Disappointing election =(

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Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:17 pm

I'm disappointed.

60 was a good pickup in the house, but I would've been much happier with something closer to 70. Sure its historic... but its not historic enough to counter the last 2 years. I'll give it an A-. Really quite disappointed, but there are projections that we'll pick up as many as 5 more in the house by the time this is done so that might make me feel better.

A pickup of 6 in the senate is nothing to celebrate about... especially because Angle didn't beat Reid, we didn't pick up California. Either one of those would've helped me feel better about the "victory". If we pick up Washington, I'll give it a grade of C+.

Really quite disappointing. It'll be interesting to see Obama's reaction over the next year. We'll find out if he's too much of a demagogue, too idealistic and uncompromising to help rebuild his party. I suspect he'll decline to run in 2012 if he faces as much opposition from his party as he got over the past couple months over the next 2 years.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:35 pm

http://www.politico.com/arena/

Roger Pilon
Vice President for Legal Affairs, Cato Institute :

So Obama will doubtless give lip service to yesterday's results and talk about the need for all to work together "to solve America's problems" - as though we were all on some grand collective mission. But in his subsequent actions he will likely turn to the elites in those isolated urban and academic blue pockets on the map to try to fashion a comeback consistent with his dream, because a Bill Clinton pivot would be wholly out of character with a man who branded opponents as "the enemy." We're probably in for two years of gridlock before we can return to fundamental principles of limited government, and that's good.

I think this is a good analysis, I would be surprised if he pulled a Bill Clinton for the same reasons stated. Furthermore, the end result was defeat in 2000 and a discriminatory policy against gays (DADT) that has lasted over a decade. No, I think he'll fight and either enact some wholly liberal policies through executive order and not run in 2012, or be defeated in 2012 as he continues to think that his problem is messaging. His problem is Americans are too stupid for their own liberal good, and I hope it stays that way.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 03, 2010 5:20 pm

kiryan wrote:as though we were all on some grand collective mission.


Umm... we ARE. It's not a competition, it's a fucking country and these people are responsible for making sure it's a good one.

We're probably in for two years of gridlock before we can return to fundamental principles of limited government, and that's good.


Is he fucking kidding? Did some libertarians get elected or something? We've all seen how Republicans "limit" government. Expansion of powers, new agencies...

His problem is Americans are too stupid



How Republicans really see the people they "serve."

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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:00 pm

Republicans met or exceeded expectations in the house and failed to meet expectations in the senate. I think one thing that has not gotten enough attention is the success they had electing governors. This will undoubtedly help the Republicans going forward as they will have more influence in Gerrymandering following the 2010 census.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:27 pm

If the democrats didn't insist on their pos health reform I imagine they might have been able to Keep Calm and Carry On. But I'm not complaining about the election shift. It's good that people are focusing on things like government spending and interference in people's personal affairs - and not things like whether or not to kill babies, pray in school, or restrict firearms.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Wed Nov 03, 2010 6:56 pm

Sarvis, its the liberals that think the American people are stupid. Its the liberals that think if they can just communicate better, message better that we'll embrace them. That things are too complicated for us to understand so just trust us that healthcare reform is needed. pay attention.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 2:22 pm

It gives you some hope in this country, to see a dominating, super-majority that ignored the will of the people be usurped by the very same, which the elite had long written off as clinging to their guns and religion while threatening them with punishment as their enemies.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 04, 2010 5:16 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:It gives you some hope in this country, to see a dominating, super-majority that ignored the will of the people be usurped...


Then voted back in on Tuesday...

Kiryan: Expecting people to understand when you explain something is NOT thinking they are dumb. Calling them dumb, as was done in your quote, is thinking they are dumb.

See the difference there? The Democrats problem is that they thought people were smart enough to understand.

Of course, they probably were if not for all the FUD Republicans spread.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 04, 2010 8:45 pm

Sarvis wrote:Kiryan: Expecting people to understand when you explain something is NOT thinking they are dumb. Calling them dumb, as was done in your quote, is thinking they are dumb.

See the difference there? The Democrats problem is that they thought people were smart enough to understand.


"Your government has unmistakable confidence in your ability to hear the worst without flinching and losing heart."
Theodore Roosevelet

"We don't always think clearly when we're scared."
Barack Obama

Seems like there's a difference. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:22 am

Yeah, if you go back 100 years Republicans may have actually respected Americans. Now, they don't... and frankly, Obama's quote is just realistic.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:08 pm

Sarvis wrote:Yeah, if you go back 100 years Republicans may have actually respected Americans. Now, they don't... and frankly, Obama's quote is just realistic.


And yet they just gained 60+ seats in the house and took over the majority of the governor mansions. Which means that people are either seriously deluded, or proves Teflor's point that you underestimate the intelligence of ordinary Americans.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 1:37 pm

So do you think the Republicans were the intelligent choice, Corth?

The economy was improving, just not fast enough.
The government was getting smaller, just not visibly enough.

Republicans took advantage of that to scream at the top of their lungs that the economy was no better and that the government was expanding... and got elected based on those lies.

You even said yourself in another thread that it was unfair for Obama to be taking the heat for the economy.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:29 pm

It's unfair for Obama to take heat for the economic crisis that began in 2008 - but socializing the entire health care industry, cap and trade, bailouts, and other misguided policy will only make things worse going forward. To that extent, voting in the party of NO is a great idea - so long as they actually stick to their principles this time.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 3:38 pm

Corth wrote: so long as they actually stick to their principles this time.


Let's see if this is covered by traditional wisdom.

"Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity."

"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

Yep, seems to be.

Also, I don't really get the socialized medicine bit. He campaigned on it, after all. It was a big part of the campaign too... so now keeping a campaign promise is bad?

The bailouts have been shown to help the economy too, by the way... AND the Republicans presided over the first bailouts didn't they?
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Dalar » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:09 pm

You guys got owned in California. I'm actually kind of scared at what kind of dumbshits we have here to have that many people voting for Whitman and Fiorina.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 05, 2010 4:27 pm

Personally, I think the real delusion is how buzz is being generated by the so-called Republican win this election. The Republicans only gained control of one half of one branch of the Federal government. The judicial is becoming increasingly more liberal, with another two years of potential for any senior judge or supreme court justice to kick the bucket or retire, and that's not even the most important part of the last two years.

In all seriousness, the Democrats have won this entire decade through the decisive and violent use of power, thrusting through significant and terrible legislation that WILL NOT (a Teflor prediction) be repealed (at least, not fully). Votes will not be mustered to put the "donut hole" back into Medicare (the $250 gap between the end of coverage and the maximum individual contribution), nor will they turn the clock back on the harsh, anti-business restrictions that have altered the landscape of health insurance agency... I mean business.

The Democrats have also been wildly successful in their goals to shove mountains of not only your money, but your children's money, and their unborn children's money (by borrowing from China) into their special interest: transforming Federal government from the defender of your liberty and opportunity into the provider of your needs. This is money that is too sensitive to either take back or stop giving to the people who greedily game the system to their advantage, or simply just won't accept that a higher standard of living requires a higher standard of personal capability and work.

In short, the Democrats have won this one through and through. Even if there were 25 years of solid Republican party rule after this, I doubt the Republicans will be anywhere near as successful as the Democrats have been in exercising the violence of the Federal government to their ends. Democracy is a system of government that inevitably caters to the tyranny of the majority. And let me tell you, the majority of people in the United States don't want to work hard. They don't like to get dirty. They will sacrifice opportunity for security, liberty for security, and personal responsibility for the security of the victim culture that says "I am oppressed and cannot be successful on my own power."

This is how I see it, and this is how Americans are. I now know what it is like to be religious. I have faith that Americans won't stay this way, but I have absolutely no evidence to show that we're still the land of the free and the home of the brave. Those who love freedom and have bravery all seem to be deployed overseas.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 05, 2010 5:14 pm

ya democracy sucks we need a singleton http://www.nickbostrom.com/fut/singleton.html

like in the movie Colossus: The Forbin Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_ ... in_Project
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:06 pm

Agree Teflor, I don't think healthcare reform will be effectively repealed... They won the century with that one and every Democrat knows it. He actually talked about it in an interview (that i can't seem to find a link for). He was deflecting criticism from the left and was specifically talking about structure of healthcare reform. now that the structure is in place, it can be incrementally increased and the structure is unlikely to ever disappear. Kind of like how Social Security and Welfare and every other social service program starts. It doesn't start out giving benefits to everyone, you start with what everyone can agree on and then just keep increasing it over time.

Sarvis you are ridiculous. I used the word dumb, you're calling them "not smart?" NO MORE PEDANTIC NITPICKING! Democrats think we are dumb think we need to be managed like a herd of cows think we can't understand complicated healthcare reform that they couldn't even be bothered to read before voting on.

Your whole take on the election reflects this, Amercians must be stupid, at least the Republicans, because they voted in the people responsible for the problems.

Democrat problem is they can't understand why/ who are being helped by government continue to vote against government. They don't understand why conservative welfare/social security recipients would vote for people who want to cut welfare and social security. You think we're stupid and in terms of the liberal world view we are stupid. What would you call it when someone keeps trying and blaming "communication" for the same failure? Right, thats called Democrats.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:26 pm

As long as we all remember it's "Us vs. Them" we should be fine.

I'm out again, you guys are showing your true colors once again.

We'll see in two years when Republicans increase the size of government, the economy starts going to shit again, and our deficit increases even more. You'll keep blaming social programs, of course. Not the people in power when that shit happens.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:31 pm

Kindi wrote:ya democracy sucks we need a singleton http://www.nickbostrom.com/fut/singleton.html

like in the movie Colossus: The Forbin Project http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colossus:_ ... in_Project

Ok, I'd like to respond to this with a clarification or addition to what I said in my post previous.

I wanted to add that I was talking about Democracy without a value judgement as to whether or not it sucks, but more just saying that a pickup truck consumes more fuel than a Prius per mile driven.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:52 pm

Really Sarvis... I think you need to seriously consider what the word "economy" means.

The economy is business. How could anyone call the last 2 years as a hospitable business environment with Obama threatening tougher regulation, higher taxes and villification of profits in general. With the courts giving unsecured creditors preference over senior secured creditors because of political ties?

You are willfully blind to the reasons for the protracted economic malise. I thought we were screwed in 2008 because as Rush put it, Democrats can not kill the recovery because America is strong. He was frighteningly close to being wrong. I did see it originally as horrible timing, the economy would undoubtedly recover by 2010 and Republicans would be out in the cold for a generation. Instead he created the most wrong headed anti business environment you could imagine and got wiped out in 2010. If Obama doesn't get on board with business, its over for Democrats in 2012. Being the party of big busienss is very attractive as Americans start remembering where jobs come from.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:57 pm

Oh and Sarvis, don't imagine that I give a shit one way or another if you leave... You're like a little kid threatening to take his ball home so he can sit in his yard bored. Go play on your other forums if this one is so terrible.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:17 pm

kiryan wrote:Being the party of big busienss is very attractive as Americans start remembering where jobs come from.


Yeah, because that worked out so well during the Bush administration.

That's the point I've been making. You keep going on and on about "pro business," but the reality is that under Republicans our economy collapsed. Largely because they were TOO pro-business. They were so "pro-business" that the plan became "let business do anything they want without regulation." Business used that freedom to game the system and collapse the economy.

So let's do it again!
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 05, 2010 7:18 pm

kiryan wrote:Oh and Sarvis, don't imagine that I give a shit one way or another if you leave... You're like a little kid threatening to take his ball home so he can sit in his yard bored. Go play on your other forums if this one is so terrible.



Good point. I shouldn't have let myself get sucked in again.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Nov 05, 2010 9:24 pm

Sarvis wrote:but the reality is that under Republicans our economy collapsed


Result of the 2006 election: majority Democrat Senate and House.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 1:49 am

Sarvis wrote:We'll see in two years when Republicans increase the size of government, the economy starts going to shit again, and our deficit increases even more.


Is this Sarvis acknowledging that increasing the size of government screws up the economy?
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Sat Nov 06, 2010 2:59 am

Dalar wrote:You guys got owned in California. I'm actually kind of scared at what kind of dumbshits we have here to have that many people voting for Whitman and Fiorina.


After the state completes it's slow death spiral towards bankruptcy - that's when they'll finally elect someone else.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Sat Nov 06, 2010 5:49 am

This reminds me of a fatwa issued recently. A man can become part of a woman's family by taking 5 full feedings from her breast in a 3 day period (or something like that). A woman was quoted as saying something to the effect of someone should've asked a woman if its possible to give a man 1 full feeding let alone 5.

Your answer is government? Can government do anything other than point fingers after the fact (bp oil spill)? Can government even catch crooks when presented with evidence of 20 years of fraud (bernie madoff)? Did the government or the fed anticipate the housing bust? Did government stop "predatory" lending by financial institutions (not like thats something they've never seen before)? Can government even write a bill to encourage alternative fuels that isn't a multimillion dollar windfall for a paper factory to increase pollution? Govenrment has a history of being late to the party... and then over reacting.

I know you want to believe the government can right every wrong, but they can't even figure out whether they're buying a new tanker from Boeing or Airbus.

Do you honestly believe government can actually do the things you think they should?
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Sarvis » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:12 am

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:We'll see in two years when Republicans increase the size of government, the economy starts going to shit again, and our deficit increases even more.


Is this Sarvis acknowledging that increasing the size of government screws up the economy?


No, I was listing two bad things that would happen. They are not related except for the involvement of Republicans. :P
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:28 am

I would be more inclined to see your point of view if Clinton hadn't exited office to rising unemployment and several other indicators of economic distress.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Dalar » Sun Nov 07, 2010 12:44 pm

kiryan wrote:Oh and Sarvis, don't imagine that I give a shit one way or another if you leave... You're like a little kid threatening to take his ball home so he can sit in his yard bored. Go play on your other forums if this one is so terrible.

we should just ignore his posts
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:37 am

This article discusses something that has been largely overlooked following the election. Next year, upon the release of the 2010 census data, states are going to have to redraw congressional districts based upon population trends. The Republicans had a massive pickup of state legislature and governor seats. This will undoubtedly benefit them going into the always contentious redistricting fight. This will allow them to shore up Republican districts and perhaps balance out some of the left leaning districts.

Favoring them even further is the fact that they stand to gain a bunch of new seats in traditionally Republican states, and a lot of left leaning states are going to lose seats. As people move from areas run into the ground by liberal policy, such as California, to areas of economic growth that are traditionally conservative, like Texas, the Republicans gain even more seats in the house.

Worth noting - more congressional seats in Republican states and fewer in Dem states helps the Republicans in the 2012 presidential election. More congress seats in Texas, for instance, means Texas gets more electoral votes - and Texas' electoral votes are going to Republicans. As are South Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Nevada, etc., which are going to gain seats. Dem's lose some electoral votes from failed liberal strongholds such as California, New Jersey, Massachussetts, etc. The sheer number of seats expected to shift from blue states to red states is basically about as much as one of the so-called battleground states (PA, OH, etc) that seemingly decide each presidential election. It's like the Republicans won one of those all-important states already, before the election is even held.

I have to say - as a Libertarian who generally votes Republican because they are the lesser of two evils, I am not at all disapointed in this election. Anyone rooting for Republicans who is dissapointed had impossibly high expectations. 60+ house seats, all the governor mansions and state legistlatures - this was massive shift to the right that will take years for the Dems to recover from. The Republicans are within striking distance of taking the Presidency and both houses of Congress in 2012. And, most importantly, no politician in his/her right mind is going to be publically advocating for extensions of Obamacare or more bailouts in the wake of this massacre of incumbents.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:00 pm

Your points are very valid Corth.

The state level impact of taking over so many chambers and governorships is great... Really great. I've been concerned over the past 10 years about the # of democratic governors and legislatures. However, I'm really more concerned about making progress now at the federal level and without the senate and without the presidency, I don't see much chance of that. With the house and the governorships they'll be able to slow Obama way down, Obama's presidency is effectively over unless he finds someway to remake himself in the next 3 months.

but still its disappointing... Its hard to be excited and happy when the prospects of repealing healthcare is zero. They have their victory and we have prospects for a decade of power which is heartening, but healthcare reform will be leaching radiation forever unless the Supreme court rules it unconstitutional.

Also, I intensely dislike the gerrymandering process, its hard for me to be excited that Republicans will be able to use redistricting to game seats for the next decade. That's like trying to get excited about cheating... You're going to win, but they'll always be able to say you cheated.
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Re: Disappointing election =(

Postby Corth » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:07 pm

Gerrymandering is distasteful, but it is what it is. It's been going on for hundreds of years and it's always the same thing. Democrats use the advantage when they can. In this case the Republicans will use the advantage.

IMHO - Unless a lot changes, and I don't expect it to, the Republicans will have both houses of Congress and the Presidency after the 2012 election. Repeal isn't an option until then - BUT - the Republican controlled Congress can essentially refuse to fund it in the meantime.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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