Kiryan wants to see this

Life, the universe, and everything.
Forum rules
- No personal attacks against players or staff members - please be civil!
- No posting of mature images/links, keep content SFW. If it's NSFW, don't post it on these forums.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Thilindel » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:08 pm

kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:40 pm

lol, that spot is hillarious, but attacking christian ideologies is so passe. Here is a brilliant idea, maybe they should branch out and run a spot on Muhammed. Maybe of him taking a 5 yo as his wife and having sex with her. That would be brilliant. Then I'd know they are real atheists trying to rid the world of the corruption of religion.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:47 pm

kiryan wrote:lol, that spot is hillarious, but attacking christian ideologies is so passe. Here is a brilliant idea, maybe they should branch out and run a spot on Muhammed. Maybe of him taking a 5 yo as his wife and having sex with her. That would be brilliant. Then I'd know they are real atheists trying to rid the world of the corruption of religion.


So your defense of your religion is to point out another closely related religion is worse?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 4:54 pm

I'm not defending anything, what is there to defend? Someone making fun of God? Its wrong, but the basic facts are right. Obviously no one believes thats a legitimate portrayal of God.

I'm calling you all a bunch of atheist pussies for your double standard on attacking christians and leaving islam alone.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 5:07 pm

kiryan wrote:I'm not defending anything, what is there to defend? Someone making fun of God? Its wrong, but the basic facts are right. Obviously no one believes thats a legitimate portrayal of God.

I'm calling you all a bunch of atheist pussies for your double standard on attacking christians and leaving islam alone.


When Islamics start to become the loudest voice in our society, we'll deal with them too. Until then, you're the one trying to control my life based on a book.

As for that portrayal of God? Yes, the portrayal was comedic... but that's one of the stories in the Bible isn't it? It's a legitimate event, tweaked to make the obvious apparent enough for a Christian to see it.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:13 pm

kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:19 pm

pussy. I dare you to attack islam as boldly as you do christianity.

Yes, as I said, the basic facts are right. Some significant artistic license employed when they portrayed God as a bumbling fool unsure about what he was doing and Abraham as being excited about sacrificing his son.

Tweaked to make what obvious? That God is an unsure fool and makes up shit at random and Christians are just mindless automatons who believe it? No, sorry, its just a comedic parody.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:29 pm

kiryan wrote:pussy. I dare you to attack islam as boldly as you do christianity.


You're DARING me to write a [i]bbs post[/b] attacking Islam? Wow, your standards for courage are about as high as your standards for rational thought.

Here you go: Hey all you Islamic Sojourners, your religion is nothing more than a book written by men as an attempt to control your lives. That you believe so strongly as to commit suicide when your religious leaders exalt you to only proves just how weak willed you are, and how easily you've given up your capability to think rationally.

Oddly, almost the same argument I use against Christianity.

Yes, as I said, the basic facts are right. Some significant artistic license employed when they portrayed God as a bumbling fool unsure about what he was doing and Abraham as being excited about sacrificing his son.

Tweaked to make what obvious? That God is an unsure fool and makes up shit at random and Christians are just mindless automatons who believe it? No, sorry, its just a comedic parody.


I guess it wasn't obvious enough.

God creates everything, says killing is wrong... then tells a follower to kill his son. Follower then does so, right? After all, God is the only source of moral authority. Next he'll be telling you to strap some dynamite to yourself and wander into a building full of whoever Pat Robertson doesn't like lately.
Yayaril
Sojourner
Posts: 2552
Joined: Sun Feb 18, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Green Bay, WI

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Yayaril » Thu Jan 14, 2010 6:59 pm

Jihad on Sarvis, big time!
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:04 pm

Alluhah Ackbar! Tear off the heads of the infidel!
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:37 pm

Funny thing about killing people... Murder is wrong, yet there is no commandment against war. The old testament does address war and its ok. Doesn't even have to be a holy cause. If you fight in the army of your nation to conquer another people, you're not necessarily committing a sin.

Um no Abraham does not kill Ivan, I mean Issac. The story is basically one of faith, Abraham had faith in God and trusted God despite being deeply troubled by the commandment to sacrifice his son. I don't recall Issac being overly excited about being sacrificed, he basically wasn't told until Abraham was ready to place him on the altar/pyre, but he also recognized God's soverginty. At the last minute, God tells Abraham to stop and provides a wild lamb for the sacrifice.

Have you ever had an issue with your boss or CEO where you thought they were doing something stupid? Then it turned out to be successful on its own and you were wrong about the idea OR because you simply didn't have enough information for that decision to make sense? So what do you do, demand your boss explain himself to you everytime you disagree with him before you agree to do what he tells you to?

This is a great story and is meant to teach several good lessons. Yes you can make it out to be God ordered human sacrifice... but thats twisting it for an evil purpose rather than its intended positive purpose. Just like Harry Reid's or Lott's comments are being twisted for maximum negativity despite having no real harm.

Also, Abraham came before Moses and the 10 commandments. And the old testament was supplanted by the new testament (not that they contradict each other, but the new testament would be the authority if they did). Thank you come again.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 7:52 pm

kiryan wrote:Funny thing about killing people... Murder is wrong, yet there is no commandment against war. The old testament does address war and its ok. Doesn't even have to be a holy cause. If you fight in the army of your nation to conquer another people, you're not necessarily committing a sin.


No, of course not. If you believed THAT you'd be less useful tools to the people running your life with the Bible.

Um no Abraham does not kill Ivan, I mean Issac. The story is basically one of faith, Abraham had faith in God and trusted God despite being deeply troubled by the commandment to sacrifice his son. I don't recall Issac being overly excited about being sacrificed, he basically wasn't told until Abraham was ready to place him on the altar/pyre, but he also recognized God's soverginty. At the last minute, God tells Abraham to stop and provides a wild lamb for the sacrifice.

Have you ever had an issue with your boss or CEO where you thought they were doing something stupid? Then it turned out to be successful on its own and you were wrong about the idea OR because you simply didn't have enough information for that decision to make sense? So what do you do, demand your boss explain himself to you everytime you disagree with him before you agree to do what he tells you to?

This is a great story and is meant to teach several good lessons. Yes you can make it out to be God ordered human sacrifice... but thats twisting it for an evil purpose rather than its intended positive purpose. Just like Harry Reid's or Lott's comments are being twisted for maximum negativity despite having no real harm.


Yes, of course. Be good little sheep and don't question authority. Authority is never wrong. Listen to the Church, not your self, and obey. Kill who we tell you to, but killing who you want is a sin. Be a good little slave, led around like a lamb.

Hell, priests even CALL their followers a flock. Yet you believe it's for your own benefit, rather than because you're useful livestock when you give up your mind to them.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:07 pm

you are a fucking idiot.

You are to follow the laws of your nation and if your nation goes to war, killing in the war is not necessarily a sin. its not the same as murder. That is in the Bible.

They use the flock terminology often and its based on many things none of which is that we are literally livestock. Jesus is the lamb of God... the sacrifice. A shepherd is not the master of livestock, its the protector, the care giver, the guy who had to sleep on a hill side in the fucking rain and risk his life fighting off wild animals to protect them.

You idiots all portray God as the master the ruler you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:12 pm

kiryan wrote:you are a fucking idiot.

You are to follow the laws of your nation and if your nation goes to war, killing in the war is not necessarily a sin. its not the same as murder. That is in the Bible.

They use the flock terminology often and its based on many things none of which is that we are literally livestock. Jesus is the lamb of God... the sacrifice. A shepherd is not the master of livestock, its the protector, the care giver, the guy who had to sleep on a hill side in the fucking rain and risk his life fighting off wild animals to protect them.

You idiots all portray God as the master the ruler you have no idea what the fuck you are talking about.


And then kill, skin, butcher, cook and eat the lamb. Being protected because you are useful is not the same as being cared for. Slavemasters provided food/shelter to their property too, after all.

We don't portray God as the master/ruler (though he is King of Kings, right?) but as a fictional entity used by organized religion to control people. It's effective too!



Oh, and the commandment is Thou Shalt Not Kill, not Thou Shalt Not Murder. Right?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:28 pm

Didn't realize God / Moses spoke English.

Like I said you are an idiot. You don't understand anything about the nature of God, what Christianity is actually about (vs what people say or actually do) or apparently what it is to be a shepherd then or now.
amena wolfsnarl
Sojourner
Posts: 439
Joined: Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:14 pm
Location: grande prairie alberta canada

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:37 pm

God (or Alah if thats what you perfer) gave us free will for a reason, to interpret things as we see fit. It is up to each individual to interpret the bible for themselves and try to live thier lives to thier own personal ideals. Some people read the bible and choose to disbelieve everything, and choose to disbelieve in god, that is thier choice, but seriously is there a need to attack a person based on thier religion?

I might not agree with everything that christians believe in, but i respect thier right to believe it. I also respect thier right to believe in creationism, but if they attempted to make creationism the only thing that is taught in schools than i will be upset. In england they no longer teach about the holocaust cause it offends the muslim belief that it didnt happen, i would absolutely rage at something like this.

Personally i see a lot of good in how christians families raise thier children, and how they approach a lot of things in thier lives.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Thu Jan 14, 2010 8:39 pm

kiryan wrote:Didn't realize God / Moses spoke English.


God is omniscient but might not speak English? Moses wrote the Bible?

But you're willing to trust all the translators in between, right? After all the King James Bible is the infallible word of God, isn't it?

Like I said you are an idiot. You don't understand anything about the nature of God, what Christianity is actually about (vs what people say or actually do) or apparently what it is to be a shepherd then or now.


Why is your entire defense simply an abject denial of what I said? Your belief really does boil down to plugging your ears and screaming "NO TIMES INFINITY" doesn't it?



It's truly amazing to me that you fully admit the connection to being a flock, yet have convinced yourself that a shepherd truly cares about his livestock as something more than property. No wonder it's ok for Abraham to sacrifice his son for no reason... it's just another piece of property. For all the ranting you do about people elevating animals in status, you truly believe the reverse. To you, people are nothing but animals for the Church to do with as it pleases.

Here's a nice vest, see that congregation of gays over there? Go stand in the middle. Don't mind that timer...
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:38 am

Aw, I just wanted to entertain Kiryan and poke away from politics, but now ppl got the grouchy grumpies.. and for the record I'm not athiest..I'm not any religion affiliated.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:56 am

Corth wrote:Alluhah Ackbar! Tear off the heads of the infidel!


Hrm, cerebus is an infidel? :P
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:10 am

Thilindel wrote:Aw, I just wanted to entertain Kiryan and poke away from politics, but now ppl got the grouchy grumpies.. and for the record I'm not athiest..I'm not any religion affiliated.


You really expected people to not get touchy about religion?
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Ragorn » Fri Jan 15, 2010 2:06 pm

I just think it's interesting that Christians refer to themselves as sheep, and think it's a positive thing.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:17 pm

I think its interesting that the blue party in America call themselves democrats instead of socialists and their maskot is an ass.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:23 pm

You still have no actual defense for yourself other than an attack against others? Maybe you should try pointing out Muslims are worse again, or something!
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:37 pm

Thilindel wrote:Aw, I just wanted to entertain Kiryan and poke away from politics, but now ppl got the grouchy grumpies.. and for the record I'm not athiest..I'm not any religion affiliated.


It was a hillarious video, thanks for posting it Thillindel. I did appreciate it. I thought it would be fun to point out the self serving double standard that liberals subscribe too. Attack christianity ruthlessly, but conspicuoulsly ignore Islam.

I particularly enjoyed Sarvis' dim witted response of "When Islamics start to become the loudest voice in our society, we'll deal with them too. Until then, you're the one trying to control my life based on a book." 30% or so of the worlds population is christian, 21% or so Islam (2.1 billion vs 1.5 billion people). If you want to compare religions that enslave their followers, Christianity wouldn't be at the top. Last time I checked there is a raging cultural war going on between Islam and America I don't see atheists enlisting in the army in droves to fight Islamic religious extremism, no they almost exclusively attack christianity. They can't even be bothered to support the war despite the ongoing attacks against us... despite the way these theorcracies govern their people. No atheists are by far and large a bunch of pussies that get off on trash talking Christians.

And yes Sarvis, I dare you to start ripping Islam as often as you rip christians. Do it in public too and see how uncomfortable people are about saying anything negative about Islam or Muslims. You won't get the same response ripping christians, thats acceptable.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 3:44 pm

Sarvis wrote:You still have no actual defense for yourself other than an attack against others? Maybe you should try pointing out Muslims are worse again, or something!


I still have no idea what I'm supposed to be defending. The story facts are basically accurate. I don't see any contradictions with what I believe.

See above post for more negative crap about muslims and atheists hacks who can only criticize christians.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:49 pm

kiryan wrote:It was a hillarious video, thanks for posting it Thillindel. I did appreciate it. I thought it would be fun to point out the self serving double standard that liberals subscribe too. Attack christianity ruthlessly, but conspicuoulsly ignore Islam.


Quick, tell me something about Islam other than the 72 virgins thing! No fair looking anything up on the internet, either. I want to see what you KNOW.

I particularly enjoyed Sarvis' dim witted response of "When Islamics start to become the loudest voice in our society, we'll deal with them too. Until then, you're the one trying to control my life based on a book."


Focus on the Family (anti-abortion)
American Family Association (all kinds of censorship)

I could probably come up with others. Who are the ones who complain to the FCC about every bit of partial nudity on TV?

30% or so of the worlds population is christian, 21% or so Islam (2.1 billion vs 1.5 billion people).


Do the numbers just for America. We don't live in the world, we live in America. Whatever Sheik Bombsalot says over in Kuwait really doesn't get back to me very often. If he were trying to get a law passed banning video games though, I would be badmouthing him too.

If you want to compare religions that enslave their followers, Christianity wouldn't be at the top.


Not anymore. That's mostly because of people getting tired of being sheep and starting to think on their own, though. Actually, it's mostly because our Founding Fathers were smart enough to separate Church and State. THAT is mostly because they knew how brutal things could get when they were not separate. Need a hint? Look at the Middle East.

Last time I checked there is a raging cultural war going on between Islam and America I don't see atheists


Really? Where? They occasionally make a terrorist attack against us, and that's more political than religious if you want to be honest about things. They are not particularly engaged in changing our culture. What's funny is that fundamentalist Christians actually ARE working to drag our culture back to something very similar to theirs.

enlisting in the army in droves to fight Islamic religious extremism, no they almost exclusively attack christianity. They can't even be bothered to support the war despite the ongoing attacks against us... despite the way these theorcracies govern their people. No atheists are by far and large a bunch of pussies that get off on trash talking Christians.


Ongoing attacks?


And yes Sarvis, I dare you to start ripping Islam as often as you rip christians. Do it in public too and see how uncomfortable people are about saying anything negative about Islam or Muslims. You won't get the same response ripping christians, thats acceptable.


I don't really rip on either in public, it's a sensitive subject and when I'm "in public" I'm usually with friends and just trying to have a good time.

But please go ahead and try it. Find yourself some nice fundies like yourself, and see how long until you get a violent reaction. Remember, you can talk all you want about Muslim terrorists, but Christians have been known to firebomb medical offices, lynch homosexuals and burn books.

You're just not that different. You just get the flak from us because you're closer.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 4:51 pm

kiryan wrote:
Sarvis wrote:You still have no actual defense for yourself other than an attack against others? Maybe you should try pointing out Muslims are worse again, or something!


I still have no idea what I'm supposed to be defending. The story facts are basically accurate. I don't see any contradictions with what I believe.

See above post for more negative crap about muslims and atheists hacks who can only criticize christians.


You could try defending being a sheep as a positive thing, rather than trying to attack democrats? Remember, I'm saying you're a slave to your beliefs and that your "shepherds" wrote the Bible as a means of controlling people through belief. Your defense, so far, has been to attack atheists for not saying anything about another religion and then to make fun of democrats.

How about actually making the case that your religion doesn't see you as a piece of livestock?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:09 pm

Are you not a slave to your beliefs? Isn't any intellectually honest, rational person generally going to follow their belief system whether its atheistic or religous?

I'm not going to defend the label of being a sheep or of being shepherded or of being a flock. This is like when a westernized woman goes into a muslim country and says oh my god you are so oppressed and indoctrinated because you have to wear that burqa despite that the women don't mind and actually prefer to do so and beign forced to wear a piece of clothing is hardly the worst imaginable violation of basic human rights. You can make being a sheep out to be something inferior because of how you see it for many self serving reasons to validate your belief system, but its arrogant and close minded.

I know what it is to be a sheep to be shepherded to be in the flock in the christian context and its obviously not what you think it is.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 5:23 pm

kiryan wrote:Are you not a slave to your beliefs? Isn't any intellectually honest, rational person generally going to follow their belief system whether its atheistic or religous?


The difference being I come up with mine based on learning and thought, while you just listen to what someone tells you.

I'm not going to defend the label of being a sheep or of being shepherded or of being a flock. This is like when a westernized woman goes into a muslim country and says oh my god you are so oppressed and indoctrinated because you have to wear that burqa despite that the women don't mind and actually prefer to do so and beign forced to wear a piece of clothing is hardly the worst imaginable violation of basic human rights.


The violation is that those women don't have the right to choose. I thought you valued freedom, but I guess that's only when it's convenient for your argument.

You can make being a sheep out to be something inferior because of how you see it for many self serving reasons to validate your belief system, but its arrogant and close minded.


Do you understand the point I've been making? Do you honestly think the suicide bombers in Afghanistan think anything other than that they are a well tended flock? There's a reason these religions preach that your rewards are in the afterlife, and it's NOT because they avoid putting you in harm's way.

I know what it is to be a sheep to be shepherded to be in the flock in the christian context and its obviously not what you think it is.


It's a pale shadow of what it was meant to be, I'll grant you that. In a few hundred years, we'll be saying the same about Islam.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:20 pm

The difference being I come up with mine based on learning and thought, while you just listen to what someone tells you.

I went to college and studied christian theology to make sure I really understood and agreed with my faith.

The sole basis of your claim is that because we believe God wrote the Bible and is the ultimate authority we are mindless automatons... and you call yourself independent thinking. If we called Sunday school discussion groups and Church services lectures would that make it more intelligent to you? Many christians are continuously studying and refining their udnerstanding of the bible and of their faith. We have always had splits in the church and the rise of non denominational churches over the past 30 years as a demonstration of independent thinking. Comfort yourself with just believing we are a bunch of crazies following some voice in the smoke... the truth is far scarier, we study this extensively and still believe in it.

--

Do you know that France is trying to pass a law banning full body muslim garb? Is that oppression or freedom? Schools in the US have occasionally banned headscarves in recent times... Have and continue to require uniforms in some locations and banned "offenssive and disruptive" clothing.

But you of course missed the point, instead trying to find some little inconsistency in my positions. The point of the burqa thing is that you are interpeting the concept of sheep through your world view and find that its a disparaging term one that embodies a lack of intelligence or independence. That sheep are lowly livestock herded by shepherds for gain. Its insulting to you and so you assume I'm insulted by being thought of as a sheep. Instead, consider the muslim woman who wants to wear the burqa for a variety of reasons including religious beliefs and instead is looked down upon by westerners who think they are enslaved because they themselves would never choose to wear a burqa.

For not even knowing that Abraham didn't kill Ivan, you seem to think you know an awful lot about the motivations of religious leaders and their flocks. Could it be that you just see what you want, unintelligent people with no critical thinking or reasoning because they believe in a God and you "know" there isn't one? Leaders who use their flocks for material gain because some of them do that or thats what you would do? People "enslaved" by theocratic laws irregardless that they would actually follow those same rules whether they were criminal or not?

--

No I have been having a lot of difficulty figuring out what the hell you are trying to say. So you're saying that because suicide bombers are not intelligent independent thinkers that all religious people are not independent thinkers. So are americans independent thinkers? Look at how easily they fell in lock step after 9/11 and how easily they drifted to the antiwar left when it was politically convenient for Dems to take that stance? and now swinging back right with the tired mantra of "tax and spend" democrats... do you hold the same contempt for the American sheeple, or just christians or just people who don't think independently the same way you do(n't)?
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 7:43 pm

kiryan wrote:I went to college and studied christian theology to make sure I really understood and agreed with my faith.

The sole basis of your claim is that because we believe God wrote the Bible and is the ultimate authority we are mindless automatons... and you call yourself independent thinking. If we called Sunday school discussion groups and Church services lectures would that make it more intelligent to you? Many christians are continuously studying and refining their udnerstanding of the bible and of their faith. We have always had splits in the church and the rise of non denominational churches over the past 30 years as a demonstration of independent thinking. Comfort yourself with just believing we are a bunch of crazies following some voice in the smoke... the truth is far scarier, we study this extensively and still believe in it.


Why is it that when we point out highly educated people tend to be Liberal, Conservatives say that college is just indoctrination into Liberal ideology... yet when a Christian goes to college to learn what authorities tell him the Bible says, it's considered independent thought?

Let me ask you a question Kiryan:

Thou Shalt Not Kill

Given that information, and ONLY that information, would you conclude that it is ok to kill when someone else tells you to?

Only you didn't think about that independently, you found a Bible passage that told you what the answer was. It just happens to be the answer that is more useful to anyone who might need an army one day.


Do you know that France is trying to pass a law banning full body muslim garb? Is that oppression or freedom?


Yes, it is oppression.

But you of course missed the point, instead trying to find some little inconsistency in my positions. The point of the burqa thing is that you are interpeting the concept of sheep through your world view and find that its a disparaging term one that embodies a lack of intelligence or independence. That sheep are lowly livestock herded by shepherds for gain. Its insulting to you and so you assume I'm insulted by being thought of as a sheep. Instead, consider the muslim woman who wants to wear the burqa for a variety of reasons including religious beliefs and instead is looked down upon by westerners who think they are enslaved because they themselves would never choose to wear a burqa.


You... umm... you didn't actually make a point there. Mixed metaphors are not your strong suit. Maybe your pastor can clear up your thought processes for you, and allow you to actually make a point.

I, for one, don't care what she chooses to wear as long as she has a choice. You, for some reason, are ok with her not having a choice because it's what she would choose anyway. According to you, at least. Not that you'd ever make a broad assumption based on a complete lack of knowledge or anything.

For not even knowing that Abraham didn't kill Ivan, you seem to think you know an awful lot about the motivations of religious leaders and their flocks. Could it be that you just see what you want, unintelligent people with no critical thinking or reasoning because they believe in a God and you "know" there isn't one?


I'm agnostic, by the way. I don't "know" there is no God, but I find it laughable that any religion could be considered anything other than the enacted vision of Man.

You have a sign of that right here in this discussion.

Leaders recognize it is harmful to commerce, stability and various other societal goals to have people killing each other... so Thou Shalt Not Kill

Leaders also recognize that people NEED to kill in order to gain resources, protect borders and other things so even though not killing is one of the 10 most important rules in the Bible... it's ok when THEY say it is.

Leaders who use their flocks for material gain because some of them do that or thats what you would do? People "enslaved" by theocratic laws irregardless that they would actually follow those same rules whether they were criminal or not?


Because there are tons of examples of it happening in history.

Tithing? Crusades? Inquisition? Bombing abortion clinics? Protesting soldiers' funerals?

Do you not help out your church when they need volunteers for bake sales? For that matter, why do churches need bake sales while the Pope sits on untold wealth?

No I have been having a lot of difficulty figuring out what the hell you are trying to say. So you're saying that because suicide bombers are not intelligent independent thinkers that all religious people are not independent thinkers. So are americans independent thinkers? Look at how easily they fell in lock step after 9/11


Especially the Christians who believed that God wanted them to go to war with Iraq. Remember, killing is wrong except when your leader (Bush) says so, and if he invokes God then so much the better!


and how easily they drifted to the antiwar left when it was politically convenient for Dems to take that stance?


Politically convenient? Most liberals were anti-war right from the start. If the democratic leadership was NOT, then it shows how we think independently from our leaders, doesn't it?

and now swinging back right with the tired mantra of "tax and spend" democrats... do you hold the same contempt for the American sheeple, or just christians or just people who don't think independently the same way you do(n't)?


Believe me, I'm none to happy with peoples' opinions being so easily swayed by the letter in front of someone's name. However, that's a completely different argument isn't it?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:31 pm

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009 ... poll_N.htm

Did the United States make a mistake in sending military forces to Afghanistan?

November 2001:

Yes 9%, No, 89%

I guess that 9% was the independent liberals?

In 2006 they were trying to pull out of Afghanistan and trying to block Bush from winning in Iraq? In 2009 they won landslides in the election on the antiwar platform... Whats stopping them? Oh yea, Obama that not independent thinker declared Afghanistan a war of necessity. pat yourselves on the back.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 8:44 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2009-03-16-poll_N.htm

Did the United States make a mistake in sending military forces to Afghanistan?


993 adults... somehow, that doesn't seem like large enough of a sample to be representative.

November 2001:

Yes 9%, No, 89%

I guess that 9% was the independent liberals?

In 2006 they were trying to pull out of Afghanistan and trying to block Bush from winning in Iraq? In 2009 they won landslides in the election on the antiwar platform... Whats stopping them? Oh yea, Obama that not independent thinker declared Afghanistan a war of necessity. pat yourselves on the back.


Funny, though, that you are focusing on Afghanistan instead of Iraq.

Even funnier that you're trying to change this to a political debate rather than explain, using your OWN reasoning, why it is not ok to kill unless a leader tells you to.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:01 pm

I like George Carlin's commandments:

The last one says 'thou shalt keep thy religion to thyself'

anything beyond that is one trying to bully another in my opinion.

1. treat others how you would like to be treated
2. don't cheat or lie *and with all the sex diseases - don't be promiscuous*

unlike carlin's list, these satisfy anything. you wouldn't kill if you wanted someone else to kill you, etc.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:23 pm

ok. didn't realize you were still stuck on murder vs war. Heres a quote from my earlier post.

"Funny thing about killing people... Murder is wrong, yet there is no commandment against war. The old testament does address war and its ok. Doesn't even have to be a holy cause. If you fight in the army of your nation to conquer another people, you're not necessarily committing a sin."

I thoguht I also posted something about the bible not being written in english. Depending on who you listen to, the translation of the 6th commandment, ostensibly known as thou shalt not kill, should probably really say thou shalt not murder. Some translations have murder, some have kill. You can argue that the ancient hebrew had one word for die, (to cause death basically) and no separate word for murder vs accidently spooking a horse who trampled a child to death...

6.2 seconds on google. http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/do ... ommand.htm
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:26 pm

oh your right, miswrote that, in 2006 they were trying to lose the war in iraq by saying they needed more troops in afghanistan and that bush had taken his eye off the ball.

and 993 people is a fair amount, but even if its not entirely accurate (which I actually think its probably pretty close) what are the chances that its way off in the complete opposite direction?

there is soemthing called the mil standards in statistical / quality analysis. It basically outlines how many samples of a lot you have to take in order to predict the overall to within a certain tolerance. You'd be surprised at how few samples you have to take to gauge a fairly large sample size. Course sampling a shipment of screws is not the same as sampling the public, but again what are the chances that this poll is that far off.. lets say its 75% pro war... thats still an overwhelming majority that has to include at least 50% of the democrats.

John Kerry said it exactly right, he was for the war before he was against it and so was the american public and most of the democrats and all of the republicans.
Last edited by kiryan on Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:27 pm

kiryan wrote:ok. didn't realize you were still stuck on murder vs war. Heres a quote from my earlier post.

"Funny thing about killing people... Murder is wrong, yet there is no commandment against war. The old testament does address war and its ok. Doesn't even have to be a holy cause. If you fight in the army of your nation to conquer another people, you're not necessarily committing a sin."

I thoguht I also posted something about the bible not being written in english. Depending on who you listen to, the translation of the 6th commandment, ostensibly known as thou shalt not kill, should probably really say thou shalt not murder. Some translations have murder, some have kill. You can argue that the ancient hebrew had one word for die, (to cause death basically) and no separate word for murder vs accidently spooking a horse who trampled a child to death...

6.2 seconds on google. http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/do ... ommand.htm


None of that shows any of your own thought on the matter. You regurgitated what the Bible said and a link to the difficulties of translation.

Why is it not ok to kill unless you are ordered to?

Do this without referencing the Bible if you actually want to prove you are not a sheep.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:50 pm

I really don't understand that you need me to explain the differences between self defense, being in the army of a country that respects human life and rights vs one that conquers for wealth vs a jihadist blowing up a market place of civilians.

I'm not going to try and prove that its right or wrong to kill without the bible. right or wrong is defined in the context of your belief system. Its like trying to prove blue is not purple without a spectrometer and a dictionary that says blue is light in the range of x y and z. I could sit here and say the sky is purple all day long. I could attempt to prove it in terms of benefit of society and cooperation, but thats not my world view and it may or may not be yours. Your challenge is nonsensical. Under survival of the fittest, murder would be a redeeming evolutionary trait assuming your fellow beings didn't gang up on you.

But I am a sheep sarvis, and proud of it. I wish I was more like the lamb of God than I actually am.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 9:58 pm

kiryan wrote:I really don't understand that you need me to explain the differences between self defense, being in the army of a country that respects human life and rights vs one that conquers for wealth vs a jihadist blowing up a market place of civilians.


Do any of those distinctions matter? Thou Shalt Not Kill. It's not "Thou shalt not kill unless..."

I'm not going to try and prove that its right or wrong to kill without the bible.


Because you can't. Because it would require you to actually think, instead of admit that the Bible told you what to think.


Your challenge is nonsensical. Under survival of the fittest, murder would be a redeeming evolutionary trait assuming your fellow beings didn't gang up on you.


Would it? You don't generally see pack animals committing murder, for some reason...

But I am a sheep sarvis, and proud of it. I wish I was more like the lamb of God than I actually am.


So then, part of a stew?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:28 pm

sarvis one last time. there is no complete prohibition on causing death in the bible. thou shalt not kill is a translation, arguably erroneous or overly vague. There are a few verses in teh bible that OK killing even if its not the ideal. you're asking me to prove a statement in the bible is right or wrong without using the bible. Either that you are asking me to independently prove something that is self evident and does not require "independent thinking". you know fuk it.

killing someone for their watch is wrong because you are doing it to take their material posessions. your inserting your selfish desires over their personal desire to live.
killing someone who is trying to kill you is not wrong because the alternative is your death
killing someone because you are in the army and at war is not wrong because its a form of self defense and the need to support a collective that you rely on (whether its family, clan or government whether thats directly for food or social)
killing someone because you are in the army and at war because you want slave labor or mineral resources is questionable tending towards wrong.
killing someone because you are in the army and at war over religion or politics is wrong.
killing someone because you are in the army and at war and you want to rape some guys daughter or they looked at you funny is wrong.
blowing yourself up in a marketplace is wrong because the purpose of it is to sow terror and weaken the enemies resolve by attacking innocents mostly women and children.
blowing yourself up in a marketplace that materially damages an armies logistics is questionable or one that has soldiers mixed in with civilians.

gotta go otherwise I'd add more.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 10:43 pm

kiryan wrote:killing someone for their watch is wrong because you are doing it to take their material posessions. your inserting your selfish desires over their personal desire to live.


WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK WAR IS!
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:35 pm

whatever
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Fri Jan 15, 2010 11:48 pm

Sorry Kiryan, but 90% of the time war is about capturing resources. Usually land. You can NOT say that it's wrong for one person to kill another for a piece of property, but that it IS good for one person to kill another so that a government to take a piece of property.

The Bible does so, however, because the people who wrote it needed soldiers who wouldn't kill each other.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 16, 2010 5:26 am

Sarvis wrote:When Islamics start to become the loudest voice in our society, we'll deal with them too.


9/11

Atheists don't identifiably and openly attack Islam because the whole concept of attacking people's faith is nothing short of pathetic.

In true form, atheists that attack religion only attack those religions that render them no ill consequences, which pretty much sums up their devotion and commitment.

That is to say: none.

In fact, atheists that blindly attack Christianity actually join the Muslims that seek to do the same. But hey, someone's got to be at the bottom of the idealogical barrel.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Sat Jan 16, 2010 10:26 am

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:When Islamics start to become the loudest voice in our society, we'll deal with them too.


9/11


Yes, Bush did constantly repeat that mantra to rally the Christian's into re-electing him.


Atheists don't identifiably and openly attack Islam because the whole concept of attacking people's faith is nothing short of pathetic.

In true form, atheists that attack religion only attack those religions that render them no ill consequences, which pretty much sums up their devotion and commitment.

That is to say: none.

In fact, atheists that blindly attack Christianity actually join the Muslims that seek to do the same. But hey, someone's got to be at the bottom of the idealogical barrel.


Huh? Again, when Islamic PACs start advocating policy in this country, we'll care. Until then they are just "yet another group of foreigners who want to blow us up." There's nothing there for us to argue against.
Kifle
Sojourner
Posts: 3830
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Huntington, IN USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Kifle » Sun Jan 17, 2010 9:13 am

Fuck! I'm I too late for the Jihad?
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:31 am

Sarvis wrote:The Bible does so, however, because the people who wrote it needed soldiers who wouldn't kill each other.


Again, given your demonstrated lack of comprehension of the bible culiminating most recently with not even knowing whether Abraham actually sacrificed Ivan or not... I'm going to chalk this incredibly ignorant statement up to you needing it to be that so you can keep ignoring the turth of God and the Bible. Rage on my holacaust denying friend. Truth will eventually hit you square in the face, whether now or at judgment.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 18, 2010 6:34 am

kiryan wrote:
Sarvis wrote:The Bible does so, however, because the people who wrote it needed soldiers who wouldn't kill each other.


Again, given your demonstrated lack of comprehension of the bible culiminating most recently with not even knowing whether Abraham actually sacrificed Ivan or not... I'm going to chalk this incredibly ignorant statement up to you needing it to be that so you can keep ignoring the turth of God and the Bible. Rage on my holacaust denying friend. Truth will eventually hit you square in the face, whether now or at judgment.


Still no explanation? No attempt at reconciliation?

You are refusing to think. I shouldn't be surprised, I guess.

The Bible says do not kill. The Bible says kill when told to by a leader.

Think that through for a few minutes, rather than just spitting the venom you're becoming known for.

This is the same fucking bastardized teaching that lets you say you have compassion for a sinner while being glad he was crushed to death in some rubble.

Frankly you don't understand logic. You don't understand compassion. You don't understand being fucking human. You're guided by a voice in your head that I'm almost certain we will find out, at "judgement" is not what you think it is.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 7:00 am

There is nothing to reconcile the bible's teachings are consistent.

The bible doesn't say kill when you are told to. It says its not necessarily a sin to kill under certain circumstances.

I don't think you can justify being "glad" someone died in the bible unless you are reveling in the belief they are with the father. I'm not even sure its christian to pray for someone to die (if its god's will) like that pastor is doing on Obama. Its pretty bold and seems very dangerous.

I understand logic perfectly well, I just am not ruled by it. I find your comment about not understanding what it is to be human funny. Being ruled by logic would be basically being a robot. I studied a little eastern thought paying close attention to their ability to maintain contradictory views and its effect on their society. My conclusion is that they are genuinely happier while western society goes around furiously trying to make every aspect of their society fair and consistent.

Well at least your only almost certain. I figure the harder you fight, the more time you spend thinking about it, the more likely you will someday question your views and want to actually investigate the so called truth of the Bible instead of just regurgitating selfserving philosophies that make your life make sense. When it happens just remember that I knew it would and you were so sure.
Sarvis
Sojourner
Posts: 6369
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Re: Kiryan wants to see this

Postby Sarvis » Mon Jan 18, 2010 5:03 pm

kiryan wrote:There is nothing to reconcile the bible's teachings are consistent.

The bible doesn't say kill when you are told to. It says its not necessarily a sin to kill under certain circumstances.

I don't think you can justify being "glad" someone died in the bible unless you are reveling in the belief they are with the father. I'm not even sure its christian to pray for someone to die (if its god's will) like that pastor is doing on Obama. Its pretty bold and seems very dangerous.

I understand logic perfectly well, I just am not ruled by it. I find your comment about not understanding what it is to be human funny. Being ruled by logic would be basically being a robot. I studied a little eastern thought paying close attention to their ability to maintain contradictory views and its effect on their society. My conclusion is that they are genuinely happier while western society goes around furiously trying to make every aspect of their society fair and consistent.

Well at least your only almost certain. I figure the harder you fight, the more time you spend thinking about it, the more likely you will someday question your views and want to actually investigate the so called truth of the Bible instead of just regurgitating selfserving philosophies that make your life make sense. When it happens just remember that I knew it would and you were so sure.



Is that the only Commandment that gets a pass?

I mean, is it ok to covet your neighbors wife under some circumstances?
To steal?
What about bearing false witness? Maybe it's ok to do that in self defence?
What about having another God before God?

Or is killing the only Commandment that can be broken under circumstances that are useful to your rulers?

Return to “T2 General Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests