lol, taking away more rights!

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kiryan
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lol, taking away more rights!

Postby kiryan » Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:03 pm

http://www.ocregister.com/news/city-235 ... parks.html

I love it, city is proposing to ban dogs from parks and lots of parts of the city. If they can regulate me drinking a beer or not wearing a shirt in a park, then no reaosn they can't regulate having dogs.

Now time for all you freedom deniers to get on a soap box and defend people's rights to have a dog at a park.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:11 pm

I don't see why defending the right to not be annoyed by dogs is wrong.

Just like cigerates in a building is banned so you don't pester other people, then dogs, and especially dogs running loose will annoy some.

If some parks are dog free, then all it really does is cater to those that don't want to be bothered by dogs. And that is also a freedom.

Try to replace dogs with playing loud music, or something else you are not emotionally attached to, but that is a joy, that at the same time annoy others. Then you can see how easy it is to give the argument.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Sarvis » Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:17 pm

I don't see why defending the right to not be annoyed by public sex is wrong.

Just like cigerates in a building is banned so you don't pester other people, then public sex, and especially kinky sex games will annoy some.

If some parks are sex free, then all it really does is cater to those that don't want to be bothered by people having sex. And that is also a freedom.



How's that? Would love to see Kiryan defend freedom now that sex is involved!


Not to say that I'd support a dog ban in parks, but don't hide behind the "they took our freedoms!" argument. Make a real one unless you're going to support ALL freedom.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Botef » Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:04 am

I'd guess this is partly a liability concern but who knows. Its happening around here too, although there are two dog parks within 15 miles so its not as if your without options here. I'd be on the fence on this one because as much as I like taking the dog to the park, I hate going to a park and finding the open spaces covered in shit.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Feb 20, 2010 5:03 am

kiryan
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby kiryan » Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:23 pm

yea, if you believe the government can take away your "right" to smoke, drink soda, be fat, not by health insurance, then obviously they have the right to take away your dogs, cats, birds ect or at least not allow you to have them in public spaces...

i don't know that i would be for the government banning people engaging in public sex. what i am against is people wanting to ban "religious" activities then turn around and condone a different belief system like the homo agenda.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:50 pm

We were well warned about the tyranny of the majority by philosophers of ages past. Yes, I rip on modern philosophers, but the old guys were the originals. And dead. Hard to speak ill of the dead.

The tyranny of the majority is what happens when most people think something is ok, or want something, and then use their majority to impose it upon everyone.

Say, the majority of people don't like oranges and are jealous of those who do like them and enjoy them. Using their majority in a democratic system, they take all oranges away because if they can't enjoy oranges, they don't want anyone else to. This is an example of what the tyranny of the majority can do.

Ok, so that example isn't one grounded in reality, so let's look at something real.

The majority of people don't like dogs and don't like being around them. They don't like seeing dog poo and don't like dogs barking in the park. There are a number of sensible stop-gap measures that the majority could take like making it illegal to leave dog litter, and enforcing leash laws in the park, but that's just not enough for the majority. Despite the fact that there are many people who love dogs and want to have somewhere to take their dogs to walk and play, the majority would simply rather not have to deal with dogs anymore. The majority uses its majority in a democratic society to simply make it illegal to bring dogs to the park at all.

What gives the majority a right to dictate the behavior of all people? Simply because we live in a democracy? Is it even moral to abuse the majority position to make the rules for all people, especially where there has been no compromise or no attempt to make the situation tolerable and enjoyable for all people?

Where do people get off telling all people what to do simply because there are more people that agree with them than disagree? What about the rights of the people who disagree?

The great shame here, is that democracy can be a powerful tool for oppression. It can be every bit as tyrannical to your family as a dictator and leave you every bit as powerless. With great power comes great responsibility. Our society should wield majorities with a great sense of responsibility to preserve the rights of all, failing that or in sensible addition to, we should provide the individual with the greatest voice in what their government is and does by removing power from the highest, most abstract, levels of national government, and place that power where the people have the most say.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:01 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:What gives the majority a right to dictate the behavior of all people? Simply because we live in a democracy?



Yep.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Feb 22, 2010 6:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:What gives the majority a right to dictate the behavior of all people? Simply because we live in a democracy?



Yep.

I actually think that's more or less the definition, yeah.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby avak » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:03 pm

Those last two posts are fn hysterical. Thanks
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby kiryan » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:07 pm

Whats hillarious, the lack of understanding what it means to be free, to have a constitutional republic not a democracy? The founders didn't create a democracy because democracy leads to tyranny of the majority (51% telling 49% what to do). They specifically enshrined "unalienable" rights into our foundation to guarantee basic freedoms.

You guys have no idea what it is to be free, to be an American. It is simply not ok just because you have 51% of the vote.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:34 pm

kiryan wrote:Whats hillarious, the lack of understanding what it means to be free, to have a constitutional republic not a democracy? The founders didn't create a democracy because democracy leads to tyranny of the majority (51% telling 49% what to do). They specifically enshrined "unalienable" rights into our foundation to guarantee basic freedoms.

You guys have no idea what it is to be free, to be an American. It is simply not ok just because you have 51% of the vote.


So what you're saying is that we're living under a tyrrany of a tiny minority who are elected by a majority? That makes it better, somehow?

By the way, the reason our Democracy (and no I'm NOT going to get nit-pickingly technical on what our government is called) works is because the Constitution protects the most important freedoms.

The MOST important? Freedom of Speech. That lets any minority speak their mind and sway hearts so that the minority can get their rights restored. If oranges are ever banned by a majority, there will be a Martin Luther King, Jr to speak about his dream for equal juice availability.

Of course you... you'll never listen. When people speak for gay marriage you cite the Bible. When people speak for healthcare you quote Rand.

There is no tyrrany of the majority, there is only tyrrany of the closed-minded.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:41 pm

kiryan wrote:Whats hillarious, the lack of understanding what it means to be free, to have a constitutional republic not a democracy? The founders didn't create a democracy because democracy leads to tyranny of the majority (51% telling 49% what to do). They specifically enshrined "unalienable" rights into our foundation to guarantee basic freedoms.

You guys have no idea what it is to be free, to be an American. It is simply not ok just because you have 51% of the vote.

Is walking your dog on the public, tax-funded park an inalienable right? I don't recall that amendment.

For that matter, what's the government doing funding parks, anyway? Park maintenance isn't strictly listed as a power of government in the Constitution, so this whole argument SHOULD be moot in the first place.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby avak » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:43 pm

Duh, freedom is easily defined as, -ME- doing what -I- want when -I- want to.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Feb 22, 2010 7:57 pm

avak wrote:Duh, freedom is easily defined as, -ME- doing what -I- want when -I- want to.

Is that what you think the Constitution entitles you to do? Whatever you want?

Didn't you take Civics in 8th grade?
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby avak » Mon Feb 22, 2010 8:11 pm

Are you out sacrasming me?
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Disoputlip » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:01 pm

You are aware we are talking about making a few parks dog free. Nothing about disallowing every dog in every park.

If it was dog haters that had the majority then they could mabye have made a suggestion that made it for all parks. But the article is about someone in government that wants to do it for some parks.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Sarvis » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:07 pm

Someone from the gub'mint! rabble rabble rabble rabble!
teflor the ranger
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:32 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:What gives the majority a right to dictate the behavior of all people? Simply because we live in a democracy?



Yep.

I actually think that's more or less the definition, yeah.

And a dictator has a right to dictate because they live in a dictatorship?

Seriously, get out and get a basic, simple understanding of what a right is.
teflor the ranger
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:34 pm

Sarvis wrote:Of course you... you'll never listen. When people speak for gay marriage you cite the Bible. When people speak for healthcare you quote Rand.

Say something new, say something right, and say something applicable, and I am certain that Kiryan will listen. Despite being frequently wrong, Kiryan is one of the few opinions I can actually respect on these boards.
teflor the ranger
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:35 pm

In addition, I think the word Kiryan is looking for, instead of freedom - is liberty.
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby Ragorn » Mon Feb 22, 2010 9:44 pm

avak wrote:Are you out sacrasming me?

NoooOOOOooooo.
kiryan
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Re: lol, taking away more rights!

Postby kiryan » Tue Feb 23, 2010 2:56 am

avak wrote:Are you out sacrasming me?


lmfao

ahh i like the new fuck it avak!

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