lastly...

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
agreiver
Sojourner
Posts: 65
Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Red Bank, NJ USA

Postby agreiver » Wed Apr 04, 2001 11:43 am

I'd just like to say thanks to Ruhr for giving us his opinion. If you don't agree with him, who cares. He's testing the mud and your not, so I think he knows a little more than most of us.

Secondly I would just like to comment that Sojourn was always meant to be one of the hardest muds around, so these changes seem to have a point to me. The point being making the mud difficult, and the point being, "Let it take awile to get to 50". Once the mud opens for good, they obviously don't want 50 level 50 characters running around by the end of the second month. These changes seem to ensure that only those players who are serious about the mud will ever reach level 50. That was a problem with Sojourn 2, and now with Duris, everyone is level 50. It wasn't that way on Sojourn 1.

I am all for it being harder.
Ruhr
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ruhr » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:07 pm

agreiver

Thanks man. I'm probably more ignorant about the new MUD than you give me credit for, but that's part of the reason for this thread, to discuss what is going on.

If things are fine as Johan says, this gives me some hope b/c he is a pretty smart guy.

I don't mean to be rude, or abrasive, it's just the way I am.

Sorry to offend.

What I see that's good: the staff. I can see a lot of talent there, and I don't want my critiques coming off as sounding ungrateful for all the work they've done--b/c this is far and away the best MUD in history.

All I want to see is this thing work. And I'm trying to help in the only way I know how, by deconstructing what I've seen and contrasting it with the past.

Chances are I'll play even if things aren't improved just for the company of some good buddies on here.

And yes, I agree, things should be hard, not a power-level fest, but there is a balance there also. People like sarvis who has played for 3 years and has never seen what this MUD really has to offer; jot, tiamat, the amazing quests, man that makes me grateful that I did invest the time to get to that stage--it wasn't all about power-mudding it was about incredible teamwork with a crew of outstanding people; Riders of Twilight--and all the people I grouped with/followed before; trolan, corth, dizahk, etc.

I would love it if those good old days could come back, and I must admit, part of my dissapointment from when toril pwiped was losing this amazing world--and it wasn't so much b/c of the code but b/c of the people...

-R


[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-04-2001).]
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 04, 2001 12:47 pm

*shrug*

I don't think Ruhr's mudding philosophy is conducive to the style of play found on Sojourn. Exp is the means to an end? Conan is a roleplaying archetype? Paladins are a solo class? 3rd edition rules should be implemented?

I'm sorry Ruhr, I don't know what to tell you. Your vision of how the mud should work is so opposite how the game is right now, maybe you'd be happier elsewhere. There's plenty of muds where you can solo to 50 in a month. I suggest Duris or Basternae. There are also some AD&D muds out there that utilize the rules you're familiar with, but I don't know of any offhand.

I don't think refuting Ruhr's points is going to accomplish anything on this board.

In my D&D game, a 7th level barbarian is getting two attacks per round, at +12 and +7 to hit, and doing 1d12+8 damage per attack. He took down 12 vampire spawns by himself. If that's the kind of game you're looking for, I'm sure there's a mud out there that can acommodate you.

- Ragorn
Sarvis
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Location: Buffalo, NY, USA
Contact:

Postby Sarvis » Wed Apr 04, 2001 1:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by agreiver:
<B>I'd just like to say thanks to Ruhr for giving us his opinion. If you don't agree with him, who cares. He's testing the mud and your not, so I think he knows a little more than most of us.

I am all for it being harder.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err... Agreiver... you do know it's open alpha right? We're all testing the MUD... and some, like Ragorn, were testing it before me and Ruhr even got a chance because he was one of the pre-alpha testers. Well... ok... I'm not so much testing as I'm hanging out with friends and slaying those nasty podwives... but still. Image

Sarvis
Mplor
Sojourner
Posts: 455
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Phoenix

Postby Mplor » Wed Apr 04, 2001 3:46 pm

I think we as players need to avoid using this board to chase ppl away from Soj3. There will always be people who do not like Soj3's gameplay, and some of them will abrasive, cutting down both the MUD and players who like the status quo. Malcontents may not appear to contribute much beyond irritation, but just like in real-life society, we are often defined as much by what we are not as by what we are. If nobody ever disagreed with what the majority feels is correct, we'd eventually fall into creative paralysis, if only because we never have to defend our way. At least Ruhr's motives are honest: he wants the game to be better. His complaints have been answered to our satisfaction, if not to his, so let's move on. It's far too early to be telling people that Soj3 is not for them. Right now, it's for everyone, and everyone's input is helpful.
Uthgar
Staff Member - Coder
Posts: 141
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Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA

Postby Uthgar » Wed Apr 04, 2001 5:08 pm

I want to reiterate that all the issues Ruhr is raising are ones we are examining right now. We have not made any decisions, but we are looking at and have possible changes to:

the roller
warrior tanking ability
invoker (over)power

Ruhr, you have already seen evidence of our willingness to examine changes when we lowered the damage taken from being bashed, at YOUR suggestion.

As for the other classes, druids and shamans were changed to make their impossibly difficult leveling not so impossible anymore. Their new spells don't hold a candle to what an invoker can do, and they will be using their utility spells in zones more than their damage spells.

The single biggest change to this MUD is in the staff. We are listening to you and to each other, and examining EVERYTHING to make sure it makes sense and is what we want. Ruhr, trust us that we will do everything we can to correct the balance issues you raise, BUT

The days of globe/stone/vit, go in and silence, and watch all the hitters beat the mobs to death are OVER. You played a warrior, so you may not have realized how much that world sucked for non-hitters. Warriors will never again be the ultimate lords over the game. Their role has diminished, but they will still very much be needed. My personal goal is for every class to be needed to form well-rounded groups.

Uthgar
Faedril
Sojourner
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI

Postby Faedril » Wed Apr 04, 2001 8:55 pm

Ok, here is the second opinion =).
I've now played a grey elf warrior through Toril (50), Sojourn2(45+), and Sojourn 3 (16).

As far as stats go, the only big change is making hitroll dexterity based. This has been lurking out there through both Toril and Sojourn two. Its finally been implemented and makes a whole heck of alot of sense. In the past, an elf with 100 str received 3 4 as i recall and a barb received 4 6 hit/dam. Now it is 7 4 and ? 6. Not a terribly huge difference. I recall many high level warriors wielding twilights with about 15 hitroll anyway... (I was never one of them mind you Image ) You've just got to make up what... 3 hitroll?

AC. Elves have always had higher ac. It made a huge difference at low levels before. It seems to make a little less of a difference at low levels now. The real question will be its affect on the High Level mobs. High AC is also not terribly difficult to come by. A mid level barb/dwarf/whatever will be able to hit it with armor and a bark and some mid level gear. At that point hit/dam isn't terribly available anyway.

Skills - almost meaningless in Toril aside from bash and rescue, Very Useful in Sojourn2, Essential in Sojourn3. I don't care what race you play, its the block, dodge, parry, and riposte skills which will save your skin. AC will help, but it seems that skills are where its at. This lets you live longer and help more. It also aligns with the Idea that PC Tanks will once again be the norm as they were before the huge spirits and elementals took over.

Shieldpunch is a very effective skill, but for rescues, you need to assign rescuers. You never had all the barbs bashing or punching against a switching mob unless they were !fail.

If you are feeling bad about hitting things, I've noticed with Faedril I hit at approximately 40-60% of the time with my 8 hitroll against higher level mobs. This appears to be some sort of mob/ac/hitroll balance issue for low level mobs and players.

If you want to see the skill affects on this, switch from your slashing weapon to a bludgeon. You will see your hitting rate drop significantly until that skill catches up with your slashing skill.

If you look at your practice it plainly states all pertinant warrior skills are strength based. What this exactly means in the long run, I'd be interested to know, but on the surface that drops a skills advantage in the laps of the barbarians.

All in all, Barbs may have gotten a minor downgrade for hitroll, but its not the end of the world. Grey Elfs and Gnomes won't be replacing them as the "Super Warrior" any time soon. Anyone who thinks so will probably be sadly mistaken.

So, go play the class and race that makes you happy. If you want the Super Indestructable Solo Warrior Who Owns the Game... Go Play Diablo II =)
Ruhr
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ruhr » Wed Apr 04, 2001 9:45 pm

Uthgar

OK. Sounds good to me. Thanks for taking my critiques seriously.

-R
agreiver
Sojourner
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Joined: Sun Feb 11, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Red Bank, NJ USA

Postby agreiver » Thu Apr 05, 2001 7:25 pm

The point I was trying to make in defending Ruhr is you should just let him post what he thinks is true. It seemed to me like you guys were almost bashing him because you didn't agree with him. We aren't all going to agree, but lets discuss different points without arguing or bashing. Cmon, I'm a paladin, I'm supposed to make peace. Image
Guest

Postby Guest » Fri Apr 06, 2001 1:57 am

Allow me to conclude this long, heated, and very good thread.

The concerns over Warrior melee balance versus Caster spell balance are being intensly looked by over a dozen very talented people. An incredible amount of work has gone into developing a combat system that is coded clean, very scalable, and loaded with control knobs and statistical tracking systems. This gives the staff an unprecidented ability to see what's really happening in combat, for both mobs and players. Below is a sample output of how much information we can see about a any given mob or pc during battle:


THAC0 Combat stats for player: Thruar

Enemy AC Modifier : 0 %Impact: 0% Enemy AC: 10
Enemy Agility Modifier: 0 %Impact: 0% Enemy Agility: 110
Weapon Skill Modifier : 1 %Impact: 33% PC Skill Rating: 0.
Level Modifier : 0 %Impact: 0% Level of Target: 19
Class Modifier : 1 %Impact: 33%
Hitoll Bonus Modifier : 1 %Impact: 33% Dexterity Modifier : 0 %Impact: 0%
Blind Enemy Bonus : 0 %Impact: 0% Blind Malus : 0 %Impact: 0%
Prot from Evil Malus : 0 %Impact: 0% Prot from Good Malus : 0 %Impact: 0%
Vampric Touch Bonus : 0 %Impact: 0% Prot from Undead : 0 %Impact: 0%
Blurred Malus : 0 %Impact: 0% ResurrectMalus : 0 %Impact: 0%
Paladin Bonus To Hit : 0 %Impact: 0% Heavy Load Modifier : 0 %Impact: 0%

Total Hitroll Points : 3.00 (Bonuses: 3 Maluses: 0).
Bounded Hitroll (1-95) : 44
Last Attack Dice Roll : 39 (HIT)
No. of Attacks Logged : 1

Number of Hits : 736 Hit percentage : 62%
Number of Misses : 394 Miss percentage : 33%
Number of Crits : 27 Crit percentage : 2%
Number of Fumbles: 25 Fumble percentage: 2%

There is a control knob for every one of those modifiers, bonuses, and maluses, and each can be turned up or down, affecting each modifier individually. There are also such knobs for areas spell damage, mob Thac0 and Skills, and many many more will be added in the coming weeks. You can literally imagine the staff standing in a sound mixing booth behind the Your stage with a master control panel, turning things up or down until we reach the best balance we're capable of. This is the first time I've ever worked on a mud that had such control over how the game actually runs.

See the Stats page on the BBS, how it tracks players, leveling, and deaths over time? Pretty neat tool. What you wont see is that same tool applied to the above modifiers, wathcing how each class modifier progresses over time, adjusting each one as necessary.

My point? Give the game time to evolve. It's not perfect yet, and thats why we call it Alpha. What we do have are the people and tools to reach balance. What we need is your help in testing the mud and posting Constructive feedback about what you find. Don't be upset by what you see, instead act intelligently with your feedback to affect the change you all think is necessary. You have a direct channel to the staff, as I post every constructive feedback I get to the staff news server, who all read and comment on it.

So stop moaning and start thinking and working to perfecting the world that many of us are going to live in for a very long time. Alpha is the time to do it, as afterwards the staff will be tired and will very likely want to Play the game they have worked 7 months to perfect.

This was a very informative thread. These are the kinds that change the world.

Miax

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