ogres

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cherzra
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ogres

Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:33 pm

Well, ogres are surpremely screwed with all the latest changes.

They get nothing special to reflect their size except doorbash which is not really worth mentioning. They are able to bash a handful of mobs in brass, big deal. This is where their usefulness ceases.

They get the CRAPPIEST agi and dex you have ever seen, so they get -ugh- ac and even worse -ugh- parry/shieldblock/dex/dodge. Exit tank mode. Damage? Warriors ceased do any damage with the new setup.

The naked damage roll they get doesn't compensate for the hitroll they lose. Their naked hit+damroll is WORSE than a barb, duergar, troll, dwarf, elf, drow, half-elf, even halfling and human. This is really sad. They also regen hp in the most horrible way you can imagine, and get the int and wis similar to a troll (see the log I posted on having to search 46x to find a secret). I see *NO* reason to play one.

With mainly goodie races benefitting from the new stuff such as ranger upgrades, hitroll based on dex and extra attacks based on dex, how about giving ogres something?

What I suggested a while ago is to allow them to wear a shield while wielding a 2hnder. Note, not dualing 2hnders, just a shield and a 2hnder. To prevent them using the best shields in the game while doing this, limit the weight to, say, 15. They would thus be able to shieldblock and bash better, while wielding a 2hnder. Since warriors are useless for damage now anyway, this would in NO way offset any balance, and make them somewhat useful again. It wouldn't overpower them, it would just bring them up to par with the other races, compensating their HORRIBLE ac, dex, agi and thus tank skills. Believe me, they -need- this.

Cherzra the troll
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Postby Nokie » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:38 pm

Cherza, did you rad Miax's post about the increased chance for a crit hit due to strength?

I beleive he siad that Ogres would end up getting something like a 10% change to crit every hit due to their insane strength.

Nokie Quickfingers!
cherzra
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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:47 pm

No, the 180 str was just an example I gave. If you think that an eenie weenie chance more to crit makes up for their massive flaws, you are wrong. A barb gets 6/6, an ogre gets 0/10. Which would you rather have? 10 total, or 12? So much for their 'massive strength'. Btw, warrior damage is useless either way, crit or not. Warriors totally ceased doing damage. Warriors tank, and ogres are pretty much useless at it. They NEED this.

My humble opinion anyway...

[This message has been edited by cherzra (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Faerwynd » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:52 pm

btw ogres can get a 5 hitroll with perfect dex so it's 5/10 not 0/10. a 15 point total.
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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 12:53 pm

How many rolls did it take you to get this, I've never seen even a heroic Image
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Postby Yadir » Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:10 pm

I rolled an ogre warr in about 10 mins with perfect str, heroic dex, good agi and heroic con. Hit/dam was 5/10. It doesn't seem to be _that_ bad imho. I agree that it would be nice to have something to differentiate the ogres. Troll regen is a nice little perk and fire vulnerability, while being a negative, adds flavor to the race. I like the wielding 2h as 1h idea, with perhaps a restriction. Make it so that they can wield only wield 2h's up to a certain weight or make it such that they can't dual 2h's. That would give some control over twinkage as the Soj3 team could increase weapon weight a little if they decided that the flamberge was a little too mighty to be a 1h weapon (it's pretty heavy already, if I remember correctly). An alternative suggestion would be to make some Ogre only weapons. Something that had something like to 2h stats that they could wield 1h. Like a giant tree stump.

I also feel that Ogres should definitely have the most hitpoints of any PC race in the game, by far. They are the definitive 'meat shields.' They may not be terribly agile in combat, but it shouuld take quite a while to chop em up! Besides, somebody has to tank when the incen clouds start going off and the trolls all turn into charcoal briquettes. Break out the marshmallows!
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Postby Uthgar » Wed Apr 11, 2001 2:57 pm

Ogres really ought to be compared only to their competition, trolls. A troll at max stats gets 6/6 and -45 agility bonus. An ogre at max stats gets 5/10 and -8 agility bonus. Both get the same number of hp. Trolls get a 3% bonus to get crits if they have TOP strength, whereas an ogre gets 5% bonus to crit at 72 strength or higher. So far, ogres have much better hit/dam and crit chance (and, I'm sorry, after the retuning of combat we did, you can hit 40 damroll and still hit 90% of the time, so your damage whine aint cuttin it). Also, many of the nicest 1 handed weapons are wt 14, which allows them to be dual wielded only by one race: ogres. The only place ogres take a hit is 37 points of ac. Let us also add they are unbashable by most mobs, and when enlarged can be unbashable to any mob, and, in fact, bash a lot of mobs no other race could. If you factor in the increased damage trolls take when bashed, ogres come out ahead despite their agility. Add in the fact that most warrior skills are notched by high strength. Finally, the two most favorite spells cast by high level mages are: acidstorm and incendiary cloud, both of which do bonus damage to trolls. Frankly, I think you have to be a loon to play a troll instead of an ogre. All trolls get is regen that does them no good in high-level zone situations.

Uthgar
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:02 pm

Dern your logic, Uthgar!

Yayaril
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Postby Xizz » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:35 pm

Uthgar sort of has the right idea, however there are some flaws(based upon prewipe rules however). I don't think there many high level zones that are done where casters get the chance to cast more than one spell. Either bashers are assigned or the room was silenced (sojourn3 would be different).

Yes ogres can dual wield some of the nicest 1h weapons that are wt14. (psst only one i recall would be the sceptre from tiamat... now to get two of those! :P) however, what warrior ever bothers to use two one handers when they could use a two hander? If I recall correctly, dual wield only added one extra attack for warriors and haste had no effect on it. thus they would do 4 attacks hasted. 3 from primary and one from secondary. Now if you look at a two hander. That's 3 attacks from a two hander damage roll. I think most warriors picked the two hander based upon this logic.

Now, in terms of critical percentage, in real life, unless you're using a loaded dice, 3% and 8% really isn't much. You're still not going to reliably say I'm doing one critical more in one round of combat as compared to the troll.

However, when you compare an ogre hp to a troll hp, at low levels you can reliably say that a troll will have effectively more hp than an ogre. The reason being this: at low levels the agility factors a lot into the tank's ac. Thus -45 means that a troll will be hit less. Whereas an ogre with -8 will be hit a lot more. Now if you add in troll regen. Since they get hit less, the combat will in theory last longer(assuming the troll misses like all troll newbies:]) thus the troll will be able to regen a lot of the hitpoints back during combat.
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Postby izarek » Wed Apr 11, 2001 3:54 pm

any idea if allowing ogres to wield 2handers in one hand (not dualling, mind you) is ever gonna be considered? I think that'd be logical and would make em happy.

izzy
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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Uthgar:
<B>Also, many of the nicest 1 handed weapons are wt 14, which allows them to be dual wielded only by one race: ogres.

Uthgar</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that your mention it, how efficient is warrior dual wield skill? in S2. It basicly non-existed.
Would u dare to say dual wield do more damage than using a 2h weapon?
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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 4:52 pm

Heh, I never ever used dual wield, because it did nothing for warriors. Nobody else I can recall ever dualled either.

If you look at it from your viewpoint, ogres might be better. I'll stick with my choice of the past 3 wipes however Image
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Postby Uthgar » Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:56 pm

Let's assume you get 100 attacks and you have bomb gear, doing 65 points per attack with offense and all, as an ogre. A similar troll will do about 60 (lower damroll).

An ogre will get 7 crits, averaging 125% increase on them. So, ogre crits are worth 146.

A troll will get 5 crits, same increase. So, troll crits are worth 135.

Total ogre damage: 7067
Total troll damage: 6375

So, on average, the ogre does 10% more damage than the troll. Also, keep in mind many weapons proc on crits, so the ogre will proc 40% more often than the troll, and do the damage associated with the proc more often.

As far as ogres dualing. Up to them, but if they get weapons that proc in the off hand, it might very well be worth it. At least they have this option.

Uthgar
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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Uthgar:
<B>Let's assume you get 100 attacks and you have bomb gear, doing 65 points per attack with offense and all, as an ogre. A similar troll will do about 60 (lower damroll).

An ogre will get 7 crits, averaging 125% increase on them. So, ogre crits are worth 146.

A troll will get 5 crits, same increase. So, troll crits are worth 135.

Total ogre damage: 7067
Total troll damage: 6375

So, on average, the ogre does 10% more damage than the troll. Also, keep in mind many weapons proc on crits, so the ogre will proc 40% more often than the troll, and do the damage associated with the proc more often.

As far as ogres dualing. Up to them, but if they get weapons that proc in the off hand, it might very well be worth it. At least they have this option.

Uthgar</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Assumption is the mother of all F*** up." quote from Under Siege 2 - Dark Territory. Ogre get 7% critic and Troll get 5%, dare I say u based on 100 dex or str (whatever critic fall under). You still haven't asnwer the question from previous post regarding to warrior dual wield this time around. You utters "dual wield proc offhand blah blah blah do more damage ..." make no sense if you dual 2 3d4 weapon and the offhand hit/proc/critic one of every 20, 30 rounds based from S2? Based from my knowledge in S2, warrior with dual weapon and haste rarely get 4 attacks a round. Like 1 out of 4 or 5 rounds 20 or 25%. As to a warrior with 2h and haste. 90% of the time 3 attacks a round. which would u rather wield, 2h doing 8d4 +proc (3 attacks 90% of the time) or dual 3d4 +proc (3 attacks 100% and 20-25% for 4th attack). Another point to remember is that you better of bashing with 2h then trying it with dual wield.


[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:20 pm

BTW, you gonna test warrior stuff, get a real troll or ogre to do the testing. Evils is the one that really care and know more about it than goodie. Don't tell me goodie is not bias toward the class. I don't believe everyone is created equally. Babies being born with HIV, blindness, etc... If you tell me a goodie testing a warrior class is the same as evil testing it. I'm not buying it. Type a who warrior on alpha 2 right now and see how many warriors are goodie. Warriors are the bulk of evil race, that is my point. Compare to a good race players, he have more variety to choice from. Ex: Hey Beavis, do you know warrior sux? I did not know that Butthead. Let me reroll into a ranger then.
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Postby Braggo » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:23 pm

yep, wielding a 2hander and wearing a shield would be cool Image but cherz is right, the only good thing about ogres is bashing and strength. Ogres really can't be tanks much until the chanters start getting stoneskin and that's only if theres no troll.

------------------
Braggo Boulderbasher
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:24 pm

Blung, you're talking out your ass.

Evil warriors are trolls and ogres, which are essentially the same race as far as tank ability goes. You've never seen a warrior enter second gatehouse with 540 hit points, score five rescues, and survive.

Spare me the evil superiority crap. 80% of the evils last wipe were converted goodies anyway.

- Ragorn
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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:25 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Uthgar:
[B]An ogre will get 7 crits, averaging 125% increase on them./B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Aren't crits 250-300%? Or is the news wrong?
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Postby cherzra » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:28 pm

Oh, so dorfs and barbs only get 540hp? Yeah, and I'm Bill Gates.
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Postby Yadir » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:30 pm

Uthgar,

Wouldn't you agree that Ogres should have more hp than trolls, or anyone else for that matter? They are 10 feet tall and weigh 1000 lbs! That isn't just because of baggy clothes and platform shoes.

As far as the ability to use 2h weapons as 1handers, I would agree with Cherz and gang that no warrior is going to dual. The skill is pretty miserable for warriors so there is no benefit and serious detriment. They'd have to give up the shield skills which were specifically added for warriors to make them better tanks.
So if Ogre warrs 1h a 2handed weapon they would use it w/ a shield. Hrm.

*considers other point of view a moment*

I dunno if Ogre warrs with this ability would be played exclusively over trolls.. (a warr w/ more hp and more damage?.. sign me up!)
It seems to me that troll warriors would still be in demand for their regen skills, but once equipment was prevalent and high level casters easier to find, evil warriors would all change over to Ogres. Last wipe troll warriors outnumbered ogre warriors something like 10/1. It seems the Ogre race needs a little something that would balance them better against their troll counterparts. Perhaps a roar innate or something?.. dunno

[This message has been edited by Yadir (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:32 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Blung, you're talking out your ass.

Evil warriors are trolls and ogres, which are essentially the same race as far as tank ability goes. You've never seen a warrior enter second gatehouse with 540 hit points, score five rescues, and survive.

Spare me the evil superiority crap. 80% of the evils last wipe were converted goodies anyway.

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give all of us a break on your ranger crap. We all know your good be whining and bitching. I can see how beef up ranger are these day. I have to admit your good as kissing up to god from behind along with a few of your buddy to get what your class wanted.
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Postby Me » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:32 pm

-----------------------------------
Originally posted by Uthgar:
[B]An ogre will get 7 crits, averaging 125% increase on them./B]
-----------------------------------


Cherzra:

An average increase of 125% would mean you are causing 225% of your normal damage, on average.
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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Me:
An ogre will get 7 crits, averaging 125% increase on them.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


93 * 65 = 6045
7 * 146 = 1022


[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-11-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Tilandal » Wed Apr 11, 2001 7:36 pm

Yeah I heard crits will do 2-3x the damage but that only enhances the ogres more. Trolls are definatly better tanks at early levels but Ogres catch up at higher levels. Once you enlarge an ogre its nigh unbashable. Also ogres would be critting every 4 rounds or so. Give them the ability to wear a shield whiled wielding anyweapon (minor difference from wielding 2 hander 1 handed but I think the code would be easier to handle) and you have a class that is equal to (if not better than) trolls as far as warriors go.
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Postby Wobb » Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:24 pm

Here we go.

I've been silent on all of this because I just figured that Ogres were supposed to suck. Now that I hear Uthgar saying, "Frankly, I think you have to be a loon to play a troll instead of an ogre. All trolls get is regen that does them no good in high-level zone situations."--I must comment.

First of all, I have to say, statements like this is why people think (negatively) the way they do. You are looking SOLELY at high-level picture. Leveling on Sojourn is a mindless, pointless, 2 to 6 month boring ordeal to get to ....what, the rest of the game. Let's be honest. Although there are exceptions, the great majority of people want to experience the high-level picture. And to get there, they have to go through this exp-stint. This is the one thing I dislike about this game, but generally just shut up and mindlessly exp until level 40 or so so that I can start doing zones, the part I like. You have to consider the exping portion of playing an ogre. Getting to level 35 (at least) to be useful in zones with (half-decent) eq can be a trip. Sure, if you have a lot of friends and such, its no problem. But paint the picture of a solo troll warrior leveling from 1 to 35 and an ogre leveling from 1 to 35. Who the hell wants to do that? With squirrels critting ogres for 20 hps who wants to bother?

I played a troll last wipe Uthgar. Took part in herm, EVERY high level zone that evils bothered to do. I agree with you in the concept that troll regen does dick when you are facing an Incend cloud, I died more times as a troll warrior in the IC vault than any other place. As a level 48 troll warrior, I was getting VERY sick of dying to fire damage. I attempted to level an Ogre with BOMB gear and it was painfully slow. PAINFULLY.

I rolled up an ogre warrior here in alpha before i rolled my troll warrior, and after seeing how much it utterly SUCKS to level an ogre by yourself, I decided that I would rather level up a troll using the valuable regen at low levels through 40 :P and agility bonus they get for tanking.

I honestly don't expect the staff to make a change to the race, because, frankly, what's the point? I would much rather play an ogre in high level zones, but with all of the leveling lameness we have to go through as players, I would rather sell-out and play a troll because exping is so DAMN BORING HAVE I SAID THIS ENOUGH?

So, well now i'm pissed. I now sound like the psychos in my psychos post in the general forum. I just hope something is done to make ogres either hit FREAKING HARDER or to reduce the damage that comes their way.

Thanks for reading, Wobb (squirreled to death)
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Postby imp » Wed Apr 11, 2001 8:52 pm

Heh if we had a troll in group they plainly said troll tanks, so much for testing ogre Image

Skills worked pretty nice tho but they sure need a cleric in group.

/Bogra

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