Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

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Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 3:38 pm

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/richard-g ... 44374.html

While a lone preacher in Florida burned a copy of the Koran, a Broadway show opened in New York making fun of the Mormon faith with irreverent humor and sacrilegious musical numbers.

== a burning video vs an ENTIRE BROADWAY PRODUCTION.

While burning the Koran is religiously intolerant and insensitive to our Muslim brothers and sisters, to suggest that it endangers American lives in and of itself is ridiculous.

== well, it shouldn't and you can philosophize about it, but the reality is it does. Burn a koran in any muslim country and I'm going to suggest you get killed 95% of the time.

President Barack Obama's statement on the UN murders also wasn't helpful in teaching religious tolerance. Obama elevated the Koran burning to an extreme offense and therefore gave comfort to an extreme reaction. "The desecration of any holy text, including the Koran, is an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry," said Obama. The White House's use of the word extreme was inappropriate for this situation.

== or is that free speech. Why is speaking out against islam basically hate speech while speaking out about judeo christian is just educated and informed.

Compare American liberals' reaction to the Koran burning with their gleeful embrace of Trey Parker's and Matt Stone's Broadway musical about the Mormon faith. A musical with a song called: "Fuck you, God" and described by the authors as an "atheist love letter to religion". New York Magazine said, "What's so uniquely winning about The Book of Mormon is its scruffy humanism, its eagerness to redeem its characters -- even its smaller ones." And Jon Stewart was left speechless after he said "it was so good, I almost don't know what to say." The reviews for the musical have been the best any modern Broadway show has ever seen. And very few liberals have condemned the defilement of the Mormon Church's holy text as Obama has for the Koran.

== liberal hipocrisy on display

If we believe that desecrating a religion's holy text endangers lives then so does the accolades and support for The Book of Mormon on Broadway.

== yep.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 4:33 pm

I suspect there is a difference between desecrating religious artifacts and simply stating the religion is dumb.

In fact, you could even paint burning a book as an infringement on free speech because he is censoring the author in a fashion. Meanwhile a broadway play is in and of itself free speech.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Ragorn » Mon Apr 04, 2011 5:53 pm

Luckily, it's not illegal to stage a Broadway play or burn a religious book, so "freedom of speech" is being equally upheld in both cases.

Or did you want us to try to defend Trey Parker's sense of moral equivalence somehow?
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:12 pm

They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 6:46 pm

Corth wrote:They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.



My P&P gaming group does all kinds of really dumb shit. Most of the time it's just fun and games, but there are certain things you don't do. For instance, after digging up a graveyard and getting surrounded by wights, then getting rock grubs from looting a 100 year old kobold corpse we have one big rule: Don't touch the dead things! (Does not apply to Vampire/Call of Cthulu of course.)

Point is it's well within reason to get upset at stupidity that actually causes danger for everyone else, while ignoring seemingly similar behaviors that do NOT cause danger for everyone else.

Same thing applies to smoking by yourself vs. smoking in a bar.

Pissing off Mormons is NOT the same thing as pissing off Muslims. (Also, I saw an interview with Matt and Trey and it seems like the Mormon's actually enjoy the play. So not sure this even qualifies as offensive to them anyway, which means that Kiryan is doubly reaching.)
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 7:59 pm

wow seriously?

first from the article that you obviously didn't read.

For American Mormons, the Broadway show and its embrace by the mainstream and liberal media has been embarrassing and humiliating.

== does that clear up whether or not its offensive?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints issued a statement saying, "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ."

== If it wasn't offensive, why did they bother to release an official statement?


Now secondly, your complete failure in rational thinking. Are you seriously saying that its ok to act in an offensive manner towards one religion because their people aren't quick to take offense, but its not ok to act that way towards a different religion.... you think that's a valid argument and rational behavior?

and before you come up with some crazy reason why burning a koran is different than the obviously "unoffensive" production of a broadway show that makes fun of Mormons... below are two articles on burning of the bible. One by the US military in Afghanistan. Where was Obama calling for an end to this hateful and bigotry of burning the Bible by our military? The other is some crazy pastor burning other "satanic" versions of the bible because only the KJV is true.

http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiap ... es.burned/

May 22, 2009

(CNN) -- Military personnel threw away, and ultimately burned, confiscated Bibles that were printed in the two most common Afghan languages amid concern they would be used to try to convert Afghans, a Defense Department spokesman said Tuesday.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religio ... rning.html
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:07 pm

kiryan wrote:wow seriously?

first from the article that you obviously didn't read.

For American Mormons, the Broadway show and its embrace by the mainstream and liberal media has been embarrassing and humiliating.

== does that clear up whether or not its offensive?


Is it a Mormon writing that?

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints issued a statement saying, "The production may attempt to entertain audiences for an evening, but the Book of Mormon as a volume of scripture will change people's lives forever by bringing them closer to Christ."

== If it wasn't offensive, why did they bother to release an official statement?


Yeah, he really, really, REALLY sounds offended there! Look at the harsh criticism hidden within "may attempt to entertain!" He's clearly more pissed off about this than anyone else ever has been in the history of everything!

For fuck's sake he's issuing a statement because idiots like you are trying to MAKE it seem offensive to Mormon's and it gives him a chance to be relevant and pimp his religion. He didn't say anything bad about the play, he said his Bible will bring you closer to Christ.



Now secondly, your complete failure in rational thinking. Are you seriously saying that its ok to act in an offensive manner towards one religion because their people aren't quick to take offense, but its not ok to act that way towards a different religion.... you think that's a valid argument and rational behavior?


Yes.

Just like it's rational not to go around badmouthing the CEO of your company, yet many people talk shit about their coworkers constantly. See, it is rational to evaluate the potential threat a person/group poses before you risk doing anything offensive to them.

Mormons: Not threatening
Muslims: Fly planes into towers

Self-preservation is rational.

and before you come up with some crazy reason why burning a koran is different than the obviously "unoffensive" production of a broadway show that makes fun of Mormons...


Worlds of difference, but that's not my point now is it? My point is that you don't piss off people who will hurt you, unless you are willing to risk being hurt.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:14 pm

While it's illegal to use free speech to incite violence, what someone else said isn't a defense for visiting violence upon other people.

The line is drawn simply by either the opinion of a jury or the opinion of a judge based on precedence set by other cases.

In this case, Kiryan is demonstrating that the line is drawn in different places for Mormons and Muslims because Sarvis is a discriminator.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Mon Apr 04, 2011 8:55 pm

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.



My P&P gaming group does all kinds of really dumb shit. Most of the time it's just fun and games, but there are certain things you don't do. For instance, after digging up a graveyard and getting surrounded by wights, then getting rock grubs from looting a 100 year old kobold corpse we have one big rule: Don't touch the dead things! (Does not apply to Vampire/Call of Cthulu of course.)

Point is it's well within reason to get upset at stupidity that actually causes danger for everyone else, while ignoring seemingly similar behaviors that do NOT cause danger for everyone else.

Same thing applies to smoking by yourself vs. smoking in a bar.

Pissing off Mormons is NOT the same thing as pissing off Muslims. (Also, I saw an interview with Matt and Trey and it seems like the Mormon's actually enjoy the play. So not sure this even qualifies as offensive to them anyway, which means that Kiryan is doubly reaching.)


That's a very fair point.

Here is my question to you. If Mormons were killing random people because they were made fun of on Broadway, would we tell Trey Parker and Matt Stone that they should stop producing their play? Or would we defend their right to make fun of Mormons and then crack down on the murderous bastards?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:14 pm

Is it a Mormon writing that?

== no, but I talked to two Mormons today who stated to me that they find the musicals offensive and disrespectful.

Yeah, he really, really, REALLY sounds offended there! Look at the harsh criticism hidden within "may attempt to entertain!" He's clearly more pissed off about this than anyone else ever has been in the history of everything!

For fuck's sake he's issuing a statement because idiots like you are trying to MAKE it seem offensive to Mormon's and it gives him a chance to be relevant and pimp his religion. He didn't say anything bad about the play, he said his Bible will bring you closer to Christ.

== FFS yourself. Just because they have the maturity not to respond with negativity to the obvious insult, doesn't mean its not offensive. There is no way to take the criticism of their religion that isn't offensive.

Worlds of difference, but that's not my point now is it? My point is that you don't piss off people who will hurt you, unless you are willing to risk being hurt.

== You're right, there are worlds of difference between burning a koran and staging a multi million dollar broadway production. One can be done at a whim and with a can of gas and a match, the other requires months of planning, millions of dollars and thousands of hours of effort to come up with the most offensive targetted production possible... and yet the easier act is the more offensive one and testifies of biogry and hate and is condemned by the president, secretary of state and top general of the most powerful military in the world, while the broadway production is what ... creative American genius and free speech?
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:21 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.



My P&P gaming group does all kinds of really dumb shit. Most of the time it's just fun and games, but there are certain things you don't do. For instance, after digging up a graveyard and getting surrounded by wights, then getting rock grubs from looting a 100 year old kobold corpse we have one big rule: Don't touch the dead things! (Does not apply to Vampire/Call of Cthulu of course.)

Point is it's well within reason to get upset at stupidity that actually causes danger for everyone else, while ignoring seemingly similar behaviors that do NOT cause danger for everyone else.

Same thing applies to smoking by yourself vs. smoking in a bar.

Pissing off Mormons is NOT the same thing as pissing off Muslims. (Also, I saw an interview with Matt and Trey and it seems like the Mormon's actually enjoy the play. So not sure this even qualifies as offensive to them anyway, which means that Kiryan is doubly reaching.)


That's a very fair point.

Here is my question to you. If Mormons were killing random people because they were made fun of on Broadway, would we tell Trey Parker and Matt Stone that they should stop producing their play? Or would we defend their right to make fun of Mormons and then crack down on the murderous bastards?


Well here's the problem, and the reason terrorism works:

The people creating the "offensive" content will most likely not be the ones to suffer. (And because several people here seem incapable of viewing a realistic analysis of a situation as anything but defending terrorism: THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE MUSLIM/TERRORIST ACTION.) So let's say there were violent mormon's suicide bombing banks, markets and local community theaters because of Matt and Trey's words. My counter-question to you is: Should Matt and Trey decide for other people whether or not to take that risk?
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 9:57 pm

Oh to live in your world where everything is so simple. Let me ask you a question.

What exactly is the "west" that the Islamist extremists hate?

I guarantee you its not just desecrating the koran, cartoons of mohammed or wars in muslim countries / Israel. So shall we limit everything in "western" society that Islamists hate because they might kill someone who is innocent of the specific thing they hate? Like bikini's, gay marriage, pretty much everything hollywood produces and saying God damnit (that is a capital crime in Islam btw)?

They will be offended as long as we fail to live an Islamic life so how far are you ready to accomodate them because they might kill someone innocent? I'm curious... do you think abortion and sex ed should be preserved in order to not offend them? Would you be out there rallying against pre-marital sex if they Islamists were rioting and killing people over it?

Yea I know, I just don't get it. I hope to never "get it" like you do.
Last edited by kiryan on Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:02 pm

Koran Burned -> UN Attacked and people killed
New Issue of Playboy Hits News Stands -> Nothing happened

I'm not saying they will suddenly like us, I'm saying that YOU should not put OTHER PEOPLE in danger by deliberately pissing off people who will strop dynamite to themselves and walk into a crowded market.

You're right, you never will "get it" because you don't give a shit if people die. It's all abstract to you and you don't understand the point of life anyway.

Frankly I wouldn't even care if the retribution were leveled at the person who burned the Koran. The problem is that it gets leveled at other people who have done nothing.

But you don't care, because it doesn't matter if peoples' lives are cut short right? All part of God's plan after all!
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Kifle » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:06 pm

kiryan wrote:Yeah, he really, really, REALLY sounds offended there! Look at the harsh criticism hidden within "may attempt to entertain!" He's clearly more pissed off about this than anyone else ever has been in the history of everything!

For fuck's sake he's issuing a statement because idiots like you are trying to MAKE it seem offensive to Mormon's and it gives him a chance to be relevant and pimp his religion. He didn't say anything bad about the play, he said his Bible will bring you closer to Christ.

== FFS yourself. Just because they have the maturity not to respond with negativity to the obvious insult, doesn't mean its not offensive. There is no way to take the criticism of their religion that isn't offensive.


Seems to me like you're reaching. You're putting words into the man's mouth that he never spoke. You're assuming feelings that were not displayed. Until there is an actual report of the Mormon church taking insult to the play, the best you can do is take what he said for what it is -- which is him acknowledging the musical and advertising his religion. In fact, I think his statement was well done and am impressed by it. Maybe he just understands that religion is faith and everyone is entitled to their opinion. Since the play does not demonize the religion, I don't think he has much of a problem with it.

As to the original intent to connect the two, the effect of speech is where speech becomes different in these situations, as it is in many. I can say this and that is gay or this and that is retarded, using the words pejoratively in good humor or as colloquial speech, in most situations; however, will I do it at a friends house whose brother is retarded and or gay? What if the guy gets violent when hearing someone use those words in that manner? I think it is my best bet to not use that language around him. This is called tact. It is common sense when and where to do or say a certain thing. Words, in and of themselves, are not dangerous, hurtful, evil, good, or useful. In conjunction, they hold the same properties. It is the personal meaning we as individuals attach to them that makes them anything other than what they are -- sounds/ideas. So, it follows by necessity that the time, place, and audience is the determining factor of whether or not words or ideas are "wrong". In the case of the Koran burning, and the implied words through ideology behind them, was tactless and dangerous due to the context. It was done out of hatred, and there is a relatively large faction of followers of that book whom are violent and have shown in the past they are prepared and willing to attack this country. Then we have the musical. It was made to entertain, not make a political or religious statement. The only people who would take offense have already voiced they are, in the very worst light, apathetic to the musical. The group whom could be offended have no past of violence in general or violence against those who do not share their beliefs, way of living, or library. Again, as you can plainly see, you are reaching hard for this one.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:14 pm

So if publishing playboy = UN deaths you would be against publishing playboy? What if they were rioting against women voting and or homosexuality?

I think I pretty much understand your position, obey anyone willing to kill you to force their ideology on you. I'm curious do all your liberal friends agree with that sentiment? Maybe those "extremist" Christians and tea party members are smarter than I am.

Interesting. so it would be perfectly ok if some muslim extremist killed the koran burning pastor because he encouraged and outright deserved it.

Did you know an unescorted uncovered woman invites rape in a muslim country? that would be the actual, successful legal defense against the perpetrator... she invited the rape. She would be stoned of course for her crime. That filthy tramp would get what she deserved too wouldn't she? Homosexuals too would get what they deserve too for acting in a manner so offensive to the word of allah. But I guess thats what you get when you offend muslims.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Kifle » Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:41 pm

kiryan wrote:So if publishing playboy = UN deaths you would be against publishing playboy? What if they were rioting against women voting and or homosexuality?

I think I pretty much understand your position, obey anyone willing to kill you to force their ideology on you. I'm curious do all your liberal friends agree with that sentiment? Maybe those "extremist" Christians and tea party members are smarter than I am.

Interesting. so it would be perfectly ok if some muslim extremist killed the koran burning pastor because he encouraged and outright deserved it.

Did you know an unescorted uncovered woman invites rape in a muslim country? that would be the actual, successful legal defense against the perpetrator... she invited the rape. She would be stoned of course for her crime. That filthy tramp would get what she deserved too wouldn't she? Homosexuals too would get what they deserve too for acting in a manner so offensive to the word of allah. But I guess thats what you get when you offend muslims.


The essential argument here is not whether they should or shouldn't, but what reaction is expected and acceptable because of an action. You are compelled to expose a hypocrisy where there is none, so you meander down the road to a different argument which nobody was defending in the first place.

If we follow the logic of the argument being presented, we are stating simply that, in the case of playboy, they would have shown little tact in their publication. Do they have the right to it? Yes, very much so. Do we acknowledge that right as protected? Yes, very much so. Do we condone their use of that right? No, because they were irresponsible in exercising their rights. The same follows with the Koran burning. You can answer those same questions with the same answers given. Nothing changes. There is no hypocrisy. Having a right does not equal "right" in using that right. It is contextual.

Now, I believe Sarvis was saying that if the guy who burned the Koran did get blown up, he wouldn't care. In other words, it is meaningless inside what is being evaluated. The moral rightness of the consequential action due to the action in question is not being debated; therefore, it doesn't matter if he got killed or not outside of that it was a very real possibility since he chose the action he did. It is the possibility of the consequence, and the probability of it happening, that forces us to use tact or ignore it. In this case, he ignored tact, because I think it is fair to say that his actions were tactless. In the case of the play, because there were no real disastrous outcomes to producing it, tact in a survival aspect was not in question. Tact insofar as being insulting, yes you can question that; however, again, this is where we are attempting to outline the incongruity of the two examples.

So, to answer your question, no, it would not be right for the extremist to kill the Koran burner; however, it should be expected with a relevant degree of probability.

To your last statement, again, you are diverting the discussion from the initial arguments. Whether or not the actions of Muslim extremists are moral or right have no bearing on this discussion. We don't have to agree with an extremist position in order to understand that aggravating an extremist is not a smart move -- especially when the consequences have a relevant probability of overflowing to the innocent. So, sure, the way they treat women, to our western sensibilities, is disgusting -- as is their treatment of homosexuals; however, it is not smart to incite action towards you from those who are poised, ready, and willing to perform such action.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:04 pm

== For crying out loud. I talked to a mormon today who is offended by the play. There are mormons who are offended by South Park's creator's repeated attacks on their religion, but because they don't start killing people you two somehow think its fundamentally different action. Its just a musical, just entertainment.

"It was done out of hatred, and there is a relatively large faction of followers of that book whom are violent and have shown in the past they are prepared and willing to attack this country. "

== can you show me where the pastor that did the koran burning demonstrated hatred? Why is his action "hatred" and the musical "entertainment"?

"Then we have the musical. It was made to entertain, not make a political or religious statement."

== really. it was made to entertain huh? I'm curious how you distinguish an offensive action meant to entertain or educate vs an offensive action meant to offend. If I paid for tickets to the koran burning would that be entertainment?

The pastor who has come out and said he's trying to preach the truth, whom has never said he's trying to offend or engage in hateful speech is quite obviously engaging in hate. Yet Trey Parker and Matt Stone who have pushed every possible legal boundary in a 15 year quest on south park to offend as many things as possible (and at one point ran commercials bragging about the number of things they had offended)... is just producing entertainment?

really you expect me to believe that load of crap?

The ONLY difference here is Christians. Its ok to target and try to offend christians. Its not ok for a Christian to do something anyone might deem as offensive. Whether that is burning a koran or publishing a website/app of resources supporting homosexuals who are interested in "curing" their gayness.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Mon Apr 04, 2011 11:42 pm

If human rights were easy and never got anyone hurt, it wouldn't require the eternal vigilance of a great nation to protect.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:54 am

kiryan wrote:So if publishing playboy = UN deaths you would be against publishing playboy?


Yep.

What if they were rioting against women voting and or homosexuality?


That would be unfortunate, and we might have to revisit those issues at another time when the closed-minded idiots were less violent.

Look Kiryan, this is simple. You are saying it should be ok for 3-year olds to get trampled to death so that some Christian extremist can express an opinion thousands of miles away. Unfortunately you don't care about people, so the only piece of the argument YOU see is Cult1 vs. Cult2 sprinkled with yet another imagined Liberal hypocrisy.

I think I pretty much understand your position, obey anyone willing to kill you to force their ideology on you.


Nope. Not at all. It is MY choice to take that risk if I think it is worthwhile.

Let me ask you this: Is it ok for me to put YOUR children at risk by my actions? If I could burn a Bible knowing that Christians would react by blowing up YOUR house, would you be defending my right to burn a Bible?


Interesting. so it would be perfectly ok if some muslim extremist killed the koran burning pastor because he encouraged and outright deserved it.


No, they would still be murderers who should be brought to justice. HOWEVER, there is a difference to bringing that risk upon oneself and foisting that risk upon others.

Did you know an unescorted uncovered woman invites rape in a muslim country?


This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of what I'm saying, unless you are deliberately attempting to set up a straw man. Not sure which is worse.

that would be the actual, successful legal defense against the perpetrator... she invited the rape. She would be stoned of course for her crime. That filthy tramp would get what she deserved too wouldn't she? Homosexuals too would get what they deserve too for acting in a manner so offensive to the word of allah. But I guess thats what you get when you offend muslims.


You might note that very few women break those traditions and very few men are openly gay because they fear the violent retribution they would receive. However that is still a straw man, what we are talking about is if a woman wore a slutty outfit and YOU were raped as reprisal.

How does that sit with you Kiryan? We're not talking about brave protestors, we're talking about cowards who let other people pay for their actions.

Then again, you're a Republican and our economic woes pretty much show that's the Republican ideal.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 05, 2011 4:46 am

Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.



My P&P gaming group does all kinds of really dumb shit. Most of the time it's just fun and games, but there are certain things you don't do. For instance, after digging up a graveyard and getting surrounded by wights, then getting rock grubs from looting a 100 year old kobold corpse we have one big rule: Don't touch the dead things! (Does not apply to Vampire/Call of Cthulu of course.)

Point is it's well within reason to get upset at stupidity that actually causes danger for everyone else, while ignoring seemingly similar behaviors that do NOT cause danger for everyone else.

Same thing applies to smoking by yourself vs. smoking in a bar.

Pissing off Mormons is NOT the same thing as pissing off Muslims. (Also, I saw an interview with Matt and Trey and it seems like the Mormon's actually enjoy the play. So not sure this even qualifies as offensive to them anyway, which means that Kiryan is doubly reaching.)


That's a very fair point.

Here is my question to you. If Mormons were killing random people because they were made fun of on Broadway, would we tell Trey Parker and Matt Stone that they should stop producing their play? Or would we defend their right to make fun of Mormons and then crack down on the murderous bastards?


Well here's the problem, and the reason terrorism works:

The people creating the "offensive" content will most likely not be the ones to suffer. (And because several people here seem incapable of viewing a realistic analysis of a situation as anything but defending terrorism: THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE MUSLIM/TERRORIST ACTION.) So let's say there were violent mormon's suicide bombing banks, markets and local community theaters because of Matt and Trey's words. My counter-question to you is: Should Matt and Trey decide for other people whether or not to take that risk?


You didn't exactly answer my question. My answer to your question is that the wonderful right to free speech does not come without a cost. Yes, Matt and Trey should be able offend and inflame all they want. The alternative - they aren't allowed to - isn't preferable.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:14 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:
Corth wrote:They are both basically equal. It's just that the Mormons, who are in general civilized, aren't killing people. And fanatical elements of the other group are. I think Kiryan's beef (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the group burning the Koran is criticized harshly for it's actions whereas the other group making fun of Mormons gets a pass.



My P&P gaming group does all kinds of really dumb shit. Most of the time it's just fun and games, but there are certain things you don't do. For instance, after digging up a graveyard and getting surrounded by wights, then getting rock grubs from looting a 100 year old kobold corpse we have one big rule: Don't touch the dead things! (Does not apply to Vampire/Call of Cthulu of course.)

Point is it's well within reason to get upset at stupidity that actually causes danger for everyone else, while ignoring seemingly similar behaviors that do NOT cause danger for everyone else.

Same thing applies to smoking by yourself vs. smoking in a bar.

Pissing off Mormons is NOT the same thing as pissing off Muslims. (Also, I saw an interview with Matt and Trey and it seems like the Mormon's actually enjoy the play. So not sure this even qualifies as offensive to them anyway, which means that Kiryan is doubly reaching.)


That's a very fair point.

Here is my question to you. If Mormons were killing random people because they were made fun of on Broadway, would we tell Trey Parker and Matt Stone that they should stop producing their play? Or would we defend their right to make fun of Mormons and then crack down on the murderous bastards?


Well here's the problem, and the reason terrorism works:

The people creating the "offensive" content will most likely not be the ones to suffer. (And because several people here seem incapable of viewing a realistic analysis of a situation as anything but defending terrorism: THIS DOES NOT EXCUSE MUSLIM/TERRORIST ACTION.) So let's say there were violent mormon's suicide bombing banks, markets and local community theaters because of Matt and Trey's words. My counter-question to you is: Should Matt and Trey decide for other people whether or not to take that risk?


You didn't exactly answer my question. My answer to your question is that the wonderful right to free speech does not come without a cost. Yes, Matt and Trey should be able offend and inflame all they want. The alternative - they aren't allowed to - isn't preferable.


I didn't ask if they were allowed to, I asked if they SHOULD. Remember, no one prevented this preacher from burning the Koran. A few months ago when people (not sure if it's the same ones or not) wanted to do it, they were told that it's within their rights but is a bad idea because it could incite violence.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean it's a good idea.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:25 pm

Sure - why not? I hate the idea that speech should be stifled because some barbaric idiots decide to be violent. Absolutely they -should- do it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 05, 2011 3:49 pm

So Matt & Trey shoot their mouth off, and the response is some school in England getting blown up. You think that's a good thing.

Got it.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Botef » Tue Apr 05, 2011 6:32 pm

"I think Comedy Central totally fucking pussed out. Now, they weren't any different than anyone else, so it's not like you can single them out. But I think it would've been an important statement for one media outlet in America to stand up. That was one of my most disappointing moments as an American--the American press's reaction to the Muhammad cartoons. It was completely wimpy. Cartoonists, people who do satire--we're not in the army, we're never going to be fucking drafted and this is our time to stand up and do the right thing. And to watch the New York Times, Comedy Central, everybody just go 'No, we're not going to do it because basically we're afraid of getting bombed' sucked. I was so disappointed." - Matt Stone
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:50 pm

yep botef. Matt and Trey were going to do a sp episode on mohammed. Comedy central vetoed it for being offensive.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Tue Apr 05, 2011 8:58 pm

I'd also point out that there is a difference between Matt and Trey and this random Koran burner, in that M&T actually do tend to convey a message. Sure showing Mahommed is offensive, but their entire point was that it shouldn't be and that Muslims were getting upset over pretty much nothing.

Burning a Koran doesn't say anything except that you wanted to piss off Muslims.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 05, 2011 9:41 pm

orly Sarvis. I seriously wonder whether you bother to read the articles and do any research before making your comments.

The pastor in this case conducted a mock trial, laying out his case for why the Koran was bad, then sentenced it to burn.

He is trying to educate... in his own misguided manner.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:07 am

kiryan wrote:orly Sarvis. I seriously wonder whether you bother to read the articles and do any research before making your comments.

The answer is no.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 06, 2011 12:35 pm

Sarvis wrote:So Matt & Trey shoot their mouth off, and the response is some school in England getting blown up. You think that's a good thing.

Got it.


The alternative is that we let the bullies walk all over us. At some point everyone makes a decision about what kind of person they are going to be. Are you going to stand up for what is right or hide meekly in the corner?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:13 pm

Try and mock scientology :)
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 07, 2011 3:45 pm

Corth wrote:
Sarvis wrote:So Matt & Trey shoot their mouth off, and the response is some school in England getting blown up. You think that's a good thing.

Got it.


The alternative is that we let the bullies walk all over us. At some point everyone makes a decision about what kind of person they are going to be. Are you going to stand up for what is right or hide meekly in the corner?


The world must be a terrible place when every problem has two and only two possible solutions, each at the very opposite extreme.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 07, 2011 7:30 pm

The world is a terrible place when people lose the courage to stand up and evenly apply their principles instead of selectively applying them when it fits their narrative and their liberal interests.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:16 pm

I keep forgetting principles can only be applied in Kiryan Approved ways! Too bad my principle is that being confrontational and violent only breeds more confrontation and violence, and what your preacher did was confrontational. What Matt and Trey did, however, was not. There's a difference between satire and calling someone a jerk, that's all there is to it.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:16 pm

He's not my preacher Sarvis. I live about 2,500 miles from him and I don't even know his name. I'm not sure how you got the idea that he's "my" preacher. Maybe he's "your" preacher to a muslim living in Pakistan because he's an American.

I don't understand how you make the distinction between satire and offense other than its dependent on the reaction. Matt and Trey called Tom Cruise a closet homo. How is that satire? If satire is ok, then why was their mohammed episode censored by Comedy Central but the episodes portraying Jesus as a bumbling idiot ran?

Also if you want to use the confrontational standpoint... are you standing with or against the hippies in the 60s who rallied against vietnam and burned american flags? Are you standing with the protesting Americans who rallied and even vandalized military recruitment centers in the US during Bush's term? Are you standing with or against the confrontatinoal actions of college universities that kicked military recruiters off their campuses? Are you for or against the Madison protesters who attempted to STOP the work of their democratically elected representatives?

Your distinction between confrontational behavior that is "racist, biggoted and evil" appears to be when its in opposition to your views... Again, the liberal position.... its ok when I do it, but racism and mean spirited when you do it.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:29 pm

kiryan wrote:He's not my preacher Sarvis. I live about 2,500 miles from him and I don't even know his name. I'm not sure how you got the idea that he's "my" preacher. Maybe he's "your" preacher to a muslim living in Pakistan because he's an American.


You really need to do more reading. Your preacher as in the one you are talking about and brought up in this thread. The funny thing is that at 2500 miles away you still might be the one to pay the price for his "speech."

I don't understand how you make the distinction between satire and offense other than its dependent on the reaction.


No, it's dependent on how it's presented and how much actual content there is. There was nothing satirical about burning the Koran. His mock trial maybe, but burning the koran was JUST meant to offend people and get attention. We don't even burn prisoners in this country, so if he were trying to keep with his theme he'd have put the Koran in jail. It's blatantly obvious he mostly meant to cause offense.

Compare to Matt and Trey who grew up around a lot of Mormon's and are incredibly familiar with them. Sure, they make fun of Mormonism in the play but from what I've heard they also show the good qualities of Mormons as well. They are trying to be funny, rather than trying to offend.

THAT is the difference.

Matt and Trey called Tom Cruise a closet homo. How is that satire?


Where did I ever say everything Matt and Trey does is satire? There are definitely times when they are trying to offend or be vulgar. At least Half of South Park depends on it, actually.



If satire is ok, then why was their mohammed episode censored by Comedy Central but the episodes portraying Jesus as a bumbling idiot ran?


Not sure that either episode qualifies as satire, but that's besides the point. The Mohammed episode did not run for exactly the reasons I've been pointing out to you: Comedy Central didn't want people to get killed for what Matt and Trey said.


Also if you want to use the confrontational standpoint... are you standing with or against the hippies in the 60s who rallied against vietnam and burned american flags? Are you standing with the protesting Americans who rallied and even vandalized military recruitment centers in the US during Bush's term? Are you standing with or against the confrontatinoal actions of college universities that kicked military recruiters off their campuses? Are you for or against the Madison protesters who attempted to STOP the work of their democratically elected representatives?


You really love Straw Men don't you?

Your distinction between confrontational behavior that is "racist, biggoted and evil" appears to be when its in opposition to your views... Again, the liberal position.... its ok when I do it, but racism and mean spirited when you do it.


There's one giant problem here for you: I'd like to see both Islam and Christianity go away. But I wouldn't burn a Bible to try and show Christians how dumb their religion is either.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Fri Apr 08, 2011 3:10 am

Sarvis wrote:The funny thing is that at 2500 miles away you still might be the one to pay the price for his "speech."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medal_of_Honor

Sarvis wrote:But I wouldn't burn a Bible to try and show Christians how dumb their religion is either.

That's because you don't have the balls.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Ragorn » Fri Apr 08, 2011 5:25 pm

I admittedly did not read this entire thread, but I don't RECALL seeing Kiryan post his outrage over the portrayal of Muslims in Team America: World Police, which was another Trey and Matt production. Sorry I didn't have more time to devote to this thread, can someone just quote for me Kiryan expressing his outrage over the offensive and discriminatory portrayal of Muslims in Trey Stone and Matt Parker's satirical film? He spent enough time wringing his tampon over the mistreatment of Mormons, it would only be natural for me to assume he was equally outraged when Muslims were being targetted, right?

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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Corth » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:36 pm

I think you need to read the thread first.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 08, 2011 7:56 pm

Not really, Rags is right. Kiryan is far more caught up in trying to catch some liberal hypocrisy than anything else. The fact that World Police is a movie that wasn't protested really shows how a satirical play/movie is on a different level than a Koran burning.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:29 pm

lol wringing my tampon, thats a good one, will have to add it to my insult repertoire.

Rags I don't recall being up in arms about the team america movie, but it wasn't because it wasn't offesnive. (I barely watched it a couple years after it was released) its because the standard was free speech was still free speech. The difference today is that liberals are out there in increasing numbers saying conservative speech is hateful and bigotted, but everything they against judeo christian conservatives is ok.

Sarvis is a great example, he's here defending the offensive hateful bigotted speech in south park, but wringing his tampon over the koran burning pastor because people might got killed. Teabaggers is another good example, imagine if we started calling homos fudge packers or butt pirates in the national media. The sexist misogynistic name calling Sarah Palin endures such as being called a whore or a bitch on national tv or by national newscasters/personalities. The liberal "hate fuk" list of conservative women published in a major adult magazine.

If liberals were out there condemning offensive speech when it was directed at Sarah Palin or Mormons or white people, then I wouldn't be bitching right now because it would be consistent. I think most conservatives condemn the actions of the koran burning pastor, but they also condemn offensive media aimed at Catholics, Christians and Mormons. Its absolutely hippocritical for you liberals to rail on the koran burner and argue its just satire, entertainment or art when Jesus is painted on a cross with a boner. its offensive.

Add Elena Kagan argued before the supreme court that there was no problem outlawing speech of no "real value" (crush videos case).

What happened to the America that was willing to die to protect your right to free speech?
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:58 pm

kiryan wrote:lol wringing my tampon, thats a good one, will have to add it to my insult repertoire.

Rags I don't recall being up in arms about the team america movie, but it wasn't because it wasn't offesnive. (I barely watched it a couple years after it was released) its because the standard was free speech was still free speech. The difference today is that liberals are out there in increasing numbers saying conservative speech is hateful and bigotted, but everything they against judeo christian conservatives is ok.

Sarvis is a great example, he's here defending the offensive hateful bigotted speech in south park, but wringing his tampon over the koran burning pastor because people might got killed.


People WERE killed, asshat. Not might, WERE. People were killed over a stupid, half-assed publicity stunt.

The big thing with World Police? No one was offended enough to kill over it.

See the fucking difference yet? No, of course you don't. You think there is some hypocrisy here.

Let's go over this again:

1) Burned Koran -> People Died
2) Lame Jokes about Muslims/Mormons -> No Deaths

What we object to is getting people killed, not speaking.

It's really the same principle as not yelling "fire" in a crowded movie theater when there is no fire. There is NOTHING that was said by burning the Koran that couldn't have been said in a manner that didn't lead to the deaths of other people.

But keep thinking we're the devil. You prove every single day that you're the same as the Muslims you hate so much. You're so wrapped up in hatred, mistrust and fear that I very nearly feel sorry for you. It's not too late to turn from your path, Kiryan.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:27 pm

After I posted, I reread my post and edited the might to got killed. Yes I realize people did in fact die, but your linking of the responsibility to the pastor for their deaths is completely crazy. Its like saying the woman who stumbled drunk in skimpy clothing through a ghetto was responsible for her own rape. straw man be damned, its the same principle. Is he responsible for other extremists murdering other people or are they.

If you think I'm going to turn from a path of strong principles towards a path of relativism where murderous extremists in another country make me cower and rally against the fundamental right of people to express their opinion you're crazy. I'll never go there; I have the courage to fight for my rights, my freedom.

I don't give a shit if you burn a bible, I wouldn't care if an Islamist burned a bible. I would care if you condemn burning the koran and say nothing about burning the bible because people didn't die. Its the same offensive action. Christians shouldn't have to react to offensive action by killing people in order to enjoy the same respect killers get.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:32 pm

kiryan wrote:After I posted, I reread my post and edited the might to got killed. Yes I realize people did in fact die, but your linking of the responsibility to the pastor for their deaths is completely crazy. Its like saying the woman who stumbled drunk in skimpy clothing through a ghetto was responsible for her own rape. straw man be damned, its the same principle. Is he responsible for other extremists murdering other people or are they.


No, it isn't. In fact we just went through that straw man a few posts ago. If you provoke violence, you are partly responsible for it. Morally, if not legally. The people who commit the actual violence are certainly more at fault, but this pastor knew what could happen and did it anyway.

If you think I'm going to turn from a path of strong principles towards a path of relativism where murderous extremists in another country make me cower and rally against the fundamental right of people to express their opinion you're crazy. I'll never go there; I have the courage to fight for my rights, my freedom.


You have the courage to let other people die for your convictions, yes. I consider you a coward. Want to die for your convictions? Go to Iran and burn a Koran in the streets. Then no one else dies for your actions.

I don't give a shit if you burn a bible, I wouldn't care if an Islamist burned a bible. I would care if you condemn burning the koran and say nothing about burning the bible because people didn't die.


Really? Because it's not burning a religious text that I'm concerned about, it's the people dying part. See Kiryan, you actually care more about the book than you do people. That's my problem with you.


Its the same offensive action. Christians shouldn't have to react to offensive action by killing people in order to enjoy the same respect killers get.



I don't respect the killers at all. But I also don't respect Christians who deliberately risk the lives of others.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Ragorn » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:32 am

kiryan wrote:Rags I don't recall being up in arms about the team america movie, but it wasn't because it wasn't offesnive. (I barely watched it a couple years after it was released) its because the standard was free speech was still free speech. The difference today is that liberals are out there in increasing numbers saying conservative speech is hateful and bigotted, but everything they against judeo christian conservatives is ok

I think you need to figure out what your morals are and stick to them. Either offensive speech should be protected, or it shouldn't. You don't wait until "liberals" start condemning religious book burnings and then try to justify them based on what two comedians are doing.

So, yes or no. One word answers:

1) Should burning a religious book be protected under the First Amendment?
2) Should satirical media (movies, TV shows, plays) be protected under the First Amendment?

I answer yes and yes, and thread closed. Not interested in bickering with you about your crazy straw man "liberal agenda" thing.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:49 am

Sarvis wrote:People WERE killed, asshat. Not might, WERE. People were killed over a stupid, half-assed publicity stunt.

People are killed all the time over all sorts of stuff, your rage appears to be manufactured. Made in China.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:27 am

Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Rags I don't recall being up in arms about the team america movie, but it wasn't because it wasn't offesnive. (I barely watched it a couple years after it was released) its because the standard was free speech was still free speech. The difference today is that liberals are out there in increasing numbers saying conservative speech is hateful and bigotted, but everything they against judeo christian conservatives is ok

I think you need to figure out what your morals are and stick to them. Either offensive speech should be protected, or it shouldn't. You don't wait until "liberals" start condemning religious book burnings and then try to justify them based on what two comedians are doing.

So, yes or no. One word answers:

1) Should burning a religious book be protected under the First Amendment?
2) Should satirical media (movies, TV shows, plays) be protected under the First Amendment?

I answer yes and yes, and thread closed. Not interested in bickering with you about your crazy straw man "liberal agenda" thing.


great we agree. Sarvis still doesn't.

Now lets talk about all the democrats and media falling all over themselves to condemn the pastor and nary a word for any bigotry or hatred directed towards christians or conservatives. specifically, lets talk about Obama, clinton and petraeus' statements.

General Petraeus sent a statement out to all news organizations yesterday, urging our government to ban Koran burning.

President Obama has vehemently denounced it, claiming Mr. Jones‘ actions are un-American.

Obama: "The desecration of any holy text, including the Koran, is an act of extreme intolerance and bigotry,"

Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton calls it “disrespectful” and “disgraceful.” She urging the media not to cover the event - in effect, demanding press censorship.

So... are you willing to criticize Obama Clinton for their statements? How about Petraeus... we should ban koran burning? Why is it that Obama will condemn the koran burning... but comes out to support the ground zero mosque which is offensive to a great # of Americans AND STEEPED IN ISLAMIC symbolism? I think the below quote pretty much sums it up.

"For Mr. Jones, however, it was a different matter. The Christian militant was crucified on the cross of public opinion. This double standard reveals the depths to which multicultural progressives are willing to go to accommodate Islam. Slowly but surely, America is being forced to adapt to Muslim sensitivities. Just like in Europe, our secular relativist elites are powerless to confront Islamic cultural aggression. They are not only hypocrites but cowards."


http://hotair.com/archives/2011/04/04/m ... -you-cant/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... hypocrisy/
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 09, 2011 12:39 pm

kiryan wrote:
Ragorn wrote:
kiryan wrote:Rags I don't recall being up in arms about the team america movie, but it wasn't because it wasn't offesnive. (I barely watched it a couple years after it was released) its because the standard was free speech was still free speech. The difference today is that liberals are out there in increasing numbers saying conservative speech is hateful and bigotted, but everything they against judeo christian conservatives is ok

I think you need to figure out what your morals are and stick to them. Either offensive speech should be protected, or it shouldn't. You don't wait until "liberals" start condemning religious book burnings and then try to justify them based on what two comedians are doing.

So, yes or no. One word answers:

1) Should burning a religious book be protected under the First Amendment?
2) Should satirical media (movies, TV shows, plays) be protected under the First Amendment?

I answer yes and yes, and thread closed. Not interested in bickering with you about your crazy straw man "liberal agenda" thing.


great we agree. Sarvis still doesn't.


Again you misunderstand or mischaracterize my position. It is protected free speech. It's just a bad idea. It's cowardly, it's a poor way to get across his message, and other people are unwillingly paying the price for what he said. He has the right to say it, but he shouldn't have.

to condemn the pastor and nary a word for any bigotry or hatred directed towards christians or conservatives. specifically, lets talk about Obama, clinton and petraeus' statements.


No one died because of World Police (which you don't care about) or The Book of Mormon (which, for some reason you do care about.)

How about dealing with your own hypocrisy before trying to find ours?


So... are you willing to criticize Obama Clinton for their statements? How about Petraeus... we should ban koran burning?


No, Petraeus is wrong.

Why is it that Obama will condemn the koran burning... but comes out to support the ground zero mosque which is offensive to a great # of Americans AND STEEPED IN ISLAMIC symbolism? I think the below quote pretty much sums it up.


Because he's a Sekrit Muslim, duh! :roll:

Or maybe because a community center is a step towards peaceful co-existence while a Koran Burning is a step back towards war, intolerance and more death.

In short: You want the same thing the Muslims want. You. Are. The. Same.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Sat Apr 09, 2011 5:54 pm

Don't see Sarvis criticising Obama's attacks on Libya as an ACTUAL step toward war.

Sarvis also doesn't seem to understand that a Koran burning is the action of an individual, not his aggrandized step toward war.

In summary, Sarvis is a play by feel, so called liberal whose bias blinds him to criticise one man's irresponsible free speech but remain silent against another. Representatives of the state while speaking for the state and wielding the power that they wield should never have criticized an American's inalienable right to practice free speech, but liberty is not important to Sarvis. No, like his fellow feel-good 'liberals' he is far more concerned about what terrorists think of us because he appears too frightened, too weak, or too lacking in wisdom to stand first for freedom.

Another point: you never really want to be friends with people who will go to war with you over being insulted.
Chavez Calls Bush the Devil
King of Spain tells Chavez to "Shut Up"
According to your logic, Sarvis, the US is totally going to war with Venezuela, who is then going to declare war on Spain.

Wait, this all happened years ago and no one died? That's because these are civilized nations living in the modern era. So, if one dude bbq'ing a book in his backyard 'offends' anyone to the point where they would attack an entire nation, those people should be allowed to suffer the consequences of doing so and that guy's right to do it again should not only be protected but, in a way cherished.

By the way, it's not at all suspicious that you stick an arm and a limb out to protect Islam while you, on these very boards, criticize Christianity without bounds. Please put your terrible, ugly bias away.


Sarvis wrote:a Koran Burning is a step back towards war, intolerance and more death.

Sarvis wrote:Get it? 500 people to not define millions of people.

So, which is it? Or do ALL of your opinions suddenly change just because someone decides to commit to violence? Can you see the terrible precedence you are setting up?
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If you don’t wanna join him, you got to beat him."
- Kris Kristofferson (To Beat the Devil)
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 10, 2011 5:53 am

So Sarvis are you agreeing its good and within his rights for this guy to burn a koran or are you saying its wrong?

I'll agree its insensitive and antagonistic, I might even go so far as to call it wrong headed, but at the end of the day he MUST have the right to express his opinions and beliefs.

I might agree to some reasonable restrictions like say restrictions on his right to go to a muslim synagogue and burn a koran without a permit, but to burn one at his own church in a mock trial and post a video of it.. must clearly be within his right and to free speech... and we should all support that right as offensive as it may be.
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Re: Muslim vs Mormon and free speech

Postby kiryan » Sun Apr 10, 2011 6:14 am

Apparently the brittish have a different take on the freedom to express ones ideas.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162- ... 03543.html

news comes from Britain that a candidate for political office in Wales was caught on camera burning a Quran as well.
...
In response to the incident, the British government said in a statement: "It is fundamentally offensive to the values of our pluralist and tolerant society. We equally condemn any attempts to create divisions between communities and are committed to ensuring that everyone has the freedom to live their lives free from fear of targeted hostility or harassment on the grounds of a particular characteristic, such as religion."

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