TorilMUD Forums

Good article from the WSJ.

"But without this system running in the background, without the year-over-year progress embedded in these capitalist innovations, those trapped miners would be dead." - The Article

Really? Prove it. There's no other way for innovation to happen?

Did anything/anyone from China help them get out? Anything/anyone from Cuba? North Korea? Venezuela?

REALITY is pretty conclusive as to the reason they got out.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Did anything/anyone from China help them get out?

Wouldn't be the least bit surprised if half the equipment that got them out had been built in China.

Built in China and built in China by American companies are two different things. Did Chinese companies contribute anything? Or did they contribute pennies like they did with Haiti.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Built in China and built in China by American companies are two different things. Did Chinese companies contribute anything? Or did they contribute pennies like they did with Haiti.

Lead poisoning?

Hmmm... but seriously, isn't China pretty much capitalist now? And they didn't contribute anything to the rescue effort? In fact isn't their

Do go on.

Oh, and what about all the first world countries everyone calls Socialist like Germany and France? They've never presented any innovations to the world?

Moreover the article is crediting one single piece of technology. Meanwhile government mining regulations probably mandated supports that kept up enough of the mine so that they miners could be rescued, but only the drill bit gets the credit?

Sounds familiar...

Sarvis wrote:Oh, and what about all the first world countries everyone calls Socialist like Germany and France? They've never presented any innovations to the world?

The article is about the miners being rescued thanks to the innovations of Capitalism. Period. Without those innovations, the miners might not have been rescued. The article is not about other innovations. Reality says that: miners alive because of US innovations.

Sarvis wrote:Moreover the article is crediting one single piece of technology.

Yes, the one that freed the miners alive.

Sarvis wrote:Meanwhile government mining regulations

The families are suing the mining company...

Sarvis wrote:Sounds familiar...

Yes. :)

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:The families are suing the mining company...

Because capitalism dictates cutting corners on safety, perhaps?

Oh, and for the record: Innovation does happen without capitalism. You may be too blind to see it, because it doesn't fit your worldview. But it happens.

Sarvis wrote:Oh, and for the record: Innovation does happen without capitalism. You may be too blind to see it, because it doesn't fit your worldview. But it happens.

Yes, Sarvis, sometimes it does. But like the article and I have said from the start, the reason the MINERS were saved was because of capitalist innovations. Period. No other reasons. You are the blind one who couldn't accept that FACT. This wasn't about other times or other things. Miners. Saved. Capitalism.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:The article is about the miners being rescued thanks to the innovations of Capitalism. Period. Without those innovations, the miners might not have been rescued. The article is not about other innovations. Reality says that: miners alive because of US innovations.

I agree with Adriorn although Sarvis does make a point with Germany and France contributing although being "socialist" (they are way more socialist than we are, but they are certainly not actual socialists).

This thread makes me giggle.

If anything, SCIENCE is the reason they got out of the mine, so quick whining about evolution :)

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:

Sarvis wrote:Oh, and for the record: Innovation does happen without capitalism. You may be too blind to see it, because it doesn't fit your worldview. But it happens.

Yes, Sarvis, sometimes it does. But like the article and I have said from the start, the reason the MINERS were saved was because of capitalist innovations. Period. No other reasons. You are the blind one who couldn't accept that FACT. This wasn't about other times or other things. Miners. Saved. Capitalism.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:The article is about the miners being rescued thanks to the innovations of Capitalism. Period. Without those innovations, the miners might not have been rescued. The article is not about other innovations. Reality says that: miners alive because of US innovations.

:roll: No, a drill bit saved them. Not capitalism. The drill bit may or may not have existed with capitalism. You have no way of knowing. The miners were down there in the first place because of capitalism, and in fact far more than 39 miners die every year because capitalist companies send them into the mines.

But no, give all the credit to the drill bit. Not to the people who ran it, the government who obtained help, or anything else that might have contributed.

Sarvis wrote:The drill bit may or may not have existed with capitalism. You have no way of knowing.

Unicorns may or may not have existed. Toril 2.0 may or may not be coming. These statements are useless. Reality: this drill bit came into being out of capitalist innovations and in the year 2010 helped get the miners out.

Sarvis wrote:The miners were down there in the first place because of capitalism, and in fact far more than 39 miners die every year because capitalist companies send them into the mines.

So communist countries don't have mines? They don't have accidents in socialist countries? These statements have no bearing on reality.

Sarvis wrote:But no, give all the credit to the drill bit.

Correct, that's the point of the article. Otherwise, they'd be living underground indefinitely until a standard drill got to them...eventually.

kiryan wrote:I agree with Adriorn although Sarvis does make a point with Germany and France contributing although being "socialist"

Contributing to what? Did they contribute to the drill being developed?


Why are people coming up with random other things? This article is about two things: #1 the miners, #2 the drill. The drill came out of US-based, capitalist-driven, innovations. Trying to refute either of those two things is retarded.

socialism is evil and capitalism is good!

I was starting to get a hard-on until i read it as miners and not minors.

As I see it China is one of the most capitalist societies in the world.

The country just isn't free. Nothing dictates that a country has to be free to be capitalist.

I think the freedom of the country matters. Especially having a free press.

The mines of DR Congo is a good example, here capitalism runs wild. But would they spend a lot of money on workers healthcare? not really, because the media is not there to cover it.

Germany, as the article mentions as a capitalist society, got forced public healthcare, tax financed higher education etc.

Good things happen when people are rewarded for providing products and services that other people dearly want.

Corth wrote:Good things happen when people are rewarded for providing products and services that other people dearly want.

Yes, but try to explain that to a child worker in a coca plantation in south america.

You may have already guessed my mantra is that good things happen when wealth is distributed.

Diso makes good points...

China is very capitalistic in many ways despite being thought of as communist... You don't see China saying we won't sell nuclear reactors to Iran or we won't strip mine in tibet. In America, we want to boycott target because they contributed money to a candidate who doesn't buy into the gay agenda.

Disoputlip wrote:

Corth wrote:Good things happen when people are rewarded for providing products and services that other people dearly want.

Yes, but try to explain that to a child worker in a coca plantation in south america.

You may have already guessed my mantra is that good things happen when wealth is distributed.

But you haven't addressed how the wealth becomes distributed. If it's done so through the monopoly of violence by people representing a special class of citizens with a blatant disregard for private property rights or regard to whether or not those receiving new wealth deserve it or exercise some sort of behavior that should be rewarded, then all you have is a failed state of broken hobos. There are more than one of those in existence NOW that serve as ample warning for those who are not completely ignorant.

kiryan wrote:In America, we want to boycott disney because they provide health care to gay life partners.

I know, our country is completely fucked.

Sarvis wrote:"But without this system running in the background, without the year-over-year progress embedded in these capitalist innovations, those trapped miners would be dead." - The Article

Really? Prove it. There's no other way for innovation to happen?

There is a lot of history that backs this up, particularly with the Soviet Union and China.

teflor the ranger wrote:

Disoputlip wrote:

Corth wrote:Good things happen when people are rewarded for providing products and services that other people dearly want.

Yes, but try to explain that to a child worker in a coca plantation in south america.

You may have already guessed my mantra is that good things happen when wealth is distributed.

But you haven't addressed how the wealth becomes distributed. If it's done so through the monopoly of violence by people representing a special class of citizens with a blatant disregard for private property rights or regard to whether or not those receiving new wealth deserve it or exercise some sort of behavior that should be rewarded, then all you have is a failed state of broken hobos. There are more than one of those in existence NOW that serve as ample warning for those who are not completely ignorant.

Let me give some examples:

Accords between trade unions and companies about fair and equal salary / higher minimum wage.
Higher income tax for high incomes.
Company taxes for coorporations.
Tax financed health care.
Laws specifically aimed at helping imigrant workers.
Laws that regulate landlords about rented house prices.
Bills that help small business startups.
Laws that regulate loans.
Laws that regulate rural areas. And move money from cities to depopulated land.

Some of the things may not work in the states though, but this is what I am for. You can call me a socialist.

Disoputlip wrote:

teflor the ranger wrote:

Disoputlip wrote:

Corth wrote:Good things happen when people are rewarded for providing products and services that other people dearly want.

Yes, but try to explain that to a child worker in a coca plantation in south america.

You may have already guessed my mantra is that good things happen when wealth is distributed.

But you haven't addressed how the wealth becomes distributed. If it's done so through the monopoly of violence by people representing a special class of citizens with a blatant disregard for private property rights or regard to whether or not those receiving new wealth deserve it or exercise some sort of behavior that should be rewarded, then all you have is a failed state of broken hobos. There are more than one of those in existence NOW that serve as ample warning for those who are not completely ignorant.

Let me give some examples:

Accords between trade unions and companies about fair and equal salary / higher minimum wage.
Higher income tax for high incomes.
Company taxes for coorporations.
Tax financed health care.
Laws specifically aimed at helping imigrant workers.
Laws that regulate landlords about rented house prices.
Bills that help small business startups.
Laws that regulate loans.
Laws that regulate rural areas. And move money from cities to depopulated land.

Some of the things may not work in the states though, but this is what I am for. You can call me a socialist.

We have most of those to some degree in just about every jurisdiction in the United States. Most with bipartisan support.

The issue in the United States where they are separate from European nations are these: 1) we have an actual multicultural society that is functioning (unlike every European nation), 2) we pay for our own defense (the United States has been paying for the defense of Europe for decades).

The issues in the United States that are the same as European nations is this: 1) we are both heaping debt upon our children's children to pay for our children's healthcare.

Neither of these are issues we can get around. You're living in a dreamworld if you believe either of the policies in the United States or in Europe are sustainable.