Camo, Hide Items, and Recent Changes

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Shevarash
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Camo, Hide Items, and Recent Changes

Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 02, 2003 12:58 am

There are a few items in today's MUD news which might seem to target specific players. I assure you all that that is not the case. Ingenuity and resourcefulness are admirable traits in leaders and players in general, and I do not fault anyone for using the tools we the designers of the game have given them to their maximum advantage - barring the abuse of known or obvious bugs.

However, it is my job to adjust player ABILITIES that are unbalanced - whether by upgrading, downgrading, or removing them. These most recent changes are not by any means rash or sudden, but have been mulled over and considered for a very long time. The abilities in question simply grant too much power to any one player, much as artifacts in previous wipes did.

I apologize for ever allowing them in the game in the first place, as this unpleasantness could have been avoided.

On the bright side, these changes ARE relatively minor in the grand scope of things, and will hopefully open the door for more positive changes.

All feedback, comments, and questions are welcome in this thread - provided they are civil and constructive. :)
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Postby Pheten » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:06 am

So uh, what is the point of camo now?=p With spells that illusionists currently posses there really is no use for the spell that I can think of. While I feel that some of these changes were needed no matter which way you turn it downgrades always suck, but guess they just need to be done some times.
-the dismounted rider
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Shevy

Postby dolaf » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:11 am

The downgrading of Illusionists has been something that has been happening for a while now.

Displace- practically useless
Mislead- barely useful
CamoflaUge- yeah great?
Tranq- Nerfed
Nightmare- Nice Lag Time
Doppleganger- useless
MassMorph- Oh Boy!

Playing a class to be a Flux0r/mini-voker doesnt really do it for me or I would have a voker.

These just a few things I noticed. Havent given post that much thought mostly ventage.

-Ari
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:16 am

Camo has the same use it has always had for everyone without sneak items.

You can use it to hide in an emergency.

In case it's not clear, moving while camoflaged has ALWAYS broken hide, except while sneaking. It doesn't give a message, just like Rogue hide.

So the only difference now is that sneaking does not affect Camo.

And Dolaf, I am aware of all of those problems, and they will all be addressed. Growing pains for a relatively new class can be painful, but they are also inevitable in my experience. It'll all get worked out. :)
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:37 am

- You can now apply poison on wielded secondary weapons that are identical to the primary weapon via the "apply <poison> 2.<weaponname> syntax.

Right on. Thank you!!!
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Postby Dlur » Wed Apr 02, 2003 1:58 am

I was going to post something right away, but thought better of it and am going to try to think this through rationally as I can.
I think that everyone is worked up over these changes as they affect everyone on the high end of the game. You probably don't intend to target a small group of players with these changes, but it does indeed do just that. There are a limited number of sneak items in the game, and even fewer that can be used by illusionists. That basically brings it down to two illusionists that could ever use camoflauge to sneak through zones or pull off rogue-like CRs. These two people fought and killed Tiamat, supposedly the end-game of the MUD to recieve this ability. As far as I know the same hide/sneak combo was available to evil races via the HIDE affect items that were also nerfed out of existance. So basically mud-wide you have 4 players, possibly more if you figure in the hide cloak/elvenkind combo who were able to sneak through zones other than illusionists. Of course this doesn't really change anything, other than making those two illusionists and the other people that have sneak items and had sneak cloaks feel put out and a little useless for the time being. All this means is that rogues will be employed to perform the same duties that these sneaking and hiding other classes once did. So in reality nothing has changed, just the people that can do it have.
And sure these abilities should probably never have been granted in the first place, but I think the main point the staff misses out on these days is that while balance is good, and difficulty is good, taking fun away and making everything take longer isn't always good. Actually having something that was fun and did make it possible for people who aren't able to be on the MUD for 18 hours at a time to be able to do some of the harder zones is bad. And that's exactly what this most recent string of changes and various other changes over the course of the wipe have done. We've been built up to have fun things, only to have them taken away. We've been given tools to make zoning faster and more fun and more rewarding, and they've been taken away. And through all of this, little has been done to put any of the fun back into the game, at least from the point of view of the players who have had stuff taken from them in the first place.
I'm sure a few people will quit the game because of these changes. And still more will say they want to quite because of them. And in the past, 7 years or so ago, that would have been no problem at all, but the reality of the situation is that a game like Sojourn3 can no longer afford to loose players to ill feelings or lack of fun, as few players seem to be joining the ranks to replace them. Every negative change of late has been accompanied by a disclaimer stating that this downgrade will make way for new changes to upgrade other things. If downgrading power word blind is what it takes to get the upgrade to empty containers from one to another, then woot sign me right up! But in all honesty I've yet to see any possitives that balance with any of the negatives.
Hey I guess that turned out to be a somewhat cynical post even after I waited for my fire to die down. Oh well.
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Postby torkur » Wed Apr 02, 2003 4:29 am

Well, I was hoping to test out the new feedback (invoker) adjustments, but noone else was around and free....anybody figured them out yet?

Do (invoker) spells with feedback now kill you for sure -unlike half killing you before- or do all areas feedback with each other now or something else? If it's the case they all feedback I do hope that mobs get feedback now to balance it out.

edit: added invoker to specify since those were the changes.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:00 am

The feedback on invoker spells only was increased. It is not instant death.
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Postby Kifle » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:34 am

Updated and fixed the newest weapon proc...i am guessing this is the khanjari. From what i have noticed, nothing has changed. The only thing that seems different is the haste from the rage proc was taken out? not sure if this is what happend...clarification please?
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Postby torkur » Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:40 am

Thank you for the clairification, was wondering exactly what the change meant.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:55 am

Kifle,

You should not notice any difference whatsoever. The dagger was only changed to scale with the power of the user, such that low level rogues would get a lesser effect from it. The high end affect did not change.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:06 pm

Shevarash wrote:Kifle,

The dagger was only changed to scale with the power of the user,


OMG, yet another reason for me to taunt Kifle!
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Postby Nokie » Wed Apr 02, 2003 3:34 pm

Shevarash wrote:Kifle,

You should not notice any difference whatsoever. The dagger was only changed to scale with the power of the user, such that low level rogues would get a lesser effect from it. The high end affect did not change.


Wow that WOULD have been cool to put on a super-low level rogue to level up with. Imagine two of those things on a level 5 rogue. *grin*
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Postby Pheten » Wed Apr 02, 2003 6:50 pm

If downgrading power word blind is what it takes to get the upgrade to empty containers from one to another, then woot sign me right up! But in all honesty I've yet to see any possitives that balance with any of the negatives.

04/02/03 Yet More SCTs
- Overhauled displacement again - should no longer chip on silly stuff and
generally be a bit more effective.
- Fixed up massmorph, it will no longer vanish when players in a different
room move, but is also only castable when you are in the same as the group
leader.
- Even feign death gets some love - it will no longer have any affect unless
every opponent is fooled by the illusion, said opponents have a much higher
chance to be fooled, and the victim will no longer be set to sleeping. Try
it out, if you dare. :)
- PWB un-nerfed. Nuff said, for now.
- Fixed some crash bugs with the last batch of code.


Thanks shev! Most of us are quick to bitch when something doesnt go our way on changes but keep silent when good stuff does come out.
-phet!
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Postby Dlur » Wed Apr 02, 2003 7:33 pm

Yup, you got me. Thanks for making some possitive changes this time around.
Ghimok|Dlur|Emeslan|Ili|Zinse|Teniv

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"Censorship is telling a man he can't eat a steak just because a baby can't chew it." - Mark Twain
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Postby Kifle » Wed Apr 02, 2003 9:27 pm

Thanks shev once again for the proc....i love not dualin etched anymore :). One more question though. I raged yesterday and i didn't get extra attacks for some reason. Not sure if this is intended or when i got a haste-like effect it was random.



Heh, nod nokie, but they don't proc offhand though. or at least one of mine didn't for about 2 hrs i tried.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Apr 03, 2003 2:32 pm

In regards to illusionists no longer being able to sneak/hide as well as before...

I know a couple of rogues that just plain quit about 2 months after illusionists came in. The abilities of sneak and hide are a niche that the rogues had, and now share one of their core abilities with another class?
I personally like the changes to camo, given then nature of the spell, i'd see one of its best uses as "oh shit, the group just spanked, i'm gunna camo here til they regroup so a) i don't die and b) they have a well target"
Anyhow, the idea of a sneak item in general is pretty darn spanky given
how someone with sneak/hide, and add some teleportation/transportation skills to that, can quite easily twink a good number of mobs that previously would have taken small groups. I wouldn't have shed a tear if illusionists OR elementalists were never seen on sojourn. Being new classes are out of balance and affecting the game in the manner they did.
Anyway, carry on, nobody listens to me anyhow....

Delmair/Aedin
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Postby thanuk » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:19 pm

hey shev,

remember us warriors? still wusses. poke poke.


Thanukular.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Apr 07, 2003 9:37 pm

Yes Thanuk, I haven't forgotten. :)

And by the way...the ability to sneak/hide was NEVER a part of the illusionist class at large. Two or three illusionists had the ability, given their possession of certain Tiamat equipment.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Apr 08, 2003 1:11 am

indeed, but sneak could always be given to anyone who could wear elvenkind cloak no? i guess my real argument was then with hide, sans the sneak. but still... an ITEM that gives a character a CLASS ability? might as well give a shield that lets one bash! Or maybe, just maybe, shieldblock! yah!
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Postby loshaenar » Tue Apr 08, 2003 4:55 am

what changes :P

............................. :evil:
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:36 am

Can anyone post the latest news?

I absolutely HATE that the pathetic excuse for a backbone ATDN is that blocks incoming traffic..
/Jegzed - Sorcere Master - Crimson Coalition
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Postby Lenefir » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:45 am

But since elves can't be illusionists *pout* and that elvenkind cloak only can be used by grey elves and !evil orcs, that pretty much rules out an illusionist using it, doesn't it? Besides, several races have some kind of sneak ability, which btw none can be an illusionist. Hmm... Think I lost my point...

Anyway, was the duration of power word blind changed? Can't seem to recall to have to blind those stupid mobs so often just to earn my money :( Enchanters can't kill so fast as an elementalist! *mutter*
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"
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Postby Lazus » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:48 am

Here's the last bit of the news for you people who can't get on. :(

04/07/03 Stupid Coder Tricks du Jour
- Spiffed up scribing - you can now use ACC/OOC/NHC while scribing, you will
see your progress with more detail, and it has been sped up vastly overall.
- New spell: "corpse glamor" - makes a corpse draggable regardless of weight
or flying/levitate status via a powerful illusion. The effects wear off
after a reboot/crash. Illusionist/Necro/Lich 7th circle.
- Tweaked nightmare caster lag - there is now a bonus to save for half lag
depending on the level of the caster.
- A certain beastly mobile is now back in action. And he's not too happy.
04/03/03 Mob Bashing
- Mobiles can again lead off combat with bashing, though at a much reduced
rate. Feedbadk appreciated.
04/03/03 Stop and Smell the Roses
- Some trees and foliage gained something new. Yes, this is vague.
04/02/03 Yet More SCTs
- Overhauled displacement again - should no longer chip on silly stuff and
generally be a bit more effective.
- Fixed up massmorph, it will no longer vanish when players in a different
room move, but is also only castable when you are in the same as the group
leader.
- Even feign death gets some love - it will no longer have any affect unless
every opponent is fooled by the illusion, said opponents have a much higher chance to be fooled, and the victim will no longer be set to sleeping. Try
it out, if you dare. :)
- PWB un-nerfed. Nuff said, for now.
- Fixed some crash bugs with the last batch of code.
04/01/03 April SCTs!
- Invoker feedback adjusted - be warned.
- The HIDE affect no longer functions on objects.
- The camoflage spell is now dispelled upon any kind of movement, regardless of sneak.
- Power Word Blind adjusted - mobs of a certain level will no longer be susceptible
to permenant blinding, but will instead be blinded for an extra duration. That
level is dependant on the caster's level and spec.
- You can now apply poison on wielded secondary weapons that are identical to the primary
weapon via the "apply <poison> 2.<weaponname> syntax.
- Updated the character creation helpfiles.
- Updated and adjusted the most recent weapon proc.
- Revamped a magely weapon proc.
- New command: "empty" empties the contents of one container into another, syntax
"empty <container from> <container to>
- Burning spells will now be removed from players upon exiting Acheron.
- Newbie elfmentalists will now properly load with their newbie items.


Lazus
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Postby Lenefir » Tue Apr 08, 2003 7:48 am

Jegzed wrote:Can anyone post the latest news?

Code: Select all

04/07/03              Stupid Coder Tricks du Jour
  - Spiffed up scribing - you can now use ACC/OOC/NHC while scribing, you will
    see your progress with more detail, and it has been sped up vastly overall.
  - New spell: "corpse glamor" - makes a corpse draggable regardless of weight
    or flying/levitate status via a powerful illusion.  The effects wear off
    after a reboot/crash. Illusionist/Necro/Lich 7th circle.
  - Tweaked nightmare caster lag - there is now a bonus to save for half lag
    depending on the level of the caster.
  - A certain beastly mobile is now back in action.  And he's not too happy.
04/03/03              Mob Bashing
  - Mobiles can again lead off combat with bashing, though at a much reduced
    rate.  Feedbadk appreciated.
04/03/03              Stop and Smell the Roses
  - Some trees and foliage gained something new.  Yes, this is vague.
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"

--Futurama

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