My daughter has finally decided to go back to school (thank you God for minor miracles!). She's expressed an interest in the technology field, but isn't sure what route to take. You guys have any advice on what areas within IT still have the greatest potential, or if there are specific certifications she should consider working towards? It seems like there's still a high demand for people with knowledge in the network security area, but other than that, I'm clueless.
Thanks!
IT Careers?
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IT Careers?
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Disoputlip
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Re: IT Careers?
My advice is to learn how to program.
Even though people with business knowledge is needed, then it is easier to gain that knowledge after you have learned to program than the other way around. Also, if you don't like to program, then it is the wrong business.
An interesting field where there are jobs, is testing of software. This field is often frowned upon, but gets more and more in focus. Personally I think it is a good way to start an IT career.
A good platform for getting such a job would be a 2 years education in some kind of business/it education, sadly I have absolutly no idea if there are any such in the states. In 2 years I also think this crisis is well over.
Else, the longer education the better, but she needs to complete it, and get the diploma.
Even though people with business knowledge is needed, then it is easier to gain that knowledge after you have learned to program than the other way around. Also, if you don't like to program, then it is the wrong business.
An interesting field where there are jobs, is testing of software. This field is often frowned upon, but gets more and more in focus. Personally I think it is a good way to start an IT career.
A good platform for getting such a job would be a 2 years education in some kind of business/it education, sadly I have absolutly no idea if there are any such in the states. In 2 years I also think this crisis is well over.
Else, the longer education the better, but she needs to complete it, and get the diploma.
Re: IT Careers?
Networks security/network administration. Programming has taken a huge hit in the US and moved to India over the past 4-5 years. Database management is also pretty decent. There's a thread around here somewhere with tons of this stuff in it, but I'm too lazy to find it.
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Re: IT Careers?
Diso: I'd have to disagree about 'programming', since most of that is being sent to short-term contractors or overseas, unless you're really good. The business/IT mixed program you're referring to is often called Computer Information Systems (CIS) or something like that, and is run out of the business college, at least where I went.
Ashiwi: Security is the real growth factor these days. It consumes a significant portion of everyone's time in IT, at least where I work, and has the best promotion potential and wages, with positions all the way up to the CXO level. The only problem with IT security is that you end up hating yourself and your job. Networking is also big stuff right now and likely into the future.
Certifications are useful for marketing but aren't necessary with proper experience. Security certs would generally be Security+ and CISSP, though the latter is difficult/costly. For networking, anything with the word 'Cisco' in it.
Note there is a gender bias in IT against females and that the job often requires overtime or on-call work. Does she actually enjoy IT or is she looking at it as a way to make money/get a job in today's economy?
Ashiwi: Security is the real growth factor these days. It consumes a significant portion of everyone's time in IT, at least where I work, and has the best promotion potential and wages, with positions all the way up to the CXO level. The only problem with IT security is that you end up hating yourself and your job. Networking is also big stuff right now and likely into the future.
Certifications are useful for marketing but aren't necessary with proper experience. Security certs would generally be Security+ and CISSP, though the latter is difficult/costly. For networking, anything with the word 'Cisco' in it.
Note there is a gender bias in IT against females and that the job often requires overtime or on-call work. Does she actually enjoy IT or is she looking at it as a way to make money/get a job in today's economy?
Re: IT Careers?
Here's at least one previous IT thread: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=19998
Re: IT Careers?
Technology as whole is very big industry and ton of careers available making jobs available in IT very, very broad. Instead of asking which area of IT still have greatest potential since growth in particular part always changes. I think it's probably best to give you general advice on life that your daughter will need to expect once she graduates and begins work in IT world because there are something that will not change regardless of how the market evolves that every IT professional can agree on.
Before I spit out recommendations and advices, I'm going to describe my background so you'll have better understanding where I'm coming from and what my experiences are. I worked in IT field for 5 years now. I currently work as Project Manager in Financial Software Development. Previously I worked as Project Manager for IT security, worked as Change Manager/Implementation Manager for small private (50-100) to Forbes Global list mid-large (7,000-9,000) corporation. Largest IT shop I worked in had 400-450 people and smallest shop I worked at had 40 people.
Negative Facts about IT
1. Most IT jobs require the individual to be available to work at all times regardless of what day, time, or location. In fact, very few IT jobs doesn't need that individual to be called into action at anytime.
2. IT jobs get hit the hard during economic downturns. When business shrinks, IT shrinks even faster because most companies sees IT as expense and not as profit, business, or economic opportunity (usually only companies that don't see IT as expense are Tech companies). Then again being Tech company in bad economy is a whole new ballpark since no one spends money on IT during times like this so you are in tough spot regardless if you work in Tech company.
3. IT jobs requires the individual to stay on top of fast changing technology in their respective IT field. All jobs require the individual to stay on top of their field and know what's going on, but IT in particular changes very quick compared to most other industries and you need to stay on top of it. So you'll need to learn new skillset quickly and able to absorb it, or face extinction.
4. Hate to say it but age, sex, and even race play a factor here.
Age: Older you are, you're considered to be old fossil who can't do much in tech world unless you prove otherwise.
Sex: IT is male dominated world, if you are female...well prepare to meet & work with army of male geeks and since IT is time demanding on you, if you are mother then it's even extra tough.
Race: People might point their finger at me and tell me I'm racist but...in my opinion this is a factor. For example, if you are Indian be prepared to really prove yourself. There have been a flood of Indian IT workers that came to USA and frankly speaking immigrant Indian IT workers' skillset is below average due to education and culture difference. And because there are so many, the real good ones are hard to come by so you'll need to prove yourself to stand out. Good thing is, well large portion of IT force is Indian. You won't have problem forming ethnic and cultural bond thing. If you are Cauasian or Asian, well you better perform above average because it's expected of you. Either smart Asian thing or American educated Cauasian thing. If you are African Americans, well you'd be in the minority in IT world so expectation is neutral or non-existant. However in my short career so far, all African Americans I met in IT field are exceptional and at the same time from middle-class or middle-upper class background. Never met black IT worker who is from the ghettos.
Positive Facts about IT
1. If you have the skills, you will earn money and your pay scale can go up high quick. IT is one of the careers where you can hit high five figure or even six figure fastest out of most careers without very extensive education or prestigeous school.
2. Flexible work hours. This really depends on the company you work at and I have to say I've yet to come across any company that doesn't give their IT employees comp days or flex hour since IT jobs is so demanding of your time (remember #1 from negative facts).
3. Less uptight work environment. This also depends on the company but most of time, its one step less formal than the business side. For example if business side of your company operate in suit and tie, well you probably be required dress shirt and dress pants. If business operate in dress shirt or polo shirt...well you'll be wearing shirts and shorts.
4. Work with cool people. Well, if you work in IT and if you are not a techie you won't last long. So it's pretty ensuring that you meet a people similar to your breed. Logic driven (mainly), likes or love technology and electronic toys, geeky in one way, etc.
5. Solitary yet team work driven. While you work as a team to put in a team effort to deliver your services, most of your work is done in solitary. This could be negative fact but almost all people I met in IT world like to work in solitary manner with team effort so this is positive for most.
Before I spit out recommendations and advices, I'm going to describe my background so you'll have better understanding where I'm coming from and what my experiences are. I worked in IT field for 5 years now. I currently work as Project Manager in Financial Software Development. Previously I worked as Project Manager for IT security, worked as Change Manager/Implementation Manager for small private (50-100) to Forbes Global list mid-large (7,000-9,000) corporation. Largest IT shop I worked in had 400-450 people and smallest shop I worked at had 40 people.
Negative Facts about IT
1. Most IT jobs require the individual to be available to work at all times regardless of what day, time, or location. In fact, very few IT jobs doesn't need that individual to be called into action at anytime.
2. IT jobs get hit the hard during economic downturns. When business shrinks, IT shrinks even faster because most companies sees IT as expense and not as profit, business, or economic opportunity (usually only companies that don't see IT as expense are Tech companies). Then again being Tech company in bad economy is a whole new ballpark since no one spends money on IT during times like this so you are in tough spot regardless if you work in Tech company.
3. IT jobs requires the individual to stay on top of fast changing technology in their respective IT field. All jobs require the individual to stay on top of their field and know what's going on, but IT in particular changes very quick compared to most other industries and you need to stay on top of it. So you'll need to learn new skillset quickly and able to absorb it, or face extinction.
4. Hate to say it but age, sex, and even race play a factor here.
Age: Older you are, you're considered to be old fossil who can't do much in tech world unless you prove otherwise.
Sex: IT is male dominated world, if you are female...well prepare to meet & work with army of male geeks and since IT is time demanding on you, if you are mother then it's even extra tough.
Race: People might point their finger at me and tell me I'm racist but...in my opinion this is a factor. For example, if you are Indian be prepared to really prove yourself. There have been a flood of Indian IT workers that came to USA and frankly speaking immigrant Indian IT workers' skillset is below average due to education and culture difference. And because there are so many, the real good ones are hard to come by so you'll need to prove yourself to stand out. Good thing is, well large portion of IT force is Indian. You won't have problem forming ethnic and cultural bond thing. If you are Cauasian or Asian, well you better perform above average because it's expected of you. Either smart Asian thing or American educated Cauasian thing. If you are African Americans, well you'd be in the minority in IT world so expectation is neutral or non-existant. However in my short career so far, all African Americans I met in IT field are exceptional and at the same time from middle-class or middle-upper class background. Never met black IT worker who is from the ghettos.
Positive Facts about IT
1. If you have the skills, you will earn money and your pay scale can go up high quick. IT is one of the careers where you can hit high five figure or even six figure fastest out of most careers without very extensive education or prestigeous school.
2. Flexible work hours. This really depends on the company you work at and I have to say I've yet to come across any company that doesn't give their IT employees comp days or flex hour since IT jobs is so demanding of your time (remember #1 from negative facts).
3. Less uptight work environment. This also depends on the company but most of time, its one step less formal than the business side. For example if business side of your company operate in suit and tie, well you probably be required dress shirt and dress pants. If business operate in dress shirt or polo shirt...well you'll be wearing shirts and shorts.
4. Work with cool people. Well, if you work in IT and if you are not a techie you won't last long. So it's pretty ensuring that you meet a people similar to your breed. Logic driven (mainly), likes or love technology and electronic toys, geeky in one way, etc.
5. Solitary yet team work driven. While you work as a team to put in a team effort to deliver your services, most of your work is done in solitary. This could be negative fact but almost all people I met in IT world like to work in solitary manner with team effort so this is positive for most.
Re: IT Careers?
Ashiwi wrote:My daughter has finally decided to go back to school (thank you God for minor miracles!). She's expressed an interest in the technology field, but isn't sure what route to take. You guys have any advice on what areas within IT still have the greatest potential, or if there are specific certifications she should consider working towards? It seems like there's still a high demand for people with knowledge in the network security area, but other than that, I'm clueless.
Thanks!
What does she actually _like_ to do. I don't see too many successful IT professionals who are doing something they don't enjoy. Does she like building computers, or installing/configuring software? Does she like writing scripts or trying to automate things using computers?
That will be more important than which field has the best potential. Especially since almost every IT position is a good candidate for outsourcing.
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Re: IT Careers?
IT fields
1. IT Security, this is growth sector of IT and will continue to do so. As technology improves, IT security struggles to keep up and generally IT Security does not outsource for critical positions for number of reasons. For example, you can be pretty dang sure US Gov't is not going to outsource critical IT security position to some workers in foreign country. Or a large global corporation that handles sensitive data won't outsource IT security to third party provider, it'll be done in-house. However despite the growth, IT security is an area that does not get large chunk of IT budget for so number of available positions are limited. Compliance portion of IT lot of times fall in IT security and previously, this was compliance was pretty hot stuff due to pretty strict interpertation with Sarbanes-Oxsley. Right now though it's not as hot.
2. Development. This is pretty pretty much what lot of people think of when they hear programmers. People who code and bang out a widget to do whatever. Developers, Testers, Build Managers, etc. This job is probably 2nd highest in type of IT jobs that get outsourced, especially Testers. Despite that, there are number of difficult challenges that companies need to deal with for fully outsourcing their Dev shop so lot of places take mixed approach of using some offshore. Development is probably the 2nd highest group of IT folks that get the phone call at night.
3. IT Support, this is you know those call-centers that you get when you call help line. As most people are acutely aware by now, well this job is the highest in IT industry to be outsourced to India and now South America. Out of all IT, this is the lowest pay scale and takes the most sh*t. Whether IT support is taking calls from users, customers or providing hardware support...you are the first line for hearing bitching customers, most hated, looked down upon, and sometimes talk mind-numingly stupid people.. Remember those AOL Tech support? Anyway, this is the easiest IT job to get into and most stable in your hours. You may need to fill or cover another coworker but if there's an IT problem at the company while it's not your shift. Well, they are not going to call you so don't worry.
4. Network/Infrastructure. This is the flesh, blood, and bones of any company. Pretty much any company IT infrastructure and network falls under this category and typical jobs are Network engineers, sys admins, is-ops, exchange admins, DBAs, etc. Out of all IT areas, this is the grand daddy of #1 in working at random hours and asking you to come in.
5. Professional Service/IT Consultants. This is pretty broad but think of people that third party companies send to someone to deliver some IT solution whether its a product or service. A good chunk of IT consultants are individuals who implement third party company softwares. Regardless of what it specific product or service you are consulting for, you will be traveling. This is one IT job where you can sock away a good chunk of your pay. If you are traveling, it's paid by the client or your company (travel, meal, etc.) and plus you expense a lot of things. However, if you take a look at big picture. This is a toughest out of all IT field in terms of trying to raise a family or anything that you'll need to stay at one location for while. Despite that, I believe this is a pretty cool job for someone out of college. Oh and you will get sh*t on by your clients so it is high stress environment more so than others.
1. IT Security, this is growth sector of IT and will continue to do so. As technology improves, IT security struggles to keep up and generally IT Security does not outsource for critical positions for number of reasons. For example, you can be pretty dang sure US Gov't is not going to outsource critical IT security position to some workers in foreign country. Or a large global corporation that handles sensitive data won't outsource IT security to third party provider, it'll be done in-house. However despite the growth, IT security is an area that does not get large chunk of IT budget for so number of available positions are limited. Compliance portion of IT lot of times fall in IT security and previously, this was compliance was pretty hot stuff due to pretty strict interpertation with Sarbanes-Oxsley. Right now though it's not as hot.
2. Development. This is pretty pretty much what lot of people think of when they hear programmers. People who code and bang out a widget to do whatever. Developers, Testers, Build Managers, etc. This job is probably 2nd highest in type of IT jobs that get outsourced, especially Testers. Despite that, there are number of difficult challenges that companies need to deal with for fully outsourcing their Dev shop so lot of places take mixed approach of using some offshore. Development is probably the 2nd highest group of IT folks that get the phone call at night.
3. IT Support, this is you know those call-centers that you get when you call help line. As most people are acutely aware by now, well this job is the highest in IT industry to be outsourced to India and now South America. Out of all IT, this is the lowest pay scale and takes the most sh*t. Whether IT support is taking calls from users, customers or providing hardware support...you are the first line for hearing bitching customers, most hated, looked down upon, and sometimes talk mind-numingly stupid people.. Remember those AOL Tech support? Anyway, this is the easiest IT job to get into and most stable in your hours. You may need to fill or cover another coworker but if there's an IT problem at the company while it's not your shift. Well, they are not going to call you so don't worry.
4. Network/Infrastructure. This is the flesh, blood, and bones of any company. Pretty much any company IT infrastructure and network falls under this category and typical jobs are Network engineers, sys admins, is-ops, exchange admins, DBAs, etc. Out of all IT areas, this is the grand daddy of #1 in working at random hours and asking you to come in.
5. Professional Service/IT Consultants. This is pretty broad but think of people that third party companies send to someone to deliver some IT solution whether its a product or service. A good chunk of IT consultants are individuals who implement third party company softwares. Regardless of what it specific product or service you are consulting for, you will be traveling. This is one IT job where you can sock away a good chunk of your pay. If you are traveling, it's paid by the client or your company (travel, meal, etc.) and plus you expense a lot of things. However, if you take a look at big picture. This is a toughest out of all IT field in terms of trying to raise a family or anything that you'll need to stay at one location for while. Despite that, I believe this is a pretty cool job for someone out of college. Oh and you will get sh*t on by your clients so it is high stress environment more so than others.
Re: IT Careers?
Your daughter
If she is serious about IT career, talk to her about these so she has real world expectation. Sarvis is asking the right question too about what aptitude your daughter may have for an area of IT. It's pretty simple for a person to figure out for themselves whether they want to code or not and she can go from there. If she really enjoys coding, well Development is calling her. If she hates coding but likes working on big expensive hardwares, well then Infrastructure type job. If she's not sure but enjoys some coding and likes traveling. Short stint in Professional Services isn't bad. I wouldn't recommend it for long stint though, it's not easy to switch out of Professional Services to different IT job and regardless of what company you switch to, if you are in Professional Services career, you will travel.
Anyhow, I think your daughter learning some programming and doing some coding would be first big filter on choice of IT. Like Organic chem being filter class for anyone thinking Medicine related.
Biggest thing to remember about IT is your skill and your brain more than anything.
If she is serious about IT career, talk to her about these so she has real world expectation. Sarvis is asking the right question too about what aptitude your daughter may have for an area of IT. It's pretty simple for a person to figure out for themselves whether they want to code or not and she can go from there. If she really enjoys coding, well Development is calling her. If she hates coding but likes working on big expensive hardwares, well then Infrastructure type job. If she's not sure but enjoys some coding and likes traveling. Short stint in Professional Services isn't bad. I wouldn't recommend it for long stint though, it's not easy to switch out of Professional Services to different IT job and regardless of what company you switch to, if you are in Professional Services career, you will travel.
Anyhow, I think your daughter learning some programming and doing some coding would be first big filter on choice of IT. Like Organic chem being filter class for anyone thinking Medicine related.
Biggest thing to remember about IT is your skill and your brain more than anything.
Re: IT Careers?
anything good for multimedia? i mean more on graphical/animated thingy?
Re: IT Careers?
Elet wrote:anything good for multimedia? i mean more on graphical/animated thingy?
In a traditional IT world (non-Tech companies' IT shops). Most of work is in Development and typical work is to help bang out a Website or work on User-Interface but even then this is really small of IT world and positions are pretty limited in traditional IT world. UI Designer, Graphic Artist, Graphic Designer, etc.
Now if you talk about Tech companies especially ones in Entertainment world (Movie or Gaming), this is your world. For example you could be 3D Character Artist, 2D Artist, Cinematics Technician, etc. I do have to warn you though, life in Entertainment Tech World is pretty brutal. These guys have serious deadlines and life as 'Game Developer' or 'Animation Movie Developer' is tough. But then, one of the guy I know who work in gaming world loves the fact that games he help make is played by so many rather than some widget he banged out at corporation. Told me work is harder, pay isn't that much better, but it brings self-satisfaction.
One thing to keep in mind is that there are not that many large companies that's in this area and not as globally spread. In USA, typical jobs for Entertainment (Gaming, movies, animation, etc.) are in California or New York because that's where these companies are most located (Activison Blizzard, Atari, LucasArts, DreamWorks, Take Two Interactive Software, etc.). On the otherhand, if you try to get into traditionall IT world, there are more available more globally.
Job security is probably not as safe as other IT jobs? I can't really say but I do know Gaming companies' exposure to collapsing is more riskier so don't expect a long career at one company. It takes a lot of money to bring a game to market and few makes a superstar hit, some break even, lot go bankrupt. Even big name companies in the past such as Microprose, Interplay, all went the way of either bankruptcy or another company taking control of it and absorbing it. There aren't too many big giants in these world.
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kiryan
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Re: IT Careers?
I hold major certifications in databases, networks, security and servers. I'm also a capable programmer. I'm currently a Director of Information Systems at a 400 employee organization, but I have done every job to some degree.
Databases, networks and security would be my advice. Databases has always been my favorite. I love managing data, building reports, architecting applications. This is a position for someone who is operational and enjoys creativity. Problem is you almost have to start as a programmer using something like Access (somewhere you don't want to get stuck), then you develop into a report writer, an application data model designer and finally into what most would call a database administrator.
Network is pretty easy, generally good pay... Its split into 2-3 major sections, voice, wireless and general network so plenty of entertainment as you develop. I'd look to join a telecomm/cable if I was starting out in networks. Thats where the jobs and the bucks are and any normal company will look at a network engineer with "telecomm" experience as like graduating from harvard. This is a position for someone who is very tenacious at troubleshooting fleeting problems and is very detail oriented and operationally minded.
The difficulty with security is that you have to be pretty savvy about companies as well as technology. Its just not a field I would recommend for beginners. You have to understand how companies and people work, whether they want "security" or whether they really want their computer information secure. The best illustration of this point is HIPAA, health insurance portability and acountability act... a gargantuan book of stuff that some people use to justify "security measures" that prevent you and everyone at your company from working and others look at as another set of compliances to do the minimum for so you can pass audit. Without business and political perspective... its just not really something I can recommend for an inexperienced person. You'll either do the company a disservice or yourself. This is a position for someone who likes politics, loves the gamut of technology and is able to managing risk. Managing risk does not mean close off every option so there is 0 risk, it means balancing a .001% risk with the 120 million in potential damage vs the $450,000 "solution".
Server people will go the way of pc techs... Once upon a time pc techs made 50k, 10 years later they make 40k... Its a good entry point, but you better have a longer path planned. Not a bad place to start if you want to go into security because server people generally control the user accounts, but you need to move from this to networks very quickly. The exception would be Unix server guys and virtualization guys (which are basically unix guys).
programming... what todrael said. Too easy to export programming jobs overseas. Code can be emailed across the globe in 2.2 seconds and Russia, China and India have tons of moderately skilled labor in these areas. Every few years some new retarded language becomes the rage. Besides you have to work with what amounts to a bunch of spoiled children.
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If she wants to go into technology, she doesn't need school; she needs certifications and experience. Most certification tests are $150 a test, and you have 3-4 to achieve the certification. Classes typically run $500 a day for a week at a time (thats ALOT cheaper than college). If she is a book learner, there are tons of books and simulators available for network certifications in particular.
If she wants to do school, then I would suggest she get a masters degree in health information systems/management or computer/management information systems. Probably after she gets a job with a company that pays for school. If she just has to go straight to college, her path would be poor for 10-15 years as she builds the experience necessary to get a job in management at a larger organization. A degree in computer science is virtually worthless unless you are going into management or for certain employers (like government).
Another option where a degree will be useful is as a "business systems analyst" or systems analyst. These people generally are the lead IT people on implementing new software. They typically work with the business "power users" and the vendors to implement new systems. Good analytical skills and long hours are typically required. Recognition that "right" for the business is not always what is "right" technically or philosophically is paramount. This is one of the few areas of technology where you become more valuable over time vs less because of the business knowledge. Technical skills become more common and worth less as time passes with very rare exception.
Healthcare is a good industry to be in. If she is mathematically inclined, a combination of accounting background + technology is a good area. Telecomm is good for networking. I hated government, but if you want stability and access to the newest technology its a good option. Military/national guard... training, paying for college, plus your years of military service are added onto your seniority in government positions.
Above all, especially as she is starting out, she must move to a place where tech jobs are plentiful and she must keep moving. Start at a small company that only has a couple of IT people (so that you get to do more different stuff) If she is not growing every year or 2, she needs to go to a different company (be careful this gambit really hurts retirement).
Final notes...
Two recent articles one on cio.com and one on something like CNN made the case that while underrepresented in technology, women make "closer" to equal what a man does. of course, i think thats all has nothing to do with gender bias, but its worth noting.
She should note that typically technology people are more direct and far less polite... some have even labeled engineers in general as being "high functioning autisitcs"... She should have a thick skin because a lot of guys in this field do believe they are better than chicks and will prove it, over and over and over. plus hit on her.
never ever ever lie about anything with technology ... or even try to get away with something. If you make a mistake own up to it... there is a digital record of nearly everything that happens and someone can and probably will prove it if you try to pull a fast one. This is not a good industry for deceptive people.
Databases, networks and security would be my advice. Databases has always been my favorite. I love managing data, building reports, architecting applications. This is a position for someone who is operational and enjoys creativity. Problem is you almost have to start as a programmer using something like Access (somewhere you don't want to get stuck), then you develop into a report writer, an application data model designer and finally into what most would call a database administrator.
Network is pretty easy, generally good pay... Its split into 2-3 major sections, voice, wireless and general network so plenty of entertainment as you develop. I'd look to join a telecomm/cable if I was starting out in networks. Thats where the jobs and the bucks are and any normal company will look at a network engineer with "telecomm" experience as like graduating from harvard. This is a position for someone who is very tenacious at troubleshooting fleeting problems and is very detail oriented and operationally minded.
The difficulty with security is that you have to be pretty savvy about companies as well as technology. Its just not a field I would recommend for beginners. You have to understand how companies and people work, whether they want "security" or whether they really want their computer information secure. The best illustration of this point is HIPAA, health insurance portability and acountability act... a gargantuan book of stuff that some people use to justify "security measures" that prevent you and everyone at your company from working and others look at as another set of compliances to do the minimum for so you can pass audit. Without business and political perspective... its just not really something I can recommend for an inexperienced person. You'll either do the company a disservice or yourself. This is a position for someone who likes politics, loves the gamut of technology and is able to managing risk. Managing risk does not mean close off every option so there is 0 risk, it means balancing a .001% risk with the 120 million in potential damage vs the $450,000 "solution".
Server people will go the way of pc techs... Once upon a time pc techs made 50k, 10 years later they make 40k... Its a good entry point, but you better have a longer path planned. Not a bad place to start if you want to go into security because server people generally control the user accounts, but you need to move from this to networks very quickly. The exception would be Unix server guys and virtualization guys (which are basically unix guys).
programming... what todrael said. Too easy to export programming jobs overseas. Code can be emailed across the globe in 2.2 seconds and Russia, China and India have tons of moderately skilled labor in these areas. Every few years some new retarded language becomes the rage. Besides you have to work with what amounts to a bunch of spoiled children.
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If she wants to go into technology, she doesn't need school; she needs certifications and experience. Most certification tests are $150 a test, and you have 3-4 to achieve the certification. Classes typically run $500 a day for a week at a time (thats ALOT cheaper than college). If she is a book learner, there are tons of books and simulators available for network certifications in particular.
If she wants to do school, then I would suggest she get a masters degree in health information systems/management or computer/management information systems. Probably after she gets a job with a company that pays for school. If she just has to go straight to college, her path would be poor for 10-15 years as she builds the experience necessary to get a job in management at a larger organization. A degree in computer science is virtually worthless unless you are going into management or for certain employers (like government).
Another option where a degree will be useful is as a "business systems analyst" or systems analyst. These people generally are the lead IT people on implementing new software. They typically work with the business "power users" and the vendors to implement new systems. Good analytical skills and long hours are typically required. Recognition that "right" for the business is not always what is "right" technically or philosophically is paramount. This is one of the few areas of technology where you become more valuable over time vs less because of the business knowledge. Technical skills become more common and worth less as time passes with very rare exception.
Healthcare is a good industry to be in. If she is mathematically inclined, a combination of accounting background + technology is a good area. Telecomm is good for networking. I hated government, but if you want stability and access to the newest technology its a good option. Military/national guard... training, paying for college, plus your years of military service are added onto your seniority in government positions.
Above all, especially as she is starting out, she must move to a place where tech jobs are plentiful and she must keep moving. Start at a small company that only has a couple of IT people (so that you get to do more different stuff) If she is not growing every year or 2, she needs to go to a different company (be careful this gambit really hurts retirement).
Final notes...
Two recent articles one on cio.com and one on something like CNN made the case that while underrepresented in technology, women make "closer" to equal what a man does. of course, i think thats all has nothing to do with gender bias, but its worth noting.
She should note that typically technology people are more direct and far less polite... some have even labeled engineers in general as being "high functioning autisitcs"... She should have a thick skin because a lot of guys in this field do believe they are better than chicks and will prove it, over and over and over. plus hit on her.
never ever ever lie about anything with technology ... or even try to get away with something. If you make a mistake own up to it... there is a digital record of nearly everything that happens and someone can and probably will prove it if you try to pull a fast one. This is not a good industry for deceptive people.
Re: IT Careers?
kiryan wrote:If she wants to go into technology, she doesn't need school; she needs certifications and experience. Most certification tests are $150 a test, and you have 3-4 to achieve the certification. Classes typically run $500 a day for a week at a time (thats ALOT cheaper than college). If she is a book learner, there are tons of books and simulators available for network certifications in particular.
I'm not so sure about this one (in specifics to Ashiwi's daugther's case). I think this advice is great for someone who has their mind made up about getting into Technology as a career. It sounds like to me that Ashiwi's daughter is on the fence and expressing an interest in our field. In such case I think it's better for her to go to school so if she figures along the way that she Technology is not it for her. She can change her course somewhere along the line. Even if she graduates with Tech degree, she could fall back on her education and school name to try a different career.
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Disoputlip
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Re: IT Careers?
I do find it a little unfair the way you don't see programming as a critical skill in the it industry.
I will not say you need programming skills to become a programmer. But whatever you wish to become, having understanding of programming, and also beeing a programmer is a cornerstone in the it business.
I hear what you say about programming jobs that goes to India, but even if you have to explain someone in India how to make a program, then programming comes a long way.
And yes, I am fairly technical, thus I have a preference for technical people. Right now I act as a tech lead so I don't get to program much though.
I will not say you need programming skills to become a programmer. But whatever you wish to become, having understanding of programming, and also beeing a programmer is a cornerstone in the it business.
I hear what you say about programming jobs that goes to India, but even if you have to explain someone in India how to make a program, then programming comes a long way.
And yes, I am fairly technical, thus I have a preference for technical people. Right now I act as a tech lead so I don't get to program much though.
Re: IT Careers?
Disoputlip wrote:I do find it a little unfair the way you don't see programming as a critical skill in the it industry.
I will not say you need programming skills to become a programmer. But whatever you wish to become, having understanding of programming, and also beeing a programmer is a cornerstone in the it business.
I hear what you say about programming jobs that goes to India, but even if you have to explain someone in India how to make a program, then programming comes a long way.
And yes, I am fairly technical, thus I have a preference for technical people. Right now I act as a tech lead so I don't get to program much though.
Programming is not important unless you're a programmer. I don't know anyone who has the slightest clue about programming around here, from the network admin, to the helpdesk flunkies, to the guys who got poached to be server techs by our customers or are now heading IT departments.
If you're explaining how to write code to the Indian programmer you outsourced the project to, you should really, REALLY consider finding a new Indian. :P
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
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kiryan
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Re: IT Careers?
fobble... it is utter foolishness to go to college to figure out what you want to do. You waste time and money. Doubly so since outside of a couple subsets of technology your degree is completely pointless and will get you very little improvement on interviewing rate and you won't have the skills you need.
A degree in technology may be worth some more money in some companies... but the skills/experience and certifications are the bigger drivers of pay and interviews especially when you are starting out. Your degree will not get you a job in most technology fields, the lone exception would be the health information management/systems degree or a programming degree if you want to go that route. I would support going to a trade skill school, but certainly nothing like a 4 year college degree unless you want to go in the specific areas I mentioned before. If you want to make it in technology, you learn the skills and go out there and do it.
In technology, you don't get a degree then expect someone to hire you and train you. Unless you want to have a bachelors in computer science on helpdesk. Get an entry level job or get certified. Its not worth the money for college.
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D, programming is a great skill and extremely important for what it makes you capable of and for how it forces you to think. However, for $100 a month you can have a live in nanny/maid in India. Why would you pay someone $4,000 (cheap programmer) a month in the US when you can have an entire team of people in India? People that are just as intelligent and capable and are actually more motivated than American workers? There isn't and thats why so much programming is outsourced. Its the same reason you don't build anything in America, its cheaper to ship it on a freighter.
A degree in technology may be worth some more money in some companies... but the skills/experience and certifications are the bigger drivers of pay and interviews especially when you are starting out. Your degree will not get you a job in most technology fields, the lone exception would be the health information management/systems degree or a programming degree if you want to go that route. I would support going to a trade skill school, but certainly nothing like a 4 year college degree unless you want to go in the specific areas I mentioned before. If you want to make it in technology, you learn the skills and go out there and do it.
In technology, you don't get a degree then expect someone to hire you and train you. Unless you want to have a bachelors in computer science on helpdesk. Get an entry level job or get certified. Its not worth the money for college.
===
D, programming is a great skill and extremely important for what it makes you capable of and for how it forces you to think. However, for $100 a month you can have a live in nanny/maid in India. Why would you pay someone $4,000 (cheap programmer) a month in the US when you can have an entire team of people in India? People that are just as intelligent and capable and are actually more motivated than American workers? There isn't and thats why so much programming is outsourced. Its the same reason you don't build anything in America, its cheaper to ship it on a freighter.
Re: IT Careers?
kiryan wrote: People that are just as intelligent and capable and are actually more motivated than American workers?
We outsourced a project to India last summer when I was getting overwhelmed. Here's just one of the bits of code we got back:
Code: Select all
int active = 0;
CheckBox chkactive = (CheckBox)item.FindControl("chkactive");
if (chkactive.Checked == true)
{
active = 1;
}
dmxdevice.Active = Convert.ToBoolean(active);
So forgive me if I take exception to the "just as intelligent and capable" bit of your post.
EDIT: I don't want to turn this into an outsourcing argument, but while they did get the project done it ended up costing more than what it would have for me to do it myself... and the quality is lower. Management has not suggested outsourcing another project to them...
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Re: IT Careers?
kiryan wrote:fobble... it is utter foolishness to go to college to figure out what you want to do. You waste time and money. Doubly so since outside of a couple subsets of technology your degree is completely pointless and will get you very little improvement on interviewing rate and you won't have the skills you need.
Not a lot of people have their mind up on what they want to do before they go to college. A lot of people don't have their mind up on what they want to do even after college. As for certs and real life experience trumping education in Technology, I agree with you completely here. In specifics of Ashiwi's daughter, if she has her mind up on going into Tech then skipping school for path of certs and real life experience trumps education. If she is on the fence, I am inclined to think college life is worth the time and money.
kiryan wrote:A degree in technology may be worth some more money in some companies... but the skills/experience and certifications are the bigger drivers of pay and interviews especially when you are starting out. Your degree will not get you a job in most technology fields, the lone exception would be the health information management/systems degree or a programming degree if you want to go that route. I would support going to a trade skill school, but certainly nothing like a 4 year college degree unless you want to go in the specific areas I mentioned before. If you want to make it in technology, you learn the skills and go out there and do it.
In technology, you don't get a degree then expect someone to hire you and train you. Unless you want to have a bachelors in computer science on helpdesk. Get an entry level job or get certified. Its not worth the money for college.
I agree with you here. I just don't think Ashiwi's daughter has her mind up about jumping into Tech industry.
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kiryan
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Re: IT Careers?
Sarvis... do you think Americans are inherently more intelligent than Indians? That piece of code you posted raises some serious competency questions of that particular coder / company, but that piece of code could've just as easily been written by someone in America. If, and I think thats a big if, Indian coders are actually currently inferior to American coders in terms of skill... I think it won't be very long before they surpass Americans for several reasons including 1) relative compensation is better, being a coder in India makes you literally rich where it just makes you decent money in America, 2) there are in # a lot more Indian coders than American ones... eventually as their skills and community coalesces they will make each other better and better. In the 90s, I remember reading about and participating in programming competitions and parties... groups of phenomenal programmers gathering around to do things that really pushed the envelope. I don't see it happening in the USA anymore.
Fobble. While I agree with you that Ashiwi's daughter may not be committed to technology. I still maintain that college is an expensive way to figure out what you want to do with your life. Furthermore, college is a very very poor way to figure out if you are going to like working in the IS/IT field because what you study will not reflect what you do... unless you're going into management or programming/database design.
I would also like to point out that if Ashiwi's daughter gets certified or attends some intensive training courses and hates it... she can still use the skills she learned to get a better paying job than she probably could in any other field... With a CCNA or an MCSE or a MCDBA she should make at least 15-20 bucks an hour starting. Assuming she has no other advanced skills, where else is she going to make 15-20 outside of stripping? She can use her earnings to then fund her education in what she wants to do if she ever manages to figure it out.
Fobble. While I agree with you that Ashiwi's daughter may not be committed to technology. I still maintain that college is an expensive way to figure out what you want to do with your life. Furthermore, college is a very very poor way to figure out if you are going to like working in the IS/IT field because what you study will not reflect what you do... unless you're going into management or programming/database design.
I would also like to point out that if Ashiwi's daughter gets certified or attends some intensive training courses and hates it... she can still use the skills she learned to get a better paying job than she probably could in any other field... With a CCNA or an MCSE or a MCDBA she should make at least 15-20 bucks an hour starting. Assuming she has no other advanced skills, where else is she going to make 15-20 outside of stripping? She can use her earnings to then fund her education in what she wants to do if she ever manages to figure it out.
Re: IT Careers?
IT World is fun and organized Chaos. Payoff is there if you have the brains, skills, and diligence. One area that wasn't discussed too much were careers that border between Business/Management and IT. Kiryan touched up on that with Business Analysts jobs. Aside from that there are other IT fields such as Project Management (IT Project Managers), Change Management, and Product Management (Software product management).
All in all, I think this thread has provided sufficient material of perspectives and opinions & counter-opinions for Ashiwi to absorb and digest about IT world. Good luck!
All in all, I think this thread has provided sufficient material of perspectives and opinions & counter-opinions for Ashiwi to absorb and digest about IT world. Good luck!
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Disoputlip
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Re: IT Careers?
Not that this is an outsourcing thread, but what I see right now is danish companies outsourcing to USA.
With the weak dollar, then US programmers are worth it. Mainly because they actually care about what they produce.
India will get into trouble as Bangladesh, Indonesia and others begin to get better educated.
I think the main reason India is doing so well is because a lot of top management don't have a clue about software.
With the weak dollar, then US programmers are worth it. Mainly because they actually care about what they produce.
India will get into trouble as Bangladesh, Indonesia and others begin to get better educated.
I think the main reason India is doing so well is because a lot of top management don't have a clue about software.
Re: IT Careers?
Disoputlip wrote:Not that this is an outsourcing thread, but what I see right now is danish companies outsourcing to USA.
With the weak dollar, then US programmers are worth it. Mainly because they actually care about what they produce.
India will get into trouble as Bangladesh, Indonesia and others begin to get better educated.
I think the main reason India is doing so well is because a lot of top management don't have a clue about software.
I watched a movie called Outsourced a few weeks ago. Really good movie, basically this guys gets sent to India to train his replacement and all the people replacing his staff of call center employees. He's given the impossible mission of getting call times down to an average of 6 minutes (industry standard being anything under 7.) They finally accomplish that, only to be shut down that night so that the jobs can be outsourced to China instead... because China is cheaper.
The point here is that quality doesn't matter, only price. India cannot compete by having quality, well paid programmers. If they try that, China will get the jobs.
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I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Re: IT Careers?
Sarvis wrote:Disoputlip wrote:Not that this is an outsourcing thread, but what I see right now is danish companies outsourcing to USA.
With the weak dollar, then US programmers are worth it. Mainly because they actually care about what they produce.
India will get into trouble as Bangladesh, Indonesia and others begin to get better educated.
I think the main reason India is doing so well is because a lot of top management don't have a clue about software.
I watched a movie called Outsourced a few weeks ago. Really good movie, basically this guys gets sent to India to train his replacement and all the people replacing his staff of call center employees. He's given the impossible mission of getting call times down to an average of 6 minutes (industry standard being anything under 7.) They finally accomplish that, only to be shut down that night so that the jobs can be outsourced to China instead... because China is cheaper.
The point here is that quality doesn't matter, only price. India cannot compete by having quality, well paid programmers. If they try that, China will get the jobs.
Yeah, I saw that movie about a month ago (love the netflix). I always think of you when I watch those kinds of movies, Sarvis :)
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.
Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'
Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
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kiryan
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Re: IT Careers?
Regardless of whether its India, Russia or China... its not in America.
You have to understand, there are probably more programmers in India or China than people in America...
India's quality suffered alot because IT grew too fast (think the 90s and our tech bubble, if you could spell MCSE you could start out at 60k). Its only a matter of time before they are just as capable and professional as US programmers... (assuming they aren't already and your company just hired the poorest bastards they could).
There will always be some demand for US based programmers... but I do not recommend it as a career. Business Systems Analysts is the best longterm segment to be in if you ask me. Certifications in a technical area is quickest way to good money.
You have to understand, there are probably more programmers in India or China than people in America...
India's quality suffered alot because IT grew too fast (think the 90s and our tech bubble, if you could spell MCSE you could start out at 60k). Its only a matter of time before they are just as capable and professional as US programmers... (assuming they aren't already and your company just hired the poorest bastards they could).
There will always be some demand for US based programmers... but I do not recommend it as a career. Business Systems Analysts is the best longterm segment to be in if you ask me. Certifications in a technical area is quickest way to good money.
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Disoputlip
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Re: IT Careers?
Let me clarify.
I know a cutting edge it company, with very skilled danish programmers that right now are outsourcing to USA.
I have talked to one of their architects, and he says they have looked at the world market to seen where they get the most for their money, and the result, for their need, was USA.
Another self employeed I talked to choose to outsource to eastern europe over India, because of a higher RoI.
Mabye it is not the thousands of jobs america needs, but the outsourcing to America is happening right now.
So don't give me that shit about america can't compete. Your salaries have dropped 33% because of the weak dollar, thats a lot.
On the high end scale, then 10 bad programmers can't write the code that 1 good programmer can. I think that is why we will continue to see the majority of standard software applications with a "Made in the USA". Then all the coorporate information systems will go to China etc.
I know a cutting edge it company, with very skilled danish programmers that right now are outsourcing to USA.
I have talked to one of their architects, and he says they have looked at the world market to seen where they get the most for their money, and the result, for their need, was USA.
Another self employeed I talked to choose to outsource to eastern europe over India, because of a higher RoI.
Mabye it is not the thousands of jobs america needs, but the outsourcing to America is happening right now.
So don't give me that shit about america can't compete. Your salaries have dropped 33% because of the weak dollar, thats a lot.
On the high end scale, then 10 bad programmers can't write the code that 1 good programmer can. I think that is why we will continue to see the majority of standard software applications with a "Made in the USA". Then all the coorporate information systems will go to China etc.
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kiryan
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Re: IT Careers?
Eastern Europe I still collectively think about as part of Russia. I didn't say India is going to be the programming power house, but between India Russia and China, the future of software development I don't think is in America.
The dollar is weak... and may be for some time, but our government's policy is supposedly strong dollar. I just see programming in America as being the worst choice in the IS field. Do jobs that work better or more efficiently if done in person. Things like installing and configuring servers and networks and business analysts, security adminsitrators... anything but programming.
The dollar is weak... and may be for some time, but our government's policy is supposedly strong dollar. I just see programming in America as being the worst choice in the IS field. Do jobs that work better or more efficiently if done in person. Things like installing and configuring servers and networks and business analysts, security adminsitrators... anything but programming.
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