Spell Adjustments Feedback

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Shevarash
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Spell Adjustments Feedback

Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:55 am

Questions and feedback regarding offensive spell changes welcome here. This is the best place to point out spells that don't seem to be working properly, etc etc.
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:04 am

8)

Did mob area damage get downgraded, too? If so, then maybe they won't just sit there and area all the time. They might actually use some form of strategy and use a single target nuke on the cleric or chanter or some other key opponent =9
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:18 am

Yes, the spell changes affect mob spells equally.
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Postby Daz » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:35 am

haste time doubled
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Postby moritheil » Mon Feb 17, 2003 1:57 am

Yayaril wrote:8)

Did mob area damage get downgraded, too? If so, then maybe they won't just sit there and area all the time. They might actually use some form of strategy and use a single target nuke on the cleric or chanter or some other key opponent =9


Prophetic.

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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 17, 2003 3:33 am

I mentioned it in the other thread but its more appropriate for this one.

I am glad that area damage was lowered. 15% might not seem like much but its a good start. I anticipate that eventually it will have to be lowered even further.

Invokers are the big winners from this change. As I said in the other thread, for better or worse, an invoker is more useful in a group today then he was yesterday. I think, Shev, that you are running up against that dillemna i warned about in the past. You cant downgrade them if they do too much damage because they are a one trick pony and all they do is damage. On the other hand, they do so much damage that the mud is unbalanced. I anticipate that the downgrade in area damage will not have a lasting impact as long as we can make up for it by bringing more invokers.

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Invoker Damage

Postby Azenilsee » Mon Feb 17, 2003 5:39 am

Corth wrote: I anticipate that the downgrade in area damage will not have a lasting impact as long as we can make up for it by bringing more invokers.


But how many can you bring in a zone group? The most I've seen is 4 in FP and AP, where areas don't matter as much and spells like sandblast and fell frost are insanely useful.

More than 2 invokers in a group is hassle to manage, especially if all invokers are of the same level. Who does inferno first? Meteorswarms? What does the 3rd invoker do while the first too are switching circles? Most of the time they either cast thunderblast (room stun is not that bad), or do incendiary clouds. Their 9th/10th circle spells are virtually untouched, because if a fight is long or drawn out, you still give priority to the first 2 invokers to cycle out their areas because you don't want to confuse the spell order during the fight due to feedback.

Don't want groups to bring more invokers? Just tweak spell feedback so it does _twice_ as much damage as it does now. Problem solved.

Some comments about changes:
Spells: Targeted spell damage feels like it got a boost, tho fell frost is still anemic, and I think force missile minimum damage got lowered somewhat. Sandblasts are really rockin now, thanks much for this. There are noticeable damage differences between clouds and swarms, so thanks again for this.

Defensive Skills: I can't tank anything nowadays, gets hurt way too easy and I have to agree with Torkur on a another post that this is how the invoker class should be. :)
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Re: Invoker Damage

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:32 am

Azen, that was a brilliant post.
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:11 am

Heh, if you have two invokers in your group then trust me, your not gonna be hurting too bad cause your illusionist or druid is doing 10-15% less damage. They were already doing only maybe a third of the damage that the invoker was doing... probably less. I wasn't necessarily saying that we would be bringing more invokers to zones, I was saying that the 10-15% reduction to areas in non invoker classes isn't going to accomplish all that much.

And yes, invokers are upgraded because the area damage capabilities of the other casting classes were decreased in relation to them. Damage is fungible. It doesn't matter where it comes from. Invokers do a slightly higher percentage of overall group damage output now than before the change. That makes them even more useful to a group then they used to be. That can't really be disputed.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Invoker Damage

Postby Azenilsee » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:38 am

Corth wrote:That makes them even more useful to a group then they used to be. That can't really be disputed.


True, but what's your point? That you don't want _any_ damage from spells? That you want long, drawn out fights with multiple memouts? Even if you theoretically remove invokers from the game, who's your next area damage scapegoat?

Sorry, that's a bit harsh.

With the current change, I cast more spells than I do previously, which is a good thing, because invokers _are_ the primary area damage dealer. No more of those 3 inferno gatehouse. And since the number of invokers you can bring in a group is fairly constant (2-3), you automatically make fights longer.

Nuke all non-invoker area damage to 80%, and in the end is we see groups with 2-3 invokers just taking a longer time to clear a zone, that's all.
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Postby Corth » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:18 am

Anyone that constantly brings 2 or 3 invokers in a group must be bored stiff... yawn nuke everything, rinse and repeat...

yes i am in favor of long fights.. where targetting by melee actually makes a difference and the other classes such as clerics and chanters have to be on top of their game. As it was before this change (havent tested it since), fights that used to be fun, like 2nd gatehouse during jot invasion, had turned into an easy joke. We did that fight without knowing that our sole cleric had lost her connection. We didnt even suffer one death. We just nuked the fuck out of the room so the fight was over almost right after it started. If you find enjoyment in that sort of zoning then you are pretty easily amused.

Click here for an example of a fight where people use their skills over a long period of time as opposed to simply nuking the place clean in 30 seconds.

If you want to continue this discussion bring it to another thread. Sorry shev.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Re: Invoker Damage

Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:25 am

Azenilsee wrote:
Corth wrote:That makes them even more useful to a group then they used to be. That can't really be disputed.


True, but what's your point?


I believe Corth's Not-So-Hidden agenda is to remerge the defensive and offensive spec caster classes into Sorcerers. This, of course, will not happen so long as he represents the minority opinion. In the meanwhile, feel free to get your Sorc fix here :)
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Spell Damage

Postby Azenilsee » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:59 am

Discussion brought over to this thread.
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Postby Galkar » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:49 pm

Was the blind spell downgraded? I'm landing a lot less of them, and it's a rather critical spell for low-mid level exping shaman considering the amount that mobs switch when using a pet tank. I have to blind every mob I fight solo, and most in groups, otherwise it switches immediately and causes major problems!

Just wondering if it's coincidence or if it got downgraded.

BTW, thanks for working so hard to make this mud great :)
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Postby Galkar » Mon Feb 17, 2003 12:54 pm

Just to add what I'm noticing, I usually have 3-4 blinds prayed. I can normally get at least one of those to land at the start of a fight, usually the 2nd or third. This morning I'm noticing that to land one I'm casting blind a lot more, like 8-9 times before it lands. Maybe coincidence and bad luck, don't know. Just wondering :)
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Feb 17, 2003 6:50 pm

Blind wasn't intentionally changed, but I'll take a look anyways..
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Spell Adjustment Feedback

Postby Vuj » Mon Feb 17, 2003 7:32 pm

Uhmm. Jar still stuns by the way.
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Postby rylan » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:22 pm

Blind seems to be landing normally for me. Duration is crappy as normal too :P
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Postby Bipple » Mon Feb 17, 2003 8:39 pm

Not much point changing Jar the Soul if Puppet still stuns as well
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Postby Galkar » Tue Feb 18, 2003 4:24 am

Yeah, blinds fine, i hit a bad luck streak it seems. Anyway, I haven't had jar stun since, weird.
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Tue Feb 18, 2003 6:19 am

Personally, I don't see why Jar the soul or Spirit Wrack were even touched.
Jar hardly ever gets used, but still... If your soul just got hammered on, you're gonna be stuned.
Spirit Wrack actually gave shaman something else to do other then just casting gheal every other round, and ancestral shield every ten seconds.
If stunning is such a bad thing now, get rid of the area effect stuns illusinists have. Its way too powerful to be able to stun a whole room. heh
Also, now that we shaman do have area spells, do we get to watch them now get downgraded to the point of uselessness?
I already don't use soul tempest in zones. Its always vits or silence person.
Ancestral shield I do cast, but more and more finding myself going with two furys and 2 shields. I'm sorry, thats not a whole lot of damage there, heh.

Guess its time to start making triggers to run group statistics and when three or more people are low on hps, cast gheal. I can then do other things with my time.

Sorry for the rant, I'd just rather not see shaman go back to what they were before this wipe. The change to warriors was a good start, just don't go changing the other classes that are fine as is. People were complaining about voker damage being so high that they just roll through zones, yet they arn't changed one bit.. perhaps even upgraded. I know they are all about damage, but still. Its silly at best.
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Postby Maedor » Tue Feb 18, 2003 10:02 pm

Nekler BlazingWolf wrote:Personally, I don't see why Jar the soul or Spirit Wrack were even touched.
Jar hardly ever gets used, but still... If your soul just got hammered on, you're gonna be stuned.
Spirit Wrack actually gave shaman something else to do other then just casting gheal every other round, and ancestral shield every ten seconds.
If stunning is such a bad thing now, get rid of the area effect stuns illusinists have. Its way too powerful to be able to stun a whole room. heh
Also, now that we shaman do have area spells, do we get to watch them now get downgraded to the point of uselessness?
I already don't use soul tempest in zones. Its always vits or silence person.
Ancestral shield I do cast, but more and more finding myself going with two furys and 2 shields. I'm sorry, thats not a whole lot of damage there, heh.

Guess its time to start making triggers to run group statistics and when three or more people are low on hps, cast gheal. I can then do other things with my time.

Sorry for the rant, I'd just rather not see shaman go back to what they were before this wipe. The change to warriors was a good start, just don't go changing the other classes that are fine as is. People were complaining about voker damage being so high that they just roll through zones, yet they arn't changed one bit.. perhaps even upgraded. I know they are all about damage, but still. Its silly at best.


You are right nekler. Please make support clases do normal area dmaage, and downgrade invoker damage. Afterall, invokers spamming inferno is clearly more exciting than a shaman spamming gheal and shield with the occasional fury/spirit wrack and stone while making their spirit rescue peeps ;)

When a shaman area spell does as much damage as an invokers 2nd strongest area spell (cloud)...something is out of whack. I understand people dont like seeing their class downgraded, but sometimes it is just necessary.

Also-from my testing, force missiles seems to have taken quite a hit. So, invokers were changed as well.
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Postby Corth » Wed Feb 19, 2003 12:38 am

Hrmm, force missiles took a hit? I heard otherwise regarding direct target nukes...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Maedor » Wed Feb 19, 2003 1:59 am

I heard otherwise as well...every time i test it though, it seems lower. Jenera also made the same comment;) She said it took all her sands/fm/fells and fists to kill a mephit on smoke *snicker*. Now-I dont think it took THAT big of a hit...
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:16 am

No single target nukes were downgraded..
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 19, 2003 3:28 am

Nm, Shevarash said nuker targets weren't changed before I finished my message I didn't see the difference. :)
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Postby Bilraex » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:03 pm

i know you gods have your own units of measurement
so could you define lowering stun of spirit wrack a "tad"?
it went from lasting on the average 2 rnds to lasting about as long as a sp or charge stun (ie. not even a rnd)
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Postby kanenan » Wed Feb 19, 2003 5:46 pm

one question, cuz i only have one area. Call lightning changed? if it was then it might as well be called "Call fer BackUp!! I CaNT lEt Go oF THHhhhhaaAA CaAa aA A BleE!!!!!!!! @ !!!!!" OUCH!

seriously though.
and yes, i am noting heavy increase in cast times.. is there a different check now for QC>?
stuff.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:19 am

Corth wrote:Heh, if you have two invokers in your group then trust me, your not gonna be hurting too bad cause your illusionist or druid is doing 10-15% less damage. They were already doing only maybe a third of the damage that the invoker was doing... probably less. I wasn't necessarily saying that we would be bringing more invokers to zones, I was saying that the 10-15% reduction to areas in non invoker classes isn't going to accomplish all that much.


Almost none in the case of druids. Doom often doesn't affect mobs in highlevel zones. And with the new cast times on spells like hail and vitality, I'm sorely tempted to not bother casting at all.

Casting: hailstorm ********

Mob is dead, RIP!

Casting: hailstorm **
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Postby Salira » Thu Feb 20, 2003 5:48 am

Does the shaman spell puppet still have a chance of stun? I know stun was removed from jar the soul, but don't see puppet in the listing. I haven't seen this spell stun since the changes.. was the chance of stun just downgraded or was it removed?

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Postby Bilraex » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:32 pm

it still stuns, just not that much anymore, the changes were supposed to have been to stun duration, which now lasts .006 second, but the chance of stun has also decreased alot
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Postby Colje » Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:58 pm

Bilraex wrote:it still stuns, just not that much anymore, the changes were supposed to have been to stun duration, which now lasts .006 second, but the chance of stun has also decreased alot



I've been zoning lots latly, and noticed (before even reading this thread) that the stun is almost gone. I rarly are able to stun a mob now, while before I could at least stun some.

Is stun for shamans THAT unbalance? seriously, and why is only shamans affected by this? I usually dont rant, but this is a major downgrade for shamans. Last night I stopped using offensive, and instead concentrated on heals/vit and silence since my puny offensive wont matter much.

PS.Ok, sorry for complaining so much, especially after all the hard work you guys done already.

/Colje
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Postby old depok » Thu Feb 20, 2003 6:32 pm

I am fine with shaman losing stun if everyone else does as well. Frankly, I think that stuning mobs is a bit too powerful and takes away from the importance of warrior shield punch and bash.
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Postby thanuk » Thu Feb 20, 2003 7:02 pm

old depok wrote:I am fine with shaman losing stun if everyone else does as well. Frankly, I think that stuning mobs is a bit too powerful and takes away from the importance of warrior shield punch and bash.


Honestly i disagree. Stun is a cool effect, but it only stops the mob from casting one time. Whereas silence prevents the mob from casting over extended periods of time, and is much more powerful. I think having casters using stun to stop casting adds alot more to the strategy of the game than just silencing the mob once and eliminating his casting abilities.

Just off the top of my head, what if you couldn't silence mobs for long durations? what if silence functioned much like stun does, if it was only a temporary end to mob casting rather than a permanent one? I liked the idea of randomizing the duration of silence.

I would also then say change holy word, to have the effect of possibly blinding and stunning all mobs not of the same alignment of the cleric. Whereas if a good cleric cast holy word, all evil aligned mobs would be !fail stunned and have a chance to be blinded, as well as taking damage. Neutral aligned mobs would have a chance to be stunned and no chance of being blinded or taking damage, and good aligned mobs would take no effect. Neutral word(heheh) would have a chance to stun both evil and good aligned mobs, and have a chance to blind and do damage but not stun neutral mobs. This would be an upgrade to clerics, in that it gives them something else to cast besides heal and silence. It would shift the balance of power away from neutrality for priest types, who have a distinct advantage of avoiding both holy and unholy words. And it would give us something to fear when fighting against cleric mobs, regardless of their alignment. Thats just an idea, now back to the point.

The point is that stun is a neat trick, but its not really as powerful as everyone makes it out to be. Silence person is a much more powerful spell, if for no other reason than its duration. Stun has a much more strategic application than silence person, and i think it fits in better as part of the game. But then again, im not a shaman, so take it with a grain of salt.
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Postby Salira » Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:04 pm

There is one other advantage to stun at least for low level shamans who are soloing and that is it helps prevent the mob from switching off of the spirit and/or bashing the shaman.

I apologize as I didn't intend to get an arguement going about stun, but was curious if puppet had been changed. I still have yet to see it stun anything...
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Postby Chandigar2 » Sun Feb 23, 2003 4:11 pm

Hrmm.. it seems like currently attacks are checked vs displace before its checked vs a regular hit. I was helping plevel a buddy in SS and the cards were missing me 99% of the time, but when I displace myself it fades in just over 1-2 rounds. I spoke to Shevy before and he confirmed that displace was only supposed to be checked after successful attacks so thought I'd post this.

Log follows, basically illustrating the above.

< P: std > c 'displacement' self
You start chanting...

You complete your spell...
Your form is displaced!


< 682h/682H 104v/127V >
< P: std > c 'phantasmal blades'
You start chanting...
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.

< 682h/682H 105v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.

< 682h/682H 105v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
An experienced guard enters from above.
Casting: phantasmal blades *****

< 682h/682H 105v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: phantasmal blades ***

< 682h/682H 106v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: phantasmal blades **
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.

< 682h/682H 106v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
Casting: phantasmal blades *

< 682h/682H 106v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: excellent P: std >
A mother orc enters from above.
You complete your spell...
(*snip* buncha stuff dies)

< 682h/682H 106v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std > c 'phantasmal blades'

An orc misses you with his punch.
Your image is no longer displaced.
t self ---------------------displacement out!
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc sends you sprawling.
st
An experienced guard misses you with his slash.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
You miss a special guard orc with your crush.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses a kick at your groin, you breathe lighter now.

< 681h/682H 107v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: few scratches E: orc EC: few wounds P: sit >
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
An experienced guard misses you with his slash.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc dodges your futile attack.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.

< 681h/682H 108v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: few scratches E: orc EC: few wounds P: sit > c 'displacement' self
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
Upon being struck, a mirror image of Chandigar shatters into a million particles of light!
st
An experienced guard misses you with his slash.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses a kick at your groin, you breathe lighter now.
You can't do this sitting!

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: sit > No-one by that name here...

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: sit > You clamber to your feet.

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std > You start chanting...

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std > You're busy spellcasting!

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: displacement *

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
Unut group-says 'should i assisst?'

< 682h/682H 110v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: displacement

< 682h/682H 111v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
You complete your spell...
Your form is displaced!


< 682h/682H 111v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std > c 'phantasmal blades'

An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
An experienced guard misses you with his slash.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
You miss a special guard orc with your crush.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.

< 682h/682H 111v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std > You start chanting...
An orc misses you with his punch.

< 682h/682H 111v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: phantasmal blades *****

< 682h/682H 112v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
Casting: phantasmal blades ****

< 682h/682H 112v/127V >
< T: Chandigar TC: excellent E: orc EC: few wounds P: std >
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
Your image is no longer displaced.
t self ---------------------displacement out!
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.
An experienced guard misses you with his slash.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
An orc misses you with his punch.
A special guard orc misses you with his punch.[/b]

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