Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

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fobble
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Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby fobble » Fri Jul 17, 2009 8:36 pm

Starting a new thread on outsourcing and continuing from where we left off in...

Kifle wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Disoputlip wrote:Not that this is an outsourcing thread, but what I see right now is danish companies outsourcing to USA.

With the weak dollar, then US programmers are worth it. Mainly because they actually care about what they produce.

India will get into trouble as Bangladesh, Indonesia and others begin to get better educated.

I think the main reason India is doing so well is because a lot of top management don't have a clue about software.


I watched a movie called Outsourced a few weeks ago. Really good movie, basically this guys gets sent to India to train his replacement and all the people replacing his staff of call center employees. He's given the impossible mission of getting call times down to an average of 6 minutes (industry standard being anything under 7.) They finally accomplish that, only to be shut down that night so that the jobs can be outsourced to China instead... because China is cheaper.

The point here is that quality doesn't matter, only price. India cannot compete by having quality, well paid programmers. If they try that, China will get the jobs.


Yeah, I saw that movie about a month ago (love the netflix). I always think of you when I watch those kinds of movies, Sarvis :)




kiryan wrote:Regardless of whether its India, Russia or China... its not in America.

You have to understand, there are probably more programmers in India or China than people in America...

India's quality suffered alot because IT grew too fast (think the 90s and our tech bubble, if you could spell MCSE you could start out at 60k). Its only a matter of time before they are just as capable and professional as US programmers... (assuming they aren't already and your company just hired the poorest bastards they could).

There will always be some demand for US based programmers... but I do not recommend it as a career. Business Systems Analysts is the best longterm segment to be in if you ask me. Certifications in a technical area is quickest way to good money.


My 2 cents about outsourcing is that as we become more global, more and more jobs will be outsourced. Not too many jobs are secure in terms of not being eliminated or reduce by outsource. In my opinion, if you really have heart for coding and being a developer. Find a company or government position where security is a big concern and your job is safer than most. I think I mentioned before that Government won't outsource jobs that deal with sensitive data. However now days what's considered sensitive is hard to figure out...considering that our IRS outsourced large chunk of Tax Return work to India.

Edit: On personal note, regardless of what job it is. The biggest factors that will save make your job safe are...
A. Your skills (at your job)
B. Your experience
C. Your office politic/network skill
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:56 pm

I think standard software will stay in US and Europe.

I see so much development going on in both places, and the software speaks for itself.

If there are 3 different programs that does the same, then the most popular will often be written by the most skilled programmers, and few skilled programmers are vastly more important than an army of bad programmers.

I also see brain drain in countries like India, where the best travels to Europe and US and the people back are the bad programmers.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 17, 2009 9:59 pm

Disoputlip wrote:
I also see brain drain in countries like India, where the best travels to Europe and US and the people back are the bad programmers.


This is even in regions within India. The guy who runs the company we outsourced to took me out to lunch after project completion. It came up that towards the end of the project another programmer had to take over, because the original had taken a new job in a bigger city.

Not that any of the code was well written, but he had a few months experience at that point so he could move up and out of whatever tiny town this company was based in. Low standards all around...
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 17, 2009 10:34 pm

All of those are good points, especially the good ones moving to America or Europe or changing jobs frequently.

Another big area that India lacks in is good software project management. Part of this is because although they speak the same language fluently... there is a language barrier due to the cultural differences between US and India.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 18, 2009 12:03 am

If I can state the problem succinctly, it's that when a company is outsourcing the focus is on cost rather than quality. I'm not saying that Indians/Chinese/Whatever can't be good programmers/phone support/manufacturers... I'm saying that once a company has made the decision to outsource they aren't looking for quality. On paper a product is a product, there's no difference between widgetX when created in China vs. India vs. USA. Actually, let's be more general. There's no difference between widgetX when created by CompanyA vs CompanyB vs CompanyC.

The real, actual finished product might suck but as long as it meets the paper design specification upper management will be happy. Consumers, faced with a lack of choice and/or a huge price differential, will just buy the cheaper product. Who cares if it's so poorly designed maintenance takes forever, or if it explodes when a rock hits the gas tank, or if there's lead in the toy? It matches the technical specifications, and the lowest bidder got the job done.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby fobble » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:08 am

Another thing I'd like to add is that if the job in question is just run of the mill banging out widget factory line type of work. It can be outsourced fairly easy.

When it comes to creativity though, this is area that US (even more than Europe imo) leads more than anywhere in the world for now. Do you guys remember that China initially tried to push through the censorship software and University at Michigan found that portion of the code looks very similar if not stolen code from Solid Oaks?

I totally agree with Kiryan on PM aspect of India, we've had very hard time find a suitable PM for our offshore team in India. Went through 3 different PM in 18 months. Culture aspect is difficult to cover too. Most Indians don't speak up, speak their mind, or ask questions, they do as told and that's pretty much it. A whole lot of them don't try or take initives. However now that we spent 18 months with them, they start to open their mind and making headways.

Another big thing about outsource is that any work you send over to outsource team, work needs to documented and documentation need to be detailed, very specific, and leave very little room for interpertation. Plus the tricky part is having the right balanced ratio of onsite and offshore employees.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby Corth » Sat Jul 18, 2009 2:31 am

Wow, Sarvis admitted that consumers will choose a product or service based upon price. Though they are uninformed and do not take quality into account. Still an improvement. We'll make a capitalist out of him yet!

This thread seems to concentrate on IT related outsourcing, but you actually see outsourcing in almost all fields. People have an MRI taken in Cleveland and the films are uploaded to India where a qualified MD forms a conclusion - for a lot less money then it would cost a US based doctor to do the same thing. Just about everything from toys to consumer electronics and soon automobiles are manufactured in asia and shipped to Europe and the US. Of course we all have experienced Indian call-centers. The list goes on and on.

What you have here is the first international labor market in history. The process of globalization, essentially cheap communication and shipping, has made it possible to hire someone halfway around the world almost as easy as it is to hire someone around your block.

Is it a good thing or a bad thing? I don't think you can really apply such a label. It is what it is. People and corporations will continue to make decisions that they feel are in their own best interest, and sometimes they will be right and sometimes wrong. Dell might have ruined its reputation with shoddy Indian call centers - but Walmart sure earns a lot of money selling cheaply produced Chinese goods. The point though is that this market exists and unless you start seeing new world wars it isn't going anywhere.

There will also be winners and losers in globalization on a national level. My feeling is that countries which embrace it and do not create burdensome tarrifs and regulations will in the long run benefit greatly from globalization. Even countries such as ours which are losing jobs in the short run. We will benefit from cheaper goods and services. We will also have a job market, in the long run, more tailored towards doing things that we as a nation are better at. For instance, design, marketing, entertainment, etc.

In the short term though, it means a lot of upheaval. This is a huge change in the way the world operates, and people are finding they are skilled in something that there is no longer a market for. Along with the major demographic issue of the baby boom generation nearing retirement, and the burdensome debt (both public and private) that needs to be worked off, we have some serious challenges. I expect the next 20 years to be really difficult times.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jul 18, 2009 4:27 am

Economics determine very much in modern business. If there is an overall increase in profit for an organization to shift a function elsewhere, assuming expected returns are greater than not making a change, that change may be undertaken if there is an under-utilized resource that can make it happen (that there aren't better projects to undertake with what management you have). People will wave the flag and moan about cultural differences, but those will wane in time.

In the meantime, those working in IT and everywhere else had better get used to the idea of being more competitive. It's no longer just the guys in your area you need to compete with though. No major league, just the world cup. Those with solid basic skills should think about developing soft skills: etiquette, communications, public speaking, social networking, etc.
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby fobble » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:17 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Those with solid basic skills should think about developing soft skills: etiquette, communications, public speaking, social networking, etc.


As IT professional I take offense to this comment. Doesn't my 300 friends in Facebook, World of Warcraft, and Toril count as social networking, communication, and public speaking??!! Even though I never met them or talk to them rl...

Damn itttttttttt!

Anyway for further amusement, please refer to to this pic.
Image
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jul 18, 2009 9:31 pm

Corth wrote:Wow, Sarvis admitted that consumers will choose a product or service based upon price. Though they are uninformed and do not take quality into account. Still an improvement. We'll make a capitalist out of him yet!


I never said consumers don't, I said I don't. :P
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Re: Outsourcing (IT and everything else)

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jul 19, 2009 6:55 am

fobble wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Those with solid basic skills should think about developing soft skills: etiquette, communications, public speaking, social networking, etc.


As IT professional I take offense to this comment. Doesn't my 300 friends in Facebook, World of Warcraft, and Toril count as social networking, communication, and public speaking??!! Even though I never met them or talk to them rl...


My apologies, Fobble, I'm sure my comments only apply to a specific range of people.
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