Cancelling my health insurance.

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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Alta » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:10 pm

Oh, and Kiryan's arguement is also that if we don't have insurance, I might re-evaluate what is important enough to go to the doctor. Often times you can just call and talk to a nurse and there is no charge when you just have a question about a fever for a baby. If it is serious enough, you can come in, same day and see a nurse, maybe get a prescrition. But would I run down to the ER because my baby has a fever? Definately not if I am private paying and probably not if I had insurance. We over use insurance which is probably why it costs so much. Healthy adults don't need to see a doctor yearly. But women do have feminine exams yearly. Maybe it's every other year. I'm just prego so much and have always had insurance, so I just go every year. Kiryan is a healthy adult and would probably go every 5 years, but is such a cheapskate, won't even pay a copay to go that often. I bet he hasn't been to a doctor in 15 years. But, he is coming from a family that goes to a doctor to have a million tests done because of indigestion. Every sniffle, headache, unusual bowel movement and someone goes to the doctor. I witnessed it myself and I couldn't believe it. It is like they are trying to find something to be wrong with them. Kiryan was taken to the doctor so much as a child, had every mole removed and checked for cancer... I think it was so overboard, that he is trying to go the other extreme. I'm sharing this with you in case you're wondering why he's so against going to the doctor for everything. It's nice to know where people are coming from.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:13 pm

1) Oregon law (and several states have similar wording).

I did extensive research on this. Likely to endanger the health or welfare of a child has been ruled in Oregon to include putting them at greater risk... specifically of kidnapping even if that risk was very minor to begin with.

2) http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/ ... ?techid=44

The United States Department of Transportation (DOT) National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) has developed a Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard that requires the installation of tire pressure monitoring systems (TPMS) that warn the driver when a tire is significantly underinflated. The standard applies to passenger cars, trucks, multipurpose passenger vehicles and buses with a gross vehicle weight rating of 10,000 pounds or less, except those vehicles with dual wheels on an axle.

I read this went into effect like 1/1 2007 or 2008. California also has a law.

3) If I had an MRI everytime I had a migrane when I was a kid... btw, my parents were friends with a family who'se son died from an aneryusm. He had a headache didn't go with them out to dinner for pizza, they came back and he was dead.

4) I'm sure lots of women and babies are saved. but at what point does the cost of the tests outweigh the value of preventing every preventable death?

There is a genetic test they do after a baby is born. It affects like .000001 percent of babies. If the baby has this condition and you don't change their diet within a week or 2, they basically get permanent brain damage. At what point would you not be willing to pay for this test? $.50, $5, $50, $500, $5,000? Luckily you don't have to think about it in these terms because its now bundled into the cost... nationally though even if it costs 50 cents, we may be spending $5 million for each succesful diagnosis and treatment of this condition. Does that make sense to you?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:16 pm

The cough, on the other hand, fits into this discussion and is perfectly valid. You shouldn't wait 4 months because you will cause permanent damage.


I only waited 3 weeks or so, but by then the infection was too strong for the first round of anti-biotics. And the second. And the third. The 4th did the trick... but by then it was 4 months later. :(

And I'm not whining about the haircut, I'm just pointing out that Kiryan wants to clean his kids' teeth... and that requires much more precise and fine-tuned movements than a haircut does.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:22 pm

Alta wrote:Oh, and Kiryan's arguement is also that if we don't have insurance, I might re-evaluate what is important enough to go to the doctor. Often times you can just call and talk to a nurse and there is no charge when you just have a question about a fever for a baby. If it is serious enough, you can come in, same day and see a nurse, maybe get a prescrition. But would I run down to the ER because my baby has a fever? Definately not if I am private paying and probably not if I had insurance. We over use insurance which is probably why it costs so much. Healthy adults don't need to see a doctor yearly. But women do have feminine exams yearly. Maybe it's every other year. I'm just prego so much and have always had insurance, so I just go every year. Kiryan is a healthy adult and would probably go every 5 years, but is such a cheapskate, won't even pay a copay to go that often. I bet he hasn't been to a doctor in 15 years. But, he is coming from a family that goes to a doctor to have a million tests done because of indigestion. Every sniffle, headache, unusual bowel movement and someone goes to the doctor. I witnessed it myself and I couldn't believe it. It is like they are trying to find something to be wrong with them. Kiryan was taken to the doctor so much as a child, had every mole removed and checked for cancer... I think it was so overboard, that he is trying to go the other extreme. I'm sharing this with you in case you're wondering why he's so against going to the doctor for everything. It's nice to know where people are coming from.


I agree it sounds like he's overcompensating. It just worries me that the kids will suffer for it...

It's definitely possible to wait too long to see a doctor...

Oh, and it sounds like your insurance is pretty crappy if they don't cover prescriptions. That's a pretty big factor, since prescriptions are usually the most expensive part after I go to the doctor.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:29 pm

1) Wow, that does seem a bit excessive. Is kidnapping really that big of a problem in Oregon?

2) Can't be that well enforced, I don't have such sensors in my car....

3) Sounds like they over-reacted in the same way you are, but in the opposite direction. I can understand, though. I saw someone get run over downtown last fall, and I still find myself checking every direction at least twice while walking across the street. (Especially that intersection!)

kiryan wrote:4) I'm sure lots of women and babies are saved. but at what point does the cost of the tests outweigh the value of preventing every preventable death?


This from the guy who's against stem cell research... I thought life was sacred?

There is a genetic test they do after a baby is born. It affects like .000001 percent of babies. If the baby has this condition and you don't change their diet within a week or 2, they basically get permanent brain damage. At what point would you not be willing to pay for this test? $.50, $5, $50, $500, $5,000? Luckily you don't have to think about it in these terms because its now bundled into the cost... nationally though even if it costs 50 cents, we may be spending $5 million for each succesful diagnosis and treatment of this condition. Does that make sense to you?


Honestly, the amount I would pay would be tied to the amount I could afford, and nothing else. I can't think of a worse thing to happen to a person than brain damage... the entire potential of a person's life wasted, locked in a shell they can never escape from. *shudder*
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Alta » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:32 pm

Don't worry Sarvis! The children will be fine. You think I would let any of my babies go through undue pain and suffering or put them in any danger? Mothers can't stand the suffering of their children. You only get Kiryan's side of the story. Don't forget that behind every great man, there is a woman.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Corth » Wed Jul 29, 2009 6:39 pm

I don't see the risk though. Maybe I missed something - but there IS insurance. Just a very high deductible. If something happens they have to pay $5k but then everything else will be taken care of. Where its going to cost them is the little things. Routine shit. But then they don't have to pay large premiums, and they can also negotiate with doctors. Seems entirely reasonable, and not as risky as some people are making it out to be.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:29 pm

Alta wrote:Don't worry Sarvis! The children will be fine. You think I would let any of my babies go through undue pain and suffering or put them in any danger?



You married Kiryan, didn't you? :P
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:34 pm

Corth wrote:I don't see the risk though. Maybe I missed something - but there IS insurance. Just a very high deductible. If something happens they have to pay $5k but then everything else will be taken care of. Where its going to cost them is the little things. Routine shit. But then they don't have to pay large premiums, and they can also negotiate with doctors. Seems entirely reasonable, and not as risky as some people are making it out to be.


It sounded like an "emergency only" policy. I guess I don't know the details, but I got the idea it would only cover big emergencies like maybe a car accident or heart attack. Not sure if it would cover common non-emergency things like appendicitis or tonsilectomies... or even 4 rounds of antibiotics for bronchitis.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Alta » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:40 pm

FYI, car accidents are not covered by health insurance. Only car insurance.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:44 pm

D'oh. I should have known that.

What about falling out of a tree house and breaking both legs?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Alta » Wed Jul 29, 2009 7:46 pm

Tree insurance. But fruit trees have an exclusionary clause, so never build a tree house in a cherry tree.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:11 pm

I was wondering why it seemed like such a big deal. The type of policy Kiryan is referring to, unless I'm wrong, is just a high deductible policy. You can buy policies like this with a $5000.00 or $10000.00 deductible, so in the case of something catastrophic, you'd be out of pocket for less than the cost of a new car, and the insurance would cover the rest. Many of the policies you get like this will also provide some office visit benefits and some preventative care benefits. Depending on the type of policy he gets, if it follows his state's mandates, the kids may still be fully covered for well child care and immunizations.

The problem with policies like that when they're picked up on an individual basis instead of through an employer, is that there may be extensive pre-existing clauses that can last the life of the policy. The individual policies I know of require you to take maternity coverage as an option, and when you do, it's not covered for a full year until after you start the policy.

I'm sure Kiryan will have all his ducks in a row when he decides on an option.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:13 pm

Oh, Kiryan, have you looked into whether or not your employer offers some kind of HCA/HSA high deductible policy?

Considering your feelings on financial waste, I don't think I'd suggest an FSA.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Wed Jul 29, 2009 8:47 pm

I've used FSA successfully in the past, but the whole use it or lose it thing is a problem.

We don't have the option of a high deducbitle plan at my current employer. At other companies I've worked for the high deducbile plan is not really that high and not much of a cost savings vs the low deductible plan.

Sarvis, if I had a $5,000 deductible and someone came down with appendicitis, I'd pay 5k and they would generally cover the rest. If it was a perforated appendix at somewhere around $45k, I would pay 5k.

Ashiwi, I'd be very surprised if any insurance company could have it in their policy that pregnancy was a pre-existing condition. We are talking about hipaa here... thats at the federal level. I don't see how they could get away with it.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:31 am

Kiryan, yes, you're right. When I was using pre-existing, I was using it pretty generally, and I apologize for the confusion (I was also at work at the time, and have to be as brief as possible on insurance matters when I post from there). I tried to clarify in my last post, but maybe I didn't make it very clear. When employer funded policies have a pre-existing conditions clause it's typically a year long (18 months if the member joins after the initial post-hire date enrollment period), and maternity isn't considered pre-existing. Individual policies that don't offer maternity coverage immediately don't refer to it as a pre-existing conditions clause. Because they're not held under the same guidelines as employer funded health insurance, individual policies can sell policies without maternity coverage, and offer an additional supplemental coverage for maternity which doesn't become active until one year after the policy's effective date.

Yes, it's legal because it's not an employer funded group policy. Non-employer funded plans can also utilize lookback periods of much longer than the HIPAA mandated six months, and can impose pre-existing terms for the life of the policy.

If you decided down the road that you needed an insurance plan, you would have to either wait for your company's open enrollment period, or pick up an individual policy. If you're planning on picking up a policy that is not offered by your group, then it's likely going to be an individual policy, and they just don't work the same as the employer funded plans.

You should be able to find more under the www.dol.gov website, if you'd like to look at it. HIPAA is a Department of Labor act. You should also check your state mandates to determine if they have any regulations regarding this. I'm not sure if they will, since most state mandates apply only to employer funded policies, and even for those they often only apply to groups of a set size or larger, like fifty.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Kifle » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:27 am

Sarvis wrote:
kiryan wrote:4) I'm sure lots of women and babies are saved. but at what point does the cost of the tests outweigh the value of preventing every preventable death?


This from the guy who's against stem cell research... I thought life was sacred?


Lol, busted.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:37 pm

not even. not spending to save a life is not anywhere close to the same as intentionally destroying embryos for research. as a matter of fact, over spending / consuming healthcare puts you at risk of idolatry regarding your "life". You are completely failing to understand the view point or purposefully distorting it.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:40 pm

kiryan wrote:not even. not spending to save a life is not anywhere close to the same as intentionally destroying embryos for research.


They are being destroyed anyway. They were destroyed. No lives were saved by their destruction.

as a matter of fact, over spending / consuming healthcare puts you at risk of idolatry regarding your "life". You are completely failing to understand the view point or purposefully distorting it.


You really have no idea what idolatry means, do you?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 4:47 pm

Lives don't have to be saved to be right and moral, they just have to not be intentionally destroyed.

You really think you know what idolatry means in the Christian context better than I do? I suppose its possible, but it seems very improbable to me. Idolatry is not just having gold statues, it also includes the worship of money... it can be a focus on having more children than anyone else, it can be trying to be the perfect christian so everyone else thinks your the best... idolatry is worship which can be reflected in the amount of time and money you spend preserving your own life. Isn't always, but you definitely can make healthcare an idol in your life.

Now what exactly don't I understand about idolatry?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:04 pm

kiryan wrote:Lives don't have to be saved to be right and moral, they just have to not be intentionally destroyed.


They were intentionally destroyed. They were just not used, afterwards, for research.

Now what exactly don't I understand about idolatry?


That trying to stay alive is NOT idolatry. It's what we're supposed to do.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:06 pm

staying alive can absolutely be idolatry. you are completely wrong here. Its not always idolatry, but it can be.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:39 pm

kiryan wrote:staying alive can absolutely be idolatry. you are completely wrong here. Its not always idolatry, but it can be.



Image
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:58 pm

you know I was thinking.. there is no way Sarvis can understand the subtlities of this subject, should I even bother.

Clearly no.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:11 pm

The subtleties of you making crap up and using bad logic? You're right.

Trying to stay alive is not idolatry. It's not even a belief. It's fucking instinct.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:25 pm

Feel free to reject it on the basis of what you believe. That could be valid from your point of view.

but you are unquestionably wrong to say idolatry in the christian context does not exactly mean what I said.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:44 pm

Massive eyeroll here.

Idolatry is when the worship of something other than God takes precedence over God. It all falls back to the whole "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" thing.

When the pursuit of medical care supercedes one's faith in God, it can be considered idolatry. The pursuit of unnecessary medical care isn't exactly "staying alive" because if it's unnecessary it's not going to keep you alive, anyway. To pursue medical care to the point of placing your burden on the shoulders of others to an unnecessary extent is irresponsible.

Not offering somebody unnecessary medical care in an attempt to profit off their fear of death in no way compares to intentionally destroying life.
Sarvis, if you want to continue such a silly comparison, please exhibit your detailed analysis supporting why spending more than we have is a good thing. I'd really love to see a substantive and precise support of why it's a good thing to spend more on medical care costs than any organization takes in payment.

Would I pay a nickel to save a baby's life if it gives them the test they need to diagnose their rare condition? Why yes, I would. Would I pay a nickel for every baby born in this country every year even though only one of them is going to have that condition? Would I pay a nickel for every single situation just like this where one test would diagnose a one in a million condition each year, which could be thousands upon thousands of conditions for every single human being who lives in the United States including all legal and illegal immigrants? Are you going to decide which ones we pay for and which ones we don't? Are you going to be the one who decides which one lives and which one dies because funds are no longer available, thus being personally responsible for those deaths?

Nickles add up.

Although I do understand that adding .05 plus .05 may be beyond the capacity of some when they're trying to make a really erroneous point.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:02 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Massive eyeroll here.

Idolatry is when the worship of something other than God takes precedence over God. It all falls back to the whole "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" thing.


You'll have a point when I see people praying to their HMO. Until then, not idolatry. They are not worshiping medical care, they are just trying their best to remain safe and alive.

When the pursuit of medical care supercedes one's faith in God, it can be considered idolatry.


Can you even explain a single reasonable scenario in which "pursuit of medical care" has superceded a person's faith? No one is casting down God to get a flu shot, here. They are simply spending money and/or insurance in an attempt to be healthier.

Not offering somebody unnecessary medical care in an attempt to profit off their fear of death in no way compares to intentionally destroying life.


I didn't say it did. For the 50th or 60th time (and really it's only Kiryan that should be so dense as to need this repeated) those lives were destroyed anyway. They are dead, nothing Bush did saved them. Gone. Dead. Want to keep them from dying? Stop in vitro fertilization. Until then, it's a wasted resource because they are killed anyway. The remains could have been used to save lives, in exactly the same way we do organ transplants from people who have died.

He is against saving lives in that manner.

Sarvis, if you want to continue such a silly comparison, please exhibit your detailed analysis supporting why spending more than we have is a good thing. I'd really love to see a substantive and precise support of why it's a good thing to spend more on medical care costs than any organization takes in payment.


Where did I say anything at all about spending more on medical care than an organization takes in payment?

Would I pay a nickel to save a baby's life if it gives them the test they need to diagnose their rare condition? Why yes, I would. Would I pay a nickel for every baby born in this country every year even though only one of them is going to have that condition? Would I pay a nickel for every single situation just like this where one test would diagnose a one in a million condition each year, which could be thousands upon thousands of conditions for every single human being who lives in the United States including all legal and illegal immigrants? Are you going to decide which ones we pay for and which ones we don't? Are you going to be the one who decides which one lives and which one dies because funds are no longer available, thus being personally responsible for those deaths?


You'd rather just let all of them die. So sorry if you're little moral dilemma doesn't phase me.

Oh, and considering every example of socialized medicine in the entire world is cheaper than ours I'm not entirely sure why subsidizing that cost equates to spending more money. Or why choosing to let people die instead of spending money shows you believe life is sacred. Or why spending money to get a test is worshiping medicine over God.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Botef » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:41 pm

Hay guys Sarvis is right, I'm not obese I'm just saving food for winter and trying to stay alive.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:45 pm

Botef wrote:Hay guys Sarvis is right, I'm not obese I'm just saving food for winter and trying to stay alive.


By your sarcastic tone I can tell you think bears are idolaters. Right?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Botef » Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:47 pm

If by bear you mean Kevin Smith, than yes.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Kifle » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:09 pm

kiryan wrote:Lives don't have to be saved to be right and moral, they just have to not be intentionally destroyed.


Isn't ignoring a potentially fatal disease intentionally destroying a life though? It seems to me like your beliefs are just at odds here. On one hand, you'd rather be fiscally responsible as far as this testing goes because it is not "practical," financially, in the long run; however, the tests do save lives -- that can't be ignored. The fact is, at this point, there is no other way (which I know about) to catch this fatal disorder except the test; therefore, this test is necessary in preventing the deaths of innocent children. Actively ending the life of an unborn child is very comparable to allowing a child to die through aquiescence. As the old adage goes: if you can stop a man from being shot, yet you do nothing, you may as well have pulled the trigger yourself.

Basically, in your statement, you said, "it's ok to let children die when it's financially convenient for me to do so." So as long as the financial burden doesn't come back to you in the form of raised taxes or higher healthcare costs, it's ok for innocent babies to die? I don't think moral passivity and convenience is what Jesus was yammering about -- unless you're a Catholic, then you can pretty much do whatever the hell you want.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 8:27 pm

You know what? Maybe next time I'll just wait and let Kifle handle it for me...
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:33 pm

I don't think you can prove that inaction = action by default and I won't concede that point. its an esoteric arugment best left to students of philosophy entertaining themselves. Bush isn't violating God's law by not taking action to eliminate the destruction of fetuses through in vitro, but he is upholding at least a tenent of it through the action of the stem cell ban. Would it have been more pleasing to God for him to take action on in vitro, probably.

Christianity is goverened by whats right and wrong and in some cases inaction would be wrong and in others you probably are not required to take action. A lot of what this comes down to is do you have faith in God, or do you have faith in yourself or medicine. Running around purusing every possible way of protecting and extending your life could very easily be idolatry. It could also be perfectly fine. The opposite, never do anything letting nature always take its course is also wrong. they are like the believer who quits his job because "god provides"... yes he does, but you are not following scripture by behaving in this manner.

If you want to know whehter you are wrong or right in a situation, read the scripture, pray... he will let you know (but you have to be listening).
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:44 pm

kiryan wrote:I don't think you can prove that inaction = action by default and I won't concede that point. its an esoteric arugment best left to students of philosophy entertaining themselves. Bush isn't violating God's law by not taking action to eliminate the destruction of fetuses through in vitro, but he is upholding at least a tenent of it through the action of the stem cell ban. Would it have been more pleasing to God for him to take action on in vitro, probably.


Without banning in vitro, the stem cell ban accomplished nothing except delaying research. It did not save any "lives." It prevented no destruction of fetuses. It did nothing except give a bunch of fundies a little happy feeling. That is all it accomplished, other than setting back medical research 5 years.

Running around purusing every possible way of protecting and extending your life could very easily be idolatry.


If you start worshiping the HMO, maybe. But no one is. In fact, I'm betting that every mother waiting for the results of those tests is, in fact, praying to God that the results are good. To say that taking a precaution is idolatry, even if an expensive precaution, is ludicrous. Is it idolatry if I buckle my seatbelt? If a smoker quits smoking?

It could also be perfectly fine.


Luckily we have Kiryan here to judge.

If you want to know whehter you are wrong or right in a situation, read the scripture, pray... he will let you know (but you have to be listening).


Yeah, my mind tells me stuff too. I just don't call it the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

For instance, I wasn't feeling good when I woke up this morning. I fell back asleep after hitting snooze and had a dream that I got up, emailed the office to let them know I was taking a personal day and then went back to sleep.

I woke up half an hour later, realized I couldn't have actually done that (since the email client I used in the dream doesn't work from home) and decided I should probably email in sick.

I just don't think Zeus was the one giving me the hint, here.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:59 pm

you're pretty foolish to assume that just because you don't know god that he isn't real. scientifically you may not be able to discern the diffrence between FSM and God, but make no mistake God exists and when judgment comes you will be the fool. Very very foolish to pass judgment without bothering to investigate it more deeply than reading christianity for dummies. Educate yourself instead of just believing what you need to so that you can continue living the way you want to.

lol not quitting smoking? are you for real? quit being an idiot. I didn't say doing anything "healthy" means you're making it an idol. I said healthcare taken to an extreme can very easily be idolatry and you said no its not, you don't understand what idolatry is.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:10 am

kiryan wrote:you're pretty foolish to assume that just because you don't know god that he isn't real.


You're right. It's at least as likely that he exists but doesn't care about us.

scientifically you may not be able to discern the diffrence between FSM and God, but make no mistake God exists and when judgment comes you will be the fool. Very very foolish to pass judgment without bothering to investigate it more deeply than reading christianity for dummies. Educate yourself instead of just believing what you need to so that you can continue living the way you want to.


I never read Christianity for Dummies, I just observe the way Christians behave. By the way, judging people in the way you are right now? Pretty sure that's a no-no.

lol not quitting smoking? are you for real? quit being an idiot. I didn't say doing anything "healthy" means you're making it an idol. I said healthcare taken to an extreme can very easily be idolatry and you said no its not, you don't understand what idolatry is.


Why? Why do YOU determine what level of healthy living qualifies as idolatry? Where is the cutoff point? For that matter, you keep saying I'm ignorant of what idolatry is? Maybe you should explain exactly what it is, and why getting your child tested for a disease qualifies.

Then go to the waiting room of any mother getting one of those tests, and watch how she has her head bowed and is murmuring something to... whatever entity she thinks cares that her child will be ok. God said, "be fruitful and multiply." Not, "be fruitful and let your children die to something easily prevented."
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:08 am

pointing out the obvious, telling you that you are wrong... is not the same as judging in biblical terms. enjoy your ignorance.

show me where I state that testing your kid is idolatry? I generally don't try and make those kinds of judgements because its very much specific to the person and nearly impossible to judge from the outside.

if the pursuit of money can be idolatry, why can't the pursuit of medical care? or a focus on your family / having 18 bazillion kids? idolatry is putting somethign before god, it can be anything, even something he says is good to do.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:39 am

kiryan wrote:pointing out the obvious, telling you that you are wrong... is not the same as judging in biblical terms. enjoy your ignorance.


Ignorance of what, your delusions? I'm sure I can find a homeless guy somewhere who "knows" he is God in exactly the same way you "know" God exists. Without any actual proof of God's existence, which you do not have, you are judging me as wrong and ignorant.

show me where I state that testing your kid is idolatry? I generally don't try and make those kinds of judgements because its very much specific to the person and nearly impossible to judge from the outside.


Umm, how about where you used testing kids for a rare disease as an example and then said such excessive use of medical care was idolatry? It's kind of how this tangent got started, for those of us who were paying attention.


if the pursuit of money can be idolatry, why can't the pursuit of medical care? or a focus on your family / having 18 bazillion kids? idolatry is putting somethign before god, it can be anything, even something he says is good to do.


I don't think I've seen anyone pray to the dollar bill either. Got evidence to the contrary?

By the way:

"An idol is a material object, representing a deity, to which religious worship is directed.[1] In Christianity, idolatry can refer to the worship of false gods through the use of idols, or alleged worship of the true God through the use of icons" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idolatry_and_Christianity

Healthcare is not a material object, no religious worship is directed towards it AND it fails to represent either false or "true" Gods.

So yeah, it's Wikipedia... but that was drawn from the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, which sounds pretty authoratative to me. Much more authoritative than a guy who claims he hear's God speaking to him in his head, anyway. That's usually reserved for serial killers and nutjob Presidents.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:51 am

So are any of you going to explain why it's right to do that one test, but not the hundreds of others that detect rare or uncommon diseases and conditions? There are certain tests that are done, but many, many, many others that are left undone.

"You'd rather just let all of them die. So sorry if you're little moral dilemma doesn't phase me. "

The same argument can be made, Sarvis ... You'd rather let all the rest of them die. That's silly, though. People are always so willing to raise a stink about one little thing they hear about and decide to jump on as unfair or immoral, but sometimes people never consider the big picture.

I'm not going to go into the logistics and details of your "every example of socialized medicine is cheaper than ours" rant, because that's been hashed over in a dozen other threads, but seriously, how could the numbers not be clear? If every test for every rare or uncommon condition or disease was performed on everybody in the United States, it would cost tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands over the lifetime, per person. If you had a policy for just you, without knowing your exact age or state of health at this time, I'd guess it would cost you a little less than $300.00 a month, if not quite a bit less. So if these tests are being performed on every individual because each one might potentially save a life, how are your guesstimated $3600.00 yearly premiums paying for all of that, plus your other healthcare, plus offsetting the cost of others in your insured group? Try to remember that it's the premiums of the healthy people that pay for the healthcare of the sick people in health insurance, so your premiums really need to be able to absorb that new burden plus continue to offset the cost of those who get far more monetary value out of the policy than they actually put in.

Now, move that over into the uninsured sector. The cost would have to be absorbed by somebody. Medical practices would have to absorb the cost or turn to the government for subsidies, and there's not a doctor out there who would willingly do thousands of dollars of tests on each of his patients every year knowing he's not going to get paid for it. Medicare already can't pull its weight. Somebody has to pay for these tests.

BRCA1 and BRCA2 gene assays, alone, would save countless lives every year. Think of how many lives prophylactic mastectomies would save (and before you joke, you'd be surprised how many women who have watched family members suffer and die would line up for one if they felt they had a good chance of getting the same kind of cancer). Yearly MRIs, PET scans, ultrasounds, and multiple other tests to find potential blood clots, early stage cancers, and a host of other conditions in otherwise healthy people would prevent an untold number of fatalities. The list goes on and on. Your logic is fallible because each of these tests is potentially lifesaving, and many of them would save far more lives than the newborn test you're referring to.

Every day I work with people who have lost a loved one. That's my job in a nutshell, working with people whose mother/father/newborn/whole family just died. Occasionally I'm asked to act as a case manager for somebody who just received what may potentially be a terminal diagnosis, and is having problems knowing where to go from there, or how to keep all their bills straight, or just needs somebody who will cry with them. My heart breaks for every one of my cases who was denied an experimental PET scan, or a revolutionary new treatment not yet approved by the FDA. My heart also breaks for those who exhaust their $2,000,000.00 lifetime maximum benefit and die owing hundreds of thousands of dollars more to doctors and hospitals.

"You'd rather just let all of them die. So sorry if you're little moral dilemma doesn't phase me. " You really do open your mouth before you have a clue, don't you?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 2:56 am

i·dol·a·try (ī-dŏl'ə-trē)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries

Worship of idols.
Blind or excessive devotion to something.

[Middle English idolatrie, from Old French, from Latin īdōlolatrīa, from Greek eidōlolatreiā : eidōlon, idol; see idol + latreiā, service.]
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:38 am

Ashiwi wrote:i·dol·a·try (ī-dŏl'ə-trē)
n. pl. i·dol·a·tries

Worship of idols.
Blind or excessive devotion to something.

[Middle English idolatrie, from Old French, from Latin īdōlolatrīa, from Greek eidōlolatreiā : eidōlon, idol; see idol + latreiā, service.]


Utilization != devotion
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:42 am

Ashiwi wrote:So are any of you going to explain why it's right to do that one test,


You know, no one named any specific test... and I see no reason not to do appropriate testing. I suspect most of the diseases in your following rant have risk-factors associated? You even said the "prophylactic mastectomy" thing would be for women who had a history of cancer in their family, right? So we aren't talking about everyone, we're talking about those who are at risk.

Let me phrase this another way. If you were Bill Gates, would you choose to have these tests done on your kids?

If yes, how can you deny the children of your average factory worker the same chance at life?


My heart breaks for every one of my cases who was denied an experimental PET scan, or a revolutionary new treatment not yet approved by the FDA. My heart also breaks for those who exhaust their $2,000,000.00 lifetime maximum benefit and die owing hundreds of thousands of dollars more to doctors and hospitals.


Yes, this is kind of the point isn't it?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:14 am

Ashiwi wrote:So are any of you going to explain why it's right to do that one test, but not the hundreds of others that detect rare or uncommon diseases and conditions? There are certain tests that are done, but many, many, many others that are left undone.

"You'd rather just let all of them die. So sorry if you're little moral dilemma doesn't phase me. "

The same argument can be made, Sarvis ... You'd rather let all the rest of them die. That's silly, though. People are always so willing to raise a stink about one little thing they hear about and decide to jump on as unfair or immoral, but sometimes people never consider the big picture.

I'm not going to go into the logistics and details of your "every example of socialized medicine is cheaper than ours" rant, because that's been hashed over in a dozen other threads, but seriously, how could the numbers not be clear? If every test for every rare or uncommon condition or disease was performed on everybody in the United States, it would cost tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands over the lifetime, per person. If you had a policy for just you, without knowing your exact age or state of health at this time, I'd guess it would cost you a little less than $300.00 a month, if not quite a bit less. So if these tests are being performed on every individual because each one might potentially save a life, how are your guesstimated $3600.00 yearly premiums paying for all of that, plus your other healthcare, plus offsetting the cost of others in your insured group? Try to remember that it's the premiums of the healthy people that pay for the healthcare of the sick people in health insurance, so your premiums really need to be able to absorb that new burden plus continue to offset the cost of those who get far more monetary value out of the policy than they actually put in.

Now, move that over into the uninsured sector. The cost would have to be absorbed by somebody. Medical practices would have to absorb the cost or turn to the government for subsidies, and there's not a doctor out there who would willingly do thousands of dollars of tests on each of his patients every year knowing he's not going to get paid for it. Medicare already can't pull its weight. Somebody has to pay for these tests.

BRCA1 and BRCA2 gene assays, alone, would save countless lives every year. Think of how many lives prophylactic mastectomies would save (and before you joke, you'd be surprised how many women who have watched family members suffer and die would line up for one if they felt they had a good chance of getting the same kind of cancer). Yearly MRIs, PET scans, ultrasounds, and multiple other tests to find potential blood clots, early stage cancers, and a host of other conditions in otherwise healthy people would prevent an untold number of fatalities. The list goes on and on. Your logic is fallible because each of these tests is potentially lifesaving, and many of them would save far more lives than the newborn test you're referring to.

Every day I work with people who have lost a loved one. That's my job in a nutshell, working with people whose mother/father/newborn/whole family just died. Occasionally I'm asked to act as a case manager for somebody who just received what may potentially be a terminal diagnosis, and is having problems knowing where to go from there, or how to keep all their bills straight, or just needs somebody who will cry with them. My heart breaks for every one of my cases who was denied an experimental PET scan, or a revolutionary new treatment not yet approved by the FDA. My heart also breaks for those who exhaust their $2,000,000.00 lifetime maximum benefit and die owing hundreds of thousands of dollars more to doctors and hospitals.

"You'd rather just let all of them die. So sorry if you're little moral dilemma doesn't phase me. " You really do open your mouth before you have a clue, don't you?


Ash, from what I gathered, this specific disorder has no symptoms and/or can not be caught in time after symptoms become apparent. These other rare diseases will not end the baby's life within a week unless diagnosed and avoided. Some of those rare conditions you are using as counterexamples are conditions which have no cure, and catching them at a young age would be inconsequential to the longevity or quality of the babies' lives. In fact, you'd be hard pressed to find a handful of such disease.

So, if you want to make a counterexample to this disease, you have to meet the same criteria this disease meets to be a mandatory test: extremely short (week/2weeks if I read correctly) "catching" the disease to death time-frame, the very high risk of death due to the difficulty in diagnosing through symptom formation, and the extremely low relative cost of the test. Do that, and I'll give the rest of your post a read; otherwise, you've just created a strawman, your argument would hold no validity, and examination of such an argument would lead this discussion nowhere useful.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:26 am

kiryan wrote:I don't think you can prove that inaction = action by default and I won't concede that point. its an esoteric arugment best left to students of philosophy entertaining themselves.


First, the last statement here is a cheap cop-out. All moral/ethical discussions are "best left to students of philosophy entertaining themselves," is just a good way to enter into an ethical debate and then argue the pointlessness of it once you've been pushed into a contradiction. If you want to discuss ethics, which you do quite often, then be prepared to explain things instead of deflect away from the tough situations.

Second, if your baby was drowning in the bathtub, wouldn't it be murder if you just stood there and let it die? Inaction always equals action to some extent. It explicitly implies a choice which you've made. Making a choice is always an action -- whether it be conscious or not. In this case, we are talking about conscious decisions of inaction. You can not argue that a conscious decision is not an action.

Outside of logic, this specific case is directly applicable to choosing death over life -- one which is not your own. If the arguments for abortion are valid for you, the same most hold true for this case. If abortion is wrong, partially because you are choosing the death of a sentient being who is not in possession of the physical or mental faculties matured to the point of making its own decision, then allowing it do die when you have the ability to save its life is, to some extent, murder. Furthermore, would the child choose to have this test done on them? Would you choose it to be done on you if you were a baby? For someone who cares so deeply about the sanctity of life for those who are denied it by selfishness, inability to sustain another life, or other grey-area reasons, you sure do sell out quite cheaply. So, can we safely say that life, for you, has a very low price as long as that life is a) not your own and/or b) is some godless heathen's unborn child?
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:20 pm

Yea it is a cop out, but it sounded clever ;) but so much in that you can debate the ethics of a specific situation, I'll still argue that you can't take the general principle and apply it in general.

In some situations, I would agree that inaction = action by default... like with the baby dieing. In others, I would not like not taking your kid in to the doctor because he had what sounds like a normal cough that turns out to be something life threatening.

Theres a dad on trial right now because he came home found his daughter dieing on the floor from undiagnosed diabetes and instead of calling the police he started praying in earnest first. Truthfully, I fully support a charge of manslaughter. If the DA didn't prosecute, I'd almost find that fine. If they charged him with murder, I would be up in arms.

I'm definitely not going to say that what he did was wrong though in terms of Christianity. This may be a case where he was putting his faith fully in God and he is being persecuted for it... however its very likely that its a case where he is guilty of failing to do anything for himself and relying on God to provide everything which is also not scriptural. Only God can judge this in heaven, and we obviously will judge him on earth.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:18 pm

Kifle

Odd, I don't remember such restrictions being placed on this before other examples were given. I believe I was replying to Sarvis's uncalled-for and overly melodramatic accusation, and while there is a very narrow window for the particular condition you're referring to, the "strawman" stands. If you're arguing about tests that save lives, then you'd best decide which lives you're willing to save and which ones you're not. Is the two week window your cut-off? Or can we extend that to a month? Two months? If it's not diagnosed within a year should they be allowed to die?

If the argument is "you would rather let people die than spend money on them" then do feel free to tell me exactly which ones you think deserve to live. Go ahead, set up specific criteria for which people you think deserve to have their conditions diagnosed in time to save their lives.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:27 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Go ahead, set up specific criteria for which people you think deserve to have their conditions diagnosed in time to save their lives.



Clearly only idolaters.
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:43 pm

Before anybody but Sarvis replies, I'm going to go ahead and retract part of what I said to Kifle. He makes a very good point, and truth be told, I actually support testing like this, in spite of what some may think after this.

However, I was responding to Sarvis, who doesn't have a clue. Seriously, if people on here are going to make an accusation that somebody would rather not spend money than save lives, then those people should be willing to pony up some hard criteria on which lives to save before they allow themselves to talk.
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Sarvis
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Re: Cancelling my health insurance.

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:08 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Before anybody but Sarvis replies, I'm going to go ahead and retract part of what I said to Kifle. He makes a very good point, and truth be told, I actually support testing like this, in spite of what some may think after this.

However, I was responding to Sarvis, who doesn't have a clue.


Even though I was saying the same thing as Kifle but in a different way? Admittedly he said it better, but seriously get your head out of your ass. You're reacting to the name at the top of the post rather than the content.

Seriously, if people on here are going to make an accusation that somebody would rather not spend money than save lives, then those people should be willing to pony up some hard criteria on which lives to save before they allow themselves to talk.


How about "as many as we can?"
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