Jesus guns!

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kiryan
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Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 19, 2010 5:47 pm

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/slideshow?id=9580847

scope manufacturer put bible verses on them and the military bought them.

What I want to address is the criticism of the company and the military. THe company was completely within their rights to inscribe whatever they want on their product. Just like I get a bunch of enviroreligious crap on half the shit I buy.

I think its obvious the military had no idea there were bible verses inscribed on the scopes. It should be investigated and if decision makers were aware, their heads should roll. Thank God this happened under Obama and not Bush (probably will be traced back to a Bush era decision though *snap*). Look forward to a new line item in every military/government contract stating that no religious garnish is to be incorporated into the design or packaging.

This is an absolute disaster strategically for the military fighting two wars against religious zealots who are relatopively posed to Christianity.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:38 am

Image
BTW, the contract was signed in 2005... under Bush ;)
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:28 am

(sigh of course it was)
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Lorendel Ebonmist » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:53 am

I was reading this Blog, then noticed the one on tBBS. Normally I dont like to bring my 5 cents
to the mud boards on RL issues. Maybe I'm just not very opionated.....

However felt compelled to say something in this instance....

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badas ... ck-it-out/

My Favorite Comment from the above Blog...
89. Bruce Says:
January 19th, 2010 at 8:44 pm
1. Trijicon has been doing this for years. Why didn’t the military complain before contracting with them?
2. How does this violate the Constitution? “Separation of Church and State?” That’s not in the Constitution. It was from a letter that Thomas Jefferson wrote, not the Constitution.
3. The scopes amplify the incoming light. If you read the referenced bible quotes (wear gloves Phil, so you won’t burn your hands) you’ll see they refer to LIGHT.
4. Scrape off the inscriptions? Of course, suppress any opinion that you don’t agree with. Remember that the next time the antivaxxers do it.
5. Publicly humiliate the company? Nice. They make equipment that helps our troops fight for our freedom. Remember that while you’re writing your next blog entry, and thank our troops for your freedom to do that.
It’s fine if you’re not religious, but your animosity towards people who are religious is just pathetic.

WHAT IF it had some quote from a Beatle song on it...

Images of broken light which dance before me like a million eyes,
They call me on and on across the universe,
Thoughts meander like a restless wind inside a letter box
They tumble blindly as they make their way
Across the universe
Jai guru deva, om,
Nothing's gonna change my world,
Jai Guru Deva means "Victory to God"
and "Om" is a word used when meditation but it emcompasses the spiritual world, its representative of earth, nature, the sun, and being one with the universe.

or even...
The "Blackbird fly into the light of a dark black night" certainly suggests the light one sees when approaching death. Other lines from the song seem to symbolize a hope for an afterlife, such as "take these sunken eyes and learn to see."
The "blackbird singing in the dead of night" symbolizes death. Lines like "take these sunken eyes and learn to see," and "take these broken wings and learn to fly" suggest a restoration to come in the afterlife. "All your life, you were only waiting for this moment to be free" suggests that life is a struggle for the release that comes with death. "Blackbird fly into the light of a dark black night" may refer to the light people see when about to die.
People are very religious about the music they listen to ...they are FANatical about it....
Despite the guff Lennon took...the Beatles REALLY are more popular than Jesus Christ, especially nowadays, when being a christian is one of the worst labels you can apply to someone....
Ultimately there is a DCASR (Defense Contract Administration Services Region) QA/QC
Rep (under Defense Supply and Logistics of the DOD) who didnt properly carry out his inspection of the equipment...the blueprints we drawn up if the embossment was not on the bluepring the contract should have been rejected.
For 30 years my father was the second in charge for the Defense Supply and Logistics Agency in the DCASR Ohio Region (Cleveland Office)...retired a GS-16 , step 6.
Personally though I think the best way to fight (un)holy jihadists is with Christian Crusaders...
but thats just me. The reference is obviously not there to try to convert Islamics to Christianity, not anyone for that matter....anymore than the Marine Corp Bedtime Prayer from Full Metal Jacket is to be percieved as Missionary or Evangelical or Convertionism in nature. If the quote had been inscribed with no aluding to a bible passage, it would only have been called a Logo or marketing hook for that particular Model of scope...Im sure if I took the time to look, I could find plenty of jingles, taglines, mottos, marketing ploys, songs used in commercials, that have possible biblical allusions. Off the Top of My Head : hrm...Army of One...Didnt King David father of Solomon stand on several occassions, just one man against the multitudes...surrounded by his enemies on all sides...*SHUDDER*
how dare they suggest ......
This whole discussion only reinforces my thoughts on the enormity of time, resources, brain power ( what little of most of you have to begin with), and act as a distraction to addressing the reals issues that need to be discussed and acted upon....
I especially like the attacks of the Ad Hominen posters...well it is a Michigan Company...*grin*
*In your face, dusting the lint off your shoulder* " That's Right we ARE dangerous.." *grin*
Just remeber that when you try to come get our water you desert-rat dwelling thirsty..nomads!
Anyways, "I dont see what the big fucking deal is Bish" (I cant believe I spent any time even expressing my view on this, [Disclaimer: Not my entire View--you dont want that]
But I am glad that Kiryan is here to try to enlighten some folks and usually applaud his efforts!
I dont usually read anything in General Discussion just seeing the Headlines and knowing you are here carrying out the "awareness" campaigns please me to no end---keep up the good work!


PS: had a 4 hour tooth extraction this morning and the 7500 mg Vicodins are working great! So if this post seems disoriented....its because "I feel Fine"
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:28 pm

I agree with some of your post... but I think theres a difference between religious symbolism in your military (the source and most direct manifestation of power) and say having Christmas trees at the capitol building. I don't think a nativity in a public place (like the seats of government) is a violation of separation of church and state, but I do think having a picture of Jesus in your courtroom or behind the desk in the oval office would be...

One is for the public, the other is an official statement. One would think the military is clearly at fault for not noticing the inscriptions, but the company should've been upfront about the fact that they were there instead of "hiding" their inscriptions. The act of hiding them may be the grounds for a successful legal case despite having formal "acceptance" documents of the plans / shipments. If they get sued, I think it would be perfectly valid even though I'd personally be disappointed.

I firmly disagree with the notion that the best way to fight islamist terrorists is with christian crusaders. We've been through the dark ages and I think complete power was very unhealthy for the church. Its easy to see how Israel went astray constantly in the old testament when you look at what Christians did over the next 1500 years after Christ. I'd also point out that the Jews lived under someone else's rule for generations... "freedom" is not a pre-requisite for God's church or his kingdom; look at the situations in the bible where believers risked death rather than follow a law that was contrary to God's law. Note, they didn't foment a rebellion, they accepted the consequences of disobediance to the law of the land. There is very little justification for waging holy war in the Bible in my opinion. As a matter of fact, its only through prayer and following God that his people were ever delivered.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby ssar » Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:49 pm

Lol, they should have etched satanic quotes on the scopes.

Or how about a random selection from:
Religious,
Political,
Satanic,
Love & Peace,
Prose,
etc.

Or just: "Have gun. Will Kill."
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:41 pm

Ragorn wrote:[BTW, the contract was signed in 2005... under Bush ;)

Continued by the Christian Obama? Hey, wasn't Gitmo supposed to be shut down by now?
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:08 am

An American Soldier stands alone in a cold night, looking over a field he had just landed in, holding tightly in a bundle what was his parachute that he wrapped close to his body for warmth. He had lost his rifle, still surprised that he had landed to the ground unharmed, as so many of the brothers he had only gotten to know in the last few years had not. From out of nowhere, a voice spoke to him, causing the young man to fall flat to the ground and peer out into the darkness.

"Son, you are going to die tonight."

He became confused and strained to see where the voice was coming from. Was it the voice of the almighty creator? Or of his own wild delusions? He could not tell, but did not move.

"I'm sorry, but this is the end of the road for you. There is nothing that you can do about it."

The voice spoke with a somber finality that the soldier understood it to be true in his heart. He had been in tight spots for his country before, but he never understand why he made it this far, but the guy standing next to him did not. The soldier spoke:

I don't understand, why are you telling me this?

"Because, you will have to complete your mission."

The soldier did not understand. If he would die that night, he would not see his mission be complete. He struggled to find some meaning in the words he had been given. He was a religious person, and accepted that he had to try to do what he could to keep his family and his nation safe, even if it meant his end.

So he prayed. He asked for forgiveness of his transgressions, and for the courage and strength to do what he knew to be right.

"You will have to leave that behind."

The young soldier knew that the voice was speaking about the religious protection trinket he had in his pocket. He was afraid, he dared to ask why.

"Because, your mission now requires it."

The soldier took his religious trinket and threw it far from him into the night because the voice told him to. Before he could think about what just happened, the voice spoke again.

"The phrase you keep in the bottom of your boot, you cannot take that with you as well."

The soldier knew the religious phrase he kept on a torn piece of paper in his boot well. It was something his mother had said over his crib to protect him from harm. It was the chant that his family quietly whispered over the hospital bed of his grandfather. What was left of his heart already torn by war and destruction, broke as he unlaced his boots, crushed by the cruelty of the voice that tested his very soul.

He folded the paper very carefully and with his hands, he broke the frozen ground, tearing his skin and nails as he carefully buried his strength.

I don't understand, I don't understand why you have to take that away.

"Because the mission now requires it."

The soldier wanted to argue, he wanted to ask who said what the mission was, he wanted to know how they could be so callous as to take away what he was as he was giving his very life to defend them from the same indignity and harm.

He wanted to protest, but he had not left the strength. He knew he would die tonight and reserved his final strength to seeing his mission through. He stood, preparing for what he needed to do for his country. For his family. For all the people who were his neighbors, strangers he never met, and all those who enjoy liberty. He took off his helmet, letting it drop upturned to the cold, hard ground, then took off into the darkness.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Todrael » Sat Jan 30, 2010 3:21 am

"Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth into battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with their little children to wander unfriended in the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames in summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it --

For our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimmage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet!

We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen."

From The War Prayer, by Mark Twain.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 31, 2010 6:44 am

Servicemen and servicewomen of the United States Armed forces are human beings. With their sacrifice, they have a right to their religious beliefs, a right they have fought to earn not just for themselves but for the rest of us that have that religious freedom at home.

To take away all comfort that religion can provide our soldiers in the line of fire is nothing short of cruel. No matter what the mission is and no matter what anybody anywhere in the world thinks, our nation should defend that freedom of religion for those of us that believe in our country and serve it so faithfully.

While it is probably best to procure and issue equipment without any religiously inspired markings, it should be a crime to force an American soldier to remove what amounts to a small piece of religious comfort and religious dignity in a discrete form from their personal equipment, the same as it would be to force a family remove a mezuzah from their doorway, a bible from their home, or a hamsa from their necks.

The soldier has a right to their faith. It does not make them a zealot missionary come to convert by the gun. If anything, it makes them more human and you really don't want to take that away. For those of you wondering what the short story was in my previous post, I was highlighting the sheer and utter cruelty of stripping a volunteer of what small pieces of comfort they bring with them into some of the most hellish places on earth.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Sarvis » Sun Jan 31, 2010 3:51 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Servicemen and servicewomen of the United States Armed forces are human beings. With their sacrifice, they have a right to their religious beliefs,


By which you mean shoving Christianity down their throats regardless of what they ACTUALLY believe themselves?
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Todrael » Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:49 pm

teflor the ranger wrote: For those of you wondering what the short story was in my previous post, I was highlighting the sheer and utter cruelty of stripping a volunteer of what small pieces of comfort they bring with them into some of the most hellish places on earth.

And Mark Twain was trying to point out the absurdity of mixing war and religion, especially when they have a core message of peace.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:38 pm

Todrael wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote: For those of you wondering what the short story was in my previous post, I was highlighting the sheer and utter cruelty of stripping a volunteer of what small pieces of comfort they bring with them into some of the most hellish places on earth.

And Mark Twain was trying to point out the absurdity of mixing war and religion, especially when they have a core message of peace.

Unfortunately, this has no relevance in the core principle of respecting the religion of the individual United States serviceperson. No mixing is proposed, the soldier is a human being and has a right to their own religion. Period.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Servicemen and servicewomen of the United States Armed forces are human beings. With their sacrifice, they have a right to their religious beliefs,


By which you mean shoving Christianity down their throats regardless of what they ACTUALLY believe themselves?

No.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:38 pm

hmm... You lose some of your rights when you agree to be a member of the armed services. You are the direct manifestation of US power and given religion's propensity for polarization, I think its prudent to minimize outward displays.

I find no necessary conflict between following God and not carrying religious paraphenalia in times of war or mission whether its notes in your boot or a cross pendant while in the field. Losing any of these should not constitue any kind of a blow to their practice or faith and the fact that it is a perceived blow to their psyche says more about them than it does any debate of religious freedom.

The situation portrayed was obviously a very trying one and we all would wish that soldier comfort in face of the certain death of his mission... but I think its unreasonable to use this as an argument pro religious symbols. In the situation that one's religion does require something that is not permissible under separation of church and state or inclusion of these members gives the forces a negative image, these members should be not be allowed to join the armed forces. The army is not here to cater to your whims as an equal opportunity employer, whether you are a religious zealot that has to tattoo crosses on their face or a white supremacists. Military is a tool of the government; it, and soldiers, are literally government property.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:45 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:Servicemen and servicewomen of the United States Armed forces are human beings. With their sacrifice, they have a right to their religious beliefs,


By which you mean shoving Christianity down their throats regardless of what they ACTUALLY believe themselves?

No.


So what do you call it when Christian scripture is placed on the equipment of a Scientologist? Is that respecting their right to their religious belief?
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:13 pm

thats called i made it, you bought it. if you don't like my symbolism, don't buy my product.

that argument is like that whole stupid, grocery stores are discriminating against my choice to eat good organic food by carrying mostly low priced junk food. get some perspective.
Last edited by kiryan on Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:15 pm

kiryan wrote:thats called i made it, you bought it. if you don't like my symbolism, don't buy my product.


Really? Soldier's purchase their own equipment?
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:27 pm

You know we had a huge debate in the christian church for a while and probably still goes on today over "do not cause your brother to stumble". It ranged from Christians being unwilling to say anything was wrong or even show that they disapproved of others conduct or to engage in activites (such as drinking). Ultimately, I think for most we came to the place where me drinking is not causing interpreted as causing you to stumble even if you are an alcoholic. If you go out of your way to encourage a known alcoholic to drink thats something different, but normal behavior is normal behavior.

If I have to put up with having feminism, climate changism and homoism shoved down my throat in public, at school and on my TV, I think you can put up with shooting a weapon that has a hidden and relatively innocuous religious reference. They aren't being asked to pledge their allegiance to God by shooting Jesus guns. I'm not supporting the inscriptions on the guns, but no one's rights were infringed upon despite how bloody the heart is on their sleeves and there is still a separation between church and state under which this does not qualify as a significant if any violation of that.

I'm plenty willing to support your position as soon as you agree that Will and Grace is shoving feminist and homosexual ideals down my throat.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 01, 2010 8:29 pm

kiryan wrote:I'm plenty willing to support your position as soon as you agree that Will and Grace is shoving feminist and homosexual ideals down my throat.


Soldier's HAVE to use the equipment they are issued. No one forces you to watch Will and Grace.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:04 pm

Firstly, if they even noticed it was there, or even discovered that there might have been a link to scripture, there's always the use of a file. But go ahead, make a mountain out of a molehill. My posting in this thread is to defend religious freedom for our soldiers, not the manufacturer's actions.

Many of the people I have heard chime in on this discussion focus on and harp on "what if muslims find personal equipment with christian religious symbols."

My answer is that it's going to make it harder for us to win hearts and minds - but that is just what is going to have to happen because the serviceperson has a right to their beliefs.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the fact that I acknowledged that it was probably best to procure and issue equipment without any religious symbolism, but go ahead and try to create a conflict that doesn't exist. Troll on Sarvis.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:08 pm

kiryan wrote:You are the direct manifestation of US power and given religion's propensity for polarization, I think its prudent to minimize outward displays.

teflor the ranger wrote:in a discrete form
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 01, 2010 10:23 pm

Soldiers VOLUNTEER to join the armed forces and BECOME GOVERNMENT PROPERTY in a very literal sense. (a solider was court marshaled for "damaging government property" by getting a sunburn). They are no longer entitled to all the same rights a regular citizen is.

and regardless, its a mountain out of a speck of dust.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:10 am

kiryan wrote:They are no longer entitled to all the same rights a regular citizen is.

A completely irrelevant point. Soldiers have a right to their religious beliefs and reasonable expressions, including discrete articles of faith.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:14 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35188048/ns/us_news-faith/

Oh no, a government issued druidic prayer circle. Damn US druidic missionaries come to convert by the sword!
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Lorendel Ebonmist » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:15 pm

A couple things I would like to say:

Being a member of the military does, to a certain extent make YOU "Government Porperty".
However, the US Constitution supercedes, as your inalienable rights to practice whatever religion(s) you so choose to follow.

In bootcamp, the military MUST provide you with the appropriate minsters, priests, etc. of a like religious faith as you follow, on designated (as per the tenets of your individual faith) days of worship.

This means, Catholic Priests are brought in from the Chaplain Corps, Baptist Chaplains are brought in for those who are Baptists, Lutherans Chaplains for Lutherans and so on. IF a prospective Chaplain Represenative, dedicated to YOUR religion is not on base and is not represented by the Chaplain Corp you are based at, the proper CIVILIAN religious figurehead WILL be procurred from the surrounding area, in order for you to practice the religion of your choice.

This INCLUDES (and i have seen this personally) If you are a Satanist, they MUST procur a Priest of Satan to conduct your religious ceremony, If you are a Wiccan, they MUST procur A Wiccan Preist to conduct your religious ceremony, even if your are the only one in attendance.

Being a Sailor/Soldier does not take away your right to practice religious freedom.
I was in bootcamp with both a wiccan and a satanist, and they brought in the respective religious figures to conduct service for those individuals. Bootcamp was not easy for them. But there is no constitutional protection from Assholes, thats just part of life.....deal with it.

In bootcamp and at duty stations there are 2 pieces of jewlery that are allowed.
#1 a wedding ring #2 a single religious symbol of your faith (whether it be a cross, an inverted cross, a star of david, or whatever!)

Not to mention "dogtags" not only have your Name Rank and Serial # (SS# nowadays) but also your Blood Type, it states your religion OF CHOICE (so they now how do bury you or in case you need Last Rites) [Dogtags are still worn into battle as far as I know] They also state whether you have elected to be an organ donor or not. (Being an organ donor is sacrilege to some religions, and could be perceived as a personal affront to an enemy if faced with knowledge that your organs may be donated post-autopsy...too effin bad for them).

The enemy we are currently fighting apparently detests many of the freedoms America's and her Allies enjoy.
We are there fighting tyranny, oppression, supression. The fact that our soldiers can and do live in an atmosphere of free choice IS NOT a facet of our cultural that I believe needs to be surpressed. In fact with great celebration and show of how different peoples can come together and act towards a common goal, IS one of the many facets of Western Civilian we are trying to bring to these troubled suppressed peoples. Censoring religious freedom abroad, could, as easily display a lack of conviction in the principles we would endeavor to bring to these people. We DO NOT forceable seek converts. We DO NOT tell them worship our Gods or we will cut your head off. We ARE giving them the OPPURTUNITY, to make a choice for themselves.

By taking away the inalienable rights of our soldiers, we are shooting ourselves in the foot with our own Jesus Guns. A better approach, imho, would be to allow soldiers to requisition equipment embossed with an acronym pertinent to their religion, as they put their lives on the line in the most ultimate of sacrifices.

Now for my second point:

Seperation of Church and State and just exactly what that means or what was intended by the Founding Fathers.

Take a look at the preambles to each state's Constitution. Seperation does not mean devoid of. It more exactly and as was intended means that their be no Centrally Govt ran/required religion (ie The Church of England) It DOES NOT mean nor equate to anything close to Godlessness in Politics and Government.

Every state in its Contituiton's Preamble mention "God" or the "Lord" at least 3 times, in some cases more.
If I recall correctly there are only 2 or 3 states which do not. The subject of Seperation of Church and State has been misconstrued, convulted, and reshaped by those enemies of Democracy that would seek to destroy the United States from within through immoral ineptitudes and corruptions. ("Without firing a shot")

Im not gonna expound of this any further at this point. Look it up. Take a good look, as best you can wrap your understanding around it, at the unhidden, blatant agendas of the enemies of Freedom. If you look , you shall see, for they blatantly post their agendas, for the recipes of the Destruction of America and Democray and Freedom, on their websites, in their literature and rhetoric. Study your enemy. They are not hiding their intentions at all. Visit the websites of the Communist Party, Aljezera (sp?), Socialists, Facists etc.

If you think we do not have enemies, if you think this is a delirious, paranoid view...then you haven't look into the minds of the opposition. I suggest you do.
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 02, 2010 11:56 pm

Thanks for the post, you persuaded me.

I knew about the ministers and stuff, but I was particularly compelled by the argument that America is strong because of the freedom to pratice whichever religion you choose. That people of many different religions can come together and operate as a team to accomplish the nations' work. That purging religion is taking the focus off of working together through our differences and instead is centered on presenting an appearance of impartiality that is not realistic.

However, it is still disrespectful to "force" Jesus guns on people who practice other religions or no religion. On the other hand, if the company refused to change, and it was the best equipment at the cheapest price, I think the government can issue them to their soldiers. Separation of church and state shouldn't take priority over having the best equipment, training and fiscal practices. What if one soldier blesses your gun in the name of Jesus, can you now demand a new rifle? Or if someone at the factory sprinkles the weapon with holy water...
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby Ragorn » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:48 am

I think you need to keep this in perspective. Even I can't be offended by the abbreviation of a bible verse being used as the serial number on a US military rifle. To be offended by this is obnoxiously pedantic.

Ironically, I doubt Jesus himself would have approved of his message being stamped on implements of war and death. But hey, history is replete with Christians who have outwardly proclaimed their love for Christ while selling graven images in his name.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:02 pm

Kiryan,

The government does regulate religious activities and symbols in the general population and within the military itself. However, it is recognized that you have a right to your religion, even when you volunteer for service. I'm not sure where this is in the UCMJ, but there has always been conflict within the armed forces wrestling with balancing the differing beliefs of its many members.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:03 pm

Ragorn wrote:I think you need to keep this in perspective. Even I can't be offended by the abbreviation of a bible verse being used as the serial number on a US military rifle. To be offended by this is obnoxiously pedantic.

Ironically, I doubt Jesus himself would have approved of his message being stamped on implements of war and death. But hey, history is replete with Christians who have outwardly proclaimed their love for Christ while selling graven images in his name.

I'm inclined to agree, the only time that I can recall Jesus being depicted with a weapon is on Southpark.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Jesus guns!

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Feb 09, 2010 2:56 am

Lol. The IDF uses Trijicon sights. For those of you still following, Trijicon is providing free kits to remove the offending letters and numbers from the sight's serial number.

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