Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

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kiryan
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Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:21 pm

Its a sympathy piece. You're supposed to feel sorry for these illegal immigrants who need dialysis or they will die. Meanwhile, we pay more and more for our healthcare to give these guys a free ride. Wheres the sympathy for the US tax payer... for the insured? Is it any surprise that healthcare insurance is unaffordable when hospitals are full time cost shifting from uninsured patients to insured ones due to law?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/21/healt ... ted=1&_r=1

"To survive, they needed dialysis at a cost of about $50,000 a year, which their sporadic work as housekeepers, painters and laborers could not begin to cover."
(but they get the treatment anyway for free at hospitals...)
...
And so they turned to Grady, a taxpayer-supported safety-net hospital that would provide dialysis to anyone in need, even illegal immigrants with no insurance or ability to pay. Every Tuesday, Thursday and Saturday morning, the 15 or so patients
(15 patients times 50k a year = 750k, remember this is a private hospital)
...
That all changed on Oct. 4, when the strapped public hospital closed its outpatient dialysis clinic, leaving 51 patients — almost all illegal immigrants — in a life-or-death limbo.
(oh not 15 patients, 51, *50 = 2.5million of unpaid services to a private corporation)
...
“We didn’t know what to do,” said Ignacio G. Lopez, 23, who had been sustained by the clinic for more than three years. “We can pass away if we stay like two weeks without dialysis. They were just sending us out to die.”
(umm... you would've died years ago if you weren't getting free services)
...
Officials at Grady, which will provide more than $300 million in uncompensated care this year, estimate that as many as a fifth of its uninsured patients are illegal immigrants. Although the numbers are elusive, a national study by the RAND Corporation concluded that illegal immigrants account for about 1.3 percent of public health spending.
(I dunno about those numbers, 50% of ER care is not paid, illegals are 20% of uninsured patients... Maybe illegals are only 1.3% of public spending, but we as the public are spending a lot more for their free care)
...
Calling it “a horrible situation,” Mr. Correll said that governments at all levels had decided that immigrants were not their problem. “But somehow,” he said, “they’ve become Grady’s problem, which seems totally unfair.”
(Grady is the hospital, yes, EMTALA which requires emergency rooms to treat patients which lead to health organizations setting up services like the free dialysis clinic to stop overcrowding in their ERs was basically a law that made the uninsured the hospitals problem, which makes it the problem of anyone who uses the hospital and can pay).=
...
Some of the Grady dialysis patients have chosen to return to their countries, encouraged by the hospital’s offer of free airfare, cash payments, three months of paid dialysis and assistance in seeking insurance or other long-term remedies. Others are trying their luck in states where Medicaid policies may be less restrictive.
(got to love america, keep moving until you find a different teat to suck, california has 12% of the nations population and 32% of the welfare cases because their rules are generous)
...
After hearing that the clinic would close, Ms. Perez, 32, set out for Alabama on Sept. 6 because cousins told her they might be able to procure dialysis there. Grady was not yet offering its deal for three months of treatment, and instead gave her $1,300, enough to cover dialysis for a week or two.
(so the hospital gave her $1,300 because they were cutting off a free service...)

Ms. Perez said the money was quickly spent on rent, food and transportation. After going without dialysis for 16 days, she walked into an emergency room near Birmingham, which found that the potassium levels in her blood were high enough to require immediate filtration. Eight days later, she did the same at another Birmingham hospital.
(yea, emtala in action. Hospitals are BLEEDING money through their ERs which is why many closed theirs and many more just understaff them. THe more people they see the more money they lose)

“They said this was the first and last time they would help me,” she said. “They told me I didn’t have any right to be there.”
(see, thats where they are wrong. they do have the right to be there. She needs to hire a lawyer and sue.)

She went back to the first hospital, where she was dialyzed again, and then found a third hospital that was willing to provide three treatments. A doctor there tried to find a private dialysis clinic that would accept her but came up empty, she said.
(of course, why would a private dialysis clinic take a patient who can't pay anything?)

So she returned to Atlanta on Oct. 11, and underwent one more emergency treatment before agreeing to fly home to Mexico with assistance from Grady and a California company, MexCare, that the hospital has hired to help repatriate interested patients.
(Grady is again footing the bill... why.... because they are a caring group of people... and because its cheaper to pay these people than to provide the dialysis).
...
Some do not want to uproot their American-born children, or abandon their spouses or jobs. Often they do not trust the quality or availability of dialysis in Latin America.
(you wouldn't have american born children or spouses if you werent here illegally.)
...
“No place in Mexico would have offered dialysis for free,” he said, sitting in the spare apartment he shares with his girlfriend and their 13-year-old son. “It was better to be here. I am really grateful that this is possible in this country, because if I were in my country I would already have died”
(glad you are grateful, now about the bill.)
...
“All the people here on dialysis think the same thing,” said her daughter, Letecia. “They all think that if they go back to Mexico, they will die sooner. In Mexico, it’s different. There, you have to pay.”
(gee what an outrage, you have to pay for services you consume in Mexico)
...
But illegal immigrants are not eligible for Medicare, and legal immigrants must wait five years to qualify. A few states use emergency Medicaid programs to cover ongoing dialysis for certain illegal immigrants, but Georgia discontinued the practice in 2006.
(not eligibile but theres an exception... and you don't think there aren't exceptions in the healthcare reform being passed today? maybe there isn't because they plan to just make them citizens, who knows, but I'd be very surprised)
...
That sent waves of uninsured dialysis patients from across the region to Grady, which is supported by direct appropriations from Fulton and DeKalb Counties, ostensibly to care for their own residents. The hospital lost $3.5 million on the dialysis clinic last year, said Mr. Gove, the Grady spokesman. Its 88 dialysis patients accounted for a 10th of total losses at a hospital with more than 800,000 patient visits a year, he said.

The board acted, Mr. Correll said, because Grady’s dialysis equipment had become obsolete, requiring heavy investment. It was evident, given that so many patients were undocumented and uninsured, that the losses would never stop.
(yea sure... the red ink probably didn't influence that at all, evil hospitals!)
“It was just financially hopeless,” Mr. Correll said. “For every vacancy that opened up, another nonpaying patient would walk in the door, so it was going to last forever.”
(yea EMTALA)
...
The hospital’s agreement with MexCare, obtained through a state open records request, calls for Grady to pay $18,000 for every patient relocated — $6,750 in travel expenses and escort fees, a $750 administrative fee, and payment for 30 dialysis treatments at $350 each.
(holy shit, the hospital is paying 20k because they are no longer providing free services to people who can't pay for them?)

Two years ago, the Grady board, then dominated by political appointees, undercut its chief executive’s plan to close the dialysis clinic. The new board, now led by business leaders, hopes to save the hospital by convincing corporations and other potential donors that its fiscal discipline is worthy of support.
(great, you had a board and CEO who actually knew how to run a business and keep it open reversed by a bunch of political appointees that are just goign to bleed it dry then get an award for their humanitarian work... maybe a nobel peace prize?)
...
When Mr. Lopez first showed up at Grady in 2006, five years after he had crossed into Arizona at age 15, his disease had turned his skin a pallid gray. The doctors told him he was lucky he had not waited another day.

The charge for the initial hospital stay ran to $40,000; he said his stack of bills now totaled more than $100,000. “I try to pay little by little,” he said, “but I’m never going to finish.”
(great, 40k now, 50k in treatment a year and he's 15.)

“They all think that if they go back to Mexico, they will die sooner. In Mexico, it’s different. There, you have to pay.”
(no brainer, mexico I have to pay, USA the US citizens and businesses will pay, well at least they aren't stupid, can't say the same about our congressional representatives and president)
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:57 pm

Grady Memorial Hospital is a non-profit public hospital which subsists off of county taxes and large, private donations. It draws little or no funding from the state or federal government. Your tax dollars never see the inside of this hospital. Here you are writing three screens of text belittling immigrants for seeking care at a hospital whose mission is to provide care for low-income individuals.

It's always so ironic to me that the political party of Family Values and Christian Compassion is the same political party railing against nonprofit hospitals. What's next, a passionate diatribe about personal responsibility after a soup kitchen closes?
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:14 am

Where is there a political party railing against non-profit hospitals? I don't recall seeing that in anyone's platform.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:53 am

Ragorn wrote:Grady Memorial Hospital is a non-profit public hospital which subsists off of county taxes and large, private donations. It draws little or no funding from the state or federal government. Your tax dollars never see the inside of this hospital. Here you are writing three screens of text belittling immigrants for seeking care at a hospital whose mission is to provide care for low-income individuals.


Blatant falsehoods highlighted in red.

1) The hospital receives state and federal funding, period. $37.7 million period. http://www.emory.edu/grady/budget.htm


2) It does shift the cost of health care from uninsured patients to insured ones. "medical insurance company Kaiser Permanente pledged $5 million" - http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/ ... ?id=h-1216


Pilfered from http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/ ... ?id=h-1216:

Restructuring of Grady Memorial Hospital

Grady Memorial Hospital's longstanding tradition of serving the poor and uninsured in the Atlanta area, many of whom are unable to pay for medical care, as well as reductions in state and federal funding, led to financial distress for the institution in 2007. In addition to a budget shortfall, much of Grady's equipment and infrastructure were seriously outdated, and the hospital risked losing its accreditation, which would have led to further reductions in federal funding.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 08, 2010 5:19 pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/healt ... s.html?hpw

another hospital closing their free dialysis treatment.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 2:35 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/08/health/policy/08dialysis.html?hpw

another hospital closing their free dialysis treatment.

...aren't you in favor of hospitals not giving out free service? Shouldn't you be happy?
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 11, 2010 7:23 pm

...aren't you in favor of hospitals not giving out free service? Shouldn't you be happy?

really? these people are still going to get their free dialysis in the Emergency room... what should I be happy about? The higher cost of treating them in the ER (but better bottom line since they'll get some reimbursement)? The longer lines in ER as hospitals scale back ER staff so they don't have to serve as many patients in the ER so they don't bleed as much money? Nothings changed, its just shifted some stuff around and going to cause different problems.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:24 pm

Would you prefer they all just die so you don't have to wait as long to see the doctor?
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:46 pm

I would prefer government stay out of it. Charity to be handled by charities and people accept full responsibility for their own actions. If you have diabetes, you hvae to make different decisions regardless of whether you were born with it or developed it later, unfair but reality.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:50 pm

So is that a yes, then?
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:48 pm

fine, yes. I would prefer people to die so I don't have to wait as long to see the doctor and pay as much.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 12, 2010 3:26 pm

kiryan wrote:fine, yes. I would prefer people to die so I don't have to wait as long to see the doctor and pay as much.

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ.

- Mahatma Ghandi
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:44 pm

whatever you say. I guess only communists and socialists who give all their earnings to the government can be good Christians.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:15 pm

kiryan wrote:whatever you say. I guess only communists and socialists who give all their earnings to the government can be good Christians.

Good christians don't wish death on the poor because they are inconvenient. I don't think you need to be a socialist to understand that.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 13, 2010 10:20 pm

I don't actually wish death on the poor, I just strongly believe people should stand on their own two feet and suffer the consequences of their decisions.

I go to charity benefits, I tithe, I give money to beggars, I work for a nonprofit that treats troubled children, I'm looking for a good community service project to involve my family in (thinking of a soup kitchen like thing), but I will never agree that the government should take my earnings and transfer them to people who don't work as hard as I do and sacrifice / make the right choices.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:01 am

some people legitamately need those social assistance programs, and yes not all of them are american citizens, however to change what has been precedent now will cause a huge public outcry from a large number of people, its effectively giving those people a death sentence. No government official will ever change this in fear of the lash back come voting time.

Personally i think more time needs to be spent finding people who abuse other social programs, find the people taking advantage of disability, of welfare or any of the other programs out there. Sometimes people legitemately need these programs, lets not punish those people who need a hand getting back up on thier feet, however those that abuse it should be treated more severly in my opinion.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:21 pm

there is need and there is need. We need shelter, yet bums live on the streets. We need car insurance yet many drive without it. We need 3 square meals a day but you can survive on hotdogs and kraft dinner. We need equality, representation in government and personal dignity yet we'll keep living without it. We need phone service and internet. There is a huge chasm between what we need and what our govenrment believes are basic entitlements for simply being alive, US citizen or not, and you're right there will be great upheaval if it changes... so basically you have to let it get to disaster before there is the political will to change anything.

I think occasionally about how the american people are the union and how the government is Chrysler. We keep asking for more, our elected officials keep giving us more. Eventually, our future, unfunded obligations will bankrupt us just like medicare and social security are already threatening... and we want to add more entitlements?

--

I'm not sure we should try harder to find people who abuse the system. If you looked at it from a business perspective, I think you'd save a lot more money in improving efficiency and cutting unnecessary expenses. Like the 20 legislative representatives that flew to copenhagen for climate change conference that wasn't going to result in a deal? The several millions of dollars that the post office spent on a "training conference" (really it was an excuse to party) to learn detials about the union contracts. The increase in the number of 150k+ salaries for government transportation jobs (I forget the exact stats, but it was like 3 jobs in NHTSA paid over 150k in 2005 and now 700 do)?

I do hate the waste, the abuse, but the problem is that these people are generally not committing fraud, they aren't actually doing anything wrong... They have PTSD or a disability or have been certified as being unable to work... They are entitled to these services even if you and I and 99% of people would look at it and say its wrong, they followed the law and the processes. Fixing the loopholes is not going to save you a signfiicant amount of money, its going to create more laws, more bureacracy, more litigation and basically just cost you more money.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:31 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/01/healt ... l?_r=1&hpw

Good news, we're going to continue to subsidize the poor illegal immigrant's treatment. We'll at least the folks in Georgia are going to.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 1:59 pm

Kiryan, this is the thread that makes you look like an asshole, and I'm very surprised you bumped it. As I told you almost a year ago, the hospital in that article subsists off of local taxes and charitable donations. "We" are not "subsidizing" anything.

I really think you should let this thread die. It doesn't make me think very highly of you.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Sarvis » Wed Sep 01, 2010 2:38 pm

Ragorn wrote:Kiryan, this is the thread that makes you look like an asshole,


"This is the thread..." This one? As in JUST this one? Really? :?
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 01, 2010 5:29 pm

Disagreeing with my viewpoints doesn't make someone an asshole. Admitting that you'd rather see immigrants die than endure a long wait at the doctor's office is something else.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Sep 01, 2010 6:30 pm

Ragorn wrote:Kiryan, this is the thread that makes you look like an asshole, and I'm very surprised you bumped it. As I told you almost a year ago, the hospital in that article subsists off of local taxes and charitable donations. "We" are not "subsidizing" anything.

I really think you should let this thread die. It doesn't make me think very highly of you.

And as I said a year ago: 1) The hospital receives state and federal funding, period. $37.7 million period. [http://www.emory.edu/grady/budget.htm a now defunct link]

Jackass.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Wed Sep 01, 2010 9:53 pm

Ragorn on a personal level I feel sorry for anyone who has to suffer, but on a practical level it is just not right to have our property confiscated and given to someone else... especially illegal immigrants.

and ... lets go with you on its only humane to be helping these folks. The $50k a year that goes to treat 1 illegal immigrant 1 year could do a lot more good in many places in the world. If you truly want to do the most good, let these immigrants die and redirect half that money to helping people who don't already have a death sentence and aren't already breaking our laws and essentially stealing from the public systems by being here in the first place. Worldvision I think talks about $3 a day to send a kid to school and feed them in Africa. I'd much prefer to send 50k there than to provide dialysis for one dying illegal in the USA.

Some people just need to die and the circumstances are rarely fair, but thats just the way it is. We shouldn't be taking your money forcibly to save them.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 02, 2010 1:59 pm

...except, I reiterate, the hospital you're talking about is funded by philanthropic organizations backed by county taxes. Nobody is "confiscating" your property.

It's hard to tell what you're actually angry about, because it isn't anything happening at Grady Memorial Hospital.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Sep 02, 2010 2:02 pm

Hey, Kiryan, jackass probably has me on ignore. You might want to just tell him that the hospital receives nearly 38 million in federal and state funds.
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Re: Wheres the sympathy for US Citizens?

Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 03, 2010 10:48 pm

If you read the article it very briefly talks about some money coming from public sources. If the hospital is giving away charity care, but taking state money presumably to stay solvent... grady is only a middle man in giving away tax payer money. Even if thats not the case, they charge people more so they can give away charity care. There is no free moeny or free services unless the doctors are volunteering their time (which some do).

Teffie quoted an article last year that said the hospital receives $37.7 million in state and federal funding.

and if you really want to tie it back to me personally, as long as the feds are giving money to the state of GA its affecting tax payers everywhere in America. If GA was funding its medicare, education transportation on its own, ok you have a point, but if they have to take federal dollars to pay for something because they took their state dollars to fund Grady, I'm paying for it indirectly.

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