wah f*king wah

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wah f*king wah

Postby kiryan » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:04 am

They are talking about another 13 week extension to unemployment benefits... we are already at 79 weeks in some cases. If you can't get your shit together in 79 weeks, you have made some serious mistakes.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32254520/ns ... york_times

For many desperate job seekers, any extension will seem a blessing. Pamela C. Lampley of Dillon, S.C., said she sat outside the post office last month and cried because “it was the first Wednesday in quite some time that I’ve gone to the mailbox and left without an unemployment check.” The jobless rate in her state is 12.1 percent.

Ms. Lampley, 40, who is married with three children, lost her job as a human resources officer in January 2008 and had been receiving $351 a week, which covered the groceries and gas. Even so, she and her husband, who still has work as a machinist, were sinking into debt. Now, still poorer, she feels devastated because they cannot buy their son a laptop to take to college and she cannot give her 9-year-old son money for the movies.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:13 am

May as well extend it to 150 weeks. Or fuckit, 250.
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Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 5:56 am

Or we can let people starve, get further into the debt that caused this problem in the first place and just hope they don't become violent.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:25 am

the_new_york_times wrote:Now, still poorer, she feels devastated because they cannot buy their son a laptop to take to college and she cannot give her 9-year-old son money for the movies.


the_new_york_times wrote:She was unable to afford summer camp and baseball activities for her children, despite scrimping on basics.


Basics, you know, like laptops, movies, and baseball camp. Heh.

the_new_york_times wrote:Mr. Crouse is 72 and receives Social Security but said that was not enough to live on. The $190 a month he has received in unemployment benefits enabled him and his wife to hang on to the house they bought 15 years ago, he said.


Can someone explain to me why a 72 year old man is receiving unemployment? Perhaps I didn't understand this part well, or perhaps I don't understand how unemployment benefits work. I wish they would have written how much the house they bought 15 years ago cost them.

the_new_york_times wrote:Ms. Lampley, 40, who is married with three children, lost her job as a human resources officer in January 2008 and had been receiving $351 a week, which covered the groceries and gas. Even so, she and her husband, who still has work as a machinist, were sinking into debt.


My wife brings in around that much money every two weeks. We also have three children, and that money more than covers our gas and groceries. Although I'm not 100% sure, I'm wondering if the machinist makes the same/more money than I do. And again, the article did not mention how much they had spent on their home, what their monthly budget was, etc.


Hey, I completely understand people needing unemployment benefits in dire cases to help maintain their family until they can find a new job. Honest. But, 52 weeks = a year. This is going into almost 2 years. Uh...
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 6:31 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Can someone explain to me why a 72 year old man is receiving unemployment? Perhaps I didn't understand this part well, or perhaps I don't understand how unemployment benefits work. I wish they would have written how much the house they bought 15 years ago cost them.


My guess is he never made/saved enough to retire? If he was still working and got fired, why wouldn't he get unemployment?

My wife brings in around that much money every two weeks. We also have three children, and that money more than covers our gas and groceries. Although I'm not 100% sure, I'm wondering if the machinist makes the same/more money than I do. And again, the article did not mention how much they had spent on their home, what their monthly budget was, etc.


You know, I was going to say maybe cost of living is higher in their region... but you live in NYC don't you? which would make that nearly impossible...
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Desirsar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:09 am

The main reason it takes so many weeks for people to get off of that system is that they generally only seek and accept job offers that pay at least as much as the unemployment checks are totaling. Why? Because if they get a job that pays less than that number, the government doesn't keep sending the difference - they just cut you off. People would probably take a lower paying job if the government continued partial assistance until they worked long enough to get off a probationary period or earned a raise via promotion or simply experience. It's just like the single parents who intentionally work less than they could to stay below a cutoff for government assistance because making enough to reach the cutoff is less than the total of a number just below plus the benefits. All of these systems need to be changed to provide some sort of "total minimum income" instead of having ridiculous tiering that encourage manipulation of the system rather than working toward advancement in a career.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
the_new_york_times wrote:She was unable to afford summer camp and baseball activities for her children, despite scrimping on basics.


Basics, you know, like laptops, movies, and baseball camp. Heh.


Those are luxuries, not basics. (Couldn't tell which way you were intending that...) Private student loans or financial aid can be used for that computer for college, I don't get what their problem is in that regard.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:11 am

Make it permanent.

And increase the cash for clunkers benefit.

Abracadabra!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:24 am

Ok here is the problem with being compassionate to a fault - you can only do it so much until everyone is hurt for it.

Who is paying for extending unemployment benefits indefinitely? Us. As well as the trillions of dollars in bailouts, subsidies to the private sector (cash for clunkers), and all the other crap out there. Thats all well and good, but we aren't paying it now. The federal government is running massive budget deficits - so each extra dollar it spends (drumroll), is an extra dollar it is either printing or borrowing.

Printing dollars doesn't create wealth - otherwise Zimbabwe would be the wealthiest country in the world. And borrowing dollars - well, they have to be paid back - by the sweat off our backs in the future and the backs of future generations.

Fine - so our government borrows the money. We will tighten our belts a little bit later on so that we don't suffer today.

But pay attention - heres the kicker. The creditors of the US (primarily Asian countries), are not fucking stupid. They are not going to keep financing our activities indefinitely if it becomes apparent that we are getting to the point where a) we have no intention of paying them back because we plan on creating so much inflation that the the repayment will be worthless, or b) we have no means of paying them back because our debtload is altogether too high.

When Asia decides that the US is a deadbeat scumbag, which a quick search of google will demonstrate its starting to have suspicions about, the whole charade is over. There will be no way out of the box and thats when we will really feel pain.

Some background - One of the biggest benefits the US government has had, that no other government could take advantage of, is reserve currency status - the ability to borrow in its own currency. Think about how awesome that ability is. If the nations of the world were superheroes, the US would be a combination of Superman and the Incredible Hulk (not really a superhero but you get the idea). Its like having the power to print up unlimited coupons on anything imaginable that you can buy - and you even get to choose your own discount (the rate you dillute the currency by printing is the amount of the discount). This superpower is created through the trust that other countries have in your fiscal sanity and judgment. It is also slowly going away each time we extend unemployment benefits an extra 13 weeks, give out $4,500 freebies for certain people to get new cars, or bail out investment banks so rich wall street executives can keep their jobs.

It sounds fine in the abstract - the very real concerns about people not being able to afford laptops and baseball leagues for their children, or for that matter perhaps not being able to afford rent or food seems like it should take precedence over maintaining our reserve currency status. But trust me - people are not going to be happy once we lose it. If you think things are bad right now when we are running a persistent deficit that is subsidized by the sweat of poor Asian worker bees, imagine how bad things will be when the subsidy is gone and we have to pay high interest rates for the money we borrow - and actually have to repay that money at full value. Its the equivalent of chaining Superman to kryptonite. At that point, all the magic in the US government will not be able to do a damn thing to ease the pain and its going to suck.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Desirsar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 10:24 am

Corth wrote:or bail out investment banks so rich wall street executives can keep their jobs.


Off topic, but I'm pretty sure that no one really wanted to do it for the executives. Those that kept their jobs were lucky that the government decided to protect investors with assets and savings in those banks from losing most of their money to the institutions going bankrupt and folding.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:40 pm

I disagree. Investors were already insured via the FDIC and SIPC in most cases. Nobody even stated that as a concern at the time. Rather we were told the entire capitalist world would meltdown if we didn't, ummm, save the banks from capitalism. This was a lot of bullshit. There were plenty of smaller banks that were not irresponsible ready to pick up the slack and reap the rewards of their prudence. Rather, the bailout was orchestrated by financial industry cronies such as Hank Paulson (former head of Goldman Sachs), in order to keep themseles and their friends from losing jobs.

To put it more in terms that are more familiar to our left-leaning friends on this forum, the financial industry bailout was a maneuver by the ruling/elite classes to maintain the status quo for their own benefit, while getting the middle class to pay for it.

Getting back onto topic, I wonder if perhaps the magic of the Federal Government should be used to outlaw poverty. We could do something like give every man, woman, and child $100,000. That would basically get rid of most household debt in one fell swoop. Why the hell not, right?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Ambar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 2:25 pm

I think the topics are getting way too similar so answering two or three here ..


There are so many programs I disagree with that were started with every good intention. Haven't we hashed this out over and over again? We have the bleeding heart folks who want people to live on unemployment forever, we don't want people to actually have to take care of their own families. I bet our grandparents would be ashamed of us, the men who worked as cabbies and delivered papers to earn that extra bit of income. We as women wanted our freedoms, but look at the stats, most of us are lazy baby factories, they make below standard incomes so they can still get their foods tamps, SSI and other *benefits* and with all the subsidies they can have gorgeous nails and hair. I am personally lazy with my health. It is my own fault! I work 40, maybe 43 hrs a week. I maker a decent income AND I get a retirement check each month from the Navy. I have scads of free time, no kids to take care of and I am still overweight and under-exercised. It is not the fast food industry's fault, it is MINE. Noone will stand up and admit that they are at fault when you can blame KFC, McDonalds .. what about your own damn willpower, fatass? We are at the most educated, health conscious point in history and we are the fattest, the most unhealthy, the most self-absorbed people in the world. There are probably more people in the US who seek to beat the system, find the cheats and gray areas than who are actual decent beings who live within their mans and support their own. We are lazy in every facet of our lives. Why get 2 part time jobs because you CAN when you can just sit on your ass, apply for one job a week and get unemployment for months, YEARS on end. It just ticks me off, heh
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Kifle » Sun Aug 02, 2009 4:32 pm

Ambar wrote:I think the topics are getting way too similar so answering two or three here ..


There are so many programs I disagree with that were started with every good intention. Haven't we hashed this out over and over again? We have the bleeding heart folks who want people to live on unemployment forever, we don't want people to actually have to take care of their own families. I bet our grandparents would be ashamed of us, the men who worked as cabbies and delivered papers to earn that extra bit of income. We as women wanted our freedoms, but look at the stats, most of us are lazy baby factories, they make below standard incomes so they can still get their foods tamps, SSI and other *benefits* and with all the subsidies they can have gorgeous nails and hair. I am personally lazy with my health. It is my own fault! I work 40, maybe 43 hrs a week. I maker a decent income AND I get a retirement check each month from the Navy. I have scads of free time, no kids to take care of and I am still overweight and under-exercised. It is not the fast food industry's fault, it is MINE. Noone will stand up and admit that they are at fault when you can blame KFC, McDonalds .. what about your own damn willpower, fatass? We are at the most educated, health conscious point in history and we are the fattest, the most unhealthy, the most self-absorbed people in the world. There are probably more people in the US who seek to beat the system, find the cheats and gray areas than who are actual decent beings who live within their mans and support their own. We are lazy in every facet of our lives. Why get 2 part time jobs because you CAN when you can just sit on your ass, apply for one job a week and get unemployment for months, YEARS on end. It just ticks me off, heh


Bleeding hearts or just socially evolved? We started off as an egotistical species and have evolved into a more societal species. I think you overexagerate about their/my stance on unemployment. You confuse the desire to help people in a time of need and the desire to ensure somebody can live off of my hard work. Nobody on this board has EVER created an argument which was in favor of the abuse of social programs. The economy is tough right now. 20% of college graduates, by the latest findings, have jobs. That's down from 57% in 2007. I'm not sure of the numbers before that. I don't think it's inherently wrong or disastrous to extend benefits as a temporary stopgap. What many people forget is this economy is based solely on consumerism. This is just a temporary practice in order to keep the economy going until things are corrected. As Corth alluded to in his last post, this problem was not necessarily a problem that the middle-class created; however, the middle-class is taking the blame for it through the creation or expanding of certain social programs -- be it temporary (unemployment) or permanent (healthcare). The top got greedy and exceedingly adventurous. On top of this, yes, the lower/middle class and, to a lesser extent the upper-middle, had quite a hand in it as well through financial over-extension, but this is a far lesser portion of the bigger problem. How can you sit here and say one should have known better, and that our problems are due to such a small portion of the country when the larger portion is actually working and trying to get out of debt (ex. savings percentages, less luxuries being bought, etc.). So, in short, point your self-righteous finger all you want, but the unemployment extension is not the devil you make it out to be. You need these people buying things to have a job. People lose jobs when there is no money being spent. Sure, there are people taking advantage of the situation, but I highly, highly doubt that it is a major percentage of those on unemployment. It is not the problem.

As for older generations. I'm sure there are generations that would be pissed that you, as a woman, joined the military or were even allowed in the military. Should we agree with those sentiments as well because they are our grandparents/grandparents' grandparents? Some generations would be pissed that you, as a woman, are voicing her opinion at all, let alone in a public forum. Should we also follow their standards in that arena? Some generations would be pissed that you got a divorce and lived with a man while unmarried. Should we shun you because of this standard? In the late 1800's and before, chubby/hefty women were seen as beautiful while skinny women were seen as unappealing. How does this work in to your health scheme?

More on the health portion: Better health leads to longer lives which leads to overpopulation, longer working periods to retirement, high drain on the social programs already in place. Shouldn't we also thank these fatties that die at 30 of a heart attack because they saved me upwards of a million dollars in healthcare costs? So what if I had to pay for his subsidized perscription of lipitor for five years... he's dead now and is saving me 1000x that amount.

As for whose fault it is that we are a fat nation... there are, as always, two sides to every coin. You have lived in entirely different circumstances than Jane-next-door. Your cost of living is much different than it is in New York, which is different than rural Indiana, which is different than rural Hawaii. Your paychecks for half a month would probably pay for a very shitty apartment in NY, a bigger house in Indiana, and a 1 sqft. piece of land in Hawaii. Your job probably, and I am already acknowledging speculation, does not require you to life heavy boxes all day, work in intense heat every day, drain you mentally every day. Do you work 10 hrs. in a field under a blistering sun in temperatures of roughly 100 degrees six days a week? I'd be willing to bet you work a first shift job, in an air conditioned office, and are more than likely working on a computer. Just guessing. However, there are people out there that work 10-16hr days in physically demanding jobs (which doesn't automatically assume physically fit/thin/health promoting) 5-6 days a week while their spouses work roughly the same. At 16hr days, you have 0 time to spend doing anything else unless you are sacrificing sleep -- which in turn lowers your energy levels for the next day. At 14hrs, you have 2hrs to cook breakfast, eat it, and cook and eat a healthy dinner. Assuming 15mins during meals to talk with whoever is up (assuming you work a schedule that allows you to be at home and these are the same hours other people are also eating. More than likely, working 14hrs, you're eating alone. 30mins cook time both times, 15 mins eating time both times leaves you 30 minutes before bed. This is all not considering waking up, showering, brushing teeth, shitting. Quality family time. You see where this is going. I'm not even going to bring up swing-shifts... if you've ever had to experience that. Notice how most people here, save for that one guy, has office jobs who are "healthy." I'm betting most work 8hr shifts too. Does Dug have kids?

Everything is simple as long as your situation allows it; however, believe it or not, life is not so easy for many people in this country, and I think it's about time some of you people open up your eyes and stop projecting your life experience on to everybody else. We are not you; you are not us. Have any of you ever worked in a steel mill? Do you think you would last more than a week? A day? Don't kid yourselves. Your just as much "pussies" as the fat people that "have no willpower."
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 7:50 pm

Ambar wrote:I think the topics are getting way too similar so answering two or three here ..


There are so many programs I disagree with that were started with every good intention. Haven't we hashed this out over and over again? We have the bleeding heart folks who want people to live on unemployment forever, we don't want people to actually have to take care of their own families.


No, we just don't want kids starving to death because parents' can't find work in a shitty economy.

Watch the first half hour or so of Cinderella Man, and then come back and explain how we'd be a better society with families being that desperate to stay fed and healthy. Not everyone can just become a championship boxer you know.

I bet our grandparents would be ashamed of us, the men who worked as cabbies and delivered papers to earn that extra bit of income.


Or they'd be proud that we look out for our fellow man. By the way, delivering papers? Right. That's just about enough income for your average junior high kid to buy comic books on. Meanwhile I know a social worker who works at a movie theater and a mortgage banker who moonlights at banana republic, so I don't quite think the "work hard" ideal is as dead as you think. (Most of middle America works 1 job, but works plenty more than 40 hours a week at it for no additional pay because our work ethic is so absurdly high.)


We as women wanted our freedoms, but look at the stats, most of us are lazy baby factories,


Most? I don't actually know a single woman like that. Then again, your grandparents would probably be shocked these women are working at all when they SHOULD be raising the kids properly. But I guess we'd be better off of kids raised themselves while both mother and father worked constantly.

I am personally lazy with my health. It is my own fault! I work 40, maybe 43 hrs a week. I maker a decent income AND I get a retirement check each month from the Navy. I have scads of free time, no kids to take care of and I am still overweight and under-exercised.


So because you are lazy EVERYONE must be lazy, right?

It is not the fast food industry's fault, it is MINE. Noone will stand up and admit that they are at fault when you can blame KFC, McDonalds .. what about your own damn willpower, fatass? We are at the most educated, health conscious point in history and we are the fattest, the most unhealthy, the most self-absorbed people in the world.


So I guess Europeans must just not be lazy? You know, the societies with tons of vacation time, shorter work weeks and probably more holidays? Or maybe, just possibly, their restaurants don't serve oversized portions of everything, their shorter work weeks allow for more exercise, and their culture encourages healthy living more than ours does?

Yes, a person's willpower is important in managing health/weight. That doesn't for one second mean our society doesn't make it harder than it should be.

There are probably more people in the US who seek to beat the system, find the cheats and gray areas


Yes, it's called the banking industry. Oh, and politicians. Probably lawyers too, they'd certainly be good at it.

than who are actual decent beings who live within their mans and support their own.


Perhaps because many jobs don't pay enough for anyone to live within those means?

We are lazy in every facet of our lives. Why get 2 part time jobs because you CAN when you can just sit on your ass, apply for one job a week and get unemployment for months, YEARS on end. It just ticks me off, heh


Maybe you're lazy in every facet of your life, but that doesn't mean everyone is. By the way, you may not have noticed but we have a high unemployment rate. This typically means people cannot find jobs. Yet you're getting pissy because they can't find two? Please.

Go watch Cinderella Man. The movie opens with the guy standing outside a dock with a crowd of other guys looking for work. 5 or 6 get selected, out of 30-40. That's what you're looking for, and somehow you want them to find two jobs?
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:07 pm

Corth wrote:To put it more in terms that are more familiar to our left-leaning friends on this forum, the financial industry bailout was a maneuver by the ruling/elite classes to maintain the status quo for their own benefit, while getting the middle class to pay for it.


Yes. And? I thought you said greed was a good thing?
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Desirsar » Sun Aug 02, 2009 8:50 pm

"Live within means" is an amusing expression and concept. You don't find a job to live within means, you have a job (or two) that pays a given amount and you either live within that or overspend. The entire concept and phrase as I see it used most often implies that way too many things are necessities or that people are entitled to things just because they could afford them at one time.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:To put it more in terms that are more familiar to our left-leaning friends on this forum, the financial industry bailout was a maneuver by the ruling/elite classes to maintain the status quo for their own benefit, while getting the middle class to pay for it.


Yes. And? I thought you said greed was a good thing?


Indeed it is. Its the most productive of all human traits so long as its fair - i.e. so long as people aren't coerced into giving you money, but rather, freely do business with you because you are providing a valuable good or service in return. In this case all taxpayers were coerced into paying the tab to save failed private enterprises. The bailouts were simply an example of corruption, and its infuriating to see businesses that should be bankrupt claiming huge profits (and giving out huge bonuses), after the taxpayers were forced to subsidize their failed businesses. This is about the furthest thing from 'free market' or 'capitalism' that you can find.
Last edited by Corth on Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:37 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:To put it more in terms that are more familiar to our left-leaning friends on this forum, the financial industry bailout was a maneuver by the ruling/elite classes to maintain the status quo for their own benefit, while getting the middle class to pay for it.


Yes. And? I thought you said greed was a good thing?


Indeed it is. Its the most productive of all human traits so long as its fair - i.e. so long as the government doesn't get involved picking winners and losers. The 'free' part of the 'free market'.


Oh I'm sorry, because what I thought you just described was very wealthy people using their wealth to ensure they stayed wealthy. The market will never be free, the people with the most money will always have power. Teach them that greed is good, that money is all they should seek and that is what they'll do.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Sun Aug 02, 2009 11:41 pm

Sarvis,

As often happens, I edited my post to clarify my thoughts and you replied quickly before I was done.

That being said, your point still applies. My answer is that greed is similar to another human trait: fear. In the context of the stock market, for instance, they are the primary two opposing forces that guide human action. Fear can be a good or bad thing. If there is a reason to fear something, then you should proceed cautiously. Fear is a means of self-preservation.

Of course fear can also be a bad thing. Fear of rejection can keep people from trying to find compansionship. Fear of flying can keep people from travelling. People can have their fears manipulated by others - fear of terrorism, for instance, would be a good justification for military action that might be considered unwarranted.

Greed is productive in the context of a free market system, because the only way to obtain the reward you seek is to produce something of value for others. In the absence of greed, nobody invents new technologies, services, goods, etc. Nobody innovates because they lack any incentive to do so. However, when someone invents a great new product because they simply want to sell it to people who willingly pay their money for it - that is productive in every sense of the word.

Greed in a manipulated economy (such as ours) is corruption. Note that this is not a free market, its a manipulated economy. When people are rewarded by a government that picks winners and losers based upon who you are friends with, then its not necessary to produce things of value or innovate. This type of greed does not advance society or humanity in any meaningful way. Its the 'bad' type of greed that we both are against.

Ultimately that is one of my biggest critiques of big government. The more power government has, the less people are rewarded on their merits, but rather are rewarded by criteria that does not create incentives for progress.

The danger though is failing to distinguish between productive 'good' greed, where free people out of self interest do business with each other, without coercion, and cause innovation and progress, and 'bad' greed where individuals are rewarded not because they do anything particularly good or useful, but rather because they game the system or take advantage of political connections.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:22 am

Corth wrote:Greed is productive in the context of a free market system, because the only way to obtain the reward you seek is to produce something of value for others.


The problem is that this isn't true. You can very easily create, for lack of a better word, gilded products that only seem beneficial for others and make money that way. Frequently easier. This is basically what all the financial companies did. Credit swaps? The illusion of security on those investments. ARMs? The illusion of being able to afford a nice home for your family. Snake oil salesmen have always existed, and always will exist, and will always make a profit... up to the point they can start abusing their power to affect legislation.

In the absence of greed, nobody invents new technologies, services, goods, etc. Nobody innovates because they lack any incentive to do so.


Bull. People invented fire long before money was invented. Same goes for tools, weapons, and pretty much anything and everything up until money was invented. Most of these were shared communally for the benefit of everyone, not just the inventor. People aren't going to stop inventing if we don't promote greed as a virtue. If anything, promoting invention itself might lead to more progress as people will be trying to do that. Right now people seek money, not to make each others' lives better. IF you can get money by screwing people over in a legal way, then you'll do it.

I wonder how many products are tossed aside simply because an inventor can't think of a way to monetize it? Chevy Volt, anyone? A car that, if it had been produced years ago probably would have made profit AND put us in a better position today?

However, when someone invents a great new product because they simply want to sell it to people who willingly pay their money for it - that is productive in every sense of the word.


And when people invent things because they like to invent, or are encouraged to invent?

Ultimately that is one of my biggest critiques of big government. The more power government has, the less people are rewarded on their merits, but rather are rewarded by criteria that does not create incentives for progress.


Somehow, though, I don't see preventing children from starving to death or dying to treatable diseases as "rewarding people." There's a certain basic line of being able to survive that we should be able to maintain for everyone. This is not the same thing as bailing out the banking industry, though I'm not sure your smaller banks would really have been able to take up the slack here.

The danger though is failing to distinguish between productive 'good' greed, where free people out of self interest do business with each other, without coercion, and cause innovation and progress, and 'bad' greed where individuals are rewarded not because they do anything particularly good or useful, but rather because they game the system or take advantage of political connections.


There is no distinction, it's all still greed. You're looking at how people act on that greed and trying to create a distinction. Good people will not game the system or take advantage of political connections, but for that to occur you need to encourage people to be honest... not to be greedy. They will be greedy anyway, we need to encourage behaviors that use that greed in a beneficial manner.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:53 am

If fire is the extent of the innovation you are content with then we aren't exactly on the same page. My thoughts are that you may want to join the real world, where things get done for money. I'd like to suggest to my contractor that he do my kitchen because he should find that type of work interesting and stimulating - but ultimately its his desire for my money, and my desire for a nice kitchen, that makes the entirely productive relationship come together.

As far as I can tell, the rest of your post was not at all responsive to what I wrote. Taken as a whole, the post was a great example of what people often complain about when trying to have a meaningful discussion with you. Its less about trying to explain viewpoints, or learn anything, and more about you trying to feel witty because you learned at some point how to build a straw man and knock him down. I'm referring to the starving children paragraph in particular here. And do you really want to turn this debate into the marketability of the Chevy Volt when gasoline was a buck a gallon? Take that somewhere else..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:18 pm

Corth wrote:If fire is the extent of the innovation you are content with then we aren't exactly on the same page. My thoughts are that you may want to join the real world, where things get done for money. I'd like to suggest to my contractor that he do my kitchen because he should find that type of work interesting and stimulating - but ultimately its his desire for my money, and my desire for a nice kitchen, that makes the entirely productive relationship come together.

As far as I can tell, the rest of your post was not at all responsive to what I wrote. Taken as a whole, the post was a great example of what people often complain about when trying to have a meaningful discussion with you. Its less about trying to explain viewpoints, or learn anything, and more about you trying to feel witty because you learned at some point how to build a straw man and knock him down. I'm referring to the starving children paragraph in particular here. And do you really want to turn this debate into the marketability of the Chevy Volt when gasoline was a buck a gallon? Take that somewhere else..


Wow Corth, just... wow. You find what you're looking for, Corth. Be it straw men or an easy way to be a dismissive prick. Fire was an example, should I go into all the art people create knowing they'll never see money in their lifetime? Should I search history books for every example of invention that was produced to need rather than for profit? Of course, you already ignored the rest of that paragraph where I talked about how humans worked together for mutual survival and benefit so I'm not sure why I'd bother.

Somehow I'm just not surprised that you called out "straw man" and bitched about that rather than replying to the actual, main point here. You want to argue about argument technique? This is what you resort to every single fucking time.

Here, just read the last paragraph of my last post. Frankly, I almost deleted the rest because I thought this paragraph was most representative anyway. Perhaps I should have, since I'm not sure you got past "fire."


There is no distinction, it's all still greed. You're looking at how people act on that greed and trying to create a distinction. Good people will not game the system or take advantage of political connections, but for that to occur you need to encourage people to be honest... not to be greedy. They will be greedy anyway, we need to encourage behaviors that use that greed in a beneficial manner.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:56 pm

What I meant it is my choice to remain the way I am and noone else should have to pay for it. Funny thing is I am ond of those girls who bitches and moans about it, LOL yet I sit and do nothing (yeah thats another thread in istelf :P) I brought grandparents up because they did what they had to to make it, they didn't rely on handouts, sorry if THAT was unclear too :) If someone chooses not to go get a lower paying job or get a second job to supliment income why should we all have to pay for it. Sorry if I wasn't clear. The programs are great for bootstrap type programs but they have become the norm and it IS sad. The programs were not meant to be permanent. I'm sure there will be exceptions to every rule but most able bodied Americans would not be hurt but putting in extra time at a second job, or even 2 lower paying jobs. Do what you have to to get by.

Yes I work in an office, but I didn't used to. For 20 years I worked on flight decks and flight lines, I think I may have SOME inkling what hard work is .. If you have EVER been to the middle east you know it is HOT there. Been there, done that, still have the t-shirt and photos to prove it. Twelve hours and more in 120+ degree heat while wearing flight deck gear (turtleneck with sleeves rolled down, cammie pants, flight deck boots, a safety helmet and a *float coat*i) .. NOT fun. Never EVER say I don't know what hard work is like :) Unless you've had to run up and down a aircraft carrier's flight deck wearing all that crap plus a tool belt hitting you in the ass to meet an airplane, people screaming on your headset .. Lol sorry, I digress but it cracks me up when people assume I don't know what hard work is :)


Sarvis .. bit of advice. Sometimes it is better to step away for a day or a few hrs before you respond, think about what the other person may be trying to convey before knee-jerk reacting to everything. I doubt you are an analyst, not EVERY word needs to be dissected and over-thought.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:19 pm

By the way Corth, if no one invents anything without profit motive how do you explain Open Source Software?
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:46 pm

People do things when they have an incentive to do so. Monetary compensation (greed) is a very common reason - especially when it comes to creating or providing products or services. However, if the product or service is for your own use - farmer developing a new method of fertilization, a mudder developing code to assist in quickly performing rescues while in zone groups, etc, then there is also a strong incentive. Also prestige and reputation can also be an incentive to do productive things - like for instance give charity, work on open source projects, etc.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:52 pm

Corth wrote:People do things when they have an incentive to do so. Monetary compensation (greed) is a very common reason - especially when it comes to creating or providing products or services. However, if the product or service is for your own use - farmer developing a new method of fertilization, a mudder developing code to assist in quickly performing rescues while in zone groups, etc, then there is also a strong incentive. Also prestige and reputation can also be an incentive to do productive things - like for instance give charity, work on open source projects, etc.


Ah Corth, a step forward! A mere two posts ago you were claiming we had to promote greed as a virtue because otherwise there would be no progress, now you at least realize there are other reasons.

Now, shall we continue? I promise it won't be too scary.

In the world of web browsers, Microsoft has held dominance for a long, LONG time with Internet Explorer. What has finally pushed them to modernize their browser and start adding real new features to it as well as become more compliant with web standards?

Here's a hint: their only significant competition in browsers comes from open source projects like FireFox and Chrome.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:04 pm

Exactly right - Microsoft risks losing market share to a competitor so they are forced to imrpove their product. Less market share = less profit. Greed at work improving the world.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:18 pm

Corth wrote:Exactly right - Microsoft risks losing market share to a competitor so they are forced to imrpove their product. Less market share = less profit. Greed at work improving the world.


No, Corth... not really. For one thing MS doesn't actually make any money on IE. I frankly don't even understand why they bother, it's just a feature of their OS and a very large portion of people never even upgraded from IE6.

But you missed the point anyway. The point was that they were forced to improve their product by competitors with NO profit motive. The innovation came from a group with no profit motive, and the "innovations" in IE8 are largely copies of features that Firefox pioneered.

The profit-motive driven company is playing catch-up with the non-profit seeking group of open source developers.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Corth » Mon Aug 03, 2009 3:46 pm

If you look carefully you will see that they make plenty of money because of internet explorer. Perhaps they are not directly selling it, but there are some huge indirect monetary benefits to Microsoft for increasing market share of their browser.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby Sarvis » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:02 pm

Corth wrote:If you look carefully you will see that they make plenty of money because of internet explorer. Perhaps they are not directly selling it, but there are some huge indirect monetary benefits to Microsoft for increasing market share of their browser.


Even if we assume that's true, the actual innovation is coming from Firefox... which does not have a profit motive. MS is just copying the actual innovation which is occurring in absence of greed.
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Re: wah f*king wah

Postby kiryan » Mon Aug 03, 2009 4:10 pm

the topic of this thread is people on unemployment whining about being unable to buy laptops and send their kids to college.

to a lesser degree its about the media putting these up as examples of the "hardship" facing American families. its like that food stamp article I posted a few months ago, stupid people got a windfall due to inappropriate denial of benefits, so one lady spent more than she usually does in a month for thanksgiving and another bought lobster. absolutely frickign ridiculous that we accept articles like this, that we might feel happy for them or even think "thats nice". These are examples of extreme irresponsibility and yet there is a market for it... to people who think thats wonderful.

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