45 million uninsured americans

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kiryan
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45 million uninsured americans

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:46 pm

Interesting attack on healthcare based on the numbers of uninsured. Claim is that out of the 45 million supposed uninsured, 10 million are illegal immigrants, 17 million can afford health insurance but don't buy it leaving only 11 million (4%) who can't afford it (again don't know how their math works because that doesn't add up to 45). They then go on to say why upend the current system to insure 4% of people.

Attack #2 is that obamacare does nothing to fix the "real issues" in healthcare. Bureacracy and the cost.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2009/07/ ... ealthcare/

It turns out that 253.4 million Americans -- or a whopping 83% of the country -- have health insurance, whether it's through private insurers, employer-based coverage, a government program or Medicaid/Medicare. The majority, 202 million of the 253.4 million, pay for private insurance.
...
Nearly 10 million of those 45 million aren't even American citizens, and nearly 17 million of them can easily afford insurance, but choose not to get it (these folks will be taxed under Obamacare for opting out.) When the numbers are crunched, it turns out that only 11 million legal American citizens who would like health insurance don't have it, and even that figure is likely high. If we take it at 11 million, that's less than 4% of the country.

But is it really necessary to rip apart the health care system we currently have to do it? Yes, we all want better coverage that's more affordable and easier to navigate. Obamacare doesn't solve any of these. All it does is help less than 4% of the country get health insurance, while putting the rest of us through a tangled maze of bureaucracy, for worse care that costs just as much, maybe more.
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 3:50 pm

You realize than when you try to create a word in order to attack the President it makes you sound foolish and ensures no one who doesn't already agree with you will listen, right?

That said, simply counting the uninsured isn't quite enough. You also have to count all the people who have such crappy insurance that in any real emergency they will go bankrupt through medical bills, which is, if I remember correctly, the most common cause of bankruptcy in our country today. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... study.html The really fun part is that even middle class and people on the higher end of the pay scale can be in such a situation.
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kiryan
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:21 pm

I guess you must be referring to Obamacare as the word i made up? I certainly didnt make it up and you would know that if you actually bothered to keep up with news.

I'm not interested in paying for 10 million illegals to have health insurance or even the 2-3 million of those that are probably students from foreign countries. I find that outrageous. I also think they have very legitimate question if its true that only 4% of Americans don't have insurance because they can't afford it, why would we turn the healtchare system upside down to get these people insured. If these numbers are true, the real problems in healthcare need to be addressed in obamacare not the uninsured. If those problems are goign to be addressed then go ahead and destroy the current system... but not to get 11 million people coverage...

Again, I really don't know the #s and they seem somewhat suspect to me. I thought there were more than 10 million illegal immigrants, and 17 million seems like a lot of people who can afford it opting out (unless its all young men ages from 18-30 since they rarely go to the doctor). I've seen first hand how much money ERs cost and how much money they lose because of uninsured people. One of my former companies had 5 hospitals and 5 ERs and we also had a health insurance company that provided coverage to over 200,000 people. The uninsured seems like a bigger problem from first hand experience than 4% seems to dictate... Again, I really don't know. I posted this because it seemed like an interesting argument / observation / set of statistics.

I understand the statistic on poor coverage resulting in lots of bankruptices. I agree that poor coverage is a problem as a matter of fact I am dropping my insurance because of "poor coverage" (not a good value for the $$) and because I'm going to stop overconsuming healthcare.
Last edited by kiryan on Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sarvis
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 4:23 pm

kiryan wrote:I guess you must be referring to Obamacare as the word i made up? I certainly didnt make it up and you would know that if you actually bothered to keep up with news.


I didn't specifically mean you. But using the word doesn't help your case.
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Ragorn
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:01 pm

So kiryan, does this number increase to 45 million and seven since you're dropping your own coverage? :D
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kiryan
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:05 pm

probably not, because I suspect that with the # of kids I have that I'll qualify for free state insurance ;)
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jul 27, 2009 5:06 pm

Ah Christians, never afraid to do the wrong thing while complaining about other people doing it!
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Kifle » Mon Jul 27, 2009 8:27 pm

I think the big issue is not the uninsured, it's the underinsured and the ones whose is so poor it is more of a risk to attempt to use it than to not. I always love the, "Wait, I thought I was covered for this... oh, you only cover that when there's a full moon, I enter the ER at 1:21am on the fifth Sunday of the month?" scenarios. What's wrong with the system is that these companies are selling a service that virtually doesn't exist. It would be nice for it to fix itself, but when you're in the business of selling life, you can charge whatever the hell you want -- especially when you can get turned away from treatment if you have no insurance.

The only way to fix this problem is regulation or socializing healthcare in an attempt to inject artificial competition into the mix. I honestly don't see any other way around it. I'd rather there be regulation so I could preserve my right of choice; however, as long as the system is not socialized for long, I won't be upset. I don't see socialization as a long-term fix, and I agree that it is executed as such, taxes will be the deathknell of the middle class for good.
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kiryan
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:04 pm

One thing that is fundamentally wrong is that the current system is not capitalism. There are certainly elements of capitalism, but the fundamental condition for capitalism is competition and choice. When your company decides what health plan they are going to offer that is not choice. When you can either accept the benefit of partial payment of premiums or completely forego the benefit, that is not choice.

The whole idea of companies providing healthcare needs to be rethought. Its used to band people into risk groups, and used to be a "benefit" to working for certain companies, but now that we as a society have deemed its a right... there are clearly better ways to do this than through your job.

Personally, I think state wide bands modeled after the life insurance ones make the most sense. Age, sex, risk factors including: weight and profession.
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Kifle » Tue Jul 28, 2009 1:50 am

kiryan wrote:One thing that is fundamentally wrong is that the current system is not capitalism. There are certainly elements of capitalism, but the fundamental condition for capitalism is competition and choice. When your company decides what health plan they are going to offer that is not choice. When you can either accept the benefit of partial payment of premiums or completely forego the benefit, that is not choice.

The whole idea of companies providing healthcare needs to be rethought. Its used to band people into risk groups, and used to be a "benefit" to working for certain companies, but now that we as a society have deemed its a right... there are clearly better ways to do this than through your job.

Personally, I think state wide bands modeled after the life insurance ones make the most sense. Age, sex, risk factors including: weight and profession.


This system of capitalism, with respect to healthcare, is distorted in that you only have the illusion of choice. The gunman asking you whether you want shot in the left temple or the right is not really giving you any kind of "choice." And when two robbers are attempting to persuade you letting you get robbed by themselves rather than the other, you're still getting robbed -- you only have the illusion of competition.
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Desirsar
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Re: 45 million uninsured americans

Postby Desirsar » Tue Jul 28, 2009 3:40 am

kiryan wrote:I'm not interested in paying for 10 million illegals to have health insurance or even the 2-3 million of those that are probably students from foreign countries.


Students from foreign countries have to pay for health insurance either through a private insurer or through their university as part of their admission and student visa application.

Illegals are a whole separate issue. Deport ALL illegals, increase ALL immigration quotas to all nations. (In particular, massively increase student visas. I want more hot foreign girls in my classes!)

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