statistics for warriors:
It's obvious that you need at least good in all four primary war stats (str,dex,agil,con) now or you're going to be hurting.
Dex now = hitroll, whereas previously strength was the sole attribute that determined one's base hit/damroll.
Strength seems to determine (in conjunction with con) the size of your warrior, which is of huge importance.
Agility is vastly important now due to AC's (purported) significance in combat now.
Con, as stated previously, is the main determinant not only in hitpoints (notches) but in the size of your warrior (in conjunction with strength).
SO, where does this leave us? In the toril days, str & con were king; now however, all four vie for the top spot on your rolling checklist.
Take for example the warrior I rolled only yesterday. While he had mighty str, agi, and Heroic con, he is not at the maxium hitpoints/size for his race--not only that, his hit/dam is 1/6 due to "mundane" dexterity.
This is a character that doesn't deserve to be played on two points; 1) not the max hitpoints (= many more deaths down the road); and 2) a base hitroll of 1 which will hurt eq selections down the road (e.g. having to stack more +hit items than +dam items in those valuable NON_AC slots that will be so few and far between...
On toril this character (despite the lower hitpoints) would have been playable. Why? Because:
1) Dex only affected fumbles and the chance for critical hits (not base hitroll);
2) agility meant nothing b/c AC meant nothing;
3) warriors could go all HP/Hit/Dam without having to worry about tedious shields and high AC/low hit/dam gear.
SO now you have a situation that unless one has at least all goods in the first four pertinent slots, the class becomes an unpleasant struggle (in conjunction with the tedium of endless XPXPXPX--when all you wanted to do was play a couple zones after your mind-numbing day as a wage slave, thank you very much.)
SO, i know suggestions are futile, but I'll give it a shot.
What's the quick and easy solution? Either raise the stat rollers minium stat threshold, or give 5 bonuses after init roll instead of 3.
The long and hard way: constantly tweak this little thing and that little thing to rigg up a patchwork system that isn't uniform or unified.
lastly...
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">This is a character that doesn't deserve to be played on two points;
1) not the max hitpoints (= many more deaths down the road); and
2) a base hitroll of 1 which will hurt eq selections down the road (e.g. having to stack more +hit items than +dam items in those valuable NON_AC slots that will be so few and far between...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Strength eq is extremely common, most people have 2x as much str eq as they need sometimes, tho I'm not convinced that anything besides con affects hps
2) With one of those +22dex rings the dex issue is negligible since a base dex of 78 would be upped to 100, is one slot too much to give?
If anything, I'd hope that this will lead to more equipment variety as people trade off certain attributes for others
1) not the max hitpoints (= many more deaths down the road); and
2) a base hitroll of 1 which will hurt eq selections down the road (e.g. having to stack more +hit items than +dam items in those valuable NON_AC slots that will be so few and far between...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
1) Strength eq is extremely common, most people have 2x as much str eq as they need sometimes, tho I'm not convinced that anything besides con affects hps
2) With one of those +22dex rings the dex issue is negligible since a base dex of 78 would be upped to 100, is one slot too much to give?
If anything, I'd hope that this will lead to more equipment variety as people trade off certain attributes for others
I think you guys might be missing what he is saying. Basically, they have decided that
warriors now require 4 skills to be "uber" which is fine in and of itself, however they didn't redo the way skills are made to compensate for it. So now you have classes
that are weaker against mobs. It isn't
a big deal really, but it is still a valid
thing to point out.
warriors now require 4 skills to be "uber" which is fine in and of itself, however they didn't redo the way skills are made to compensate for it. So now you have classes
that are weaker against mobs. It isn't
a big deal really, but it is still a valid
thing to point out.
I think everyone is in the same boat. Lets say u have a caster. Well you can say str and con dont matter but casters no need decent str so they can cary stuff (like rafts) they need high con so they can survive area spells. Now you still have to put stats into your base area int. If your a cleric type you need high wis and if your a conjie you need high charisma (or is it power now). Warriors in the past only had to realy worry about 2 slots true. Now they have to worry about 4, not a huge deal since all the other classes have the same problem. It just means you have to make some choices do you want to play a hitter/basher or a tank or a little of both.do you go with high hit in the beginning and gather dam gear or tough it out with low hit and get hit gear later.
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
You're right... lets make it like it used to be... so that in order to be a viable warrior you had to be a barbarian. Screw those damned whiny elves! And go back to practicing dwarf tossing on those puny halfling fighters! (Not on the dwarves tho, they can fight back!)
Ok, the new stats thing is made in order to even things out between _all_ the races... it's called balance. And I like... I like it a lot.
Now right now it may not be perfectly balanced, that's why this is alpha. They will be tweaking things here and there... giving barbies more hp, making elves dodge better for the next few weaks until an elf and a barbie can both tank equally well. I'll bet everything I own that they aren't going to make it so that you have to be a barbarian with perfect stats to be a tank.
Roll a barbie with perfect str and con and he can take massive damage. He won't hit often, but when he does it will do a lot more damage.
Roll an elf with high dex and agi and he won't get hit. He'll hit a lot, but he'll never do more than scratch his enemies.
At least that's the basic idea... give them some time to balance out the actual numbers a bit... 'k?
Sarvis
Ok, the new stats thing is made in order to even things out between _all_ the races... it's called balance. And I like... I like it a lot.
Now right now it may not be perfectly balanced, that's why this is alpha. They will be tweaking things here and there... giving barbies more hp, making elves dodge better for the next few weaks until an elf and a barbie can both tank equally well. I'll bet everything I own that they aren't going to make it so that you have to be a barbarian with perfect stats to be a tank.
Roll a barbie with perfect str and con and he can take massive damage. He won't hit often, but when he does it will do a lot more damage.
Roll an elf with high dex and agi and he won't get hit. He'll hit a lot, but he'll never do more than scratch his enemies.
At least that's the basic idea... give them some time to balance out the actual numbers a bit... 'k?
Sarvis
-
Azralek Silvermist
- Sojourner
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Baltimore,MD
- Contact:
I find this new system to be a good one
now players must make compromises
just like we did in tabletop ad&d with the damroll cap anyway there is now more space for stat eq. and gives people reason to wear that stuff . and it is possible to get 4 goods for a warrior. the 5th one for us rangers is the killer.
all comments are Imho
Azralek SilverMist
now players must make compromises
just like we did in tabletop ad&d with the damroll cap anyway there is now more space for stat eq. and gives people reason to wear that stuff . and it is possible to get 4 goods for a warrior. the 5th one for us rangers is the killer.
all comments are Imho
Azralek SilverMist
Having been playing for a couple weeks now, I first thought that our low stats were a pain in the ass...but over time my mind on the matter has changed. Instead of melee equip being only useful for the hit/dam bonus and/or hitpoints, now AC and stat bonuses are just as important if not more important.
This makes a whole lot more sense to me, and gives us all a whole lot more options to personalize our character, be it a warrior, rogue, paladin, or what have you. Thumbs up from me!
Mp
This makes a whole lot more sense to me, and gives us all a whole lot more options to personalize our character, be it a warrior, rogue, paladin, or what have you. Thumbs up from me!
Mp
1st: Warriors won't have the luxury of wearing +22 dex shiny crimson rings b/c they'll have to wear amy/tit rings for the +HPs.
2nd: <I>So now you have classes
that are weaker against mobs. It isn't
a big deal really, but it is still a valid
thing to point out.</I>
Thank you Calladore for actually reading my post, but to me it is a "big deal" as I'll be repeatedly dying and walking from that hell that is known as Griffon's Nest.
3rd: what the gods are saying.. is they dont want super-uber chars wearing nothing but hit/dam... There are solutions and you dont need to be a master in all 4... mighty con, mighty str, good dex, good agi.. would be a decent char.. so.. it also depends on the race...
Galok even with perfect scores in str/dex/agil/con there's no way a warrior could get away with wearing all hit dam. You'd have to wear A LOT of +AC gear for one, then A LOT of +HP gear as well since no totem spirits or mentals now. How many slots does that leave for actual +hit/dam eq? NOT a hell of a lot. Warriors will never be uber on this MUD, period. I would like a better shot at survival and actually_being_able_to_hit_the_mobiles though. By the way, in several hours of rolling I never got Mighty str/con and good dex/agil. It just wasn't happening, so not sure how you came up with that--personally I'd be satisfied with this, but hey in several hours nothing like this every showed up.
4th: Sarvis what on earth does your rant have to do with barbarians? Barbarians have to suck in order for elven warriors to be on par? Yes I've heard the reports of elven warriors getting much better base stats--hell someone told me yesterday that their elf warrior had mighty in all first four stats. Personally I don't want to be dumbed down to the point where I suck as bad as an elf warrior--hell even if that is the case, barb warriors will still get asked to group more b/c they have more hit points and if they cant hit anything, who cares, just a stupid meat shield anyway, right?
OK fine that's the new philosophy around here, but what about books like Conan? Was he a stupid meat shield? or did he kick everyones' ass? wizards included. Try to RP a Conan style badass on the new system and you look like an idiot--unless you've got doombringer or avernus.
5th: Yayaril red dragon armor is no longer -100 ac, it's -75 ac and it's full body which means no sleeves or pants, which means the rest of your slots will have to go to AC/HP and +hit---not +dam.
6th: <I>Having been playing for a couple weeks now, I first thought that our low stats were a pain in the ass...but over time my mind on the matter has changed. Instead of melee equip being only useful for the hit/dam bonus and/or hitpoints, now AC and stat bonuses are just as important if not more important.
This makes a whole lot more sense to me, and gives us all a whole lot more options to personalize our character, be it a warrior, rogue, paladin, or what have you. Thumbs up from me!</I>
Mplor you play an invoker, you will not be effected by a warriors' inability to hit the broad side of a barn--if anything a weak warrior class elevates the relevance of your class *again* like on sojourn2 *which wasn't fun to play* so what we have is stasis again.
Hell, I want this game to be fun to play. I have invested a lot of time over the years in this MUD and I have a lot of tight friends here--which is why I've tried to contribute on both the BBS with suggestions, and in the alpha as a dataminer. But I'm not going to lie and say it's all peachy keen. I know in the past with this MUD you were blacklisted and banned for expressing your opinion, but now it seems (at least we're told) that these old admin ways will no longer be in effect. SO why not take this oportuntiy to actually alpha test this MUD and come clean on what sucks and what doesn't. Hell, what's more important? kissing the gods ass(es) or giving them honest feedback?
These are my opinions, and all I want to see is Sojourn3 not end up like Sojourn2. So I'll speak my piece now instead of slinking off after april 15th b/c things aren't any fun, it's too hard, blah blah blah.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
2nd: <I>So now you have classes
that are weaker against mobs. It isn't
a big deal really, but it is still a valid
thing to point out.</I>
Thank you Calladore for actually reading my post, but to me it is a "big deal" as I'll be repeatedly dying and walking from that hell that is known as Griffon's Nest.
3rd: what the gods are saying.. is they dont want super-uber chars wearing nothing but hit/dam... There are solutions and you dont need to be a master in all 4... mighty con, mighty str, good dex, good agi.. would be a decent char.. so.. it also depends on the race...
Galok even with perfect scores in str/dex/agil/con there's no way a warrior could get away with wearing all hit dam. You'd have to wear A LOT of +AC gear for one, then A LOT of +HP gear as well since no totem spirits or mentals now. How many slots does that leave for actual +hit/dam eq? NOT a hell of a lot. Warriors will never be uber on this MUD, period. I would like a better shot at survival and actually_being_able_to_hit_the_mobiles though. By the way, in several hours of rolling I never got Mighty str/con and good dex/agil. It just wasn't happening, so not sure how you came up with that--personally I'd be satisfied with this, but hey in several hours nothing like this every showed up.
4th: Sarvis what on earth does your rant have to do with barbarians? Barbarians have to suck in order for elven warriors to be on par? Yes I've heard the reports of elven warriors getting much better base stats--hell someone told me yesterday that their elf warrior had mighty in all first four stats. Personally I don't want to be dumbed down to the point where I suck as bad as an elf warrior--hell even if that is the case, barb warriors will still get asked to group more b/c they have more hit points and if they cant hit anything, who cares, just a stupid meat shield anyway, right?
OK fine that's the new philosophy around here, but what about books like Conan? Was he a stupid meat shield? or did he kick everyones' ass? wizards included. Try to RP a Conan style badass on the new system and you look like an idiot--unless you've got doombringer or avernus.
5th: Yayaril red dragon armor is no longer -100 ac, it's -75 ac and it's full body which means no sleeves or pants, which means the rest of your slots will have to go to AC/HP and +hit---not +dam.
6th: <I>Having been playing for a couple weeks now, I first thought that our low stats were a pain in the ass...but over time my mind on the matter has changed. Instead of melee equip being only useful for the hit/dam bonus and/or hitpoints, now AC and stat bonuses are just as important if not more important.
This makes a whole lot more sense to me, and gives us all a whole lot more options to personalize our character, be it a warrior, rogue, paladin, or what have you. Thumbs up from me!</I>
Mplor you play an invoker, you will not be effected by a warriors' inability to hit the broad side of a barn--if anything a weak warrior class elevates the relevance of your class *again* like on sojourn2 *which wasn't fun to play* so what we have is stasis again.
Hell, I want this game to be fun to play. I have invested a lot of time over the years in this MUD and I have a lot of tight friends here--which is why I've tried to contribute on both the BBS with suggestions, and in the alpha as a dataminer. But I'm not going to lie and say it's all peachy keen. I know in the past with this MUD you were blacklisted and banned for expressing your opinion, but now it seems (at least we're told) that these old admin ways will no longer be in effect. SO why not take this oportuntiy to actually alpha test this MUD and come clean on what sucks and what doesn't. Hell, what's more important? kissing the gods ass(es) or giving them honest feedback?
These are my opinions, and all I want to see is Sojourn3 not end up like Sojourn2. So I'll speak my piece now instead of slinking off after april 15th b/c things aren't any fun, it's too hard, blah blah blah.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
4th: Sarvis what on earth does your rant have to do with barbarians? Barbarians have to suck in order for elven warriors to be on par? Yes I've heard the reports of elven warriors getting much better base stats--hell someone told me yesterday that their elf warrior had mighty in all first four stats. Personallly I don't want to be dumbed down to the point where I suck as bad as an elf warrior--hell even if that is the case, barb warriors will still get asked to group more b/c they have more hit points and if they cant hit anything, who cares, just a stupid meat shield anyway, right?
Err... barbies were dumbed down? Why? Because skills were moved to stats that made sense? Barbies are the same as they always were... big dumb warriors who could block 1 hit and hit back really really hard. But with the new skill changes elves can block 2 or 3 attacks and hit back really really light. Remember in the old days you could only block 1 attack per round anyway, now it's possible to block 2 or 3 isn't it? But how does that change barbies? They still might only be fast enough to block one hit.. but that means they are just as good as they used to be. AC... I've met very very few warriors who didn't have very close to -100 AC, especially once they got barked/armored. Are you griping because you've got to bring a druid or ranger along for barkskin now? I think it's actually good that -100 ac will be _usefull_ for a change, and might help you barbies out instead of just taking hits all the time since you can't depend on parry/dodge if yer slow. Getting good stats doesn't depend on race either, it depends on how long yer willing to sit in the stat roller.. heh. The difference is that high agi (100agi for elf is better than 100agi for barb remember) will allow elves to get hit less. But 100con for barbies will give them a lot more hp, so they can take more hits. It will even the classes out, and bring elves up to the level of barbies as tanks. No one is lowering barbarians to be even with elves... it's going the other way. What does this have to do with barbies? Nothing. It has to do with warrior type classes... it's NOT a race thing, but a class thing.
OK fine that's the new philosophy around here, but what about books like Conan? Was he a stupid meat shield? or did he kick everyones' ass? wizards included. Try to RP a Conan style badass on the new system and you look like an idiot--unless you've got doombringer or avernus.
I'd love to see you solo Tiamat wearing nothing but a loincloth and wielding just a two handed broadsword. I really would.
[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 04-02-2001).]
Err... barbies were dumbed down? Why? Because skills were moved to stats that made sense? Barbies are the same as they always were... big dumb warriors who could block 1 hit and hit back really really hard. But with the new skill changes elves can block 2 or 3 attacks and hit back really really light. Remember in the old days you could only block 1 attack per round anyway, now it's possible to block 2 or 3 isn't it? But how does that change barbies? They still might only be fast enough to block one hit.. but that means they are just as good as they used to be. AC... I've met very very few warriors who didn't have very close to -100 AC, especially once they got barked/armored. Are you griping because you've got to bring a druid or ranger along for barkskin now? I think it's actually good that -100 ac will be _usefull_ for a change, and might help you barbies out instead of just taking hits all the time since you can't depend on parry/dodge if yer slow. Getting good stats doesn't depend on race either, it depends on how long yer willing to sit in the stat roller.. heh. The difference is that high agi (100agi for elf is better than 100agi for barb remember) will allow elves to get hit less. But 100con for barbies will give them a lot more hp, so they can take more hits. It will even the classes out, and bring elves up to the level of barbies as tanks. No one is lowering barbarians to be even with elves... it's going the other way. What does this have to do with barbies? Nothing. It has to do with warrior type classes... it's NOT a race thing, but a class thing.
OK fine that's the new philosophy around here, but what about books like Conan? Was he a stupid meat shield? or did he kick everyones' ass? wizards included. Try to RP a Conan style badass on the new system and you look like an idiot--unless you've got doombringer or avernus.
I'd love to see you solo Tiamat wearing nothing but a loincloth and wielding just a two handed broadsword. I really would.
[This message has been edited by Sarvis (edited 04-02-2001).]
Fact: elven warriors get better stats now.
Fact: barbarian warriors get more HPs.
Fact: it it impossible to get goods in all 4 first stats for a barbarian--cherza said he couldn't get all goods in the first 4 after hours with an autoroller.
IF you want to make all warrior classes equally attractive to group leaders, do away with the differences. Make the HPs the same and the skills the same for all warrior races; don't make it impossible to get good agility/dex in addition to mighty/heroic str/con (for barbarians).
big dumb warriors who could block 1 hit and hit back really really hard
Uhh, they don't hit back "really really hard" anymore. If this doesn't constitute dumbing down what does?
Stoneskin took care of the block one hit/round thing, and it worked well IMHO. Toril barbs were fun to play and kicked ass. BUT they had to go ahead fix something that wasn't broken. What was the reponse of the player base? A lot of them didn't show up for Sojourn2, they didn't play.
You're a ranger anyhow. Are you going to tell me that you're happy with the new rangers? From what I hear, they can't hit shit. And with no perm-haste now, they are pretty pathetic, which is why they put in insanely high damage archery code for sojourn2.
I'd love to see you solo Tiamat wearing nothing but a loincloth and wielding just a two handed broadsword. I really would.
Conan fought dragons (see "Conan the Magnificient" by Robert Jordan), but he did it with wit; luring them into traps, or enlisting the help of a wizard. He also wore armor on more than one occasion (See "Conan the Defender" by Robert Jordan). He wore armor when he became a Mercenary Captian. So therefore your loincloth point is irrelevant.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-02-2001).]
Fact: barbarian warriors get more HPs.
Fact: it it impossible to get goods in all 4 first stats for a barbarian--cherza said he couldn't get all goods in the first 4 after hours with an autoroller.
IF you want to make all warrior classes equally attractive to group leaders, do away with the differences. Make the HPs the same and the skills the same for all warrior races; don't make it impossible to get good agility/dex in addition to mighty/heroic str/con (for barbarians).
big dumb warriors who could block 1 hit and hit back really really hard
Uhh, they don't hit back "really really hard" anymore. If this doesn't constitute dumbing down what does?
Stoneskin took care of the block one hit/round thing, and it worked well IMHO. Toril barbs were fun to play and kicked ass. BUT they had to go ahead fix something that wasn't broken. What was the reponse of the player base? A lot of them didn't show up for Sojourn2, they didn't play.
You're a ranger anyhow. Are you going to tell me that you're happy with the new rangers? From what I hear, they can't hit shit. And with no perm-haste now, they are pretty pathetic, which is why they put in insanely high damage archery code for sojourn2.
I'd love to see you solo Tiamat wearing nothing but a loincloth and wielding just a two handed broadsword. I really would.
Conan fought dragons (see "Conan the Magnificient" by Robert Jordan), but he did it with wit; luring them into traps, or enlisting the help of a wizard. He also wore armor on more than one occasion (See "Conan the Defender" by Robert Jordan). He wore armor when he became a Mercenary Captian. So therefore your loincloth point is irrelevant.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-02-2001).]
To substantiat this point, i just spent 5 minutes rolling an elf warrior and got the following stats:
=============================================
NAME: [****]
SEX: Male
RACE: Grey Elf
CLASS: Warrior
ALIGN: Good
HOMETOWN: Leuthilspar
Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: mundane
Dexterity: good Intelligence: mundane
Agility: mighty Wisdom: fair
Constitution: heroic Charisma: mundane
Above, you see the final stats for the character you have created. These
stats include adjustments for your bonuses.
=============================================
That's mighty str, good dex, mighty agility, heroic con.
In roughtly 3 hours of rolling for different barb warriors, i didn't even get 4 goods in the first four stats.
=============================================
NAME: [****]
SEX: Male
RACE: Grey Elf
CLASS: Warrior
ALIGN: Good
HOMETOWN: Leuthilspar
Your basic stats:
Strength: mighty Power: mundane
Dexterity: good Intelligence: mundane
Agility: mighty Wisdom: fair
Constitution: heroic Charisma: mundane
Above, you see the final stats for the character you have created. These
stats include adjustments for your bonuses.
=============================================
That's mighty str, good dex, mighty agility, heroic con.
In roughtly 3 hours of rolling for different barb warriors, i didn't even get 4 goods in the first four stats.
Whats the problem again? You can't have a barbarian warrior thats awesome at every warrior skill? I just rolled a barb warrior (telnet mind you), got Mighty, Good, Good, Heroic...thats in 10 mins on telnet after bonuses. Of course your going to have a hard time getting awesome stats across the board...isn't that the point? some warriors will have more hps, hit harder, some dodge better..its FAR better then the past, when the only viable warrior was barbarian/dwarf (for goodies). Figure out what stats mean the most to you, and go for it, no matter what you wont have greys agi/dex, nor will grey's have your str/con. If you want one or the other, maybe its time to change races 
Who made up this daylight savings thing..what a rip off,
Belle
Who made up this daylight savings thing..what a rip off,
Belle
There is one important thing you are missing in regards to rolling stats. A barb's str and con are going to be much better than an elf with even heroic str and con. The race is an important factor, you are just looking at the numbers. A barbarian warrior will always have more hitpoints and hit harder than an elf, gnome, halfling, whatever because thier stats racial are better than those races. It is the opposite for dex and agi, the elf scores will always be better than a barb's heroic dex/agi.
One thing you have to agree is that this rolling system makes more sense. There are such things as elven/gnome/halfling/human warriors. Not every warrior in the AD&D warrior is a barbarian, it makes the class one-dimensional. Now instead of just having strength as the prime warrior stat you have a broader base to work from.
Personally, I don't know you at all and you don't know me, but I think you are mad because they changed it for the better of everyone and you think they should change for the one, you. Also, I rolled a dwarf/human cleric and got good rolls for both. It is called luck, not they changed all the code.
Jols
One thing you have to agree is that this rolling system makes more sense. There are such things as elven/gnome/halfling/human warriors. Not every warrior in the AD&D warrior is a barbarian, it makes the class one-dimensional. Now instead of just having strength as the prime warrior stat you have a broader base to work from.
Personally, I don't know you at all and you don't know me, but I think you are mad because they changed it for the better of everyone and you think they should change for the one, you. Also, I rolled a dwarf/human cleric and got good rolls for both. It is called luck, not they changed all the code.
Jols
Ok, here's my take.
I'm in Mplor's boat. Lower stats all around means hitters are going to need stat boosting gear, which was always plentiful but never really desired. More stat gear means more variety in equipment, which is good. There is an item out there that gives you +22 dex. There's one for +13 strength that also gives hit/dam. There's a +9 str/con item. There's a +2dam +9con item. There's a +2hit +9str item. Agility I'm not so sure about, but there's a LOT of high-level gear out there that affects stats as well as hit/dam. Hopefully area writers will continue the trend and add even more hit/dam + stat or hit/dam + hp equipment to their zones.
Where the ultra-leet equipment used to be the stuff that boosted your hit/dam really high, I think now the hella cool items are going to be the hit/dam + stat items.
About elf vs. barb. Barbs and dwarves have more hit points, more strength, and can bash more things. Grey elves have HELLA agility. Not only is their natural AC better, but agility is the stat that determines dodge, which means Elves take less damage off the top than Barbs or Dwarves. They also have great dex, meaning they parry like fiends. With the ability to dodge/parry multiple times in one round, you're going to see Elf and Halfling warriors do some amazing things.
- Ragorn
I'm in Mplor's boat. Lower stats all around means hitters are going to need stat boosting gear, which was always plentiful but never really desired. More stat gear means more variety in equipment, which is good. There is an item out there that gives you +22 dex. There's one for +13 strength that also gives hit/dam. There's a +9 str/con item. There's a +2dam +9con item. There's a +2hit +9str item. Agility I'm not so sure about, but there's a LOT of high-level gear out there that affects stats as well as hit/dam. Hopefully area writers will continue the trend and add even more hit/dam + stat or hit/dam + hp equipment to their zones.
Where the ultra-leet equipment used to be the stuff that boosted your hit/dam really high, I think now the hella cool items are going to be the hit/dam + stat items.
About elf vs. barb. Barbs and dwarves have more hit points, more strength, and can bash more things. Grey elves have HELLA agility. Not only is their natural AC better, but agility is the stat that determines dodge, which means Elves take less damage off the top than Barbs or Dwarves. They also have great dex, meaning they parry like fiends. With the ability to dodge/parry multiple times in one round, you're going to see Elf and Halfling warriors do some amazing things.
- Ragorn
I don't know if this was pointed out already, but think about this. When I fight irl, i'm very very quick. I don't hit very hard, but i hit fast and a lot. This has proven to be an advantage to me. When fighting someone who's very very strong but slow, it can even out, i get hit less, but when i do, it hurts more. He get's hit more, but each hit hurts less. Either way, we both get worn down.
Do you want to hit a lot, or do you want to hit hard. I know you want to hit a lot and hard, but you don't always get what you want do ya
And i'm sure there is a chance to get str, agi, dex, and con all up pretty high, it will just take a ton of rolling, and the other stats will really really suck. Life's a trade off.
G
Do you want to hit a lot, or do you want to hit hard. I know you want to hit a lot and hard, but you don't always get what you want do ya
And i'm sure there is a chance to get str, agi, dex, and con all up pretty high, it will just take a ton of rolling, and the other stats will really really suck. Life's a trade off.G
Ruhr, thanks thanks for writing off my input to selfish class-envy. I play melee too. Perhaps you are mistakenly ascribing to me your own ultra-competitive view of class superiority?
As you say.
Mp
[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 04-02-2001).]
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Try to RP a Conan style badass on the new system and you look like an idiot</font>
As you say.
Mp
[This message has been edited by Mplor (edited 04-02-2001).]
Feh I gotta toss in my 2c's
On one hand I agree with Ruhr.. I think the game was more fun when hitters did the damage and casters supported them. Taking monks out of the game was a mistake. Ruhr is correct on one point, many old players (including myself) left because they did not like the new system.
On the other hand, I like the fact that AC is important now, and that stats are more difficult to come by. Its all relative. If everyone has so-called "bad" stats, then whos to say its bad? Bad means below average, and if bad is average its no longer bad. Lower rolls mean eq with stat modifiers is more important. That gives area writers new options for eq stats.
Corth
On one hand I agree with Ruhr.. I think the game was more fun when hitters did the damage and casters supported them. Taking monks out of the game was a mistake. Ruhr is correct on one point, many old players (including myself) left because they did not like the new system.
On the other hand, I like the fact that AC is important now, and that stats are more difficult to come by. Its all relative. If everyone has so-called "bad" stats, then whos to say its bad? Bad means below average, and if bad is average its no longer bad. Lower rolls mean eq with stat modifiers is more important. That gives area writers new options for eq stats.
Corth
I played Sojourn in it's previous incarnations and I'm going to have to say that Sojourn2 was one of its greatest. I certainly enjoyed Sojourn2 the most, with the introduction of the justice system and the general positive changes made. Sure, things aren't as easy as they were before, and you can't be "uber". Well, that's just one of the challenges. Try to adapt or face extinction.
Yayaril
Yayaril
-
Galok Icewolf
- Sojourner
- Posts: 510
- Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am
A barbs Good con, is better then a elf's heroic con, same with strenght, and vice versa with agi/dex. Ac means more.. but it is not the end all of eq. There will be tanks, there will be hitters. You tell me hitters can't do damage and I'll laugh at you. Skills still matter more then AC. The point here... is there are power gamers that have to have the best they can... and there are those that don't care and will settle for good stats. I dont care who I group with, as long as the game remains fun. Power gamers _can_ get good stats if they want to spend the time. Before posting this I had just rolled up a barb with mighty, good, good, mighty... and I started with 39 hps.
Think back.. those warriors that were 50th level (or near there) in soj 2.. how many of then had -50 ac with hit/dam/hitpoint gear on?... I know I did.. a bark+armor and I was at -100 ac...
P.s. yes red-dragon armor sucks...
Think back.. those warriors that were 50th level (or near there) in soj 2.. how many of then had -50 ac with hit/dam/hitpoint gear on?... I know I did.. a bark+armor and I was at -100 ac...
P.s. yes red-dragon armor sucks...
Ive been playing barbarian Warriors since i started playing Toril about 4 years ago i think. And i have to say, I haven't noticed too big of a difference now except my hitroll sucks cuz i only have average dex.. my other stats are high though.. so.. im doing not too shabby, but im sure im not hitting as often as i was before with same gear/level.. id recommoned they add only 1 thing to raise stats so we can get 1 str/con/dex/agi bonus on each.. or change the roller slightly.. keep in mind though, before you only knew that you had 75+ (fair or better) so.. think about how many times youve had fair or better on all 4 stats.. I don't see any difference in how hard/easy stats are to get between the races either.. except i think they aren't giving us our minimum requirements anymore (atleast 60 str/con or whatever)..so it is taking longer to roll than before... i think the new way they are doing things is great though.. but my barby sure is nothing but a meat shield, and at lower levels that means clerics are gonna use up tons of heals on me while a grey elf will only need a few (hence, perhaps more soloable with heal potions/armor).. so.. i might be switching to Elven Warrior for Sojourn3..
I wrote a loooooong reply earlier but it got lost somewhere after i hit submit. Anyway it basically goes out to ruhr noting that things are not as bad as you think. I personally like the direction soj3 is moving in and it's nothing at all like soj2.. The failure of soj2 in fact was the Ceiling. We were all too powerful and had no where to go but to strive for that single set of top notch eq so that we'd all look the same when we were 'done'. Well now no one's gonna be Conan, but better than having 20 conan's runnin around each solo'ing a zone. These changes in my view, will bring many needed challenges to our class. Think from other perspectives. View the mud as a game not just from the barb warr, Ruhr.
Again, I believe our damage output will not be as great as, but definitely will still be on par with the pure hitters. I dunno what else to say...you brought up too many points I simply do and can not agree with. Bedtime.
Counter-Terrorist (RADIO): Fire in the hole!
Again, I believe our damage output will not be as great as, but definitely will still be on par with the pure hitters. I dunno what else to say...you brought up too many points I simply do and can not agree with. Bedtime.
Counter-Terrorist (RADIO): Fire in the hole!
Ruhr,
Never in my life have I seen such blatent disuse of theoretical and psychological anecdotes in my entire life. Occam's Razor? So the simplest explanation to describe Mplor's reaction is class envy? A person who's got more knowledge than 99% of the MUD, and has successfully leveled both a monk and an invoker to 50? Someone who's actually seen the new code and doesn't just bitch about it based on what they saw at level 1?
Occam's Razor says you're talking out your ass because you perceive a problem that doesn't exist.
You have a gross misunderstanding of how Sojourn works at high levels, and that's apparant in your posting. You are not prone to higher numerical stats based on your race, you are prone to higher stats based on your CLASS. The mud will not roll a stat that doesn't mean your chosen class's prime requisites. Barbarian and Elf warriors are completely identical as far as the roller is concerned.
The +22dex shiny crimson ring is ALSO +2dam, and dex directly influences your parry rate, meaning you'll take less damage. So, unfortunately, your statement about warriors wearing tit rings is dead wrong.
You haven't seen elf vs. barb warriors beyond level 10. You are making groundless statements based on code that doesn't exist anymore.
Who gives a crap about Conan? You can't play a single-character wrecking machine on Sojourn. Period. Stop trying to compare Sojourn to an Arnold movie. Drizzt was a drow ranger who could see during the day, are you gonna whine that drows should have daysight and be allowed to roll rangers?
You make a lot of assertions based on information you don't have. My god, you bitch about everything. Trolls, warriors, rangers, invokers, AC, hit points, Conan the Barbarian. I'll enjoy the silence created by your departure, and hope that you'll actually play the god damn mud before you post 10 pages about problems that don't exist in the future.
</flame>
Sorry everyone.
- Ragorn
Never in my life have I seen such blatent disuse of theoretical and psychological anecdotes in my entire life. Occam's Razor? So the simplest explanation to describe Mplor's reaction is class envy? A person who's got more knowledge than 99% of the MUD, and has successfully leveled both a monk and an invoker to 50? Someone who's actually seen the new code and doesn't just bitch about it based on what they saw at level 1?
Occam's Razor says you're talking out your ass because you perceive a problem that doesn't exist.
You have a gross misunderstanding of how Sojourn works at high levels, and that's apparant in your posting. You are not prone to higher numerical stats based on your race, you are prone to higher stats based on your CLASS. The mud will not roll a stat that doesn't mean your chosen class's prime requisites. Barbarian and Elf warriors are completely identical as far as the roller is concerned.
The +22dex shiny crimson ring is ALSO +2dam, and dex directly influences your parry rate, meaning you'll take less damage. So, unfortunately, your statement about warriors wearing tit rings is dead wrong.
You haven't seen elf vs. barb warriors beyond level 10. You are making groundless statements based on code that doesn't exist anymore.
Who gives a crap about Conan? You can't play a single-character wrecking machine on Sojourn. Period. Stop trying to compare Sojourn to an Arnold movie. Drizzt was a drow ranger who could see during the day, are you gonna whine that drows should have daysight and be allowed to roll rangers?
You make a lot of assertions based on information you don't have. My god, you bitch about everything. Trolls, warriors, rangers, invokers, AC, hit points, Conan the Barbarian. I'll enjoy the silence created by your departure, and hope that you'll actually play the god damn mud before you post 10 pages about problems that don't exist in the future.
</flame>
Sorry everyone.
- Ragorn
RE: Occam´s Razor, it´s perfectly logical that Mplor wouldn´t care about something that didn´t effect him personally (read: barbarian warrior statistics). And I never wrote that class envy was Mplor´s motivation, what I wrote was:
Mplor you play an invoker, you will not be effected by a warriors´ inability to hit the broad side of a barn--if anything a weak warrior class elevates the relevance of your class *again* like on sojourn2 *which wasn´t fun to play* so what we have is stasis again.
Perhaps he interpreted it as such, but nowhere in the preceding paragraph do I implicitly state that he was now in agreement with the stat rolling system b/c he wanted invokers to be better than barbarians; I simply stated a fact.
Nor am I overly impressed with Mr. Mplor. He is a individual, yes he is skilled; as are many. Why then should I get down on my knees and pay homage to a person who never extended friendship to me. I feel indifferent about Mr. Mplor. I neither dislike or like him, he simply exists.
You, on the other hand, I detest, and you will henceforth be added to my permanent gag list. Goodbye.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
Mplor you play an invoker, you will not be effected by a warriors´ inability to hit the broad side of a barn--if anything a weak warrior class elevates the relevance of your class *again* like on sojourn2 *which wasn´t fun to play* so what we have is stasis again.
Perhaps he interpreted it as such, but nowhere in the preceding paragraph do I implicitly state that he was now in agreement with the stat rolling system b/c he wanted invokers to be better than barbarians; I simply stated a fact.
Nor am I overly impressed with Mr. Mplor. He is a individual, yes he is skilled; as are many. Why then should I get down on my knees and pay homage to a person who never extended friendship to me. I feel indifferent about Mr. Mplor. I neither dislike or like him, he simply exists.
You, on the other hand, I detest, and you will henceforth be added to my permanent gag list. Goodbye.
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ruhr:
<B>As far as the relevance of Occam's Razor, (...)
As far as Conan, he is a Roleplaying Archetype, (...)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That should be 'As far as X goes' or 'As for the relevance of', and 'Roleplaying' should be role-playing.
Don't make yourself look stupid - there are people out there with better language skills, and trying to make yourself look intellectual by using big words is rather laughable.
<B>As far as the relevance of Occam's Razor, (...)
As far as Conan, he is a Roleplaying Archetype, (...)
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That should be 'As far as X goes' or 'As for the relevance of', and 'Roleplaying' should be role-playing.
Don't make yourself look stupid - there are people out there with better language skills, and trying to make yourself look intellectual by using big words is rather laughable.
Don't like the big words do you? What was it that moses said on the subject?
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before [trolls], lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Or, as Bardolph would put it:
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my [grammar].
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before [trolls], lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Or, as Bardolph would put it:
Do thou amend thy face, and I'll amend my [grammar].
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
-
Guest
So that you all might have a more informed discussion, I thought I might point out a few things.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ruhr:
<B>Fact: elven warriors get better stats now.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is just patently untrue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Fact: barbarian warriors get more HPs.
Fact: it it impossible to get goods in all 4 first stats for a barbarian--
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Naturally barbies get more hp because they have the con bonus. As for how easy it is to get good for all 4 stats, it is simply not the case that the roller is biased towards one race or another. The racial stat modifier only kicks in -after- the character has been rolled. It has nothing to do with the numbers that you roll in the roller.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Toril barbs were fun to play and kicked ass. BUT they had to go ahead fix something that wasn't broken. What was the reponse of the player base? A lot of them didn't show up for Sojourn2, they didn't play.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If what you mean by "fun to play" is "seriously overpowered compared to any other goodie warrior race", then yes I agree. But the reason people may or may not have shown up for Sojourn2 was not (solely) because barbs or their importance were somehow different from Toril.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
You're a ranger anyhow. Are you going to tell me that you're happy with the new rangers? From what I hear, they can't hit shit. And with no perm-haste now, they are pretty pathetic, which is why they put in insanely high damage archery code for sojourn2.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the reason why we put in archery code was because we thought it would make a really neat addition to the mud and would help differentiate certain hitting classes from others. Yes, there were balance adjustments that needed to be made but in the long run I think we've got it just about right at this point. Perm-haste has been gone for a long, long time. People adjusted - by looking to casters for those spells. And IMO, it has made the game more balanced.
If any of you are longing for a MUD where one class or race is superior to all others, or where you can play an uber character with natural stats maxed out of any class/race, Sojourn3 may not be the right MUD for you. We have made a serious commitment to strike a balance between all races and classes so that, while each has its own skills and or (dis)advantages, no one is so overpowered as compared to another.
The staff recognizes that there are concerns, valid concerns I might add, about the invokers of Sojourn2. These concerns -are- being addressed. There will definitely be a need and a place for both PC tanks and hitters in groups, in addition to invokers and other caster-types.
--D2
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ruhr:
<B>Fact: elven warriors get better stats now.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is just patently untrue.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Fact: barbarian warriors get more HPs.
Fact: it it impossible to get goods in all 4 first stats for a barbarian--
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Naturally barbies get more hp because they have the con bonus. As for how easy it is to get good for all 4 stats, it is simply not the case that the roller is biased towards one race or another. The racial stat modifier only kicks in -after- the character has been rolled. It has nothing to do with the numbers that you roll in the roller.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
Toril barbs were fun to play and kicked ass. BUT they had to go ahead fix something that wasn't broken. What was the reponse of the player base? A lot of them didn't show up for Sojourn2, they didn't play.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If what you mean by "fun to play" is "seriously overpowered compared to any other goodie warrior race", then yes I agree. But the reason people may or may not have shown up for Sojourn2 was not (solely) because barbs or their importance were somehow different from Toril.
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2"><B>
You're a ranger anyhow. Are you going to tell me that you're happy with the new rangers? From what I hear, they can't hit shit. And with no perm-haste now, they are pretty pathetic, which is why they put in insanely high damage archery code for sojourn2.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I thought the reason why we put in archery code was because we thought it would make a really neat addition to the mud and would help differentiate certain hitting classes from others. Yes, there were balance adjustments that needed to be made but in the long run I think we've got it just about right at this point. Perm-haste has been gone for a long, long time. People adjusted - by looking to casters for those spells. And IMO, it has made the game more balanced.
If any of you are longing for a MUD where one class or race is superior to all others, or where you can play an uber character with natural stats maxed out of any class/race, Sojourn3 may not be the right MUD for you. We have made a serious commitment to strike a balance between all races and classes so that, while each has its own skills and or (dis)advantages, no one is so overpowered as compared to another.
The staff recognizes that there are concerns, valid concerns I might add, about the invokers of Sojourn2. These concerns -are- being addressed. There will definitely be a need and a place for both PC tanks and hitters in groups, in addition to invokers and other caster-types.
--D2
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>
Who gives a crap about Conan? You can't play a single-character wrecking machine on Sojourn. Period. Stop trying to compare Sojourn to an Arnold movie. Drizzt was a drow ranger who could see during the day, are you gonna whine that drows should have daysight and be allowed to roll rangers?
- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tempt me. Drizzt's my role-model.
Sarvis
<B>
Who gives a crap about Conan? You can't play a single-character wrecking machine on Sojourn. Period. Stop trying to compare Sojourn to an Arnold movie. Drizzt was a drow ranger who could see during the day, are you gonna whine that drows should have daysight and be allowed to roll rangers?
- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't tempt me. Drizzt's my role-model.
Sarvis
First and foremost, you don't have to like Mplor. But a wise man realizes that it's futile to try to revoke experience. You're dealing with someone who's played longer, done more zones, and had more experience on the MUD than you. Like him or not, you need to respect his opinion.
Secondly, to Jurdex, like D2 said the racial modifiers for stats is factored in after the numeric values are rolled. Barbs don't get a +10 bonus to strength or anything. The roller will, however, automatically reroll values that would put you under the prime requisites for the class you picked. A very welcome and needed change from the old days, when you rolled stats and THEN picked a class based on what you rolled.
Conan is not a role-playing archetype. He's a character in a book and a movie. So is the Terminator. So is the Aliens-brand space marine. None of these are archtypes on Sojourn. Just because a character exists in another fantasy setting doesn't mean it has to apply to Sojourn. I'm sorry you want to slay dragons by yourself. I'm sure you can find another MUD where that concept is more feasible. Try Medevia or Realms of Chaos.
And don't get into a grammar argument, because I WILL win that one :P
- Ragorn
Secondly, to Jurdex, like D2 said the racial modifiers for stats is factored in after the numeric values are rolled. Barbs don't get a +10 bonus to strength or anything. The roller will, however, automatically reroll values that would put you under the prime requisites for the class you picked. A very welcome and needed change from the old days, when you rolled stats and THEN picked a class based on what you rolled.
Conan is not a role-playing archetype. He's a character in a book and a movie. So is the Terminator. So is the Aliens-brand space marine. None of these are archtypes on Sojourn. Just because a character exists in another fantasy setting doesn't mean it has to apply to Sojourn. I'm sorry you want to slay dragons by yourself. I'm sure you can find another MUD where that concept is more feasible. Try Medevia or Realms of Chaos.
And don't get into a grammar argument, because I WILL win that one :P
- Ragorn
D2: the whole point of this thread is playabilty.
What toril had was great zones + great game play.
What sojourn2 had was great zones + bad game play.
I'd like to see sojourn3 get both right. And right now I don't see that happening. I have not enjoyed the game play in this alpha thus far.
But I will come and check it out on April 15th, or whatever the opening day happens to be, just like I gave sojourn2 a chance.
- R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
What toril had was great zones + great game play.
What sojourn2 had was great zones + bad game play.
I'd like to see sojourn3 get both right. And right now I don't see that happening. I have not enjoyed the game play in this alpha thus far.
But I will come and check it out on April 15th, or whatever the opening day happens to be, just like I gave sojourn2 a chance.
- R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).]
Well you can't please everyone....
Your not enjoying game play so far?
Why because you couldn't roll a perfect Conanesque warrior?
And Ruhr if your going to make a statement like 'sojourn2 had bad game play', provide folks some info to discuss, and perhaps change. Just saying something like that without examples doesn't help your cause. So far sojourn3 has drawn staggering numbers and for the most part I haven't heard anything but praise about changes. What do you base the 'playablity' of sojourn3 on...your a lowbie still, exps come slow on sojourn...maybe another mud is your
speed.
Belle
[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 04-03-2001).]
Your not enjoying game play so far?
Why because you couldn't roll a perfect Conanesque warrior?
And Ruhr if your going to make a statement like 'sojourn2 had bad game play', provide folks some info to discuss, and perhaps change. Just saying something like that without examples doesn't help your cause. So far sojourn3 has drawn staggering numbers and for the most part I haven't heard anything but praise about changes. What do you base the 'playablity' of sojourn3 on...your a lowbie still, exps come slow on sojourn...maybe another mud is your
speed.
Belle
[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 04-03-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ruhr:
[b]D2: the whole point of this thread is playabilty.
What toril had was great zones + great game play.
What sojourn2 had was great zones + bad game play.
I'd like to see sojourn3 get both right. And right now I don't see that happening. I have not enjoyed the game play in this alpha thus far.
But I will come and check it out on April 15th, or whatever the opening day happens to be, just like I gave sojourn2 a chance.
- R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).][/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The whole point of this thread is Barbarian playability. You don't seem to care that other race warriors were unplayable in Toril, and might now be playable in Sojourn3.
Sojourn2's problem wasn't general playability. It was the fact that you had to be either a barbarian warrior, a cleric, a conjie or a voker in order to be useful. You seem to want a step backwards so that only barbarian warriors are useful again. The rest of us want everyone to be able to play... this <u>increases</u> playability.
I don't think I've ever played a MUD where being level 1 was fun. I'm not having that much fun yet either except for seeing my old friends... but once I get level 10 I'll be ecstatic with dual wield! Also I really like the shillelagh spell... biggest downside right now is that my favorite newbie zone isn't in. (Ant Farm.)
Things will probably be a bit better when beta opens. Remember that they are still in the balancing process. By beta barbarian's will be on par with everyone else... but no, they won't be soloing tiamat in a loincloth. Wits or no wits. *grin Vigis* I suspect the latter.
Sarvis
[b]D2: the whole point of this thread is playabilty.
What toril had was great zones + great game play.
What sojourn2 had was great zones + bad game play.
I'd like to see sojourn3 get both right. And right now I don't see that happening. I have not enjoyed the game play in this alpha thus far.
But I will come and check it out on April 15th, or whatever the opening day happens to be, just like I gave sojourn2 a chance.
- R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-03-2001).][/B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The whole point of this thread is Barbarian playability. You don't seem to care that other race warriors were unplayable in Toril, and might now be playable in Sojourn3.
Sojourn2's problem wasn't general playability. It was the fact that you had to be either a barbarian warrior, a cleric, a conjie or a voker in order to be useful. You seem to want a step backwards so that only barbarian warriors are useful again. The rest of us want everyone to be able to play... this <u>increases</u> playability.
I don't think I've ever played a MUD where being level 1 was fun. I'm not having that much fun yet either except for seeing my old friends... but once I get level 10 I'll be ecstatic with dual wield! Also I really like the shillelagh spell... biggest downside right now is that my favorite newbie zone isn't in. (Ant Farm.)
Things will probably be a bit better when beta opens. Remember that they are still in the balancing process. By beta barbarian's will be on par with everyone else... but no, they won't be soloing tiamat in a loincloth. Wits or no wits. *grin Vigis* I suspect the latter.
Sarvis
I'll tell you ruhr, and I'm not bashing you, but I don't know mplor, ragorn, or any of these other guys at all, even though I've been playing here for 5.5 years. I've never made it to a high level because of time issues (although i really want to). But one thing I've learned is to respect their opinions and their knowledge. They've made names for themselves here as great players, why not take a few seconds and listen to them? People like them wouldn't be chosen by the admins to ptest a mud as popular and large as sojourn if they didn't understand nearly all of what goes on within the mud. Take my advice, dude, be quiet and listen. If you don't like it, leave. I enjoy reading their comments and observations without someone coming in a flaming them.
Make a great day!
Galkar
Make a great day!
Galkar
-
Guest
Hmm, for a while I thought the whole point of this thread was to see who could be the most pedantic. (You were in the lead, Ruhr.) But as to "playability":
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
(snip)
SO, where does this leave us? In the toril days, str & con were king; now however, all four vie for the top spot on your rolling checklist.
This is a character that doesn't deserve to be played on two points; 1) not the max hitpoints (= many more deaths down the road); and 2) a base hitroll of 1 which will hurt eq selections down the road (e.g. having to stack more +hit items than +dam items in those valuable NON_AC slots that will be so few and far between...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure why this makes a character less "playable", especially given that all are in the same boat. What it does is require a player to carefully consider what he is more willing to sacrifice (in terms of natural stats) and make up for with eq. Will this lower the amount of overall hit/dam a warrior can do? Without a doubt, slightly. Does that make the character less playable? Not in my mind. It just means that you have to play the character differently than you would have in the Toril days. You can't walk around as some sort of monstrous damaging machine without really caring what got thrown at you - you have to consider more carefully what will best suit your needs and the needs of your group.
You imply that a character is less playable because a greater number of stats are important and AC has more meaning. I think if you asked any of the Fighter hybrid classes or even any of the Rogue or caster classes, who have had to be concerned about 3, 4, or even 5 stats for years now, they would disagree with you.
All of that being said, we are currently discussing -slight- changes to the roller which should make rolling certain classes a bit easier. No details yet though, because nothing has been finalized.
--D2
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
<B>
(snip)
SO, where does this leave us? In the toril days, str & con were king; now however, all four vie for the top spot on your rolling checklist.
This is a character that doesn't deserve to be played on two points; 1) not the max hitpoints (= many more deaths down the road); and 2) a base hitroll of 1 which will hurt eq selections down the road (e.g. having to stack more +hit items than +dam items in those valuable NON_AC slots that will be so few and far between...
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm not sure why this makes a character less "playable", especially given that all are in the same boat. What it does is require a player to carefully consider what he is more willing to sacrifice (in terms of natural stats) and make up for with eq. Will this lower the amount of overall hit/dam a warrior can do? Without a doubt, slightly. Does that make the character less playable? Not in my mind. It just means that you have to play the character differently than you would have in the Toril days. You can't walk around as some sort of monstrous damaging machine without really caring what got thrown at you - you have to consider more carefully what will best suit your needs and the needs of your group.
You imply that a character is less playable because a greater number of stats are important and AC has more meaning. I think if you asked any of the Fighter hybrid classes or even any of the Rogue or caster classes, who have had to be concerned about 3, 4, or even 5 stats for years now, they would disagree with you.
All of that being said, we are currently discussing -slight- changes to the roller which should make rolling certain classes a bit easier. No details yet though, because nothing has been finalized.
--D2
The quick fix is to increase the prime requisites of multi-stat classes. If the wis requirement for a Ranger were, say, 75... then we wouldn't have to page through 8 years of mundane wisdom looking for a good roll.
The stricter the requirements are, the more stringent the roller will be in giving us useful stats, since it doesn't display rolls that aren't compatible with the chosen class.
- Ragorn
The stricter the requirements are, the more stringent the roller will be in giving us useful stats, since it doesn't display rolls that aren't compatible with the chosen class.
- Ragorn
D2: I´ve played several classes to 50th, it´s not all about barbarian warriors, I think you´re missing my point.
Here is a small list of problems:
1) formerly solo classes, specifically paladins, aren't very good at solo play anymore. My level 8 paladin cannot kill an SS warg on his own; even with lay hands, I can't get the warg past few wounds--all the while this warg is healing at an alarming rate.
2) While experience tables have not been changed, the amount of damage a hitter/tank can do has been reduced, so it takes longer to kill the same mobile, and you need a group to do so (see #1), so that experience that was previously set up to go to one player, must now be split between a party.
3) gaining experience now is an unpleasant struggle (see #2). Hitters previously gained the bulk of their experience from damage xp--now that damage output by hitters seems to have fallen by an order of magnitude, so has their experience progression.
4) Rescue lag = 2 rounds.
5) shieldpunch interferes with rescue. Looking at sojourn2 logs, I don't see silence used any more. Now it seems preferable to have warriors shieldpunch mob casters. So with all that shieldpunching, aren't you a bit busy/lagged out to focus on rescuing casters?
6) Look. doing experience is a means to an end, the end being zones. Under the current dynamic, it'll be months of valuable time before I'd have a character ready to do decent zones. Months vs. weeks on toril. If there were dozens of intermediate and low level zones maybe that wouldn't be as big a problem.
These things may or may not be easy to fix. If you increase stats I'm not sure that'll be enough to make paladins a solo class again, but it will make it a bit easier for me to fight that warg. Also easing the experience tables would greatly improve playability, as getting to 50th wouldn't seem so insurmountable.
I never said that I wanted a character that could solo dragons, or whatever--that was never the case on toril either. Truth be told, warriors didn't do all that much damage, it was the monks who did.
Which brings us to game philosophy. On toril, as corth mentioned, casters were relegated to a support role, and hitters did the damage. This worked well, as everyone had a role to play.
Sojourn2's philosophy flipped this dynamic: invokers played the damage dealers, while warriors were placed in the support role.
This left a lot of classes out, as has been mentioned. As far as why playability was bad, I think it's evident; not only were many formerly useful classes left out, but those fun hitter/tank classes were now not so fun. You see it went from one extreme to another, the result being unenjoyable game play, which is why I (and many others) didn't stick around.
Now we have sojourn3. I had hoped that you all would have realized the errors in the design philosophy of sojourn2 and that you would seek to create a happy medium. A situation wherein hitters and casters did damage equally, so neither was relegated to the support role, where many classes from both camps would become useful to the new group dynamic.
I can't comment on rangers and rogues, but it doesn't appear to me that things have changed from the sojourn2 game philosophy. Looking at Alpha1 logs, it still looks like invokers are the only real damage dealers, etc.
You see you'll never strike a balance between the philosophies of sojourn2 and toril if you take the stance that the hitter classes should be crippled as they are now.
What it would take is the restoration of toril level attributes to the hitter classes, and marginal downgrades to invoker damage for the philosophy I propose to work.
Without monks, the hitter classes will never be the primary damage dealers; by the same token, with respectable downgrades, spell casters won't be the sole damage dealers either. Instead, both groups will do equal damage, opening up a wide range of grouping formulas.
No invokers on? fine get a few more rangers and rogues. No hitters on? stack up on invokers.
The warriors would be the glue; there to provide marginal damage and rescue/tank.
But this doesn't appear to be in the works. Instead you've broadened on the sojourn2 philosphy by elevating classes such as shamen to invoker type damage dealers, and lowered warrior/hitter damage from sojourn2 levels (from what I can see).
So you see why I'm frustrated?
Also, this thread isn't about barb warrior supremacy. If anything I'd like to see D&D 3E warrior rules implemented, where even a gnome warrior gets good hitpoints, and can compete in battles with dwarf warriors.
My point was that I didn't want to see barb/dwarf warriors dumbed down so that other warrior races could be somewhat equal. Hell I'd love to RP a gnome warrior.
Re: The seeming advantage in stat rolling for various warrior races. OK, all I had to go on was experience. I so far have rolled two grey elf warriors both with mighty/good/good/heric type stats in the first four slots--all with in the space of half an hour. Conversely, after 3 hours of rolling barb warriors I could only get 3 scores better than good in the first four stats. Sorry for the mistaken interpretation.
-R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-04-2001).]
Here is a small list of problems:
1) formerly solo classes, specifically paladins, aren't very good at solo play anymore. My level 8 paladin cannot kill an SS warg on his own; even with lay hands, I can't get the warg past few wounds--all the while this warg is healing at an alarming rate.
2) While experience tables have not been changed, the amount of damage a hitter/tank can do has been reduced, so it takes longer to kill the same mobile, and you need a group to do so (see #1), so that experience that was previously set up to go to one player, must now be split between a party.
3) gaining experience now is an unpleasant struggle (see #2). Hitters previously gained the bulk of their experience from damage xp--now that damage output by hitters seems to have fallen by an order of magnitude, so has their experience progression.
4) Rescue lag = 2 rounds.
5) shieldpunch interferes with rescue. Looking at sojourn2 logs, I don't see silence used any more. Now it seems preferable to have warriors shieldpunch mob casters. So with all that shieldpunching, aren't you a bit busy/lagged out to focus on rescuing casters?
6) Look. doing experience is a means to an end, the end being zones. Under the current dynamic, it'll be months of valuable time before I'd have a character ready to do decent zones. Months vs. weeks on toril. If there were dozens of intermediate and low level zones maybe that wouldn't be as big a problem.
These things may or may not be easy to fix. If you increase stats I'm not sure that'll be enough to make paladins a solo class again, but it will make it a bit easier for me to fight that warg. Also easing the experience tables would greatly improve playability, as getting to 50th wouldn't seem so insurmountable.
I never said that I wanted a character that could solo dragons, or whatever--that was never the case on toril either. Truth be told, warriors didn't do all that much damage, it was the monks who did.
Which brings us to game philosophy. On toril, as corth mentioned, casters were relegated to a support role, and hitters did the damage. This worked well, as everyone had a role to play.
Sojourn2's philosophy flipped this dynamic: invokers played the damage dealers, while warriors were placed in the support role.
This left a lot of classes out, as has been mentioned. As far as why playability was bad, I think it's evident; not only were many formerly useful classes left out, but those fun hitter/tank classes were now not so fun. You see it went from one extreme to another, the result being unenjoyable game play, which is why I (and many others) didn't stick around.
Now we have sojourn3. I had hoped that you all would have realized the errors in the design philosophy of sojourn2 and that you would seek to create a happy medium. A situation wherein hitters and casters did damage equally, so neither was relegated to the support role, where many classes from both camps would become useful to the new group dynamic.
I can't comment on rangers and rogues, but it doesn't appear to me that things have changed from the sojourn2 game philosophy. Looking at Alpha1 logs, it still looks like invokers are the only real damage dealers, etc.
You see you'll never strike a balance between the philosophies of sojourn2 and toril if you take the stance that the hitter classes should be crippled as they are now.
What it would take is the restoration of toril level attributes to the hitter classes, and marginal downgrades to invoker damage for the philosophy I propose to work.
Without monks, the hitter classes will never be the primary damage dealers; by the same token, with respectable downgrades, spell casters won't be the sole damage dealers either. Instead, both groups will do equal damage, opening up a wide range of grouping formulas.
No invokers on? fine get a few more rangers and rogues. No hitters on? stack up on invokers.
The warriors would be the glue; there to provide marginal damage and rescue/tank.
But this doesn't appear to be in the works. Instead you've broadened on the sojourn2 philosphy by elevating classes such as shamen to invoker type damage dealers, and lowered warrior/hitter damage from sojourn2 levels (from what I can see).
So you see why I'm frustrated?
Also, this thread isn't about barb warrior supremacy. If anything I'd like to see D&D 3E warrior rules implemented, where even a gnome warrior gets good hitpoints, and can compete in battles with dwarf warriors.
My point was that I didn't want to see barb/dwarf warriors dumbed down so that other warrior races could be somewhat equal. Hell I'd love to RP a gnome warrior.
Re: The seeming advantage in stat rolling for various warrior races. OK, all I had to go on was experience. I so far have rolled two grey elf warriors both with mighty/good/good/heric type stats in the first four slots--all with in the space of half an hour. Conversely, after 3 hours of rolling barb warriors I could only get 3 scores better than good in the first four stats. Sorry for the mistaken interpretation.
-R
[This message has been edited by Ruhr (edited 04-04-2001).]
1) Try grouping like the rest of us. I don't think I've ever been able to solo a warg before 11th or 12th level. And by then I'm usually grouped for cards.
2) Funny thing is... normally by the time I get to SS I've hada few mid-level pieces of armor and weapons handed to me. So of course I was doing more damage... but it was because of better eq I think. If anything I should be hitting more often now because of hitroll being based on dex rather than str.
3) See 2.
4) I seem to be able to try and rescue every round? Though I've noticed missed bash lag is like 3 rounds... which seems a bit excessive.
5) Never got to do big zones and such.
But it seems to me that the shieldpunching thing was pretty common in soj2 and all the casters survived just fine. If not that simply means we need a new tactic... it's called game challenge. I mean sure... we could all sit around playing pong, but it gets pretty boring after a while eh?
6) Ahhh. Here we have it, you're admission of being a powergamer. I've never passed 36. Never done one of the high level zones. Never even finished any decent quests. Now for you this seems to be a crippling thing, something that the MUD would suck without. Yet I've been playing for 3+ years now. Why, you ask? Because I have a great time grouping with people and seeing my friends all the time. Sure... I'd love to go do zones and finish high level quests, but I'm in no rush to get there in a couple weeks. Sojourn is about grouping. Even when zoning and questing you need groups to kill things and finish zones... doing exp is really just practice for zoning. You get together with a bunch of people and do wargs and talk and shit, then when you're all level 50 you do the same thing on tiamat... only with less talking and more trying to stay alive.
Playability is about getting to the highest level? Lets insert the proper words there. "Making sojourn easy would make it easy to get to 50th." There are playability issues right now. I hear switching occurs way too much, bash lag seems a bit high... htings like that. Experience is just not one of those, hard slow experience has always been a part of Sojourn. You want easy leveling? I know one ROM where you can hit 100 within a week.
I agree with you... sojourn2 screwed hitters over. But I still had fun, and got to write lots of good arguments about why weapon stats should be increased. (They are being increased this time around right? right? *peer*)
Sojourn3 looks like it is not only trying to strike a balance between casters and hitters, but also between elves and barbarians. Quit bitching about it. No one is crippling the hitter classes, in fact since the hitter classes are all weaker races we can finally get a high hitroll now that it's dependant on dex. Before barbies would always hav the highest hitroll because it was str based. But since a humans dex can be higher than a barbies now us puny human rangers can have a better hitroll... and we need it more too since barbies probably still have a better thac0.
I think the idea with spell damage is that a lot of higher level mobs will have magic resistance. Which will mean rangers get to come along. Which is the only point. The only reason being a weak hitter sucked on soj2 is because people would always choose a 'voker over a ranger (or at least over me to do zones. Now bringing 3 'vokers along might not be as useful as bringing one 'voker and 2 rangers... heh.
No. I don't see why you are frustrated. You're still rating the entire game on how well <u>you</u> can solo wearing newbie gear. The rest of us are trying to get a game where we can all group and have fun... in newbie gear.
You know... from what I hear about 3e they basically said screw roleplay, let's make everyone ultra powerful and spanky so they can have more fun. Which is fine for your average quake fan... but some of us still like a challenge and some semblance of RP. If a gnome gets hit by a giant he should splatter. Not shrug it off like he was Wulfgar. If you wanna RP a gnome warrior then do it. But you won't will you? Because they'd be weaker than barbarians eh? Awww....
I didn't really try long for good stats. Didn't care... it's only alpha. But many people are saying they got good stats really fast with barbarians as well... so I doubt there's any problems with it. Maybe yer just unlucky. *shrug*
Sarvis
2) Funny thing is... normally by the time I get to SS I've hada few mid-level pieces of armor and weapons handed to me. So of course I was doing more damage... but it was because of better eq I think. If anything I should be hitting more often now because of hitroll being based on dex rather than str.
3) See 2.
4) I seem to be able to try and rescue every round? Though I've noticed missed bash lag is like 3 rounds... which seems a bit excessive.
5) Never got to do big zones and such.
But it seems to me that the shieldpunching thing was pretty common in soj2 and all the casters survived just fine. If not that simply means we need a new tactic... it's called game challenge. I mean sure... we could all sit around playing pong, but it gets pretty boring after a while eh?6) Ahhh. Here we have it, you're admission of being a powergamer. I've never passed 36. Never done one of the high level zones. Never even finished any decent quests. Now for you this seems to be a crippling thing, something that the MUD would suck without. Yet I've been playing for 3+ years now. Why, you ask? Because I have a great time grouping with people and seeing my friends all the time. Sure... I'd love to go do zones and finish high level quests, but I'm in no rush to get there in a couple weeks. Sojourn is about grouping. Even when zoning and questing you need groups to kill things and finish zones... doing exp is really just practice for zoning. You get together with a bunch of people and do wargs and talk and shit, then when you're all level 50 you do the same thing on tiamat... only with less talking and more trying to stay alive.
Playability is about getting to the highest level? Lets insert the proper words there. "Making sojourn easy would make it easy to get to 50th." There are playability issues right now. I hear switching occurs way too much, bash lag seems a bit high... htings like that. Experience is just not one of those, hard slow experience has always been a part of Sojourn. You want easy leveling? I know one ROM where you can hit 100 within a week.
I agree with you... sojourn2 screwed hitters over. But I still had fun, and got to write lots of good arguments about why weapon stats should be increased. (They are being increased this time around right? right? *peer*)
Sojourn3 looks like it is not only trying to strike a balance between casters and hitters, but also between elves and barbarians. Quit bitching about it. No one is crippling the hitter classes, in fact since the hitter classes are all weaker races we can finally get a high hitroll now that it's dependant on dex. Before barbies would always hav the highest hitroll because it was str based. But since a humans dex can be higher than a barbies now us puny human rangers can have a better hitroll... and we need it more too since barbies probably still have a better thac0.
I think the idea with spell damage is that a lot of higher level mobs will have magic resistance. Which will mean rangers get to come along. Which is the only point. The only reason being a weak hitter sucked on soj2 is because people would always choose a 'voker over a ranger (or at least over me
to do zones. Now bringing 3 'vokers along might not be as useful as bringing one 'voker and 2 rangers... heh.No. I don't see why you are frustrated. You're still rating the entire game on how well <u>you</u> can solo wearing newbie gear. The rest of us are trying to get a game where we can all group and have fun... in newbie gear.
You know... from what I hear about 3e they basically said screw roleplay, let's make everyone ultra powerful and spanky so they can have more fun. Which is fine for your average quake fan... but some of us still like a challenge and some semblance of RP. If a gnome gets hit by a giant he should splatter. Not shrug it off like he was Wulfgar. If you wanna RP a gnome warrior then do it. But you won't will you? Because they'd be weaker than barbarians eh? Awww....
I didn't really try long for good stats. Didn't care... it's only alpha. But many people are saying they got good stats really fast with barbarians as well... so I doubt there's any problems with it. Maybe yer just unlucky. *shrug*
Sarvis
On ruhr's comments
1)I was under the misconception that sojourn was a group mud.
2) Well, before we realised the changes, exp felt harsh, but now its been the regular breeze through levels. Doing exp naked with newbie eq from a wipe is always harsh.
3) Hmm.. Rogue fit in nicely in the damage dealing department. During Soj2 I would NEVER have considered a rogue to be vital for a good exp group, but now they have a great and important spot as the primary damage dealer.
4) Sucks But wasn't it 2 rounds in soj2 too?
5)Was never a problem in soj2. There are not many times when there are more mobs than shieldpunchers in a group.
6) Well, in soj2 nobody did any zones until early march anyway. (Jot/ic/hell/ud).
Here's how it looks today.
Warriors tank, bash and rescue.
Rogues deal damage.
Psionicists/Invokers deal magical damage.
Enchanters/Conjurers gives nice spells to tanks.
Shaman/Clerics heals.
I haven't played as much as I'd like but I've hanged with some old friends and we are all close to 20 in levels, and warriors sure as hell exp faster than us casters.
/Jegzed
1)I was under the misconception that sojourn was a group mud.
2) Well, before we realised the changes, exp felt harsh, but now its been the regular breeze through levels. Doing exp naked with newbie eq from a wipe is always harsh.
3) Hmm.. Rogue fit in nicely in the damage dealing department. During Soj2 I would NEVER have considered a rogue to be vital for a good exp group, but now they have a great and important spot as the primary damage dealer.
4) Sucks
But wasn't it 2 rounds in soj2 too?5)Was never a problem in soj2. There are not many times when there are more mobs than shieldpunchers in a group.
6) Well, in soj2 nobody did any zones until early march anyway. (Jot/ic/hell/ud).
Here's how it looks today.
Warriors tank, bash and rescue.
Rogues deal damage.
Psionicists/Invokers deal magical damage.
Enchanters/Conjurers gives nice spells to tanks.
Shaman/Clerics heals.
I haven't played as much as I'd like but I've hanged with some old friends and we are all close to 20 in levels, and warriors sure as hell exp faster than us casters.
/Jegzed
Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests