TSA groping

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Kindi
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TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 1:57 pm

anyone been flying recently in the US? i hear they either put you thru the nude picture machine or grope you. even kids.

http://www.pixiq.com/article/the-airport-security-grope

http://www.slate.com/id/2160977/
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Corth » Tue Nov 09, 2010 4:42 pm

I usually opt for groping!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:01 pm

I'll opt for groping.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 5:46 pm

ok so you guys make hundreds of posts about esoteric BS that never has an impact on your life, but you make jokes about the situation where some security guard is literally, in real life, about to fondle your family members. wtf?

from the first article:
"While I was in the room for “private screening,” Kathy and other travelers watched in embarrassment and horror as a sweet-faced, white-haired, old woman with an artificial hip and a long skirt (she had the calm and grace of a nun) was subjected to the same treatment from a female TSA agent, who warned her loudly in advance that she was going to touch “breasts” and “genitals.” When offered the “private screening” room, the lady hesitated. Everybody knows that when the government wants to take you into a private room at the airport, it’s not going to be good. So of course the woman chose to be violated and humiliated in public, with witnesses. "
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:01 pm

Kindi wrote:ok so you guys make hundreds of posts about esoteric BS that never has an impact on your life, but you make jokes about the situation where some security guard is literally, in real life, about to fondle your family members. wtf?


Conservative hypocrisy? In our forum?

Remember, these guys defend the President who spied on American citizens' phone calls without a warrant... yet in every breath decry government involvement in our personal lives.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:41 pm

I opt for racial profilling. White people should not be searched.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 6:52 pm

Bah... gender and age profiling FTW. All women under 25 should be sent through the nude scanner thing.

Also the monitor for the nude scanner should be visible to everyone waiting in line, so they can help point out security risks.

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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 7:40 pm

damnit lost my post.

im against the scanners. I'll drive for now. I hate that they are making the opt out process intentionally difficult and disrespectful, its obviously meant to coerce you into submitting to the stripsearch. I do not consider the pat downs a viable alternative. I'll drive for now.

I'm not ready to argue about it yet, i'm not done deciding how I feel. there are real security issues here, there are groups of people what seem intent on blowign up our air planes. We have a protocol for martial law for a reason and its limited in how it is invoked and how long it can last as well for a reason. Freedom to bring cupcakes to your kid's birthday party is different than freedom to buy thousands of pounds of explosives in complete privacy.

and i thought i'd be the one doing the groping ;)
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Ragorn » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:08 pm

They usually make me pay extra for the groping.

The TSA is one organization that we could scale back 80% and I would neither worry nor care.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:22 pm

I agree, but I would expect a higher incidence of deadly terror attacks.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 8:36 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree, but I would expect a higher incidence of deadly terror attacks.



We could always stop fucking around with the Middle East... it would probably balance out the effects of no TSA.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:30 pm

kiryan wrote:I agree, but I would expect a higher incidence of deadly terror attacks.

... on planes. because i don't see any malls, or movie theaters, or busses, or anything else blowing up around here. maybe we should get scanned and strip searched before entering any room with more than 10 ppl. just to be safe.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:45 pm

gosh sarvis thats brilliant, I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. who knew it was so simple. maybe we should just roll over for china too to ease those conflicts and give the UN a few hundred billion a year to fight global warming.

Are you really that stupid? They hate us because we have power and we do not submit to their rule. You're focused on a battle and missing the broader conflict.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 9:56 pm

kiryan wrote:They hate us because we have power and we do not submit to their rule.

and Tim in the paranoid schizophrenic ward hates us because we cut him open and put aluminum wires into his brain so we could control his thoughts. maybe we should spend billions of dollars to thwart him and his dastardly plans to pee in the corner

and Teflor hates us because we steal his money at gunpoint and force him to work as a slave.....
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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:03 pm

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the difference between your made up Tim and muslim extremist would be 30+ years of history including:

The massacare of Israeli olympiads in Munich
the USS Cole
Iran hostage crisis
PAN AM and a bunch of hijackings in the 80s
9/11
UK subway attacks
Mumbai
a whole host of unsuccessful attacks
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:10 pm

kiryan wrote:gosh sarvis thats brilliant, I wonder why no one ever thought of that before. who knew it was so simple. maybe we should just roll over for china too to ease those conflicts and give the UN a few hundred billion a year to fight global warming.

Are you really that stupid? They hate us because we have power and we do not submit to their rule. You're focused on a battle and missing the broader conflict.


No Kiryan, there's a difference between leaving someone alone and "rolling over." We've installed dictators in their countries, then removed them forcibly and, by their perception, are installing yet more leaders under the guise of "giving them freedom." (And hey, maybe we're actually holding fair elections and giving them their own chosen leaders... but why on earth should they TRUST that we are?)

Here's what we've meddled in just from 1945-1955:

1946: President Harry Truman threatens to drop a "super-bomb" on the Soviet Union if it does not withdraw from Kurdestan and Azerbaijan in northern Iran.

November 1947: The U.S. helps push through a UN resolution partitioning Palestine into a Zionist state and an Arab state, giving the Zionist authorities control of 54% of the land. At that time Jewish settlers were about 1/3 of the population.

May 14, 1948: War breaks out between newly proclaimed state of Israel, and Egypt, Iraq, Jordan and Syria, who had moved troops into Palestine to oppose the partition of Palestine. Israeli attacks force some 800,000 Palestinians--two-thirds of the population--to flee into exile in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel seizes 77 percent of historic Palestine. The U.S. quickly recognizes Israel.

March 29, 1949: CIA backs a military coup overthrowing the elected government of Syria and establishes a military dictatorship under Colonel Za'im.

1952: U.S.-led military alliance expands into the Middle East with Turkey's admission to NATO.

1953: The CIA organizes a coup overthrowing the Mossadeq government of Iran after Mossadeq nationalizes British holdings in Iran's huge oilfields. The Shah, Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, is put on the throne, ruling as an absolute monarch for the next 25 years--torturing, killing and imprisoning his political opponents.

1955: U.S. installs powerful radar system in Turkey to spy on the Soviet Union.

- http://revcom.us/a/v23/1120-29/1125/timeline.htm


Now seriously, you tell me... what would your reaction be towards England if they helped Mexico take over Texas and Arizona? Or overthrew Reagan and our entire government to install a monarchy?

But no, I'm sure they hate our Freedom. Not our meddling.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:12 pm

kiryan wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the difference between your made up Tim and muslim extremist would be 30+ years of history including:



No, the real difference is that we didn't actually spend 50 years fucking with Tim's life.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 09, 2010 10:24 pm

9 Months before 9/11:

January 2001: Tenth anniversary of the U.S. war on Iraq: sanctions are still in place and the UN estimates that 4,500 children are dying per month from disease and malnutrition as a result. The U.S. planes, which have flown over 280,000 sorties in Iraq over the past decade, continue to attack from the air. In the past two years, over 300 Iraqis have been killed in these bombings.

So yeah, you tell me why they hate us.

This isn't even republican or democrat, it's been systemic through all administrations.

THIS is why you're getting groped at the airport.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:18 pm

kiryan wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the difference between your made up Tim and muslim extremist would be 30+ years of history including:

The massacare of Israeli olympiads in Munich
the USS Cole
Iran hostage crisis
PAN AM and a bunch of hijackings in the 80s
9/11
UK subway attacks
Mumbai
a whole host of unsuccessful attacks

don't worry, you'll die from cancer, heart disease, or diabetes, as will pretty much everyone on this forum
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 10, 2010 3:53 pm

Kindi wrote:
kiryan wrote:I don't necessarily disagree with you, but the difference between your made up Tim and muslim extremist would be 30+ years of history including:

The massacare of Israeli olympiads in Munich
the USS Cole
Iran hostage crisis
PAN AM and a bunch of hijackings in the 80s
9/11
UK subway attacks
Mumbai
a whole host of unsuccessful attacks

don't worry, you'll die from cancer, heart disease, or diabetes, as will pretty much everyone on this forum



Actually, I plan to die from taking on increasingly risky hobbies as I get older. So, probably will die wrestling an alligator when I'm 72...
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Vaprak » Thu Nov 11, 2010 12:52 am

The TSA is nothing more than security theater that makes people feel safe to fly, even though it doesn't actually make anything safer. It is an enormous waste of taxpayer money. You could make it such that everyone had to take off all their clothes and put on hospital gowns before boarding a plane, and all the bad guys would do is laugh at how stupid we are and target trains, or busses, or schools, or cars, or shopping malls, or government buildings, or colleges, or busy streets, or football games, or bar mitzvas, or women's book clubs instead. In a world with a near infinite number of potential targets it makes almost no sense at all to attempt to protect the targets.

Realistically the only things that keep airlines any more safe than they were prior to 9/11 and that have actually thwarted any attempts are: reinforcing the cockpit door and never opening it during flight, and good old fashioned intelligence and footwork. The rest is just responding to threats that have already been attempted and are there to make us like we are doing "something".

It's amazing how difficult of a time most people have of trying to do proper and rational risk management.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 11, 2010 3:10 am

Things I was allowed on board: 3 glass bottles purchased after security, 1 recalled dell battery and laptop that "could explode" during use, and the food they gave us on the plane.

Airport security, however, isn't a joke. You're going to be able to slip weapons onto the plane without a problem. Sometimes, it's specifically allowed, even. No one is taking down an American airliner post 9/11 with box cutters. They just need to keep the heavy stuff off the plane - guns, explosives, etc. Some of it is security theater, for sure, but generally, people don't get guns on board and explosives detection is pretty good. Problem is that perfectly sealed packages cleaned with the right solvent could make it chemically undetectable.

Oh well.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:26 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Some of it is security theater, for sure, but generally, people don't get guns on board and explosives detection is pretty good.

how many bad things have they stopped from getting on board? i haven't seen a single news article ever saying that TSA stopped anyone who was actually a threat

latest: ban on printer cartridges. since that's the last place they tried a bomb. genius....

http://crankyflier.com/2010/11/09/tsa-o ... ow-banned/
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Vaprak » Thu Nov 11, 2010 1:12 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Some of it is security theater, for sure, but generally, people don't get guns on board and explosives detection is pretty good.

how many bad things have they stopped from getting on board? i haven't seen a single news article ever saying that TSA stopped anyone who was actually a threat

latest: ban on printer cartridges. since that's the last place they tried a bomb. genius....

http://crankyflier.com/2010/11/09/tsa-o ... ow-banned/



Sucks too, because it shoots my plan to smuggle black tar heroin in toner cartridges :(

This is a prime example of responding to yesterday's threats with an overblown reaction that will not actually stop any attacks.

If the TSA was so good at their job there would be news of their heroic deeds plastered all over the media about how they stopped thousands of terrorist attacks. I've yet to see one.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:10 pm

In Government We Trust

I'm not a fan of the TSA, I do think it costs a lot of money and I'm unsure about the actual effect on security.

Good point about the lack of bombings in public places. It takes a lot of explosives to kill people in the open (even in a crowded place). A huge suicide bombing will kill 25ish people. It takes multiple to kill more than 50. It takes a relatively small amount to blow up a plane and kill 200+.

I would expect them to shift to more successful attacks, but blowing up an airplane is kinda like the stanley cup of a jihadist's life.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 11, 2010 8:29 pm

Kindi wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:Some of it is security theater, for sure, but generally, people don't get guns on board and explosives detection is pretty good.

how many bad things have they stopped from getting on board? i haven't seen a single news article ever saying that TSA stopped anyone who was actually a threat

latest: ban on printer cartridges. since that's the last place they tried a bomb. genius....

http://crankyflier.com/2010/11/09/tsa-o ... ow-banned/

"On average, our officers find about two guns a day at checkpoints."

If I were you, I would try google first.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:34 pm

i said "actually a threat"

a gun is NOT actually a threat unless someone has the desire or stupidity to use that gun. plz state how many of those two ppl per day with guns were arrested as terrorists or hijackers. oh wait none......

this is just like when they were talking about that New York car 'bomb':

"That bomb could have killed thousands of people!!"
"How?"
"If he had added some explosives!"
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Thu Nov 11, 2010 9:49 pm

Firearms on an airplane are definitely a threat simply because the consequences of a fired round are greatly magnified by the environment. People get on to planes thinking they will be completely fine occasionally freak out and try to open a door. That and while someone may be killed by a stray bullet on the ground, a stray bullet could cause a few hundred deaths.

Furthermore, if they are stopped by the TSA, they aren't a threat. There are plenty of news articles of the TSA stopping explosives and firearms, you just haven't read any of them.

Finally, you asked "how many bad things have they stopped from getting on board?" I indicated that they stopped two guns per day. Perhaps you haven't read your own post either.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Thu Nov 11, 2010 10:07 pm

mythbusters had a cool episode about guns on a plane. basically they couldn't do any real damage until they upgraded to a shaped C4 charge placed on the window.

and they don't open the reinforced cockpit doors any more, so you can't get the pilots... and even everyday Dutch guys are ready to jump seats to tackle someone now (underwear bomber).

i don't see why you're so afraid. the security crap kills more ppl than it saves, since ppl will drive instead, and 10s of thousands of americans die in car accidents every year.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/arc ... nce/32705/

"Goldberg: Do you think it's only a matter of time before an airplane is blown up, or is this something that is still avoidable?

Schneier: The fact that we even ask this question illustrates something fundamentally wrong with how our society deals with risk. Of course 100% security is impossible; it has always been impossible and always will be. We'll never get the murder, burglary, or terrorism rate down to zero; 42,000 people will die each year in car crashes in the U.S. for the foreseeable future; life itself will always include risk. But that's okay. Despite fearful rhetoric to the contrary, terrorism is not a transcendent threat. A terrorist attack cannot possibly destroy our country's way of life; it's only our reaction to that attack that can do that kind of damage. "
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:25 am

I did catch that episode of Mythbusters and I have a serious beef with their "test." First of all, there wasn't 560 mph winds buffeting the thin aluminum skin, seeking any nook or crevice to latch onto and drag. Secondly, the air temperature 'up there' is around -40 degrees Fahrenheit. Or lower. Any engineer can tell you that this has profound effects on how metals like aluminum react to changes, stress, and pressure.

It's not to say that I advocate greater security theater, no, the opposite, I'm against it. But a threat is a threat. If it's a great enough threat, we should find the least invasive, most cost effective way of implementing a serious mitigation of that threat.

Taking over an airplane 9/11 style is no longer possible. People have woken up from the sheep-like state of "let the terrorists do what they want and the government will take care of the rest." Most terrorist threats against aircraft are to bring them down. They target aircraft because only the rich use them.

But you have to consider non-terrorist threats as well. Like Joe Blow that thinks he's going to save the plane with his snub nose .22, only to flip out during a flight and pop some muslim looking people just trying to get to the bathroom. And then hope he didn't bring any hardware heavy enough to puncture hydraulic lines.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 12, 2010 3:38 am

Teflor Lyorian wrote:It's not to say that I advocate greater security theater, no, the opposite, I'm against it. But a threat is a threat. If it's a great enough threat, we should find the least invasive, most cost effective way of implementing a serious mitigation of that threat.

agreed. if only everyone would have the same thresholds...
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Corth » Fri Nov 12, 2010 4:57 am

I think you guys are missing the point. The security 'show of force' isn't necessarily to deter further hijackings. As others have mentioned there are some very basic and non-intrusive means to protect against that. Rather, I think a large part of it is to convince the public that it is safe to fly - that the issue is being addressed. Keep in mind there was concern following 9/11 that people would stop flying, etc. They are showing us that they are 'on top' of things.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:25 pm

mostly agreed Corth. i thought it was also to deliver pork barrel spending to security device makers and so the govt can be tough on terror. "we must do something - this is something - therefore we will do this".

latest is a rape victim given the enhanced pat down by a male TSA agent. (scanner images might be NSFW)

http://pncminnesota.wordpress.com/2010/ ... -pat-down/
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:29 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:They target aircraft because only the rich use them.



See Teflor, the thing with you is that even when you're making good points and a sane, rational argument... you still have something completely delusional to throw in the mix.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:37 pm

Sarvis wrote:See Teflor, the thing with you is that even when you're making good points and a sane, rational argument... you still have something completely delusional to throw in the mix.

see, sarvis, and the thing with you is that even when teflor is making sane, rational arguments you pick the one sentence you might have some disagreement with to post about insteaed
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:40 pm

Kindi wrote:
Sarvis wrote:See Teflor, the thing with you is that even when you're making good points and a sane, rational argument... you still have something completely delusional to throw in the mix.

see, sarvis, and the thing with you is that even when teflor is making sane, rational arguments you pick the one sentence you might have some disagreement with to post about insteaed


Sure, but that only happens like once a year anyway... ;)
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Kindi » Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:24 am

apparently once you enter the screening area, they're not supposed to let you leave until they give you a pat down or scan, even if you refuse both and just want to cancel the flight. or especially. because ppl who refuse to give up their rights obviously have something to hide.

http://johnnyedge.blogspot.com/2010/11/ ... tween.html

"At this point, I thought it was all over. I began to make my way to the stairs to exit the airport, when I was approached by another man in slacks and a sport coat. He was accompanied by the officer that had escorted me to the ticketing area and Mr. Silva. He informed me that I could not leave the airport. He said that once I start the screening in the secure area, I could not leave until it was completed. Having left the area, he stated, I would be subject to a civil suit and a $10,000 fine."
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 12:20 am

Sarvis wrote:
Kindi wrote:
Sarvis wrote:See Teflor, the thing with you is that even when you're making good points and a sane, rational argument... you still have something completely delusional to throw in the mix.

see, sarvis, and the thing with you is that even when teflor is making sane, rational arguments you pick the one sentence you might have some disagreement with to post about insteaed


Sure, but that only happens like once a year anyway... ;)

wth is going on
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:54 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:They target aircraft because only the rich use them.



See Teflor, the thing with you is that even when you're making good points and a sane, rational argument... you still have something completely delusional to throw in the mix.

I think you'll find, Sarvis, that only people in the top 5% of income in the world use airlines, with very few exceptions outside of that.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 16, 2010 8:58 pm

It took you 5 days to come up with that? :roll:
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:01 pm

Sarvis wrote:It took you 5 days to come up with that? :roll:

No, it took me 5 days to feel like reading your post. I do read what you write, it's just not particularly important.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:29 pm

Whatever floats your boat. Of course, you replied to another post of mine which was written after, and happened to contain, the other reply... so there's that.

Oh, what the hell. You were saying they target airplanes instead of other American targets because only "rich people" use airplanes. So do you believe American poor people, who are rich by most foreign standards, not use planes? Or do American poor people still count as rich to terrorists, in which case an airplane is no more a valid target than Times Square would be?

Cause I gotta tell you, when I was a kid and needed food stamps to stay fed... I still occasionally got on an airplane.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:41 pm

This one is too funny not to share:
Image
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:47 pm

Sarvis wrote:Whatever floats your boat. Of course, you replied to another post of mine which was written after, and happened to contain, the other reply... so there's that.

Sometimes, I stop scrolling up, and I have no fixed direction for reading. Do you really still have a problem with this?

Sarvis wrote:Oh, what the hell. You were saying they target airplanes instead of other American targets because only "rich people" use airplanes. So do you believe American poor people, who are rich by most foreign standards, not use planes? Or do American poor people still count as rich to terrorists, in which case an airplane is no more a valid target than Times Square would be?

It's ironic that you say that AND Times Square was recently a target of attempted terrorism. I'm simply going to let what I've already said stand, it makes sense and there's ample evidence, especially considering that the average plane ticket costs more than what two median households in Vietnam make in a year. And we're not even talking about Africa yet!

Sarvis wrote:Cause I gotta tell you, when I was a kid and needed food stamps to stay fed... I still occasionally got on an airplane.

If you think you were poor, it's because you don't know what poor actually is.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Tue Nov 16, 2010 9:53 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Whatever floats your boat. Of course, you replied to another post of mine which was written after, and happened to contain, the other reply... so there's that.

Sometimes, I stop scrolling up, and I have no fixed direction for reading. Do you really still have a problem with this?

Sarvis wrote:Oh, what the hell. You were saying they target airplanes instead of other American targets because only "rich people" use airplanes. So do you believe American poor people, who are rich by most foreign standards, not use planes? Or do American poor people still count as rich to terrorists, in which case an airplane is no more a valid target than Times Square would be?

It's ironic that you say that AND Times Square was recently a target of attempted terrorism. I'm simply going to let what I've already said stand, it makes sense and there's ample evidence, especially considering that the average plane ticket costs more than what two median households in Vietnam make in a year. And we're not even talking about Africa yet!

Sarvis wrote:Cause I gotta tell you, when I was a kid and needed food stamps to stay fed... I still occasionally got on an airplane.

If you think you were poor, it's because you don't know what poor actually is.



So please explain why Terrorists target, and will continue to target, planes when there are so many other valid targets? Only rich people use crowded malls at Christmas, right?

In fact, only rich people use anything at all on American soil... and most of these other things have piss poor security compared to an airplane even BEFORE the draconian TSA measures.

And yes, I'll talk about being poor. Because if you can't afford/obtain food, you're poor no matter what country you're living in or what non-food objects you're surrounded by.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Pril » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:10 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Whatever floats your boat. Of course, you replied to another post of mine which was written after, and happened to contain, the other reply... so there's that.

Sometimes, I stop scrolling up, and I have no fixed direction for reading. Do you really still have a problem with this?

Sarvis wrote:Oh, what the hell. You were saying they target airplanes instead of other American targets because only "rich people" use airplanes. So do you believe American poor people, who are rich by most foreign standards, not use planes? Or do American poor people still count as rich to terrorists, in which case an airplane is no more a valid target than Times Square would be?

It's ironic that you say that AND Times Square was recently a target of attempted terrorism. I'm simply going to let what I've already said stand, it makes sense and there's ample evidence, especially considering that the average plane ticket costs more than what two median households in Vietnam make in a year. And we're not even talking about Africa yet!

Sarvis wrote:Cause I gotta tell you, when I was a kid and needed food stamps to stay fed... I still occasionally got on an airplane.

If you think you were poor, it's because you don't know what poor actually is.



So please explain why Terrorists target, and will continue to target, planes when there are so many other valid targets? Only rich people use crowded malls at Christmas, right?

In fact, only rich people use anything at all on American soil... and most of these other things have piss poor security compared to an airplane even BEFORE the draconian TSA measures.

And yes, I'll talk about being poor. Because if you can't afford/obtain food, you're poor no matter what country you're living in or what non-food objects you're surrounded by.


Are you poor if you can't afford/obtain food, yet are able to afford/obtain a carton of cigarettes a day?
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:13 pm

This is a pissing contest and I will not participate. My argument isn't shaken at all. The richest people in the world are the ones that use airplanes, specifically, many Americans. The median income and wealth of those currently in the air is twenty to fifty fold greater than those currently on the ground. If the rich never flew, terrorists would have few reasons to target airplanes.

None of that is a delusion. "But I thought I was poor," isn't a substantial argument.
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:22 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:This is a pissing contest and I will not participate. My argument isn't shaken at all. The richest people in the world are the ones that use airplanes, specifically, many Americans. The median income and wealth of those currently in the air is twenty to fifty fold greater than those currently on the ground. If the rich never flew, terrorists would have few reasons to target airplanes.

None of that is a delusion. "But I thought I was poor," isn't a substantial argument.



The argument wasn't about me being poor. The argument is that any non-airplane target is just as valid viewed through your "rich" lens and much easier to attack.

Care to deal with that point?
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:24 pm

Pril wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Whatever floats your boat. Of course, you replied to another post of mine which was written after, and happened to contain, the other reply... so there's that.

Sometimes, I stop scrolling up, and I have no fixed direction for reading. Do you really still have a problem with this?

Sarvis wrote:Oh, what the hell. You were saying they target airplanes instead of other American targets because only "rich people" use airplanes. So do you believe American poor people, who are rich by most foreign standards, not use planes? Or do American poor people still count as rich to terrorists, in which case an airplane is no more a valid target than Times Square would be?

It's ironic that you say that AND Times Square was recently a target of attempted terrorism. I'm simply going to let what I've already said stand, it makes sense and there's ample evidence, especially considering that the average plane ticket costs more than what two median households in Vietnam make in a year. And we're not even talking about Africa yet!

Sarvis wrote:Cause I gotta tell you, when I was a kid and needed food stamps to stay fed... I still occasionally got on an airplane.

If you think you were poor, it's because you don't know what poor actually is.



So please explain why Terrorists target, and will continue to target, planes when there are so many other valid targets? Only rich people use crowded malls at Christmas, right?

In fact, only rich people use anything at all on American soil... and most of these other things have piss poor security compared to an airplane even BEFORE the draconian TSA measures.

And yes, I'll talk about being poor. Because if you can't afford/obtain food, you're poor no matter what country you're living in or what non-food objects you're surrounded by.


Are you poor if you can't afford/obtain food, yet are able to afford/obtain a carton of cigarettes a day?


Yes, because every poor person in America smokes a carton a day. :roll:
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Re: TSA groping

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Nov 17, 2010 2:39 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Teflor Lyorian wrote:This is a pissing contest and I will not participate. My argument isn't shaken at all. The richest people in the world are the ones that use airplanes, specifically, many Americans. The median income and wealth of those currently in the air is twenty to fifty fold greater than those currently on the ground. If the rich never flew, terrorists would have few reasons to target airplanes.

None of that is a delusion. "But I thought I was poor," isn't a substantial argument.



The argument wasn't about me being poor. The argument is that any non-airplane target is just as valid viewed through your "rich" lens and much easier to attack.

Care to deal with that point?

Let me try to explain this to you. There is no need for terrorists to consider bad or low value targets like shopping malls, because the damage they can do is extremely limited and they are likely to be stopped quickly.

Out of all the high-value terrorist targets: infrastructure, roadways, rails, etc., planes are an exceptionally good target because they're filled with rich people. That is why terrorists target them.

And again, I repeat: If the rich never flew, terrorists would have few reasons to target airplanes.

You know this to be true, so stop with the pissing contest. The real issue here is that you still haven't accepted the fact that Americans are rich, even the ones that consider themselves poor. Because the rich are the ones that are flying, it means the air is filled with a disproportionate number of Americans.
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