WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

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Disoputlip
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WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:32 pm

I can't find a link that is safe for work. So let me just say that anyone that wish to see some US soldiers sitting in a helicopter, killing civilians and laughing they can just go to youtube and search for wikileaks iraq.

Anyone, assuming from the right wing, that wish to justify their actions?

I can't put into words my disguist. I hope I would never sink to that level if I ever was sent to war.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:39 pm

US military personnel look suspiciously like civilians when they're not in uniform. You have no idea about what you're talking about.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:43 pm

Its atrocious... but war is by definition.

I'm proud of our military record despite deplorable incidents like this and the adu prison thing. Did we forget what Hitler did, Genghis Khan, the Japanese, somali's, pretty much every country and rebel force in Africa and South America? How about the UN peace keepers trading eggs for sex with children? War is a dirty business, staffed by mostly the least common denominator from a society and placed in continuously stressful situation.

I'm far from ashamed of America and our armed forces and you're all lucky Hitler didn't win and Osama Bin Laden isn't in charge. So to paraphrase Obama, we don't do everything right, but you need to start giving us credit for the good we do.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:07 pm

The problem with the video is that the soldiers take real pleasure in killing. At one point they collectively beg for a catastrophically wounded man (war photog I think) to 'grab a weapon, buddy' so they can justify killing the 'bastard.' I am no expert in military rules, but I am guessing that there will be fallout from this incident.

Have you seen combat Tef?
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:19 pm

I agree that the video shows reprehensible and unjustifiable behavior, however, would you condemn all of New Jersey or all of America for the actions of the 5-7 people who raped that 7 year old last week?

Statistically speaking, historically speaking our armed forces maintain a very high moral standard. Do you want to face an American holding an assault weapon or an Iraqi or a Russian or a member of Hugo Chavez's army or a Nazi?
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:02 pm

Stalin

Mao

There are war crimes, and then there are war crimes.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:38 am

Adriorn - Exactly.

This is a pretty horrible video. What is remarkable is the callous detachment of the killing. It looks almost like a video game.

I didn't see anything that seemed to indicate they were knowingly shooting at civillians. Apparently they mistook the large professional grade cameras for RPG's and AK's. Clearly they should be trained to distinguish between a gun and a camera. Keep in mind though that these guys were seeing more than a few of their coworkers get blasted by insurgents. In their mind, they were preventing their good friends from meeting a similar end.

Also the fact that this video is so remarkable is that it is such an outlier. It's the exception that proves the rule. If this sort of thing happened routinely we wouldn't be so shocked by it. The reality of the matter is that the vast majority of such engagements are justified.
Last edited by Corth on Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:50 am

Exactly what? It's not the worst atrocity in the history of mankind? BFD as Joe Biden would say. That sure as shit doesn't excuse it. Those are people in that video...all of them. The van that comes to aid the guy that was dying on the sidewalk was a family taking kids to school!!!! The helicopter pilots show zero compassion and joke about how they shot a hole right through the center of the windshield. In the video you can positively identify the children in the front seat of the van. We're not talking about some renegades out cruising a known battle zone...this is a gd neighborhood where people live...the whole place is a battle zone and mindless westerners think they should just 'get back to normal already.'

Sure, there is a flip side...an argument that the pilots had to take action or put their comrades at risk. There's even an argument that mindless killers are better soldiers than guys that are going to ponder the ramifications of their actions. Yes, it is war. What if you never accepted the premise? What if you consider it an illegal and unnecessary occupation? What if you think the military self-selects macho wannabe killers?
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:56 am

Avak,

I edited my post while you were replying. I agree with much of what you say.

I found a web site which adds some additional information to the youtube clip. There is pretty good reason to believe that these reporters had embedded themselves with insurgents. Actual RPG's and AK's can be seen in the video and in pictures of the aftermath. If that's the case, I think the reporters made a big mistake hanging with that group. You can't expect a helicopter pilot to look at a group containing insurgents and figure out - oh yeah that one is a reuters journalist.

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/201889.php
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:19 am

Corth, I think the Reuters response that I have seen speaks to the legitimate confusion over the situation. It still doesn't address the murderous attitudes that were on display.
David Schlesinger, the editor-in-chief of Reuters news, said the footage was "graphic evidence of the dangers involved in war journalism and the tragedies that can result".
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:05 am

Read the below post.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:21 am

Early one morning, after sleeping only about 3 hours or so after a very long exercise in the field, all of the alarms went off. There were lights and shouting, we stumbled out of our racks and fumbled for our gear in such a hurried manner that an outside observer would have been concerned. "Get out here, get the fuck out here," someone screamed, running up and down the halls. Each of us waited in our rooms, pressed up against the doors, waiting for the signal.

I forgot for a split second, struggling between stages of consciousness that I was the signal. The better prepared among us had full canteens. The less prepared carried them empty, or were trying to fill them as we went. I snapped to it, put on my war face, and summoned a primal, guttural yell, throwing my door open, slamming it into the wall and lept out into our next event. On that signal, the rest of the doors in the hallway slammed open similarly and a bunch of young men and women flooded the small space with flesh and noise, the purpose to overwhelm.

A lone figure stood in the hallway, wearing nothing but BDU pants and a wide brimmed campaign hat. What once was the deafening roar became complete silence. He strode up on side of the hallway and back down, inspecting each of us. Usually, they'd pick apart every single piece of equipment that wasn't ready to their standards and we'd be looking at hours of marching, push ups, situps, you name it. Then he spoke (and by spoke, I mean yelled just loud enough to not be at the top of his lungs).

"I had a dream."

We looked at each other, most of us not fully awake, still struggling to snap to and find their alert state.

"I had a dream and I have just ONE question."

Dramatic pause, crossed arms, looking intently down the hallway.

"Who among you would shoot a 7 year old for the Air Force?"

The response was immediate, LOUD, resounding, and final. Thirty five fists were raised into the center of the hallway, and thirty five voices belted their response.

"Huah, Sir!" They and I answered in the affirmative.

"Well, I guess that's ok then."

He went back to bed, and so did we.



There's a lot about the culture of a group of people whose profession is killing the enemy that you will not understand. There is a lot that I don't understand. But understand this. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about, espcially you, Avak.

Delude yourselves if you want. Note several facts: 1) they obeyed the rules of engagement and did not shoot the target when he did not pick up a weapon, 2) the targets were in a combat zone, 3) the targets were ARMED, and 4) they asked for and received clearance to engage an armed, positively identified group that had already shown hostile intent.

You ever cursed when your computer stopped working? What the FUCK do you expect soldiers to say when they have to kill people? Don't be fucking retard and realize for half a damned second that they're coping with the unthinkable. Do you have ANY idea about what the enemy is saying about us?

*Edit: grammatical error fixed.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:46 am

So, you have seen combat?

"I think he just ran over that body. Haha."

I have a military id, douche. I'm not in the military...figure that one out yourself.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:46 am

avak wrote:So, you have seen combat?

"I think he just ran over that body. Haha."

I have a military id, douche. I'm not in the military...figure that one out yourself.

Sorry, you're at the end of discussion here.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:47 am

Have you seen combat Tef?

Cuz I would love to know how you are so fn enlightened.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:53 am

Lol, for a guy that talks about shooting seven year olds you sure are a spineless pos.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:54 am

Go fuck yourself you sorry piece of shit. You're not worth talking to.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 2:55 am

Witty

I can edit too...you're just a blowhard that doesn't know what he is talking about. Dude, we've all seen pictures of you. You aren't military...you aren't any of the things you claim to have knowledge of. You're a loser. Tell me what you've done in your life. Trust me, I don't need to conjure my genius to know that you won't answer the question. I've already seen this same conversation where you got your lame ass called out for talking about the military like some little expert. Where's the 'shovels can beat tanks' quote when you need it? And now, just like then, you'll be too much of a chickenshit to man up and admit you're a nobody.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:00 am

Again, go fuck yourself, you sorry piece of shit.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:01 am

Wow, didn't see that one coming.

Go ahead, insult me. I'll talk about myself all day long. You're just a whiny little bitch troll that got slapped and now can't regroup.
Last edited by avak on Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:03 am

Only little, small minded men repeatedly ask for something that has nothing to do with the discussion, holding no bearing on the debate.

Only people of small hearts pry into the lives of others, particularly places where trauma may lie.

That is what you are. A small minded, small hearted little man. I'll hope for you, but I doubt it'll do you much good.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:05 am

Now that was pretty good.

No bearing on the debate?? I am legitimately curious how you can determine that I know fuck all about the military when you know next to nothing about me and how you can be an expert when, for all I know, you know nothing about it yourself.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:09 am

You know the truth about your experience. I apologize if I insulted you earlier, but you were really asking for it. I try not to be too judgmental, because in the end all humans are lying, cheating, backstabbing whores for just a little more cocaine. And so, I freely admit that I am every bit as small and every bit of a nobody as you are, and by the exchange we just had, we have reduced each other.

Still, why don't you tell us about your experience then? Maybe you're comfortable with sharing, since you are so comfortable with demanding.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:11 am

I don't know anything about the military!

I'm a businessman. I also know about farming. I'm from the Midwest. I like to fight when I can't solve a problem with talking! I'm a bleeding heart liberal. Anything else?
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:11 am

Where the fuck is Gormal when you need him?

This BBS has gone to shit. I think I'm about done with it..
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:13 am

Oh come on Corth...we could write each other's replies by now. Intellectual headway has not been made here in over a year.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:15 am

Avak,

I'm not willing to enter my credentials or lack thereof into any discussion in which there may be argument. I would much prefer that my arguments or lack thereof stand on their own. Not everything I say in response to your posts are about responding to you, as there are other readers who I want to have both your opinion along with mine.

As for knowing nothing, why are you so quick to criticize?
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:18 am

Fine. You won't state your credentials. It is pretty obvious why. I'm done unless you have something specific to ask me or challenge me on. Thanks for at least making it exciting for 30 mins.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:19 am

Yes, it is because credentials are not an argument.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:21 am

Your mom goes to college.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:22 am

Again, sorry about the insults. I'll delete them if you want.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 07, 2010 1:28 pm

avak wrote:Oh come on Corth...we could write each other's replies by now. Intellectual headway has not been made here in over a year.



Oh I don't know, Corth and I came to an understanding on a couple issues I think...

Just because Teffie and Kiryan are lost causes and you can't seem to give up on them doesn't mean no headway has been made.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Apr 10, 2010 4:29 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Stalin


Man, talk about bad coincidence.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Sun Apr 11, 2010 5:31 am

Stalin just leveled.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Tue Apr 20, 2010 2:38 pm

Oops...I guess even some of the participating soldiers agree that this was a clusterf&ck.
http://www.truthout.org/soldiers-wikileaks-company-apologize-violence58714
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 4:50 pm

avak wrote:Oops...I guess even some of the participating soldiers agree that this was a clusterf&ck.
http://www.truthout.org/soldiers-wikileaks-company-apologize-violence58714

No, the only clusterf-ck is your interpretation of what is an apology for killing people. It's not at all uncommon among civilized military to try to restore the humanity that is lost in warfare as well as the lives and well being of a defeated enemy.

I'm reminded of what pilots were told in a briefing before attacking an Iraqi armored column that was exiting Kuwait back in the gulf war. Forgive me if I'm paraphrasing a bit:

"Put a lot of hate in your hearts and we will be here for you when you get back."

If anything, I think this apology shows the humanity in the soldiers involved that many of you criticized for not having. By and large, the vast majority of US soldiers are good people with good hearts, mothers, fathers, sons and daughters that are asked to do terrible things to keep us safe and pay for our freedom by writing a blank check to the government for up to and including their very lives.

Many of them will come to regret what they do, some will not, but much of it is made necessary by the actions of others.

I did get a chance to watch the full wikileaks video a couple of days ago. My heartfelt sympathy goes out especially to the two children in the van. I watched as the US medics scooped them up out of the van and started running around as if they had somewhere they could go, and I heard the regret in the voices of the pilots that were just trying to make sure their soldier brothers didn't find themselves on the other end of those AK47s and RPGs that the group was carrying around.

The heartbreak of those two specialists are just part of the price paid for not only our freedom, but hopefully of the Iraqis under a legitimate government that doesn't spray chemical weapons on women and children.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:01 pm

As far as I can tell, 2 soldiers signed the apology. One of them wasn't involved whatsoever. The other apparently dealt with the aftermath on the ground. It was definitely not an official letter from the US millitary, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other soldiers (dozens?) involved in the action.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:13 pm

Corth wrote:As far as I can tell, 2 soldiers signed the apology. One of them wasn't involved whatsoever. The other apparently dealt with the aftermath on the ground. It was definitely not an official letter from the US millitary, and does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the other soldiers (dozens?) involved in the action.

Indeed, they were made to look like monsters. You may note that the signers still took the pride to sign U.S. Army. I think that says a lot about how the two signers feel and what they believe in.

There was one guy on the local news a while back that had one of those graphics skinned across the back of his pickup's rear window. It read: "I have sinned for freedom." For the benefit of people who don't really know any soldiers, from a guy that has known at least a few, they have hearts.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:17 pm

I'm not sure that it's supposed to indicate pride in being a part of the us military. Rather, I think it is necessary to show their credentials.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 5:19 pm

Corth wrote:I'm not sure that it's supposed to indicate pride in being a part of the us military. Rather, I think it is necessary to show their credentials.

It could have read former U.S. Army then? Honestly, I believe they were writing an apology, not a letter to Avak :P
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Tue Apr 20, 2010 6:22 pm

Trust me Tef, I do enjoy the fact that I have apparently insulted you enough to warrant a personal attack for each of my posts, regardless of how far you have to stretch logic to make it.

I guess this isn't direct enough for you?
We are doing what we can to speak out against the wars and military policies responsible for what happened to you and your loved ones.

Anyway, thanks for admitting that you aren't and never were in the military and this is just another in the litany of subjects you proclaim yourself an indisputable expert in.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby Botef » Tue Apr 20, 2010 9:47 pm

An interview from Wired with Ethan McCord, one of the authors of the above mentioned letter.

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2010/04 ... more-23793


DR: Do you support Wikileaks in releasing this video?

EM: When it was first released I don’t think it was done in the best manner that it could have been. They were stating that these people had no weapons whatsoever, that they were just carrying cameras. In the video you can clearly see that they did have weapons … to the trained eye. You can make out in the video [someone] carrying an AK-47, swinging it down by his legs [...]

And as far as the way that the soldiers are speaking in the video, which is pretty callous and joking about what’s happened … that’s a coping mechanism. I’m guilty of it, too, myself. You joke about the situations and what’s happened to push away your true feelings of the matter.

There’s no easy way to kill somebody. You don’t just take somebody’s life and then go on about your business for the rest of the day. That stays with you. And cracking jokes is a way of pushing that stuff down. That’s why so many soldiers come back home and they’re no longer in the situations where they have other things to think about or other people to joke about what happened … and they explode.

I don’t say that Wikileaks did a bad thing, because they didn’t. … I think it is good that they’re putting this stuff out there. I don’t think that people really want to see this, though, because this is war . … It’s very disturbing.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:10 pm

avak wrote:I do enjoy the fact that I have apparently insulted you

Anyway, thanks for admitting that you aren't and never were in the military and this is just another in the litany of subjects you proclaim yourself an indisputable expert in.

Full of shit as usual, I've admitted no such thing. Learn to read. Also, you deserve having your nose rubbed in what you put out.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby avak » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:45 pm

Lol, you win. I've been waiting for a reason to bail on this place. Too bad it has to be a fucking blowhard like you to make me realize I'm just wasting my precious time trying to participate in debates. Oh well, the consolation is that I absolutely guarantee your real life is a miserable place to live.

Thanks to those of you whom I really enjoyed bantering and ranting back and forth with. Corth, Sarvis, Kiryan, Tod, Adriorn, Ragorn, etc...seriously, I really enjoyed myself.

edit: anyone that wants to can drop me a PM and we can stay in contact through facebook.
Last edited by avak on Tue Apr 20, 2010 11:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WikiLeaks. US Military Killing Innocent Civilians in Iraq

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Apr 20, 2010 10:56 pm

Bye. Glad I could make it exciting for you.

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