Most Americans support the healthcare bill

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Ragorn
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Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby Ragorn » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:12 pm

Or rather, most Americans support each provision of the healthcare bill, when it is presented to them individually.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/t ... pular.html

What? Small business tax credits? Reduce the deficit? No federal funding for abortions? No coverage for illegals? But these things can't possibly be part of the health care bill! That thing is a 1000 page mess of socialism and welfare for lazy people!!!

The problem isn't acceptance, the problem is AWARENESS. Half the country has no idea what's in the damn bill, except they're told by their Congressmen and their news outlets what they're supposed to think about it.

The poll was run by Nate Silver of fivethirtyeight.com. Nobody in the media is unbiased, but I'd say 538 is as close to representative (and as accurate) as I've seen among the major polling outlets.
kiryan
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:38 pm

Is that a poll of the legislators that are actually goign to vote on the bill, oh wait they don't even read the bills before they vote.

So... the argument is that the people who know what the bill is about are for it and the those who don't are united against it? I'm not sure I buy that fallacy despite the claim that it goes from -6 to +10 after being given a description of the bill. Thats assuming the poll is legitimate... which I'll cautiously accept.

Another fallacy is that all the line items are equal in weight. I think this poll discounts that people may like aspects or even the entire bill, but still refuse it on the basis of WE DON'T WANT THE GOVERNMENT IN CONTROL OF HEALTHCARE. Look at the negativity for the individual mandate, -40 and only 63% know about it, look at cost... Those are probably the two biggest issues. I'm willing vote against all the good the bill could do because of the individual mandate. I'm not ready to trade my freedom from government instrusion for free / reduced healthcare. Besides that, I don't trust them. I honestly don't believe government can reduce the cost of anything or really... can actually fix anything.

Surely you understand that this poll really doesn't prove jack shit. Its interesting, but they really needed to weight the importance of each item to each person.
Ashiwi
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby Ashiwi » Wed Jan 27, 2010 7:23 pm

Actually, the biggest problems seem to be a combination of things...

Conspiracy theory gullibility - too many people who want to believe the worst thing they hear
Ignorance - too many people who are either too lazy or just don't know how to find out for themselves, so believe whatever they hear from somebody they like
Insanity - One (old humor) definition of insanity is to continue doing the same thing over and over, and expect different results. People wanted big changes, because they know at heart that the system as it is right now just isn't working. They want those changes without having to change anything, though. People want the problems fixed without them having to do anything different.
kiryan
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby kiryan » Wed Jan 27, 2010 9:26 pm

Conspiracy theory gullibility - I think we can call that cyncism or pessisism and I think its healthy for most people.

Ignorance - many of us are ignorant and do need other people to do the thinking for us, the research for us, sift through the information explosion and sum it up for us in language we can understand. intellectuals, democrats are fond of saying that we're a bunch of sheeple. The reality is probably that we find someone who we trust based on reputation and word of mouth and that we agree with over time we build up a comfort level that they reflect our values. That person becomes a trusted source... just like all people intellectuals included have trusted sources that they believe unconditionally.

The fallacy is that Rush Limbaugh, Glenn Beck ect are controlling a bunch of automatons, the truth is probably that their listeners are a bunch of normal busy people who agree with them and trust their truthfulness based on their limited evaluation of the facts in face of the supposed truth as told by the liberally bias'd media. If polls are to be believed and we are a center right nation, why are we surprise that conservative show hosts have a HUGE following.

Calling it ignorance is simply that, calling it a name.

Insanity - yea... agree and I'll add that people want more for less. How can you have more services with less money? More protections without less government? More safety from terrorists without engaging them? Insanity defines America... and thats before you even discuss how the government actually works...
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby Vaprak » Wed Jan 27, 2010 11:02 pm

I actually read about 75% of the house bill, the entire CBO study on the house bill, the supplements and letters from the CBO on the house bill, about 50% of the senate bill, the entire CBO study on the senate bill, the supplements and letters from the CBO on the senate bill, and as much of the manager's ammendment to the senate bill as I was able to cross-reference without also looking up 200 other laws. I've also read the reports from the director of the health and human services.

Having said all that (yes I'm a bit of a sadist), I'm against 90% of what is in either of the two bills. There are hardly any provisions in either bill that, as a libertarian, I can stand behind as solid legislation. I do not want. But alas, all the good stuff was probably in the sections that I didn't read...
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby Corth » Thu Jan 28, 2010 2:19 am

I think I would prefer waterboarding rather than all that other torture.
teflor the ranger
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Re: Most Americans support the healthcare bill

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Jan 29, 2010 11:42 pm

Ragorn wrote:The problem isn't acceptance, the problem is AWARENESS. Half the country has no idea what's in the damn bill, except they're told by their Congressmen and their news outlets what they're supposed to think about it.

The more people are aware of the bill, the more they will be against it.

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