One more "No More Zoning For Evils". Ideas inside.

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Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Fri May 16, 2003 8:06 pm

Ashiwi wrote:And it devolves into the typical "Mine's Bigger" post!


I nominate Ashiwi to be judge!
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Fri May 16, 2003 8:47 pm

Ruagh wrote:Well, Tanji, thank you for the tip, but Ive understood that already long time ago. Thats why my zoning SVS outfit is like ac-100 svb-25 svs-35 PFF, and with it I have... ummm... maybe like 200-300 hp clouds? They arent that bad, actually, as the ones in those posts. I can survive them quite well, and if the healers arent asleep, we can handle that. And now look at the skills which are Strength and Agility-based, and add the trollish advantage in STR and AGI. Go beat that now.


At high skill levels, the stat factor behind skills doesn't really do much. But really, it's your tanking ability, not your melee you're talking about. Melee normally refers to hitting stuff, not being hit back.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Fri May 16, 2003 8:52 pm

Llaaldara wrote:Can I slap you around in, and outside of, the arena some more Nukkie? :D

-LL


Oh Baby. You can slap me around wherever you want, as long as you promise to forget about the little anagram game slip i had on ooc that time:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat May 17, 2003 12:36 am

Treladian wrote:At high skill levels, the stat factor behind skills doesn't really do much. But really, it's your tanking ability, not your melee you're talking about. Melee normally refers to hitting stuff, not being hit back.


Oh that's perfectly all right as well.

Since weapon dice and plusses are universally bad, the number of attacks per round is too low, mob hps are very high and the max hitdam you can put on a set is something like 30/50 (compared to the 40/65 Donuktanam's anti on "another" MUD has atm), no one I know relies on melee to kill anything. ;)
Thus spake Shevarash: "Invokers are not going to be removed"

Gura: ..btw, being a dick is my god given right as an evil.
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Postby Vahok » Sat May 17, 2003 4:13 am

My cat's breath smells like cat food...
Meatshield
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Postby Ruagh » Sat May 17, 2003 8:45 am

And it devolves into the typical "Mine's Bigger" post!
Absolutely agree, Ashiwi :cry: This thread became an offtopic flamewar, although I was asking hell knows how much times to keep it withing boundaries set by 1st article of this post.

I had a list of 12 positive suggestions for established evilrace players
Llaa, finally Ive heard about some possibly constructive ideas! Can you please post them here? Dont just flame, propose something before all the evils will have move to that "another" MUD, which I dont like as much as Toril, but which is still way much better than all the rest.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
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Postby Yarash » Sun May 18, 2003 6:07 am

Ruagh wrote:In Waterdeep, people are shouting about the trades all the time, while in Dobluth Kuor they aren’t.

This is something I'd like to see changed. Evilrace players who have been around awhile have their own ways of buying, selling and trading equipment (even going as far as sneaking into WD to post on the FS board there). The people who need these services the most are new players (all types). The reason people don't shout in DK is that it is considered inappropriate among the evil playerbase (for whatever reason).

I think it would be an improvement if:
1) DK got its own FS board.
2) People would announce when they have items for sale.

Commerce is a good thing.

- Mike
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Postby Nilan » Sun May 18, 2003 9:28 am

Its the lack of shouts FS Ft WTB etc...that i thank god for every night. eeewww how WD shouts drove me batty. This is one difference im thrilled to death dont exist in DK and evil hometowns.

Commerce like that in WD etc....IMHO is the root of greed and hoardiness. Some guy standing at the ftn with 5 of every item in his packs screaming at the top of his lungs just makes me wanna give my poison dagger some action :) Why on earth would someone hoard 5 of every item just to sell em at fountain for plats, when no doubt his group mates prolly needed that item or two? Less greed and hoardiness exists on the evil side and i am betting that this lack of "Commerce" has alot to do with it.

Im glad that dont exist in evil lands. Its definitely something i dont miss one bit.

Nilan
Ruagh
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Postby Ruagh » Sun May 18, 2003 9:59 am

1) DK got its own FS board.
2) People would announce when they have items for sale.
Commerce is a good thing.

Why on earth would someone hoard 5 of every item just to sell em at fountain for plats, when no doubt his group mates prolly needed that item or two? Less greed and hoardiness exists on the evil side and i am betting that this lack of "Commerce" has alot to do with it.

Well, I wanted to write that too, but stabby was quicker. Damned dextrous thieves :) Yes, thats exactly what I think, he kinda reads my own thoughts. "Commerce" is a root of hoarding and greed, and Im very happy not to see it in DK, and I was doing my best to struggle against "commerce" all the time. Yup, I dont have as much shineys like I could have if I traded - but guess what? Ive lost a fully equipped pcorpse of a lev.50 warrior and was about to quit because I was really pissed - and I was re-equipped by the surrounding people almost as well as I used to - in a few days! That is a much better way of living, I think. Handdowns rule, guys.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Sun May 18, 2003 10:42 am

you evils are soooo good it makes me sick! *duck*
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun May 18, 2003 2:51 pm

::cough::

Has it occurred to you that if people didn't have that extra gear "sitting in their bags" then they wouldn't have had it to give you when you lost all your equipment?

I have no doubt that the same thing would happen for me if I were ever unfortunate enough to lose all my gear. It's not which side you're on, and the whole "evils are better than thou" attitude isn't going to increase their numbers. It's the people you play with.

What Thanuk is trying to point out in his oh-so-loveable manner is that since the goodie side is more numerous, it's much easier to to pick and choose your associates so that you don't have to deal with what you might consider negative influences, but since evil population is much less and some of the negative influences were popular leaders, evil players have to take what they can get in the form of groups. I've never had to deal with being screamed at in gsay for my incompetence in a group, no matter what stupid stunt I've pulled, and the pervading mentality of "just having to deal with it as part of being able to zone" isn't something I've ever had to tolerate. On the flipside, we've all seen plenty of instances where evil players were subjected to this kind of behavior and quite a few of the high level evils took the stance that people should just deal with it. I wouldn't want to "just deal with it" in a game where I come to have fun with my friends.

There are good people and bad people on both sides, it's just unfortunate that with the smaller pbase on the evil side, the attitude that a player just has to suck it up and deal with it in order to be a good player has probably done more to detract from your numbers than to add to the "prestige" of being a hardcore evil.
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Postby Ruagh » Sun May 18, 2003 7:33 pm

Has it occurred to you that if people didn't have that extra gear "sitting in their bags" then they wouldn't have had it to give you when you lost all your equipment?
Thats right. But my point was that those people havent kept that for themselves to trade for something they needed, instead they gave that to me. And yes, you're right in your post... but still, thats not the root of the problem. The exact root is small pbase, and the question is has to be done to increase that evil pbase. There is no need to point again and again on the consequences of that problem.
Va'esse deireadh aep eigean... Something is ending...
Kribble
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Postby Kribble » Sun May 18, 2003 8:26 pm

My thoughts, and a few suggestions.

1) Have a 'make an evil' day, where all goodies are invited to make evils & get some basic tutorial/help/training from the established evils. (Already suggested, great idea)

2) Let's run some goodie vs. evil roleplaying adventures.
(both have to run comparable zones and bring a piece back)
(both have to work together somehow to defeat a common threat)
(Arena olympics anyone?)

3) This 'we're hard on our newbies' thing is ridiculous, if that's the way you feel, you deserve to have your pbase suffer. This isn't the latest video game, I view every newb who logs in here as a treasure, someone we should nurture, welcome, and invite to share in our chosen hobby. I'm genuinely suprised at how short the 'who helper' list is. I try to take as much time/energy as possible to help new players out, but if you want a model, watch Lilithelle... I've never seen anyone (though I know you're out there) as invested and willing to help new players out, she's amazing.

4) I'm interested to know, does anyone miss the ability to be outcast as a goodie and group with evils? I always thought that was a really cool feature...

5) Quit viewing playing an evil as if you have to be some war veteran to take on the hardcore challenges of life as an evil... pshaw, whatever. If players and gods alike presented playing an evil as a much less intimidating endeavor (sp?), and more of a fun new experience I would have tried it years before I did.

6) Regardless of the specifics, suggestions, altercations, etc... golf clap to Ruagh for trying to boost the pbase, for the sake of the evils and the sake of the players who don't know how cool/fun it can be to try.

Kribble Zinbitz.
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Postby Yayaril » Sun May 18, 2003 10:22 pm

Nilan wrote:Some guy standing at the ftn with 5 of every item in his packs screaming at the top of his lungs just makes me wanna give my poison dagger some action :)


It's about time it got some action, too.
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sigh

Postby Teyaha » Sun Jun 29, 2003 2:05 am

i was the first evil on that black list nearly right from the get go.

i remember seeing how the hand-me-down just made the good 'ol boys network stronger instead of truly filtering out the gear. we had hand me downs on toril on the good side too t his is not an exclusively evil system - but nor is it unbiased or fair. the only TRUE unbiased and fair system is bidding only on items for that class that you are there with. when you play a big game like daoc or EQ they dont allow handmedowns, nor random bidding. it's for your class only. why? keeps the bs arguments to a minimum.

but no one here wants to do that. you want your gear, and gear for your alts. lets face it - this game hasnt had a new player in ages. all those new names that i see now are just people's alts. i keep thinking that if i stay away long enough and come back the game will accept me fresh - but it's still the same hate-tells i get from the minute i log on.

i'm not a bad person. actually i'm a helluva player as was drabyl. but because we didnt agree with your looting system and said as such we got blacklisted early on. drabyl hasnt been back since and never will be, and he was a kanthas boy!!

but you guys just keep posturing and debating the evil side. the fact is that you can meet some interesting people on the goodie side. i have yet to meet anyone that can match the friendships i developed with alvathair and okina while on toril ever since. i've been tempted to go back goodie, but i just cant start over again.

the abuse is real, the good 'ol boyz network is real, and shame on you for denying it.

i was told early on so many times 'dont say you used to be a goodie they wont talk to you again' by turg and krolb from day 1 of meeting t hem after wipe. tell me how even allowing such things to happen is right?
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Postby Salen » Sun Jun 29, 2003 5:31 am

My 2 cents.
At this point, the only thing that is going to change the situation is for something very drastic to happen.

Truthfully, other than an entire Good guild moving to evil characters, I don't see a revival of Evils happening. There is way too much 'history' to overcome for individuals to decide to go play an evilrace character and have literally no one else to group with.

I'm one of those people who saw way too much crap take place in Evilville (over the shoulder of RL buddies), and even though 1 of them is gone permanently, at least 2 more of them are/could be still around running the show, thus I doubt I would ever play an evil. If an entire Good guild moved down, I would consider it because then I wouldn't ave to rely on the powers that be in the old evils structure to bestow upon me hand-me-downs.

Like I said to start, something drastic.
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Postby Ruagh2 » Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:24 pm

At this point, the only thing that is going to change the situation is for something very drastic to happen.


Yea. Im tired of being a "Prophet of Doom", but Id like to hear some responce from the immortals about current evil vs good situation. Ive heard alot of bitching that "itemX should be 1 ac less and 2 hp more to better balance the game", but people are missing the global things. Hell, evils cannot zone, and they are unable to for a long time. Evils have a hard time gathering a group to zone. The fun is doing a big zone, and being an evil is not as fun as it used to be. We're under the same avalanche effect Ive mentioned above, but now it is even worse when almost all the evils have left Sojourn for another MUDs.

Okay, enough whinning. What could be done?
1. Consider re-implementing old outcast code to allow more flexible grouping. Ive heard around that alot of people would like to became outcasts.
2. Create a true roleplay MUD without artifical restrictions on evil-good groupping (If you want an example, you knew what Im talking about)
3. Resolve damned fog/globe issue, we cant do crap even with present ppl just because of the damned daylight.
4. Look above and think once more about the ideas from which this (now flame) thread has started.

Sincerely, Lil Ru the bitching troll.
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should evil and goodie group for pleveling and zoning

Postby Dark Slayer » Sun Jun 29, 2003 1:59 pm

:cry: As you all can see there is no more evil in this mud. Because lack of leader many newbie can't leveling and zoning anymore. As a warrior what can i do alone without my fellow evil. Everyday i'm online for what? talking.talking and wandering without anything to do. That's why no more newbie in evil. No prospect for zoning orleveling. Than i'm suggesting that evil and goodie can join in group or guild.In this way we can do tougher zone. Think about it my fellow sojourners
Guest

evils vs goodies

Postby Guest » Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:52 pm

Obviously, there are dicks on both sides. Just look at all the people who started flaming eachother or trashing 'the-other-side' in response to the original post on this thread. Which was full of ideas at least. Creative, positive, possible solutions to the well outlined and real problem.

So all of you who are so damn sure about what you just posted about the other guys... well I just wont say it. BBS rules, and that whole thing about sinking down as low or lower than your adversaries.

Anyhow, the point. Theres a problem, its obvious, and because there is a roughly equal percentage of bad players/attituteds on both sides of the game, it only seems clear that there are other issues on the line rather than how who splits what, or who met the most dicks, or whatever.

I think there were some good suggestions. The ones I feel would make the most difference:

1.Remove the 'playing evils sucks' message, if not done already.
2.Tweek squids. Get them on par with druids gatewise. Make them more playeable (see icecillams psi post).
3.Retweak bashcode, especially with the new headbutt attack versus large mobs. Why do dwarves get the same ability to bash large mobs as ogres? They shouldnt. Balance doesn't mean everybody is the same. I think a good balance, considering the present player situation, would be if only the largest of barbarians could bash like trolls. And nothing should be able to knock em down like ogres. Giving some evil races the ability to maybe bash mobs that nobody else can would balance the hardships for evils and create more variety in the game, which makes people play more characters. Plus it just makes physical sense. Dwarves would fly under the kneecaps of giants. Its stupidly whimsical that they can, and I think its too bad if Sojourn is going to pervert its otherwise sacred laws of physics and common sense which define it from the other muds. Kind of reminds me of the hollywoodization of LOTR. Boy that dwarf was funny! What was his name??
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Wed Aug 06, 2003 11:58 pm

Selias wrote:Or have him play a duergar and find his own way out of the UD? C'mon now guys. Evils are the harder races for the more experienced players. If you really want to up your numbers, then I feel that you should lobby for hometown changes, maybe remove ultravision or something.


I was helped when I was newer..

I did use a Duergar and found my way around. Mostly by asking.

Maybe I was lucky, but I was helped by others. Oh well.
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Postby Gyrx » Thu Aug 07, 2003 1:40 am

There's only one thing that I feel I can offer to this thread:

I'm trying.
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Postby yud » Thu Aug 07, 2003 11:39 am

I second that. Gyrx is trying. In fact, over the past few nights, there has been a really decent turnout of evils, and we have zoned for many hours.

Thanks for getting the ball rolling Gyrx, and allowing this nobody troll to tag along.

Yud

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