has been a recurring and consistent pattern of deception veiled in the constraints of 'real life.' I have some empathy because I suspect the forgers -want- to provide the things they talk about, but we all know the fable about the boy that cried wolf.

3 - Lack of communication. People have pointed out numerous times the now legendary, 'gone for months, pop in for a week, gone for months' pattern that has emerged.

The only reason I point these things out is because I think it is perfectly reasonable for the base to feel frustrated and angry. The game never -had- to die.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2009 9:18 pm**

Good post Avak.

Posted: **Mon Jun 15, 2009 10:51 pm**

Is there anything else I could do that would help?

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:22 am**

Dugmaren wrote:Is there anything else I could do that would help?

I could use canadian citizenship. They allow gay marriage up there, right?

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 9:13 am**

Dugmaren wrote:Is there anything else I could do that would help?

More of those unlimited beer taps in VT every now and then.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:51 pm**

Dugmaren wrote:Is there anything else I could do that would help?

I think setbitting lilithelle to human would go a long way Dug.

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:50 pm**

i strongly agree.. more pranks!
you could randomly setbit some enchanter to ogre/myconid during zone!

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:07 pm**

randomly load a dracolich in VT occasionally that would be great fun

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 4:41 pm**

load several rimis in vt with full inventory so they cant be quested :P

Posted: **Tue Jun 16, 2009 5:33 pm**

Oh.. so shenaniganry? I can do that :)

Posted: **Wed Jun 17, 2009 5:26 am**

Hey Dug, I think if you allowed Myconid in, like the invisible Cyric (has this guy even existed since '05?) promised basically..that'd be a hint of fun to have new races!

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:07 am**

avak wrote:1 - It is essentially an open source game...many people have dedicated thousands upon thousands of hours to the development of the environment (players and coders/admins alike). Just because one party gets to say they 'own' it doesn't change the equation in reality.

Shev has already acknowledged that the contributions made by others to the game are theirs and has for the most part respected their ownership by not changing their zones, etc. Honestly, people can still take it somewhere else, or request that it be removed from the mud, so I think the issue of ownership of contributions is a moot one, still maintained despite the mud itself not going anywhere.

avak wrote:2 - False promises. Three years ago 2.0 was coming in months. There has been a recurring and consistent pattern of deception veiled in the constraints of 'real life.' I have some empathy because I suspect the forgers -want- to provide the things they talk about, but we all know the fable about the boy that cried wolf.

Without reliance or payment, there is no real contract here. A statement of intention doesn't amount to a promise of performance. It may be one person's word, but honestly, who gets held to that anymore?

avak wrote:3 - Lack of communication. People have pointed out numerous times the now legendary, 'gone for months, pop in for a week, gone for months' pattern that has emerged.

That's probably because they hate you guys for ruining their game.

I respond to these because I think they're good points.

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:14 am**

We'll finally run out of apologists when the pbase falls to zero.

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 5:17 am**

Corth wrote:We'll finally run out of apologists when the pbase falls to zero.

I'm no apologist. I'm more of a grief counselor trying to help people move on.

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:27 pm**

I'm pretty cynical about this whole situation. I fully expect that in the next few months or years, it gets revealed why Shev hasn't been involved. It will be something really big - health issues, problems at work, etc. Something where its truly understandable why he wasn't around - and everyone will comfort him and give him their best wishes etc.

Meanwhile, I'm going to be wondering why he isn't called out for refusing to simply turn over the mud to someone more capable of running things. The answer, as he has made clear numerous times, is that he is the owner and he will never turn it over to anyone else. That galls me to no end. You have literally dozens (used to be hundreds) of people who give a good portion of their lives towards making this game what it is. Even people, like myself, who don't play anymore, are still interested in seeing the mud flourish. Its the height of selfishness for someone to claim 'ownership' and control over something that so many people have contributed to, and then wantonly neglect it when there are many people capable of at least taking control, if not ownership.

Let me tell you what else is going to happen. After Shev comes back and announces why he hasn't been around, and everyone is very sympathetic to him, I will go back to this thread and quote this post. Within 10 minutes both the original post and the quoted one will be deleted. And it will be the same old shit once more.

Cynical enough?

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 8:54 pm**

I think it was already made pretty clear by Shev that it is his mud for better or worse. I can only suggest that you spend your time and your efforts elsewhere. I try to contribute to the community that identifies with this game, but I do so with the understanding that it's chained to someone who can and will neglect the game.

Vote with your feet on this one, folks.

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:02 pm**

Seeing as I still actually play, I wanted to chime in and say one thing in specific, regardless of how I truly feel about the bigger picture. I play each day and enjoy playing the game. Dugmaren and some of the newer Areas/Admins are doing an awesome job of trying to help and improve the place. If we can back them up (and Dugmaren gets some actual access power), the mud can improve. Ignore the rest.

Posted: **Fri Jun 19, 2009 10:06 pm**

It's appreciated, Areas and Administration positions are always open to new recruits. Currently there are around 9-10 people who are actually working on areas projects but as any of them will tell you it's a long road and it can be discouraging. Regardless the amount of support that does actually come from the pBase is very encouraging.

Thanks everyone,
Dug

Posted: **Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:12 pm**

Is shev even fuggin alive? It takes what, a couple min to say 'hey peeps, this is why I'm not around, quests are breaking, and duggy's working so hard..(and the other hero guys [n gals?]) keepin the place going

At least Miax did the right thing. I don't know, nor understand what shev's doing at all..we can all see what seems to not be going on tho

Posted: **Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:01 pm**

Yep, Shev is still alive.

The staff has been working very hard keeping things going, and I appreciate it! While it's sad all around that a thread like this has to exist, it's good to see that people are still so passionate about this place.

Posted: **Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:04 pm**

So we don't get to know what happened?

Posted: **Mon Jul 06, 2009 7:25 pm**

Shevarash wrote:it's good to see that people are still so passionate about this place.

Are you perhaps interested in handing the mud over to someone else at this point?

Posted: **Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:28 pm**

No, not interested in that right now.

Posted: **Mon Jul 06, 2009 10:41 pm**

So Shev are we going to get nothing more after all the forgers being completely gone for the bast few months?

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