Education, wow this is really f*kd up

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kiryan
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Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:43 am

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magaz ... gewanted=1

Its very very long. But basically, since Texas is the biggest buyer of school textbooks, it almost dictates what the text book publishers produce which means the other states that buy textbooks basically get Texas' curriculum.

Conservatives have invaded the texas board of education and basically pushing a decidedly conservative agenda... to the point of even being ridiculous.

All I have to say is you brought it on. You forced liberal values on us and now you have pushed us past reason and you deserve the insane conservative religious tide that is breaking on the shores. I fully support this in the same way Obama sat in a America hating church and has 60s era socialist radicals advising him. Win at all costs is the name of the game and conservatives are playing again.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 12, 2010 2:27 am

kiryan wrote:Win at all costs is the name of the game



Such a Christian sentiment.

You know... if you guys even tried to live up to your ideals rather than forcing everyone else to, no one would care?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Feb 12, 2010 5:20 am

It's actually a liberal sentiment, by the way they've tried to liberalize the entire nation through force and coercion. There is nothing more ironic than being ostracized, and forced out of neighborhoods and communities by so called liberals because you don't ascribe to their beliefs.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Kifle » Fri Feb 12, 2010 3:01 pm

kiryan wrote:http://www.nytimes.com/2010/02/14/magazine/14texbooks-t.html?pagewanted=1

Its very very long. But basically, since Texas is the biggest buyer of school textbooks, it almost dictates what the text book publishers produce which means the other states that buy textbooks basically get Texas' curriculum.

Conservatives have invaded the texas board of education and basically pushing a decidedly conservative agenda... to the point of even being ridiculous.

All I have to say is you brought it on. You forced liberal values on us and now you have pushed us past reason and you deserve the insane conservative religious tide that is breaking on the shores. I fully support this in the same way Obama sat in a America hating church and has 60s era socialist radicals advising him. Win at all costs is the name of the game and conservatives are playing again.


I only half remember a quote about trading eyes, but I think it just may apply here. Dumb + Dumb = More Dumb. I do not support Dumb maths.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Sat Mar 13, 2010 12:51 am

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35839979/ns ... education/

I think it's pretty hilarious. Democracy at work! You want public schools with a curriculum determined by government officials? You got it! Flip side of 'heather has two mommy's"
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 13, 2010 4:01 am

I read as far as "not cover philosophical ideals such as separation of church and state."

And you wonder why we say Republicans are trying to create a theocracy? Ugh.

Just out of curiosity Corth, is this really constitutional? The state teaching religion?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:44 am

i love how social liberals can push anything they want and its fine, but conservatives have to sit down and shut up if you utter the words "separation of church and state".

Progressives have been on the war path since Obama since 2006, its past time for conservatives to rise up and assert in no uncertain terms that this is a center right country. Play time is over.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:11 am

kiryan wrote:i love how social liberals can push anything they want and its fine, but conservatives have to sit down and shut up if you utter the words "separation of church and state".

Progressives have been on the war path since Obama since 2006, its past time for conservatives to rise up and assert in no uncertain terms that this is a center right country. Play time is over.


By "push anything they want" you mean teaching facts, right? Because we all know it wouldn't be "fine" if anyone tried to push Muslim teachings into the schools. There'd probably be any form of "protest" from cross burnings to bombings to keep THAT out of schools.

Even though there's no difference.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Sat Mar 13, 2010 8:53 pm

When it comes to history there is a lot of dispute over what the facts are. It's a very politicized subject.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 14, 2010 3:35 am

lol, you don't realize that your liberal social agenda is the same as teaching islam in the schools as far as I'm concerned.

seriously, you take it for granted that your view is some sort of universal truth. and I'm close minded LOL.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 14, 2010 6:35 am

You're argument is missing a little something there Kiryan. Hmm... what is it. *think* Oh yeah, SUBSTANCE.

You've got nothing, not even an example of this "Liberal Social Agenda" of yours.

You want to teach Christianity to people who may not be Christian. You want to do exactly what the people who founded this country were running from.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:32 am

so sure of your liberal myths.

separation of church and state is a critical foundation of the country and government, but not in the way the phrase has been perverted and touted by aethiests. Do you honestly think that the founders were against religion being taught in their schools. Most schools were in the local church. No, they were concerned about the king being divinely annointed mouthpiece of God and beyond all question earthly or spiritually. You can't have or protect freedom if the government exercises the authority of divinity.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:40 am

There are still schools within churches, Kiryan, and they can teach whatever they damn well please.

That has nothing to do with STATE RUN schools, who now want to stop teaching students about the separation of church and state.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 2:56 am

What im pointing out is at the founding all schools were basically church schools.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:20 am

kiryan wrote:What im pointing out is at the founding all schools were basically church schools.


Even the churches at the time were largely denominations who had come here to get away from the Catholic church's supremacy, and probably understood the need for separation of church and state.

Remember Kiryan, many of the early settlers here were people seeking religious freedom, not state enforced religion.

Are you Catholic, Kiryan?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:44 am

seriously go actually read something about the founding of this country. since we are talking about fleeing from religious persecution, actually go read it from a religious perspective.

The problem with separation of church and state has to do with the ten commandments in the courthouse, or prayers at basketball games. It has to do with the state acting with divine authority as the one true religion, the state perverting religion for its own purpose or the converse religion perverting government.

I think it was henry the 8th who appointed himself head of the english church... taking authority away from the pope. As king and religious head, he changed the rules and laws for self serving reasons, I believe initially to divorce his wife so he could take up with ann boelyn. This is the religious intolerance they were fleeing. Not bible clubs.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:46 am

Sarvis wrote:Even the churches at the time were largely denominations who had come here to get away from the Catholic church's supremacy, and probably understood the need for separation of church and state.


Sarvis, remember, however, that many of the pilgrims who came here weren't trying to get away from the Catholic Church, they were trying to get away from the Church of England & Puritan(ical) leaders. They were getting away from other Protestants, not Catholics.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 12:52 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Even the churches at the time were largely denominations who had come here to get away from the Catholic church's supremacy, and probably understood the need for separation of church and state.


Sarvis, remember, however, that many of the pilgrims who came here weren't trying to get away from the Catholic Church, they were trying to get away from the Church of England & Puritan(ical) leaders. They were getting away from other Protestants, not Catholics.


Figured I'd get a detail wrong. The point still stands though, right? We're not talking about people who wanted the church tied to the government, but people who were running away from that.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:15 pm

Not a church tied to government, a government that was the church. That is a huge difference that completely changes the common understanding of what "separation of church and state" means.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 3:16 pm

kiryan wrote:Not a church tied to government, a government that was the church. That is a huge difference that completely changes the common understanding of what "separation of church and state" means.


As often as you point out slippery slopes I'm surprised you can even make this argument with a straight face.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:02 pm

As the Jedi master of pedantic nitpicking, I'm surprised you don't see it.

At the same time I am enjoying watching this play out, I started thinking about how this will actually play out. States banding together to form a consortium to gain influence relative to Texas and all the people and poltiics that will involve. Possibility of feds trying to do something such as providing grants to states if they buy approved text books off a certified list. More worrisome will be the general leftist reaction from teacher's across the nation as they are forced to use text books that contradict their anti-american socialist views... and they'll get salt rubbed in the wound every year as they teach a new batch of students. Religious conservatives are probably doing more harm to their cause than good with this since kids don't read textbooks anyways, they only study what will be on the test.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:09 pm

Ultimately the really good thing about this situation is it illustrates how stupid it is for government to determine curriculum.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 4:46 pm

kiryan wrote:As the Jedi master of pedantic nitpicking, I'm surprised you don't see it.


It's not that I don't see it, it's that it doesn't matter. Either way beliefs are being pressed on people by the state. I don't actually care if the ruler is ALSO the Pope or if the Pope is just an "advisor" to the ruler. The measurable difference is negligible.

And again, we all know how much you'd be sitting here crying if we replaced Evolution with one of the Native American creation myths instead of your personal creation myth.

At the same time I am enjoying watching this play out, I started thinking about how this will actually play out. States banding together to form a consortium to gain influence relative to Texas and all the people and poltiics that will involve. Possibility of feds trying to do something such as providing grants to states if they buy approved text books off a certified list. More worrisome will be the general leftist reaction from teacher's across the nation as they are forced to use text books that contradict their anti-american socialist views... and they'll get salt rubbed in the wound every year as they teach a new batch of students. Religious conservatives are probably doing more harm to their cause than good with this since kids don't read textbooks anyways, they only study what will be on the test.


Anti-american agenda... right. Every teacher in the world wants to see America fail. :roll: Do you even listen to the shit you say?

If you had your way, if the world worked the way you want there'd be so much civil unrest America would cease to function in less than a generation. There'd be constant race riots, an uneducated populace wouldn't be able to work any job above retail, and companies would collapse left and right as no one could afford to buy their products.

Talk about anti-American.

Face it Kiryan, you don't care about people. That's all this comes down to. You'd rather force someone to believe what you do than to just let them be.

The worst thing is that what's being taught is the THEORY of Evolution. You know what theory means, right? It means this is what scientists THINK happened based on evidence. That and the evidence is being presented.

It's not any fucking different than saying Christians think the world was created in 6 days by God.

Now, I know you want to jump up and shout "AH-HA! You just admitted they are the same!"

No, I didn't. Because Christians don't want "Christians believe the world was created in 6 days by God" to be taught, they want "The world was created in 6 days by God" to be taught.

You want your belief taught as a fact, whereas the only fact there is that you believe it. Good for you, and I'll be happy to let any kids know you believe what you believe.

Now why can't you let us teach kids what scientists believe?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Callarduran » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:34 pm

What it boils down to for me is that if you are going to say that this is a Christian nation, and therefore it is OK to teach certain biblical things in schools, then you have to decide which beliefs to teach. Take Sarvis' creation example. I'm a Christian, and I certainly don't believe that the world was created in 6 days. I don't want that taught to my kids with my tax money. Or that acts = ticket to heaven.

Separation of Church and State is a GOOD thing, because as Christians we don't agree between monkey and cat theology. If we did, we would be as solid a unit as Sarvis seems to indicate with his every post, which just isn't true. If you were to line up my beliefs next to Kiryan's, for example, we would disagree on about 95% of things. But we're both Christian.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 5:37 pm

Callarduran wrote:If you were to line up my beliefs next to Kiryan's, for example, we would disagree on about 95% of things.


Well sure, but Kiryan's a special case. :P

Seriously, I agree with you. I know there are different denominations and that they exist largely because they are unable to agree on various minor issues.

However, as a group you can be motivated by the same guiding principles and calls "in the name of God." I can only imagine the infighting that would ensue if the Christians who DID want a theocracy finally got their way, and the wrong denomination* ended up in power!

*That being whichever denomination is not "yours"
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Callarduran » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:02 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Callarduran wrote:If you were to line up my beliefs next to Kiryan's, for example, we would disagree on about 95% of things.


Well sure, but Kiryan's a special case. :P

Seriously, I agree with you. I know there are different denominations and that they exist largely because they are unable to agree on various minor issues.

However, as a group you can be motivated by the same guiding principles and calls "in the name of God." I can only imagine the infighting that would ensue if the Christians who DID want a theocracy finally got their way, and the wrong denomination* ended up in power!

*That being whichever denomination is not "yours"


Heh, a lot of the "minor issues" are not minor at all. But that is an entirely different topic. :)

I also heartily disagree with you on your premise that all Christians would answer a call "in the name of God," partly because the different denominations disagree so MUCH on the various tenants of faith. Just look at the homosexuality issue. This is an issue that is grasped upon in general as "all Christians hate gays, because the Bible says so." Yet, the Episcopal Church just confirmed its second gay biship. The ELCA recently voted to allow homosexuals in committed relationships to serve congregations if the congregation approves.

If God himself came down from heaven one day, 300 feet tall, clothed in white, and said "America must become a theocracy" then MAYBE you could Christians as a whole to come together.

But I doubt it.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby avak » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:15 pm

kiryan wrote:As the Jedi master of pedantic nitpicking, I'm surprised you don't see it.


I think we could all be accused of this, but that is fn funny.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:35 pm

Callarduran wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Callarduran wrote:If you were to line up my beliefs next to Kiryan's, for example, we would disagree on about 95% of things.


Well sure, but Kiryan's a special case. :P

Seriously, I agree with you. I know there are different denominations and that they exist largely because they are unable to agree on various minor issues.

However, as a group you can be motivated by the same guiding principles and calls "in the name of God." I can only imagine the infighting that would ensue if the Christians who DID want a theocracy finally got their way, and the wrong denomination* ended up in power!

*That being whichever denomination is not "yours"


Heh, a lot of the "minor issues" are not minor at all. But that is an entirely different topic. :)

I also heartily disagree with you on your premise that all Christians would answer a call "in the name of God," partly because the different denominations disagree so MUCH on the various tenants of faith. Just look at the homosexuality issue. This is an issue that is grasped upon in general as "all Christians hate gays, because the Bible says so." Yet, the Episcopal Church just confirmed its second gay biship. The ELCA recently voted to allow homosexuals in committed relationships to serve congregations if the congregation approves.

If God himself came down from heaven one day, 300 feet tall, clothed in white, and said "America must become a theocracy" then MAYBE you could Christians as a whole to come together.

But I doubt it.



It's just pulling threads together. How do Episcopalians feel about abortion? Would the vote for the anti-abortion guy, for instance, in spite of him being anti-gay marriage as well? (Assuming Episcopalians would actually support gay marriage, which it doesn't sound like they've gotten quite that far from your post.) Or would they vote for the Teach Creationism guy, regardless of his stance on abortion?

That's the danger. That's why the Republican party has been so successful in pulling together a Christian base. You don't have to agree with each other, you just have to agree with the parts directed at you.

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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Callarduran » Mon Mar 15, 2010 6:51 pm

But Sarvis, what you are describing is not Christian, it is Human. Or at the very least, American. Voting on a single issue instead of voting on a candidate as a whole. Voting on the anti-abortion candidate because he is anti-abortion, and ignoring the rest of his stances, draws in the anti-abortion vote, not necessarily the Christian vote. Sure, many Christians are anti-abortion, but what you're doing is applying false logic. Just because you are anti-abortion does not mean you are Christian, and just because you are Christian does not mean that you agree with the anti-abortion group.

Anyway, we're getting quite a bit off topic here with this. :)
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:08 pm

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts1253
All of you should read this.

Before you bitch, this has nothing to do with conservatism or liberalism.

I find some of the changes that the journalist had cherry picked to be refreshing and good, others nonsensical and insane.

Yet another reason to be against public schools.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:33 pm

The manipulation of the text books in this manner is ridiculous. Whether for liberal or conservative bents.

I fully support the conservative positions because they are right, our schools are and have been leftist and denigrating towards conservatives.

Its still ridiculous that the party of the day can rewrite history and what is being taught in the classroom, but of course I blame liberals for starting it.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:40 pm

You can put 100 American History scholars in a room, and UNDOUBTEDLY, you will have 100 different opinions on what is historically relevent, to what extent, and even what factually happened. This is exactly the problem. It's not any one party 'rewriting' history. It's that people view history from different perspectives based upon politics and philosophy. Therefore, it is entirely improper for government to determine the "history" that is taught to children. Whether it's a right leaning government, a moderate government, or a leftist government. That is what is so great about this story. It shows exactly why government should get out of the business of public education.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:18 am

Corth wrote:You can put 100 American History scholars in a room, and UNDOUBTEDLY, you will have 100 different opinions on what is historically relevent, to what extent, and even what factually happened. This is exactly the problem. It's not any one party 'rewriting' history. It's that people view history from different perspectives based upon politics and philosophy. Therefore, it is entirely improper for government to determine the "history" that is taught to children. Whether it's a right leaning government, a moderate government, or a leftist government. That is what is so great about this story. It shows exactly why government should get out of the business of public education.


It does?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:37 am

Well if you don't think it does, how can you have a problem with a democratically elected government determining a history curriculum that reflects the values of it's constituents?

You're going to say that this history curriculum is incorrect. My response would be citation please. There is no 'correct' interpretation of history. Different scholars choose to emphasize different things. Even the underlying facts are in dispute in many cases.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 12:55 am

Corth wrote:Well if you don't think it does, how can you have a problem with a democratically elected government determining a history curriculum that reflects the values of it's constituents?

You're going to say that this history curriculum is incorrect. My response would be citation please. There is no 'correct' interpretation of history. Different scholars choose to emphasize different things. Even the underlying facts are in dispute in many cases.


Ok, but what's the alternative Corth? Bob learns one history while Jill learns another while Laquisha learns a third?

Besides, the really funny point here is that it's not the government selecting the curriculum it's the textbook maker. The textbook company just happens to be in Texas and therefore influenced by Texas politicians. So instead people in my state having control of what history students' learn, you have Texas Republicans combined with a private company deciding what my kids will learn.

Plutocracy FTW?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:02 am

It has nothing at all to do with the textbook manufacturer. The Texas commission sets curriculum and orders textbooks. Other smaller states don't have the resources to do what Texas does so they just simply order whatever the textbook manufacturer has on hand, which are the textbooks created by the Texas commission. Trust me, if Oregon wants to pay for a textbook the textbook manufacturer would be happy to produce it for them.

As for everyone learning a different history - to me that is exactly what we should be striving for. Honesty is rarely a bad thing. The truth is that there is no uniform history. History is a human concept that reflects our values and concepts of what is relevent and what isn't. Schools should reflect our values as well, which means a greater diversity in what is taught.. which to me is a good thing.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:43 am

Sarvis if you had bothered to read the article, you'd understand that it has nothing to do with where the company is physically located and has to do with the sheer # of textbooks Texas orders and the frequency. Its the free market at work. Other states could buy their own text books, meeting their own standards if they are willing to pay enough to make it worth the text book makers time.

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Corth, I understand the point you make with history being subjective in nature, but there is a difference between Iran's revisionist history that the holocaust never happened and wanting to delist "hiphop" as a significant American tradition. I mean if we are going to list degenerate behavior as significant culture, maybe we should list the KKK too.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 1:14 pm

Corth wrote:It has nothing at all to do with the textbook manufacturer. The Texas commission sets curriculum and orders textbooks. Other smaller states don't have the resources to do what Texas does so they just simply order whatever the textbook manufacturer has on hand, which are the textbooks created by the Texas commission. Trust me, if Oregon wants to pay for a textbook the textbook manufacturer would be happy to produce it for them.

As for everyone learning a different history - to me that is exactly what we should be striving for. Honesty is rarely a bad thing. The truth is that there is no uniform history. History is a human concept that reflects our values and concepts of what is relevent and what isn't. Schools should reflect our values as well, which means a greater diversity in what is taught.. which to me is a good thing.


How is that not the wealthy controlling things, Corth?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:42 pm

Oregon doesn't have enough money to produce a textbook? Hardly. They just choose to use their money elsewhere. This is the first time, btw, that I have seen a leftist use a wealthy STATE as an example of capitalism gone awry. Socialists are supposed to love wealthy states! :)
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:44 pm

kiryan wrote:Corth, I understand the point you make with history being subjective in nature, but there is a difference between Iran's revisionist history that the holocaust never happened and wanting to delist "hiphop" as a significant American tradition. I mean if we are going to list degenerate behavior as significant culture, maybe we should list the KKK too.


Oh I'm not saying you can call any turd history and that's what it is. I'm saying you can get 100 history scholars in a room and they will all disagree, but all of their positions will have some basis in what actually happened. Just different opinions generally about the significance of what happened and some factual details. But no legitimate scholar is going to argue, for instance, that the halocaust didn't occur, etc.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby kiryan » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:06 pm

I think history from the middle of the road is probably the most appropriate for K12 school. Extreme views should be the subject of higher education or specially directed education, not part of the base instruction. For example, we should probably cover MLK in history, but keep it more objective, who he was, the key events, his death and some of the changes directly attributed to the movement. Leave the intimiations up to the students and teacher to discuss in class/lecture.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:12 pm

Corth wrote:
kiryan wrote:Corth, I understand the point you make with history being subjective in nature, but there is a difference between Iran's revisionist history that the holocaust never happened and wanting to delist "hiphop" as a significant American tradition. I mean if we are going to list degenerate behavior as significant culture, maybe we should list the KKK too.


Oh I'm not saying you can call any turd history and that's what it is. I'm saying you can get 100 history scholars in a room and they will all disagree, but all of their positions will have some basis in what actually happened. Just different opinions generally about the significance of what happened and some factual details. But no legitimate scholar is going to argue, for instance, that the halocaust didn't occur, etc.


So Corth, should a teacher/district be able to teach that the Holocaust never happened?

Because there are those who would do so.

Or worse yet, teach that the Holocaust was justified and that the Allies were the bad guys.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:28 pm

No, such a teacher would be fired. As I said, you can't call any turd history. There are disagreements on the subject, but no legitimate historian would say the halocaust never occurred.

But what about the neo-nazi parents that want to send their children to neo-nazi schools? I think that is where the government's historic role of protecting children from abusive parents comes into play. While I suggest that a diversity of thought is advantageous, I don't think that we should subject children to an 'education' devoid of thought. I have no problem with liberal parents sending their kids to socialist school, and conservative parents sending their kids to social morality school. Neo nazi parents would be shit out of luck.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:34 pm

Corth wrote:No, such a teacher would be fired


Why would he be fired if the administration in his school or district supported that view?
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:37 pm

The only way that the majority of the administration are neo-nazis is if the majority of the population is as well. Otherwise such administrators would never be elected or appointed. I would propose that if the majority of any municipality ever turns out to be pro-nazi, that the rest of the US should kick such a municipality out of the union. :)
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:10 pm

Corth wrote:The only way that the majority of the administration are neo-nazis is if the majority of the population is as well. Otherwise such administrators would never be elected or appointed. I would propose that if the majority of any municipality ever turns out to be pro-nazi, that the rest of the US should kick such a municipality out of the union. :)


So the Holocaust will be taught about because elected officials will express the will of the community and teach about it?

I thought the "government should get out of the business of public education."
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:29 pm

I thought we were talking about our public school system. The public school system is administrated by the government which sets curriculum. If administrators are proposing nazi curriculum, then presumably that is a reflection of the people who elected them. Not that this would ever happen... but you asked the question.

If we were talking about a system of private schools funded by government vouchers, which I prefer, then curriculum would be determined by the school itself. Of course, in that example I think it would be reasonable to condition government funding upon adherence with certain minimum standards. a Leftist or conservative view of history would expressly fall within such standards. A nazi history not so much.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:36 pm

Corth wrote:I thought we were talking about our public school system. The public school system is administrated by the government which sets curriculum. If administrators are proposing nazi curriculum, then presumably that is a reflection of the people who elected them. Not that this would ever happen... but you asked the question.


You were arguing that government should not determine curriculum. I was pointing out that if no larger body determines curriculum you'll end up with situations where schools teach such varied aspects of history that truly ludicrous things would end up believed by large portions of the populace.

For instance, many southern schools would probably LOVE to teach that the Civil War was entirely the North's fault, and prepare a generation or two of students to attempt breaking away again.

If we were talking about a system of private schools funded by government vouchers, which I prefer, then curriculum would be determined by the school itself. Of course, in that example I think it would be reasonable to condition government funding upon adherence with certain minimum standards. a Leftist or conservative view of history would expressly fall within such standards. A nazi history not so much.


So even the free market system of yours will be controlled by the government?

I fail to see the difference...

Really, "minimum standards" is what we have now with NCLB...
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:45 pm

There is, however, a kind of solution to this problem. Print on demand. It's where physical media must go to stay relevant.
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Re: Education, wow this is really f*kd up

Postby Corth » Wed Mar 17, 2010 10:35 pm

Sarvis wrote:
So even the free market system of yours will be controlled by the government?

I fail to see the difference...

Really, "minimum standards" is what we have now with NCLB...



Very big difference. In the current system, government makes the curriculum and directly runs the schools. In my proposed system, the schools make the curriculum (and compete against each other based on curriculum) and are funded by government vouchers that each student is entitled to. However if the curriculum is outlandish to the point of having neo-nazi propaganda, then government vouchers will not be issued for that school.

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