Taxing fat people for being fat

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:31 am

I was just reading yet another article on why we have to tax soda and I was thinking about all the other things we tax because they are unhealthy including Tobacco and Alcohol. So I had a thought. Why don't we just tax unhealthy people?

I mean I smoke very very occasionally, but I'm relatively healthy. I'm certainly not addicted. Why should I have to pay a tobacco tax because other people are unhealthy due to their consumption of cigarettes? What about alcohol? I consume on occasion, hell even get close to drunk couple times a year. Again not unhealthy nor do I engage in reckless behavior while drunk, its almost always in the safety of my home. Soda is the last one. Soda is being blamed for our high levels of obesity... I'm sure its a contributor but why should this be the vehicle for the tax? What about all those skinny people who drink soda like water? Why should they pay a tax to help pay for fat people? What about all the other ways people get fat (like eating McDonalds and KFC)? Is it valid to tax soda to raise the money to combat obesity that is a result of a number of factors? It seems like me we should tax... FAT people for being fat.

Seriously... if the goal is to reduce obesity... wouldn't the most effective way be just weighing them and taxing them on their weight? Fat people are not going to stop drinking soda because it costs more. poor people are. Why would we take billions of dollars in taxes and use it to indirectly incenticize fat people to get thinner by trying to engage them in health programs, trying to get them to attend welness classes or go to the gym or plan their nutrition better? I'd argue a direct incentive would be far more effective, if I could cut my taxes $1,000 a year by losing 10 pounds, I'd lose 20 pounds. Not everyone is as motivated by money, but ... you'd still have the tax money you need to run all the stupid programs.

All kidding aside, this is another case where because we pay for it, we are going to start regulating it. What should happen is that you get fat, you pay more for insurance and if you can't afford enough care and are unwilling to get healthy, you die. Instead, we have to make government responsible for making us healthy, so that means new taxes and regulations to tell us how to live... to the point of telling you what to drink and eat. My kid came home last year and said i have to eat 2 grains and a fruit and a meat and 8 glasses of water or I'm not being healthy. I stepped back took in his scrawny ass frame and said that is the stupidest thing I have ever heard and you are too if you believe it. for about a week my kid had a complex about eating the right food. seriously stupid, he will never be fat.

Also, who is going to pay this tax? not fat people, poor people. Sales taxes are inherently regressive and this one is the ridiculously so. The alternatives to soda other than water are generally more expensive. Not to mention most have just as many or more calories than soda... apple juice for example.

btw since we are putting taxes on unhealthy shit so we can make everyone healthier... can we take the tax off wine? many studies are showing that a couple glasses of wine a night reduce your risk of heart disease. Its healthy, really!
Desirsar
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:34 pm

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Desirsar » Fri Jul 31, 2009 5:36 am

Barring an actual thyroid disorder (which is over-diagnosed to a degree nearing ADD), it is a matter of two things : calorie intake versus calorie consumption, and the willpower to change one or both of those values. Susan Powter said it best in an infomercial, "You gotta eat. You gotta move. And you gotta breathe." It's just a matter of balancing those three things...

More directly to the topic, a fat tax works better in nations like Japan, with a government run and mandated health insurance system. Because you're a larger burden on the system if you're generally unhealthy, they now charge you more. It'd be hard to set that up without nationalized health care of some sort, but I'd be all for raising the standard deduction on income tax and giving back that increase to people below a certain BMI. You could probably come up with reductions to other government aid programs for not meeting those levels as well.

I will use my two easy anecdotes, a friend's family and my own cousins. The friend's youngest sister, and later his nieces, were all very thin and athletic from dance classes until they reached 11-13 years old, and each one began to put on weight quickly as they began to eat like the mother and oldest sister did, even with the amount of exercise they were still getting. Each one eventually became self conscious enough that they quit the dance classes, but they didn't cut back on the eating, and the result should be obvious. The same thing happened to each of my three cousins in the same family, they all did gymnastics somewhat seriously through junior high, quit for various reasons, and didn't change their eating habits. I can even use myself as an example, I can lose as much as 25 pounds in two weeks by running about 3 miles a day, dividing my calorie intake between six meals (no carbs in any of the last three meals), and reducing that number to 500 under my expected usage. It does tend to be a pain to keep that up, so I eat around the amount of calories I expend, and practice soccer or other sports when I get around to it. I don't look like John Cena, but I can still run a 5.0 40-yard dash, hit a home run and actually sprint around the bases, and probably press you over my head and throw you a few feet (or something of a similar weight and size, I don't go around chucking people everywhere.) If you can be lazy about it and still keep decent shape, there's no reason people wouldn't put in a tiny amount of effort to lower their taxes each year.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:30 pm

Yea i hear you on the thyroid disorder. My mom, sister, wife, mother in law and ex girlfriends mother all on thyroid medication. Why? cuz without it they are tired and get fat... Putting all these drugs into your body can't be good for your liver and kidneys long term.

The thing is, so what if you have a thyroid condition or a genetic predisposition to being fat... you are still responsible for your own health... or at least you should be. If you are born without a leg, it shouldn't be the government's responsibility to get you a leg.... but we make it ours. If you have a retarded kid, why is it the governments job to make them whole?

The government is responsible for way too much stuff that should be a matter of personal choice. If my "pursuit of happyness" involves eating bacon and eggs, watching TV and eating ice cream by the gallon... why do I have to change it to be healthier? It should be none of your damn business. What is more personal than your personal health?
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 3:40 pm

kiryan wrote:Yea i hear you on the thyroid disorder. My mom, sister, wife, mother in law and ex girlfriends mother all on thyroid medication. Why? cuz without it they are tired and get fat... Putting all these drugs into your body can't be good for your liver and kidneys long term.

The thing is, so what if you have a thyroid condition or a genetic predisposition to being fat... you are still responsible for your own health... or at least you should be. If you are born without a leg, it shouldn't be the government's responsibility to get you a leg.... but we make it ours. If you have a retarded kid, why is it the governments job to make them whole?

The government is responsible for way too much stuff that should be a matter of personal choice. If my "pursuit of happyness" involves eating bacon and eggs, watching TV and eating ice cream by the gallon... why do I have to change it to be healthier? It should be none of your damn business. What is more personal than your personal health?


I know very few people who are actually happy about being fat...

Culturally, however, we don't make it easy to maintain a healthy weight. Too much of our food is high fat and high calorie. If you're hungry and need a snack you can always find a chocolate bar in vending machines, at kwik-e-mart, or just about anywhere. A healthy snack, though? Good luck with that. Even if you do find fruit at the local 7-11 it's usually in pretty bad shape.

Then look at bars/restaurants or anything when you go out. How many healthy options are there? Even ordering a wrap or something you can pretty much bet half the ingredients are fried, because that's what everyone likes. Your option is to not go out or not eat while you're out, neither of which work out very well in practice.

Then there's our "work hard and constantly" view of life. If you're not in the office 45+ hours a week you're probably lucky, and it gets increasingly hard to maintain that level of work AND go out to get any exercise.

There's pretty much nothing about our culture that encourages healthy living OTHER than profitable quick-fix diet plans that don't work. And those aren't healthy either...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:01 pm

Yea I don't know anyone who is happy being fat.

I'll disagree with healthy options, they are everywhere now. If you are fat the responsible thing to do is probably to eat a salad or not eat anything when out or go out less.

I'll disagree with work being the reason we don't work out. Men and women are spending 20 and 23 hours on average a week on the computer. They have the time, but they want to play on the computer. Stress apparently makes you more susceptible to gaining weight (like work stress)... I've heard the same about being happily married...

The biggest thing that needs to change is that we need to take responsibility for ourserlves. Not tax people more so we can hire more government workers to create programs and progaganda to change behavior.

If soda is so bad, and we have to tax it... lets not spend 10 trillion dollars over the next 50 years changing the behavior like we did with tobacco. Wasting time in congress debating it. Just make it illegal now and lets save all the wasted money, time, laws and general productivity.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:11 pm

Just because something is a salad doesn't mean it's healthy. You know that, right? Places like McDonald's (or even wegmans) can pack half a day's calories into a salad.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:33 pm

Work used to be the reason I stopped working out. Five years ago, the last thing I wanted to do after working an 8hr day in a factory without air conditioning was go to the weight room and spend even more energy I no longer had. Sure, working in an office wouldn't be so bad, and when I had my good job, I could have worked out... however, again, after being mandated to do something (work), scheduling another hour out of the very few I had to spend with my wife and kids was plain silly. You forget that most families have two working spouses, if they even have a two-parent home. Most times, those schedules are not the same. If life were perfect, 9-5, office job with air conditioning, low stress, sure, I could see the world being in shape; however, this is an imperfect world, and a lot of people have less than desirable positions. When this ceases to be the case, I'll definitely agree with you.

As for the taxes crap, I don't agree with it. I don't agree on any of the "health" taxes they introduce (cigarettes, alcohol, etc.). Like you said, the government has nothing to do with my choices that only affect me. The effects are not even closely related to anything governments should have power over. Next thing you know, the USA will be China and censoring the internet because it is not pretty pink roses and may cause slight depression!
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:39 pm

Kifle wrote:If life were perfect, 9-5, office job with air conditioning, low stress,


I'm pretty sure 9-5 is a thing of the past. Paid lunches are gone, so it's 9-6 or you work through lunch...

But yeah, I was working 40 hours and getting to the gym consistently for 3 months straight. Then I got a project dropped on me that had to be done in a month, and started working 50-60 hour weeks. Guess where I stopped going?

(I also got sick from pushing myself so hard at work... may actually be able to get back to the gym next week finally. )
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Jul 31, 2009 6:47 pm

So once they get lung cancer from smoking for years and lose their jobs and have to go on Medicare and disability ... what are you going to tax again?
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:07 pm

I say we tax skinny people since they obviously have the extra time to spend at the gym rather than busting their asses at work or spending time raising their family :)
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
amena wolfsnarl
Sojourner
Posts: 439
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: grande prairie alberta canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:27 pm

Being healthy costs more. I've recently started to get back into the gym, i work a 60hr+ work week in the oilfield (thats some really tough and ugly work) plus i have a kid to raise on top of that, its important to me to set a good example to her and show her that leading a healthy life is important. I get up every morning at 5 am to go to the gym. I make the time to do this. In the long run i have more energy and am a hell of a lot happier than i was before.

But eatting right costs a lot more than it does to eat the crap out there. You can get a McD's meal for 6 bucks, but to eat healthy for the most part you have to make it your self, so you cut out the fast food, the pop and all the other crap. good food costs more. Your vegetables and fruits cost more, getting the extra lean (or in my case buffalo) beef costs more. On top of that i pay another 50 a month for the gym membership, 70 in supplements and vitamins, so this quickly adds up to a couple hundred a month so i can be healthy.

If anything they should offer tax breaks to those who choose to try to live healthy, they are less of a drain on the medical system, and can be generally said to take less sick days, so are more productive.
Dugmaren tells you 'Welcome to Canada, don't blame us if you're stupid enough to get eaten by the wild life'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:05 pm

amena wolfsnarl wrote:You can get a McD's meal for 6 bucks,


You can get two cheesburgers and a drink for like $3, actually.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Kifle » Fri Jul 31, 2009 9:33 pm

Sarvis wrote:
amena wolfsnarl wrote:You can get a McD's meal for 6 bucks,


You can get two cheesburgers and a drink for like $3, actually.


Or 2 mcdoubles and a water for 2 :) I think the major points here, in relation to the "fat tax," is the amount of time we are economically allowed to "be healthy." In the 50's, one income was enough, the wife cooked and made sure the children were educated and loved; now a two income home is almost manditory for most households, and the "luxury tax" is oppositely fashioned in that the luxury is health rather than convenience. I think it would be interesting to see a graph or some statistics that showed the obesity levels contrasted to the average work week/hrs. of the average household. I think it would also be interesting to see the if there is any corollary between income and obesity. I would wager that income directly contributes, in a major way, to the obesity with a negative correlation.
Fotex group-says 'Behold! penis!'

Kifle puts on his robe and wizard hat.

Thalidyrr tells you 'Yeah, you know, getting it like a jackhammer wears you out.'

Teflor "You can beat a tank with a shovel!!1!1!!one!!1!uno!!"
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:49 am

kifle, see where you are wrong though is because we pay for it... through free healthcare and other entitlements like medicare / medicaid / SSI disability... we have to regulate it.

Its just like the big banks. you know we are going to bail them out if they get into trouble... so do you bail them out and wait to bail them out again or do you bail them out and then work to make sure it doesn't happen again?

If government would stop encurring entitlements (obligations), it wouldn't have to regulate any of this shit. Recent articles say it costs $150 billion extra a year to take care of people directly related to them being fat (higher incident of diabetes ect). How do you ignore that when we all pay for everyone else's healthcare (via shared risk via insurance premiums or medicaid / medicare or whatever healthcare reform entails). You don't, you take control and start telling people what to eat drink how often to exercise, tax mcdonalds and ice cream and whole milk and soda ect...

Your comment about china is exactly what I've been thinking about. we think of them very poorly because they restrict the freedom of their people so much, we might even call it evil that people can't congregate and have freedom of speech... but they do this not just because they want total control... they do this to manage their population for its own good... to take care of them like a herd of animals.... and thats where we are heading. Government has to ensure our financial investments, our retirement, our healthcare, our education, that we buy the most fuel efficient cars, to buy houses, that black people can get firemen jobs... wouldn't it be much much simpler and more efficient to take care of everyone if government controlled everything? I mean.. isn't that what healthcare reform is going to look like? Isn't that where we are headed now with fat taxes on soda? Isn't that what you get when congress starts deciding what executives at companies make?
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:02 am

kiryan wrote:kifle, see where you are wrong though is because we pay for it... through free healthcare and other entitlements like medicare / medicaid / SSI disability... we have to regulate it.


You pay for it even without "entitlements" because insurance premiums go up and hospitals charge more to those who can pay to make up for those who can't.

If government would stop encurring entitlements (obligations), it wouldn't have to regulate any of this shit. Recent articles say it costs $150 billion extra a year to take care of people directly related to them being fat (higher incident of diabetes ect). How do you ignore that when we all pay for everyone else's healthcare (via shared risk via insurance premiums or medicaid / medicare or whatever healthcare reform entails). You don't, you take control and start telling people what to eat drink how often to exercise, tax mcdonalds and ice cream and whole milk and soda ect...


Again, we pay through that without any intervention on the government's behalf.

By the way, why should the government be able to regulate abortion but not fattitude?

Your comment about china is exactly what I've been thinking about. we think of them very poorly because they restrict the freedom of their people so much, we might even call it evil that people can't congregate and have freedom of speech... but they do this not just because they want total control... they do this to manage their population for its own good... to take care of them like a herd of animals.... and thats where we are heading. Government has to ensure our financial investments, our retirement, our healthcare, our education, that we buy the most fuel efficient cars, to buy houses, that black people can get firemen jobs... wouldn't it be much much simpler and more efficient to take care of everyone if government controlled everything? I mean.. isn't that what healthcare reform is going to look like? Isn't that where we are headed now with fat taxes on soda? Isn't that what you get when congress starts deciding what executives at companies make?


No, not really. It's what you get when a paranoid Republican decides a slippery slope argument is actually valid logic...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Dugmaren » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:40 am

This thread officially has an epic amount of FAIL in it.

Get to the damn gym.
Stop going to McDonalds.
Yes dark chocolate is good for you, put the chocolate bar down fatty.

Seriously.
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Todrael » Sat Aug 01, 2009 2:22 pm

Thanks, Dug. Your words are truly inspiring. I've suddenly decided to ensure that I eat healthily and exercise properly rather than allow myself to remain slothful and gluttonous.

Certainly my weight couldn't be a function produced by a complex set of life experiences, genetic predispositions, current socioeconomic standing, or anything like that. No, it's just that I kept stuffing my bloated face full of McDonald's. It was so simple for you to condense my entire life and body into a set of easy to follow rules that will put me on the right track. Why didn't I see it before!

That's the best weight loss plan I've ever heard of. You should sell it on TV or something.

Seriously.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Dugmaren » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:27 pm

Soda doesn't make you fat, excuses make you fat.

It's too bad me acting like a jerk didn't/doesn't inspire you, what would work exactly? I'd love to help, in fact if anyone wants help email me - dugmaren.toril@gmail.com

Dugmaren
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 01, 2009 3:32 pm

Dugmaren wrote:Soda doesn't make you fat, excuses make you fat.

It's too bad me acting like a jerk didn't/doesn't inspire you, what would work exactly? I'd love to help, in fact if anyone wants help email me - dugmaren.toril@gmail.com

Dugmaren


I've definitely noticed more weight loss when not drinking soda (diet OR regular) so I'm pretty sure you're full of shit.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Todrael » Sat Aug 01, 2009 4:04 pm

Dugmaren wrote:what would work exactly? I'd love to help

Can you give life intrinsic purpose?
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Dugmaren » Sat Aug 01, 2009 5:48 pm

Todrael you know being overweight messes up your hormones and thus your emotions. Getting in shape does give you a little bit of that coveted intrinsic purpose. And Sarvis you know exactly what I was saying, I'm not arguing some tangent with you.

Sorry to derail, offer stands.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 01, 2009 6:47 pm

Dugmaren wrote:Todrael you know being overweight messes up your hormones and thus your emotions. Getting in shape does give you a little bit of that coveted intrinsic purpose. And Sarvis you know exactly what I was saying, I'm not arguing some tangent with you.

Sorry to derail, offer stands.


Yes, you mean life is so simple that there's no reason anyone should ever be fat. You are wrong. Life is complex, and what you want to term excuses many of us call "having shit to do." Overly simplistic advice doesn't help, it just makes people think they should feel bad for having gained some weight in a society where the average restaurant meal is an entire day's calories.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
amena wolfsnarl
Sojourner
Posts: 439
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: grande prairie alberta canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sat Aug 01, 2009 7:30 pm

The way i look at it now is its not a choice to be fat, its a choice to be skinny. Its easy to allow yourself to eat the convienent meals and go out to the fast food restaurants, they are everywhere. The choice is to eat right, exercise when you can. I know everyones got shit to do, hell im a single dad raising my daughter on my own work 60+ hrs a week but i still make time to work out, and i dont let that time interfer with my daughter either, i feel bad enough working as much as i do, but at the moment its what i gotta do. It would be really easy for me to sleep in for that extra hour, but instead i make the effort, i choose to try to be skinny (its a work in progress). THe physical and mental benefits are more than worth it to me.

Obesity is starting to become the norm here in north america, working out and being skinny is not. we can blame it on busy schedules, too much work or glandular disorders, ultimately we are responsible for our own physical health, its a choice that people make every time they order a meal.
Dugmaren tells you 'Welcome to Canada, don't blame us if you're stupid enough to get eaten by the wild life'
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:33 pm

sorry i was thinking that sarvis, that we pay for it through insurance premiums regardless of whether we nationalize healthcare.

By the way, why should the government be able to regulate abortion but not fattitude?

its not quite the smae thing to me. abortion is killing someone else, and fatititus is something you do to yourself. i'm in general against government involvemnt in private life, but that doesn't mean im ok with murder being legal...
Botef
Sojourner
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Eastern Washington
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Botef » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:39 pm

Completely off topic but I'm curious what your opinion is on Capital Punishment kiryan.
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
// Post Count +1
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Dugmaren » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:40 pm

It is simple. But it's hard as hell. There are a LOT of little steps you're going to have to take to get from A to B, and they're going to involve sacrifice, pain, frustration, jealousy, stress, and all the other good things in life. But I guarantee each step will be worth it.

You made a choice to meet girls and I have all the respect in the world for you on that, don't ever give up. It's exactly the same principle, make the choice to take control of your health. If you want to justify how life is hard and you don't have enough money and zomg's it takes more then 3mins a day to get a "washboard abs" fine.. just don't expect me to agree with you or pat you on the back and tell you it's ok.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Sat Aug 01, 2009 8:57 pm

Tod are you fat?

I'm not a big fan of capital punishment or war. however, you are definitely allowed to engage in war and kill people as a soldier. On capital punishment, I'd vote no... There was some interesting analysis done a few years ago by some brainy economists that attempted to ferret out the effect of capital punishment on reducing crime. It came up with something like there would be 13 more murders per 100k people without capital punishment. I do think we treat prisoners in jail too well and give them too many rights in general.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:37 pm

Dugmaren wrote:It is simple. But it's hard as hell. There are a LOT of little steps you're going to have to take to get from A to B, and they're going to involve sacrifice, pain, frustration, jealousy, stress, and all the other good things in life. But I guarantee each step will be worth it.

You made a choice to meet girls and I have all the respect in the world for you on that, don't ever give up. It's exactly the same principle, make the choice to take control of your health. If you want to justify how life is hard and you don't have enough money and zomg's it takes more then 3mins a day to get a "washboard abs" fine.. just don't expect me to agree with you or pat you on the back and tell you it's ok.


Hey, don't get me wrong. I've been losing weight (well, not in the last couple months but I'm down 40lbs since about 2 years ago.) I just don't think it's a simple as you're trying to portray it. It's NOT simple and it's NOT easy. It's pretty difficult all around to do this. "Go to the damn gym and stop going to mcdonald's" doesn't quite cut it. (I don't, in fact, eat at McDonald's or any other fast food restaurant other than subway. )
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Desirsar
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:34 pm

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Desirsar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 9:53 am

This forum software needs multi-quoting...

kiryan wrote:Yea I don't know anyone who is happy being fat.


Never heard anyone say how awesome it is that they don't fit into baseball stadium, movie theater, or airplane seats, no.

I'll disagree with healthy options, they are everywhere now. If you are fat the responsible thing to do is probably to eat a salad or not eat anything when out or go out less.

I'll disagree with work being the reason we don't work out. Men and women are spending 20 and 23 hours on average a week on the computer. They have the time, but they want to play on the computer. Stress apparently makes you more susceptible to gaining weight (like work stress)... I've heard the same about being happily married...

The biggest thing that needs to change is that we need to take responsibility for ourserlves. Not tax people more so we can hire more government workers to create programs and progaganda to change behavior.

If soda is so bad, and we have to tax it... lets not spend 10 trillion dollars over the next 50 years changing the behavior like we did with tobacco. Wasting time in congress debating it. Just make it illegal now and lets save all the wasted money, time, laws and general productivity.


Political correctness is part of the problem. People go into protest mode and start wanting to burn you and your (distant) family at the stake if you make comments against overweight people when making anything stronger than a "clinical" sounding news report about obesity. I don't fault at all a culture or society that demonizes traits you can change. Permanent things that are not chosen, like race, sex, sexual orientation, etc, are bad targets in this sense. If someone wants to be racist, I'm fine with that - but the society as a whole making them look stupid and forcing them into poverty, obscurity, or any other negative condition short of committing crimes against them should be all but encouraged. I think the same for people who choose not to be healthy in any manner - overweight, smokers, excessive drinkers, or anything else. They're making a poor choice, and shouldn't get upset that other people point it out.

Ashiwi wrote:So once they get lung cancer from smoking for years and lose their jobs and have to go on Medicare and disability ... what are you going to tax again?


At least they'll have contributed more toward their own cost to the taxpayers when that happens...

amena wolfsnarl wrote:Being healthy costs more. I've recently started to get back into the gym, i work a 60hr+ work week in the oilfield (thats some really tough and ugly work) plus i have a kid to raise on top of that, its important to me to set a good example to her and show her that leading a healthy life is important. I get up every morning at 5 am to go to the gym. I make the time to do this. In the long run i have more energy and am a hell of a lot happier than i was before.

But eatting right costs a lot more than it does to eat the crap out there. You can get a McD's meal for 6 bucks, but to eat healthy for the most part you have to make it your self, so you cut out the fast food, the pop and all the other crap. good food costs more. Your vegetables and fruits cost more, getting the extra lean (or in my case buffalo) beef costs more. On top of that i pay another 50 a month for the gym membership, 70 in supplements and vitamins, so this quickly adds up to a couple hundred a month so i can be healthy.

If anything they should offer tax breaks to those who choose to try to live healthy, they are less of a drain on the medical system, and can be generally said to take less sick days, so are more productive.
kiryan wrote:kifle, see where you are wrong though is because we pay for it... through free healthcare and other entitlements like medicare / medicaid / SSI disability... we have to regulate it.

Its just like the big banks. you know we are going to bail them out if they get into trouble... so do you bail them out and wait to bail them out again or do you bail them out and then work to make sure it doesn't happen again?

If government would stop encurring entitlements (obligations), it wouldn't have to regulate any of this shit. Recent articles say it costs $150 billion extra a year to take care of people directly related to them being fat (higher incident of diabetes ect). How do you ignore that when we all pay for everyone else's healthcare (via shared risk via insurance premiums or medicaid / medicare or whatever healthcare reform entails). You don't, you take control and start telling people what to eat drink how often to exercise, tax mcdonalds and ice cream and whole milk and soda ect...

Your comment about china is exactly what I've been thinking about. we think of them very poorly because they restrict the freedom of their people so much, we might even call it evil that people can't congregate and have freedom of speech... but they do this not just because they want total control... they do this to manage their population for its own good... to take care of them like a herd of animals.... and thats where we are heading. Government has to ensure our financial investments, our retirement, our healthcare, our education, that we buy the most fuel efficient cars, to buy houses, that black people can get firemen jobs... wouldn't it be much much simpler and more efficient to take care of everyone if government controlled everything? I mean.. isn't that what healthcare reform is going to look like? Isn't that where we are headed now with fat taxes on soda? Isn't that what you get when congress starts deciding what executives at companies make?


Paying out less in general is good. We could take in more by taxing unhealthy foods excessively like we do with cigarettes, and for the same reason - a lot of people will keep buying it in spite of the tax. If you tax it enough, however, healthy foods may become more convenient or more profitable for convenience stores, fast food restaurants, and anywhere else to sell.

Dugmaren wrote:This thread officially has an epic amount of FAIL in it.

Get to the damn gym.
Stop going to McDonalds.
Yes dark chocolate is good for you, put the chocolate bar down fatty.

Seriously.


Srsly. Actually, going to McDonald's is not the problem. It's eating 2500 calories per meal two or more times a day, and then not burning that many calorie in the same period. Many body builders and professional athletes eat 8000-10000 calories a day, just copy their workouts and you will probably need to eat more than you have stomach capacity for initially... Of course, the "fat tax" won't be targeting people because they don't look like John Cena, they're looking for the people in between "I can keep up with my kids enough to help with their baseball team's practices" and "What's a baseball? Can I eat it?"

Todrael wrote:Thanks, Dug. Your words are truly inspiring. I've suddenly decided to ensure that I eat healthily and exercise properly rather than allow myself to remain slothful and gluttonous.

Certainly my weight couldn't be a function produced by a complex set of life experiences, genetic predispositions, current socioeconomic standing, or anything like that. No, it's just that I kept stuffing my bloated face full of McDonald's. It was so simple for you to condense my entire life and body into a set of easy to follow rules that will put me on the right track. Why didn't I see it before!

That's the best weight loss plan I've ever heard of. You should sell it on TV or something.

Seriously.


Everyone's weight is determined by those set of conditions. The problem is that too much blame are falsely going on the conditions that can't be changed to keep from admitting a lack of effort toward those that can. As I say in posts above, too many people say "I'm fat because my parents were fat." thinking it's genetic. It's not an untrue statement, but it's true because it's learned, not inherited.

Dugmaren wrote:Soda doesn't make you fat, excuses make you fat.

It's too bad me acting like a jerk didn't/doesn't inspire you, what would work exactly? I'd love to help, in fact if anyone wants help email me - dugmaren.toril@gmail.com

Dugmaren


Soda can make you fat, just work out enough to cover all your calories other than your soda consumption and BAM. Just depends on how you do your math...

Sarvis wrote:I've definitely noticed more weight loss when not drinking soda (diet OR regular) so I'm pretty sure you're full of shit.


You could just as easily cut back something else and keep the soda, although it's easier to cut the calories that are already dissolved in water and absorbed more easily because of it.

amena wolfsnarl wrote:The way i look at it now is its not a choice to be fat, its a choice to be skinny. Its easy to allow yourself to eat the convienent meals and go out to the fast food restaurants, they are everywhere. The choice is to eat right, exercise when you can. I know everyones got shit to do, hell im a single dad raising my daughter on my own work 60+ hrs a week but i still make time to work out, and i dont let that time interfer with my daughter either, i feel bad enough working as much as i do, but at the moment its what i gotta do. It would be really easy for me to sleep in for that extra hour, but instead i make the effort, i choose to try to be skinny (its a work in progress). THe physical and mental benefits are more than worth it to me.


You always have to choose to eat. If we're using "easier", it's "easier" to not bother moving any food from where it is currently to your mouth at all. If we assume people are going to eat, however, all are definitely choices - you choose to eat too little, correctly, or too much.

Obesity is starting to become the norm here in north america, working out and being skinny is not. we can blame it on busy schedules, too much work or glandular disorders, ultimately we are responsible for our own physical health, its a choice that people make every time they order a meal.


I will always blame it on a lack of willpower, and it's the reason some nation will eventually decide to invade or some group will eventually decide to start a revolution, and end up winning. People will not resist as long as they can keep staring at their reality TV shows and eating processed, convenient foods in inappropriate quantity.

Sarvis wrote:
Dugmaren wrote:It is simple. But it's hard as hell. There are a LOT of little steps you're going to have to take to get from A to B, and they're going to involve sacrifice, pain, frustration, jealousy, stress, and all the other good things in life. But I guarantee each step will be worth it.

You made a choice to meet girls and I have all the respect in the world for you on that, don't ever give up. It's exactly the same principle, make the choice to take control of your health. If you want to justify how life is hard and you don't have enough money and zomg's it takes more then 3mins a day to get a "washboard abs" fine.. just don't expect me to agree with you or pat you on the back and tell you it's ok.


Hey, don't get me wrong. I've been losing weight (well, not in the last couple months but I'm down 40lbs since about 2 years ago.) I just don't think it's a simple as you're trying to portray it. It's NOT simple and it's NOT easy. It's pretty difficult all around to do this. "Go to the damn gym and stop going to mcdonald's" doesn't quite cut it. (I don't, in fact, eat at McDonald's or any other fast food restaurant other than subway. )


I point out above how simple and easy it is. Calculate your calorie usage, eat less than that number, and BAM, lose weight. Spreading it across six meals a day takes a little extra time. The tough part is getting a proper distribution of nutrients in each of those meals and not having it be too expensive. In my own plan that worked extremely well, I pretty much only ate peanut butter toast, various fruits and vegetables, a bit of chicken, and 18 whole eggs a day. (17, actually, but the cartons were 18, so...) I think I lost my willpower to continue when I realized how sick of boiled eggs I was becoming. (If that sounds like a lot of cholesterol, every trainer I ran my meal plan through agreed with it as long as I kept up the training routine...) The plan became too expensive to keep up even with the next cheapest source of the proteins I got from the eggs, and that was canned tuna.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:21 am

Desirsar wrote:
Sarvis wrote:I've definitely noticed more weight loss when not drinking soda (diet OR regular) so I'm pretty sure you're full of shit.


You could just as easily cut back something else and keep the soda, although it's easier to cut the calories that are already dissolved in water and absorbed more easily because of it.


Read ALL the words. Pretty hard to cut back on something else to replace a 0 calorie drink.

I point out above how simple and easy it is.


Yes, so simple that, below, you admit you couldn't keep up with the plan!

Calculate your calorie usage, eat less than that number, and BAM, lose weight. Spreading it across six meals a day takes a little extra time. The tough part is getting a proper distribution of nutrients in each of those meals and not having it be too expensive. In my own plan that worked extremely well, I pretty much only ate peanut butter toast, various fruits and vegetables, a bit of chicken, and 18 whole eggs a day. (17, actually, but the cartons were 18, so...) I think I lost my willpower to continue when I realized how sick of boiled eggs I was becoming. (If that sounds like a lot of cholesterol, every trainer I ran my meal plan through agreed with it as long as I kept up the training routine...) The plan became too expensive to keep up even with the next cheapest source of the proteins I got from the eggs, and that was canned tuna.



Too damn expensive? You mean eating less healthy (not that your diet sounded particularly healthy) is cheaper than trying to eat right? Amazing! It's almost exactly like what we said earlier!

You can blame willpower all you want, but the simple fact is that after working a 13 hour day there's not a chance of me spending an hour to cook a healthy meal. If you want anything healthy it's Wegmans for a salad or Subway for a healthy sub.

Eventually you get as sick of those as you were of boiled eggs (1 a day for breakfast, btw.)
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Desirsar
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:34 pm

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Desirsar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:09 pm

Speaking just to the expense of the food - I've actually found that frozen, non-microwaveable pizzas tend to have the highest calorie content per cost. If you want something filling, however, you'd better look to bags of frozen potato-anything. Not exactly the two optimal choices there either. Maybe all it will take is one company mass producing prepacked healthy foods on the scale of the unhealthy foods so the prices come down that makes them competitive.

Of course, you could have Jack LaLanne's method, and be able to swim distances while towing boats when you're 90 years old... "If man made it, don't eat it. If it tastes good, spit it out." Then you're really looking to spend money - manufactured being cheaper than organic, and things that don't taste good don't get much shelf space...

Sarvis wrote:
Desirsar wrote:I point out above how simple and easy it is.


Yes, so simple that, below, you admit you couldn't keep up with the plan!


It was simple. It was the fact that making it tolerable for any length of time meant spending more money to me than it was worth. I don't find it much different than deciding a video game isn't worth its price at $60, and picking it up in a year when it drops to $20. Also, we're talking about the difference of me being able to sprint 40 yards in half a second a less and actually looking like I can bend you into a pretzel, as opposed to simply sprinting "fast enough" and "just" being able to bend you into a pretzel. Even without my plan, I stay in relatively good shape because I'm not running around eating more than I burn off every day (well, until the person's weight goes up so their calorie usage just to move around the same amount equalizes with what they are eating.)
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:46 am

::cough::

I'm sure everybody here who has met me or seen pictures of me is well aware of the fact that I am substantially overweight. On the average I consume less than 2000 calories per day, and more often than not I take in fewer than 1500 per day. I was out of the gym for a little bit, but I'm back up to an hour and a half three to four times a week with forty five minutes of cardio each time and will be happier when I get back to my two hours a day. I consume no soda, no coffee, no sugar, almost no fried foods, eat fruits and veggies, and typically drink well over seventy ounces of water a day. I tend to know everything that goes into my body. Yes, on occasion I do let myself eat all the wrong foods, but it's never to the point where it would undo what I do every other day of the week, and I can't remember the last time I let myself eat more calories than anybody else would eat to maintain the weight I'm at.

I don't work out to lose weight. I work out in order to not gain weight. If I consumed enough calories to maintain my body's "ideal weight" and did fifteen to thirty minutes of cardio a day I would still gain weight. It's not always a case of "just put the chocolate bar down, fatty."

"Calculate your calorie usage, eat less than that number, and BAM, lose weight. " Not always that easy. Yes, for your average person it is, but is there any reason to be mean to the rest?

Most people who don't have a problem with their weight seem to think it's just that easy for everybody. I'm not trying to get sympathy or change anybody's mind, but I seriously hope you guys don't treat total strangers with that kind of disdain and mean-spiritedness when you don't even know the details.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Corth » Mon Aug 03, 2009 1:57 am

What a shocker. You are all pretty much right. Some come up with excuses (socioeconomic standing?!) for being overweight when they just simply need to consume less calories and burn more of them off. Others don't have much of a choice due to genetic predisposition. Some people are lucky enough to eat complete crap and never seem to gain any substantial weight. They don't seem to recognize that a lot of other people really struggle at it. Almost every post holds a bit of truth in it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:28 am

Ashiwi wrote:On the average I consume less than 2000 calories per day, and more often than not I take in fewer than 1500 per day.


I'd imagine you've heard this, but just in case... most sites say eating too few calories stunts your ability to lose weight. Everyone I've talked to (personal trainer, other dieters) has said 1500 is pretty much the absolute minimum anyone should ever eat because less makes your body think you're starving and it will start trying to horde calories. (Which, I theorize, especially hurts on the higher calorie days.)

I track most of the stuff I eat (and sometimes my exercise) on SparkPeople and have seen relatively good results that way (when I'm actually able to keep up with logging everything.) If you put in your weight, age, and amount of time you exercise and such they recommend a calorie range to be within in order to lose weight.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Todrael
Sojourner
Posts: 1454
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Todrael » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:41 am

-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Ashiwi » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:49 am

Yup, I've heard it. I've heard it all. My doctor's last advice to me on the subject was, and I quote, "You should probably give up trying to lose weight, because considering the medication you take and your condition it's just not likely to happen, and you're just frustrating yourself."

Don't anybody talk smack about my doctor, either. She knows what I put myself through over my weight. There's a reason I eat the way I do, and I try to make sure I stay above the 1200 calorie a day mark.

That's all beside the point, though. There's no way for anybody on this forum to look at any one person and tell by their appearance why they are the way they are, so there's no reason for anybody to be condescending about it.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Desirsar
Sojourner
Posts: 40
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2009 8:34 pm

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Desirsar » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:20 am

Ashiwi wrote:I'm sure everybody here who has met me or seen pictures of me is well aware of the fact that I am substantially overweight. On the average I consume less than 2000 calories per day, and more often than not I take in fewer than 1500 per day. I was out of the gym for a little bit, but I'm back up to an hour and a half three to four times a week with forty five minutes of cardio each time and will be happier when I get back to my two hours a day. I consume no soda, no coffee, no sugar, almost no fried foods, eat fruits and veggies, and typically drink well over seventy ounces of water a day. I tend to know everything that goes into my body. Yes, on occasion I do let myself eat all the wrong foods, but it's never to the point where it would undo what I do every other day of the week, and I can't remember the last time I let myself eat more calories than anybody else would eat to maintain the weight I'm at.


I'm the first person to believe the possibility that your lungs are doing this - while maintaining a steady diet, water intake, and exercise, I can go up or down as much as 10 pounds in a single day. (In fact, this usually happens overnight, which leads me to believe it is entirely absorption or loss of water through respiration.)

Barring that possibility, though... what do you do in your hour and a half in the gym? Walk on a treadmill for 90 minutes or hit the weight room so hard you'd make Randy Savage cry just watching you? (To quote the character he voiced in King of the Hill, "No agony, no brag-ony!") Did they ever have you try to put on an insane amount of muscle that would generally increase metabolism and consume more calories, and then when the fat was lost, switch to only cardio and reduce protein intake to lose the muscle mass? (Assuming you'd want to lose the muscle mass afterward for the net result of "smaller". If I could stay away from video games long enough to lift weights two hours a day...)
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:05 pm

I've read a few things about the taking in too few calories putting your body into hibernation mode where it converts more of it to fat to survive a period of time where you are not getting your "normal" intake of food. I'm sure its very valid for some people. SOME PEOPLE (not you).

There was a study once that went out and stated that if you don't sleep between the hours of 1am and 3am you never entered REM sleep and therefore wouldn't get rested. Except if you had quasi permanently altered your schedule (like working graveyard) you could enter REM sleep at whatever would be normal for your habits. The point is that things become normal for your body and your body reacts. If you have a normal sleep schedule then switch to graveyard, you're probably not getting rested those first few weeks... but eventually your body adjusts and you rest.

Most of us, maybe all of us, need to consume less calories and improve our calorie burning activities (whether its walking or exercising or gardening). Its probably not a good idea to go from 2500 calories a day to 1250 overnight, but steadily ratchet it down over a year until you hit 1250 (or whatever is appropriate for your activity level) and I'm quite sure you will be fine. If you consume less calories than you expend on a daily basis over a prologned period of time, you will lose fat. Its unavoidable. You might lose muscle at first, but eventually you will lose fat.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:14 pm

kiryan wrote:I've read a few things about the taking in too few calories putting your body into hibernation mode where it converts more of it to fat to survive a period of time where you are not getting your "normal" intake of food. I'm sure its very valid for some people. SOME PEOPLE (not you).


Umm, no. That's true for everybody.

but steadily ratchet it down over a year until you hit 1250 (or whatever is appropriate for your activity level) and I'm quite sure you will be fine. If you consume less calories than you expend on a daily basis over a prologned period of time, you will lose fat. Its unavoidable. You might lose muscle at first, but eventually you will lose fat.


1250 is the amount of calories the average person burns AT REST. This is the amount of energy your body requires to maintain itself. (Actually, I think that's the amount for women... for men it's slightly higher, closer to 1500.)

If you are only eating 1200 calories and burn energy doing any kind of exercise, you are now damaging your body. Congratulations!
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Dugmaren
Staff Member - Areas
Posts: 554
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Vancouver, Canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Dugmaren » Mon Aug 03, 2009 5:12 pm

You see where this is going. I'm not even going to bring up swing-shifts... if you've ever had to experience that. Notice how most people here, save for that one guy, has office jobs who are "healthy." I'm betting most work 8hr shifts too. Does Dug have kids?


Actually I work swing shifts, 50-90 hours a week 1/2 of which is manual labour outside. Jan-Feb it was -30c to -40c degrees out and lately it's been +36.5c (That'd be -40f to +100f). I still train. If I had kids I'd choose time with them instead of training, but I would still buy healthy groceries and cook all my meals because it's important to me.

Bottom line everyone can do better if they want to. I could do better but I'm happy with the amount of time & money I'm already investing. A couple people took me up on my offer to help, maybe someone will read this and start taking the stairs instead of the elevator.. hell if Dug can do it why can't you? I'm not trying to bring anyone down, I just think good friends give you a kick in the butt now 'n then instead of coddling you.

Dugmaren
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:33 pm

Dugmaren wrote:A couple people took me up on my offer to help, maybe someone will read this and start taking the stairs instead of the elevator..


My office only has a first floor. :P
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 6:54 pm

Look, I don't know what the exact # of calories is, but I know if you are fat, you are eating too many. period.

And if you mean damage to your body by burning fat then ok. Thats what fat is for, to supply your body with energy when you aren't getting enough food. Depending on how large and how quickly you cut your caloric intake depends on how much and how long it goes after muscle for the short term needs, but eventually it will switch to burning fat... that is what fat is for.

I'm about 40 pounds heavier than what it would take to be skinny. I don't blame McDonalds and Mountain Dew or work. When I eat, I eat a lot because it tastes good whether its McDonalds or steak and baked potatos with half a cup of sour cream or a buffet on a cruise. I drink a lot of soda because it tastes good not because I need it to stay awake because "I'm working so hard". What I hate is being sweaty and tired, so I laze around in bed and I don't engage in strenuous activities. I used to play volleyball and tennis pretty regularly until I seriously destroyed my ankle playing vb, I don't blame my ankle for not playing sports anymore even though I can't compete at the level I used to. These are all choices I am making that is resulting in me being overweight not excuses about how I can't be more healthy.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:18 pm

kiryan wrote:Look, I don't know what the exact # of calories is, but I know if you are fat, you are eating too many. period.

And if you mean damage to your body by burning fat then ok.


No, I mean your body will start cannibalizing itself to obtain the calories/nutrients you should be eating.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 7:25 pm

kiryan wrote:I'm about 40 pounds heavier than what it would take to be skinny. I don't blame McDonalds and Mountain Dew or work. When I eat, I eat a lot because it tastes good whether its McDonalds or steak and baked potatos with half a cup of sour cream or a buffet on a cruise. I drink a lot of soda because it tastes good not because I need it to stay awake because "I'm working so hard". What I hate is being sweaty and tired, so I laze around in bed and I don't engage in strenuous activities. I used to play volleyball and tennis pretty regularly until I seriously destroyed my ankle playing vb, I don't blame my ankle for not playing sports anymore even though I can't compete at the level I used to. These are all choices I am making that is resulting in me being overweight not excuses about how I can't be more healthy.


Look, you're missing the point. Especially with your ankle. Your ankle is an extra obstacle to weight loss. You have an obstacle that Ambar doesn't, therefore it is harder for you to lose weight.

It's not an excuse, it's a reality. You simply cannot exercise at the level you used to. You can overcome that obstacle, but it is another obstacle that other people do not have to deal with.

Tod has long work days and kids, those are both obstacles.

I have long work days and frequently get sick with bronchitis, and my newly found social life is eating up even more of my time. These are yet another set of obstacles.

What you're saying is that obstacles don't count for anything, it's as simple as "eat less, workout more."

You are wrong. Every obstacle makes it harder for a person to do those things. Not impossible, but harder.

Just being in America is an obstacle, because it can be so difficult to find healthy food. There isn't nearly as much of an obesity problem in European countries. This is not because Europeans are magically more energetic, it's because their cultural eating patterns are more conducive to healthy living. They have fewer obstacles than Americans do.

You can view everything in black and white if you want, but it will seldom help you actually get anywhere.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:41 pm

You know I expect to have this conversation with a kid not an adult. Excuses MAY be valid reasons, but they are still excuses as long as you control them. You are responsible for your own health (or at least you should be). You are responsible for what you eat and how much you exercise. You can come up with all the obstacles and reasons in the world why you can't do something, but with sufficient motivation (usually an ass whupping in the case of my kids) you will get it done.

and what exactly is fat for if its not to subsidize your bodies energy needs when it is not taking in enough calories to meet the requirements? It is absolutely true that your body will cannibalize muscle and other energy sources to meet urgent needs (like if you go from 2500 to 1250 in a day or week), but long term it will consume the fat. How else do you lose weight if your body just cannibalizes itself?
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Pril » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:46 pm

Best way to loose weight that my friends have found was to cook their own meals and lunches at home. And I don't mean toss Ramen or premade dinners into the microwave. I mean cook from scratch. This may not work or be enough for everyone but it goes a LONG way.

Also this will cut down on the amount of money you spend.
The best of WTF statments of '06
--------------------------------------------------------
Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'
Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'
Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:48 pm

Pril wrote:Best way to loose weight that my friends have found was to cook their own meals and lunches at home. And I don't mean toss Ramen or premade dinners into the microwave. I mean cook from scratch. This may not work or be enough for everyone but it goes a LONG way.

Also this will cut down on the amount of money you spend.


Actually, I lost 50lbs one summer subsisting largely on things like ramen and those lipton noodle bags, with the occasional PB&J for fruits/vegetables.

Cooking _actual_ food for myself seems to be quite a bit more expensive, unless I keep it very basic such as Risi Bisi or variations on lentil soup...
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 8:53 pm

kiryan wrote:You know I expect to have this conversation with a kid not an adult. Excuses MAY be valid reasons, but they are still excuses as long as you control them. You are responsible for your own health (or at least you should be). You are responsible for what you eat and how much you exercise. You can come up with all the obstacles and reasons in the world why you can't do something, but with sufficient motivation (usually an ass whupping in the case of my kids) you will get it done.


You know, you're pretty much a lost cause as far as logic or understanding goes. I reiterate that I have lost 40lbs over the last couple years. Not a stellar amount, but I'm clearly doing a better job than you are despite your "understanding" and "maturity" about the nature of excuses. I have obstacles I'm overcoming. You, however, are intent on judging everyone who has a bigger belt than you and putting them down.

Let's remember what Ash said not more than a few posts ago:

"That's all beside the point, though. There's no way for anybody on this forum to look at any one person and tell by their appearance why they are the way they are, so there's no reason for anybody to be condescending about it."

So why, exactly, are you spouting crap about explaining things to kids when you're the one being an immature prick?

It is absolutely true that your body will cannibalize muscle and other energy sources to meet urgent needs


Yes, yes it is. You will be less healthy no matter how much fat burns. You are recommending people injure themselves to meet your warped ideals.

Very Christian attitude, really.
<a href="http://www.code-haven.com">Code Haven</a> - For all your programming needs.

I detest what you write, but I would give my life to make it possible for you to continue to write. - Some Guy Who Paraphrased Voltaire
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby Pril » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:01 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Pril wrote:Best way to loose weight that my friends have found was to cook their own meals and lunches at home. And I don't mean toss Ramen or premade dinners into the microwave. I mean cook from scratch. This may not work or be enough for everyone but it goes a LONG way.

Also this will cut down on the amount of money you spend.


Actually, I lost 50lbs one summer subsisting largely on things like ramen and those lipton noodle bags, with the occasional PB&J for fruits/vegetables.

Cooking _actual_ food for myself seems to be quite a bit more expensive, unless I keep it very basic such as Risi Bisi or variations on lentil soup...


Depends on what you consider _actual_ food. If by actual food you mean a 20oz filet mignon every day for dinner then yes it will be expensive. If you make a vegtable soup, with rice, and chicken. Then it ends up being cheaper and better for you.

And living off of ramen and lipton noodle bags is basically like eating salt with a tablespoon.
The best of WTF statments of '06

--------------------------------------------------------

Danila group-says 'afk, machine gun in backyard started shooting cats'

Danila group-says 'afk a sec, 3 horned monkeys trying to steal hose'

Danila group-says 'afk, koala bear trying to mount my car'
amena wolfsnarl
Sojourner
Posts: 439
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: grande prairie alberta canada

Re: Taxing fat people for being fat

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:02 pm

The best and longest lasting way to lose weight imo is to build your muscles, especially your core muscle groups, this will help your body to better use the calories that you consume. running on a treadmill dont do much for you especially if thats all you been doin for the last couple months.

Cooking your own food from scratch is the only way to really be health concious. Prepackaged, premade foods are packed with all kinds of nasty shit that your body doesnt need.
I dont know how you would survive on ramen for a summer, hell i cant even eat it for a meal, but if you can actually lose weight like that good on yah, knowing how the body works i dont see how, and thats a lot of weight to drop in the course of 3 months, I dont think its that healthy to drop that much that quickly.

And on a side note BMI is a crock of shit, i know it was mentioned in here earlier, Evander holyfield in his prime was classified as morbidly obese on the Body Mass Index. according to the BMI im supposed to weigh 186 at 6'0" I weigh 236 atm I would have to chop off a leg to weigh that much, i have some weight to lose still but at the most i figure i would be lucky to drop to 200, I'm just not built to be a scrawny twig boy.

Just out of curiousity Dug what kind of program do you use for your training, and what kind of job do you work?
Dugmaren tells you 'Welcome to Canada, don't blame us if you're stupid enough to get eaten by the wild life'

Return to “T2 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests