Whats going on with routing? Why Europe is barred from Soj?

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Whats going on with routing? Why Europe is barred from Soj?

Postby Ruagh » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:10 pm

As most of you already knew, most of the European providers from several month ago cannot access Sojourn3.org. I think everybody is interested why lots of players cannot reach an internet site??? That is one of the reasons why evils feel even worse than usual, missing experienced active players like Jegzed, thus being unable to those tiny puny minizonages which they were able to do last year after that massive exodus of elite evils? Maybe admins should write something here on this issue to prevent different silly rumors which are spreading around? Look at this: I can access the website, but I cannot access the main MUD server because of a FIREWALL?????

$ ping www.sojourn3.org
PING www.sojourn3.org (68.100.62.165): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 68.100.62.165: icmp_seq=0 ttl=46 time=148.380 ms
64 bytes from 68.100.62.165: icmp_seq=1 ttl=47 time=144.859 ms
64 bytes from 68.100.62.165: icmp_seq=2 ttl=47 time=144.184 ms

$ ping sojourn3.org
36 bytes from rr-herndon.atdn.net (66.185.140.142): Communication prohibited by filter
Vr HL TOS Len ID Flg off TTL Pro cks Src Dst
4 5 00 5400 9fda 0 0000 34 01 1e20 213.248.5.2 24.30.213.150
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Guest

Access issues

Postby Guest » Wed Apr 30, 2003 8:36 pm

There unfortunately is little to nothing we can do about this problem, short of moving the mud to a much more expensive provider. Considering our bandwidth usage, this is currently not an option.

The location where the mud is now does not apparently allow connections from overseas locations, and we have not been able to correct this. We would ask that people NOT email, call, bug the current provider, since this will likely create more problems than it helps. It is unfortunate that the European players are being affected this way, but there is nothing that we have been able to do to fix it.

Erevan

P.S. We were able to move the bbs to another location, which is why the connections there are working. This was not an option with the mud itself. (edit)
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:02 pm

Considering our bandwidth usage, this is currently not an option. It is unfortunate that the European players are being affected this way, but there is nothing that we have been able to do to fix it.

So, as I understood, it will not be changed in near future? Just asking once again to make the topic absolutely clear.

The location where the mud is now does not apparently allow connections from overseas locations, and we have not been able to correct this.

Heh. Americans are creating an "americans-only" segments of Internet then? A really funny and interesting news to hear.

We would ask that people NOT email, call, bug the current provider, since this will likely create more problems than it helps. It is unfortunate that the European players are being affected this way, but there is nothing that we have been able to do to fix it.

Well, all the possible emails were caused just by silence covering this topic for many months. Since the reasons are pretty evident from Erevan's reply (thanx for posting a reply so quick btw), I think, the number of Emails will be lower now. At least now I can see the reasons lying under that problem, although I still dont understand the reasons of building those "Americans-only" Internet segments, which makes me kinda sad.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:18 pm

The cost of hosting comes out of one person's pocket, so perhaps the game is being hosted on a machine which is being accessed through a more specialized provider? Some businesses which have contacts only within the states do this for protection from overseas issues which cannot be prosecuted through U.S. laws.

We don't have "American-Only" pockets intentionally, and I'm betting that whatever the problem is, it certainly wasn't done with the intention of shutting a good number of players out.
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Apr 30, 2003 9:43 pm

The mud is not an official AOL/TW Service, so they're under very, very little pressure to fix connectivity issues to it.
Mask


So, the MUD port 9999 is not? Fine. What can be done? For example, create mud.sojourn3.org:80, and either put the Mud daemon on THAT port, making it, in fact, "official AOL WWW port 80 Service", or create a portmapping from that port 80 to sojourn3.org:9999. They cant block those incoming "HTTP" connections. Sounds like a plan? This post is also cross-posted at http://www.sojourn3.org:8080/phpBB2/vie ... 292#103292

P.S. Edited to address Ashiwi's reply. IMHO Internet was created as an international distributed network with equal access rights for everybody. And, as an IT security expert, I knew that Russian providers (and especially local backbones like ATDN) do NOT filter their TCP traffic, regardless of the reasons lying under it.
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Guest

Connectivity

Postby Guest » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:08 pm

The reason I say it is not likely to change is because, as posted previously, Miax is limited in what he can do. If you read between the lines, the mud is being hosted as a favor to him at the location where it is at now, but if the boat is rocked in virtually any way, either by him asking for more favors or by people questioning things too much, the connection could be pulled. That is why it has been stated that this is not in any way official with RR/TWC. It also will not ever become in any way official.

Would Miax pay hundreds of dollars a month to have the mud hosted? I do not know. Does anyone here want to find out? I don't think so. That is why I say it is unfortunate. As to any "American only bias", I have no idea why the restrictions are what they are, I just know that Miax has no ability to change them.

Erevan
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Postby Nyv » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:13 pm

Ah well. Sorry if I've made it worse by poking around for a solution, but I claim ignorance. I honestly didn't know we weren't supposed to look for one. Am grateful for having gotten a reply now and will shut up.
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:19 pm

I have no idea why the restrictions are what they are, I just know that Miax has no ability to change them.
Erevan


My question was pretty clear - I have asked about the filtering rules. Does RoadRunner blocks ALL ports from non-USA domains, or it just blocks ALL BUT ALLOWED SERVICES, in which case putting the MUD on port 80 will do the trick. It would be interesting to hear why they implemented those filtering rules recently (since, if Im right, Sojourn has the same channel as it had before the problem) too, but thats just out of pure curiosity.

And yet more info - some providers are suffering from AOL blocking rules, some are not. Thats the matter of routing I suppose. I was able to find an ISP which CAN connect to Sojourn MUD. So, trying different ISPs, or using an USA telnet/TCP proxy or a shell could help. Personally, Id be even glad to have all the triggers running on a fast server on which Id have SSH access. If anybody here can help me with a shell account Id be damn grateful.
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:54 pm

Wait, did you say you tried just using a different ISP and it worked? :?:

I said this on a different thread at one point, so I'd like to know if it worked for anyone? :wink:
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Postby Ruagh » Wed Apr 30, 2003 10:58 pm

Wait, did you say you tried just using a different ISP and it worked?

Yes, Llaa, it DOES works for one junky ISP Ive found. The rest is still unable to connect, but that one is able, thats how I can get into MUD now.
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Postby rylan » Wed Apr 30, 2003 11:18 pm

I have an extra computer on my broadband connection thats jsut pretty much sitting there doing nothing. I wouldn't mind creating a proxy type server either for that. Will have to find out what the deal with att broadband is however in terms of IP changes since the comcast buyout... I wonder if that is part of the problem also, cuz those guys screwed up a lot of stuff.
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 1:26 am

Ive already offered the use of a port forwarding machine sitting on my network at work, we have yet to hear back form the admins on using this is a temp fix.
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Postby Corth » Thu May 01, 2003 6:30 am

Heh.. this is a huge problem. A good part of the mud's playerbase is being locked out.

Apparently Bilraex and Rylan have a way of fixing the problem. I would like to see the admins take them up on their offers, or alternatively, fix the problem themselves. I just can't believe that its taken so much time to even get to this point....

Corth
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Postby Corth » Thu May 01, 2003 6:33 am

Also..

I have to ask.. in case its been overlooked... and I'm not trying to stir up any trouble...

I recall hearing that the Netherlands was banned in order to keep Cherzra from the mud. Is it at all possible that in doing so, a mistake was made that caused an even broader range of people to be excluded from the mud?

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby rylan » Thu May 01, 2003 1:45 pm

Bilraex probably has the best short tern solution, since that would be a static IP forwarding box sitting on a solid network. My cablemodem is "dynamic", although they only change the IP address about once a year.
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Postby Sarell » Thu May 01, 2003 2:09 pm

Since some people asked... In Australia where there are a lot of sojourn players who cannot connect atm, several of the major ISPs cannot connect, and several can. I am one of the lucky ones. If you in oz and really badly addicted to the mud TPG 9.95 unlimited dialup can connect to the mud :9... so can my connection from Griffith University...shrug
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Postby Kossuth » Thu May 01, 2003 3:35 pm

Corth wrote:Is it at all possible that in doing so, a mistake was made that caused an even broader range of people to be excluded from the mud?


Any bans made at the mud level (aka a "siteban") have absolutely zero way of propagating away from the mud box itself, because they are actually handled by mud code on the mud box at the time that the banned site connects. Anyone under a siteban actually gets connected to the mud box and THEN gets a message stating that they're banned.

The problem that Ruagh and others are having is related to a particular AOL-owned router through which a lot of internet traffic flows. (I believe it's the ATDN router in Herndon).

Good question, but simply not possible as the people affected by the ATDN problem aren't even getting to the mud box to be told they're banned or anything like that.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu May 01, 2003 4:00 pm

I blame D2!! :D
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Postby thanuk » Thu May 01, 2003 4:22 pm

Maybe you guys should look into some of the weird international laws being passed concerning internet, file sharing, computer privacy and stuff. Im not saying that this is directly related to the mud, but perhaps it has something to do with certain countries making it illegal to show "hatespeech" and pornography and stuff over the internet with serious reprocussions. Rather than try to censor their subscribers, i wouldnt be suprised if AOL/TW just denied access to certain countries to parts of its network, just to prevent them from bringing legal charges against AOL/TW. Its easier to block the country than to force every single subscriber to take down anything deemed "offensive" by the government of Belgium. Just a thought.
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Postby Salen » Thu May 01, 2003 4:44 pm

I think it is an Executive Order in retaliation for no support on Iraq. I'll let the president know that a few of you are still slipping by.

FYI The reason Australia was banned is, they are a little too close to Austria and G-Dubyah got confused.

In his haste to invade Alaska and steal their oil, he has overlooked some of you in Canada, but he will rectify that as soon as he learns what rectify means.
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Postby Guest » Thu May 01, 2003 8:16 pm

Due to the heat of this issue I'm weighin in with new information and responses to some of the previous posts.

Firts and foremost, the ideas proposed here by Ruagh that the USA is filtering out european traffic is quite nieve - if you know how the Internet works, you would know that suck a blockage is Impossible in practical terms. That line of reasoning sounds more like America-bashing or wishful thinking that the USA would ever intentionally block other countries from mudding or corssing our networks. Thats juts silly. As Rumsfeld said in our government (and I'm sure you'll appreciate the irony), "Those kinds of statements are not helpful".

The problem is this: AOL runs a backbone arm of their company called 'ATDN'. Road Runner uses ATDN as one of our backbone providers, and as such almost all mudders cross over the ATDN links before hitting the mud. Somewhere in the ATDN backbone cloud )which uses BGP - Boarder Gateway Protocol), all but Ping/Traceroute traffic is being mis-routed. Its un-intentionally blocking some IP blocks from reaching our location on their backbone.

I have investigated it, spoken with others in AOL and our company, and have done all I can do to get it fixed. I do not think at this point that it Will be fixed given the other problems going on in the backbone (which I will not list here).

There are in NO WAY any attempts to block users from Asia or Europe!! I love all of our users, and very much enjoy the diversity of nationalities we get on the mud - its a matter of Pride for Sojourn that we have players from all over the world. In fact, our international audience is one of the things I brag about when I talk about Sojourn to others! So as you can see, its completely opposite to the propoganda posted elsewhere in this thread.

Why has the issue persisited so long? Because I honestly did not think this issue would continue on so long. Frankly, its the first dead-end I've run into with the backbone - and as a result I'm now looking into moving the site to a more expensive for-pay site that will cost me 500-1000 a month given how much bandwidth the mud consumes. Obviously thats something I want to avoid as I make No money from the mud to offset those high bandwidth costs - its a time-consuming effort on my part. Additionally, I have frankly been too busy - Im working almost 80 hours of week right now due to things at work - so my time to work on this has been limited.

Okay so what can I do if I'm blocked? There is only one option we have for you guys until we move to a new site: We need a good reflector in Europe/Asia that is authorized for use with Sojourn. By authorized I mean that I need to work out a deal and understanding with the reflector site - as hundreds of users could be coming through it, and they would all look like Multiplayers. :| Ive seen a post about one in this forum, if the developer/maintainers of any reflectors in Europe/Asia want to contact me directly about becoming our reflector, Email me at kkortright@va.rr.com.

The idea of using port 80 (or some other port) is a fine suggestion, but unfortunately the Corporate firewalls DO block everything but 9999 for my mud box, so another port is out of the question until we move to a new site (at which time a new port shouldn't be needed).

I'll continue to try and get the problem fixed on the AOL side, and will work with any interested reflector administrators and continue my hunt for an economical site to host the mud in the future.

I do apologize to all our blocked users - it's frustrating for us too! We'll keep at it.

Kris (Miax)
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 8:29 pm

Ive already talked with Losh and set up a basic port forwarding proxy which he used today. We have also been looking into other methods of doing osme kind of auth or ident stuff to prevent the multiplay that could happen.

Im all about getting these peeps to get back on the mud, so If Miax or any one else has suggestions or knows of other tools we can use just let me know and i'll get it implemented.
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Postby Kurtok » Thu May 01, 2003 10:29 pm

This proxy machine you have. Why not just create user accounts on it for the people to directly login to from Europe. Then, they can login from the proxy machine to the MUD via telnet or whatever. Isn't that what the ident[] check is for when you login to the MUD? to check to see who the user is that's making the connection?
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Postby Ruagh » Thu May 01, 2003 10:30 pm

Ive already talked with Losh and set up a basic port forwarding proxy which he used today.


Hey Bilraex! Its a nice solution, but Id also ask - what OS does that box uses? Is it possible to work not with a port forwarding but instead with a SHELL ACCOUNT on that box? In this case, it'd be even better, because, if I recall correctly, there was a way to divide different users (identd ?) connecting from the same IP.

Personally, I would be happy if my knowledge of networking will help others to get into the Faerun once again. So, if I can remotely help with anything - you have my hand.

Somewhere in the ATDN backbone cloud )which uses BGP - Boarder Gateway Protocol), all but Ping/Traceroute traffic is being mis-routed


Correct me, if Im wrong, please... but IP routing in this case is based on the routing table and on the DESTINATION IP. And it is the SAME router which drops some packets and passes others. Soooo..... it isnt about routing, its rather about FILTERING... And about

Firts and foremost, the ideas proposed here by Ruagh that the USA is filtering out european traffic is quite nieve - if you know how the Internet works, you would know that suck a blockage is Impossible in practical terms. That line of reasoning sounds more like America-bashing or wishful thinking that the USA would ever intentionally block other countries from mudding or corssing our networks.


I dont wanna bash America in any way with bare words, thats definitely not my style. Im just too curious, and now my curiosity asks whats going on with AOL security rules, and why they are filtering IP traffic in such a WEIRD WAY? Yes, I do know how Internet works, Miax - please, dont take it personally, I dont want to offend anybody - and I DO KNOW that it IS possible to filter the IP traffic, thats what filtering routers are for. And I am still very curious about the reasons lying under it - not to bash America once more, but to understand whats going on, is this AOL/TW covering their ass, or something else I dont know about. To me, it may sound quite reasonable (although I highly disagree with that) if theyre filtering traffic for their customers blocking "ALL BUT ALLOWED" services to pertially prevent hacking inside their network, for example.

Also, since Miax has touched Rumsfeld - I think it will be interesting to add that during Gulf War 1 (ie Desert Storm) Iraq militaly network was mostly inoperable because of the viruses which were intentionally planted on some of the key locations, and that embargo was including high-performance routers.
Last edited by Ruagh on Thu May 01, 2003 11:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby rylan » Thu May 01, 2003 10:39 pm

Hey Miax, do you mind saying how much bandwidth the mud uses per month? I don't think anyone here really has any idea, since we think of stuff like streaming video as high bandwidth and ascii as low. I'd guess its pretty substantial from the cost you'd expect to see if you had to move the mud to another site.
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 11:04 pm

Shell accts would solve the auth problem, but wont help with those who are using zmud or other gui mud client, could have shell accts and run cli mud form there sure.

And nothing personal but nasty things can be done through having shell access, even chroot jailing the shell, there are ways around it.

Socks has ways of auth while being a proxy, but havent figured out any tricks for using zmud with socks.

If peeps are using a clli mud client, could do is safely with ssh, on Linux piece of cake, winblows havent a clue.
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Postby Ruagh » Thu May 01, 2003 11:15 pm

Well, if you're afraid of allowing shell accounts on your box (which is kinda understandable), it is always possible to set the TinTin as a shell :wink: Like I said, for the people with slow connection (ie, for example, me with my current junky dialup :oops: ), having triggers/gags/subs on a fast server would be more than awesome.
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Postby Bilraex » Thu May 01, 2003 11:28 pm

Or if there are any iptables guru's out there, im sure there has to be some chains that can be set up to allow port forwarding while keeping the src ip the same
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Postby Eilorn » Fri May 02, 2003 1:22 am

Sample bandwidth calculations:

server to mud clients:
(1000 words/minute) * (1minute/60seconds) * (6 bytes/word) *
160 connections = 16000 bytes/second

mud clients to server:
(90 words/minute) * (1minute/60seconds) * (6 bytes/word) *
160 connections = 1440 bytes/second

1000 words is a lot to read in a minute, and 90 words is a lot to
type in a minute. There are battles where there would probably be
1000 words/minute sustained for a length of time, but, I'd guess that,
on average, 1000 words/minute is on the high side. I don't see why
this couldn't simply be hosted on a home dsl account with static
addressing. Unless someone can see something wrong with my math.
With dynamic DNS, this could even be hosted on a dynamic ip address.

Eilorn.
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Postby Eilorn » Fri May 02, 2003 1:26 am

Bilraex wrote:Or if there are any iptables guru's out there, im sure there has to be some chains that can be set up to allow port forwarding while keeping the src ip the same


I'm sure that someone will correct me, if I'm wrong, but, if you changed the src ip on an outgoing packet, return packets would attempt to go to that ip, not be routed back through you.

Eilorn.
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Postby Eilorn » Fri May 02, 2003 1:32 am

Bilraex wrote:Shell accts would solve the auth problem, but wont help with those who are using zmud or other gui mud client, could have shell accts and run cli mud form there sure.


Gui clients could put a login script in their login sequence to login to the shell account, then telnet to the mud. I think the ansi codes would come through fine. Logging out of the mud would return you to the shell prompt.

Eilorn.
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Postby Guest » Sat May 03, 2003 6:44 am

I vaguely recall there being settings in TCP/IP regarding either the length of time or the number of hops for a packet before it is discarded or ignored. If someone remembers this, please feel free to post the info.

What you may be seeing is an issue having to do with adding extra hops or time to a packet that is already on the verge of hitting this limit, and thus it then gets dumped.

The amount of time/number of hops from an american provider are quite likely to be much lower.
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Postby Xolan » Sun May 04, 2003 3:34 am

Can't connect to Soj3? AOL problems? Well hey! I know just what to do!

Overseas?

Email me at xolan@attbi.com and I'll tell you what needs to be done.

This is a one on one basis!


I got the hookup
Guest

Postby Guest » Tue May 06, 2003 2:43 pm

First, its not all of europe. Denmark seems to connect just fine.
Second, just get a proxy! Find one in america, there are hundreds of fast ones, you can even get an anonymous one if you still get blocked if the server checks for linkback.
How to use one? well explorer is simple. Its in View, Internet Options, connections, proxies. depending on what version you have. just type in the proxy address and click ok.
Use google to find proxies and learn how to use them if you are very confused.

For those who dont know what a proxy is: Simply a server which pretends to be your server, and which will give out its IP adress to the pages you visit instead of your own. This is primarily done to increase the speed of some connections, and can also be used to give greater privacy and security to those needing it.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue May 06, 2003 5:57 pm

grorrakk wrote:First, its not all of europe. Denmark seems to connect just fine.
Second, just get a proxy! Find one in america, there are hundreds of fast ones, you can even get an anonymous one if you still get blocked if the server checks for linkback.
How to use one? well explorer is simple. Its in View, Internet Options, connections, proxies. depending on what version you have. just type in the proxy address and click ok.
Use google to find proxies and learn how to use them if you are very confused.

For those who dont know what a proxy is: Simply a server which pretends to be your server, and which will give out its IP adress to the pages you visit instead of your own. This is primarily done to increase the speed of some connections, and can also be used to give greater privacy and security to those needing it.


Two notes. 1st: Denmark is hit, Some ISP's can't get to sojourn. And since I wish to keep my ISP then i'm unable to connect.

2nd: I tried to read about proxies etc. Not only does it seem pretty hard to figure out. But it also seem illigal in some way, and totally underground like. I couldn't really find a proxy that would work. (Or a sock4 whatever that is. But if anyone know what to do then please tell).

I can't really see the potential threat with 50 on from 1 IP, that can happen from a university etc. And from the few things I have been reading then if people want to cheat then they can use multiple proxies too.

br
/Disoputlip
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Postby moritheil » Fri May 09, 2003 5:40 pm

Hrm.... this is a pretty big issue imho, and probably responsible for ebils being more devastated than usual.

Good luck finding a fix. It's kind of odd how trillions of dollars are wasted anually in the US on trivial things, and we can't find money to run Soj3 on its own server with its own dedicated line. Ah, well, c'est la guerre.
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Postby moritheil » Fri May 09, 2003 5:45 pm

PS: not trying to sound like a jackass, just in a hurry :P I do understand that since faerun is copyrighted stuff, miax can't ask for donations. I just think the situation overall is lamentable.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
Dirjornso
Sojourner
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2001 5:01 am

bandwidth

Postby Dirjornso » Mon May 12, 2003 8:23 am

you just forgot 1 step on your bandwidth figures
it has to go out to 75-200 players

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