Druids

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Sarell
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Druids

Postby Sarell » Mon Apr 09, 2001 8:32 am

I like the idea of our spells only working under certain conditions. However even in the best of conditions they still seem to be a might bit sad. Casting my sticks and shillblah things, against a few little mobs (note speaking from low level perspective) I saw that conjies where doing a whole lot more damage than me. When I was casting indoors or such the spells were really really bad. Again I re-iterate I like the idea of weather etc affecting spells, I just think it may be a bit out of balance. I think that druid spells should be equvilant to conjie / shaman power when in normal conditions, but when outdoors be more like invoker type damage. This would not stuff things up, really what % of zones are outdoors (or actually flagged outdoors hehe, yes I'm working on that list). Take cyclone for example, we require windy outdoor enviroment, yet can you cast inferno in the rain in jot? So yer...anyone else think the balance is a bit low? just on the premis that magic missiles splat things far better than my snake in outdoors... I am not sure if testing this stuff would help, perhaps just look at the figures and think about the ramifications to the druids, the RP aspects are fantastic, just makes druids a bit impractical.

I am really keen to run a treant through it's paces. This is my little rant about what I hope it would be like so as to ocmpare to our fires of old with firestorm healing. They would really need to be able to tank quite well, - lots of ac, perhaps some sort of semi-stone like skin effect due to being made of wood...woodskin? Otherwise we just spend all our time healing them and never hurt the enemy, yes I am talking about solo situations, what else wuld a shaman/druid/etc mental be used for?...

Goodberrys taste great, however.... if conjies can summon a wooden raft inside, perhaps we could have some sort of outdoors minor c, type spell?

I will miss my invis pets...but wont miss losing them due to not having DI hehe.

Lots of love Sarell/Ladak/etc aka Patrick

(i would play a druid no matter how hard they were, how else could I justify the outrages green costume!)
Azralek Silvermist
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Postby Azralek Silvermist » Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:28 pm

I am afraid i must disagree Somewhat sarell
the druid spells need damage upgrades for a lot of them.
But they should not be doing damage equivalent to the other casters damage spell indoors they should be doing less imho.

less damage than other casters indoors more damage than other casters(not counting invokers) outdoors. == balance. although a few more outdoor zones would be greatly appreciated by Rangers and druids.. there are sadly few high lvl zones that are outdoors making our damage spells sadly lacking.
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Postby Faerwynd » Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:55 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Azralek Silvermist:
there are sadly few high lvl zones that are outdoors making our damage spells sadly lacking.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey at least everyone's favorite zone, Jot, is outdoors Image

I for one can't wait to play a shaman and beef up the weather for our druids's mighty spells Image
Sarell
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Postby Sarell » Wed Apr 11, 2001 11:39 pm

nods nods, not sure if they should do as much damage as conjie/shaman inside but definately need to look at them outside. Still not doing as much damage as a conjie magic missille in the best of conditions. Perhaps a bit less damage than conj/shaman/necro/illusionist inside and more outside just so that the overall balance is good. At the moment it looks to me that our spells suck outside and suck even more inside hehe. When you take into account that most zones are inside it leaves us with spells that for the most part really suck hehe. But the definately look better than everyone elses :P
I tink damage equivalent to invokers in outdoor setting would be fine really. There just are not that many outdoor settings to make it a big prob. I see it as invokers being masters of damage spells in ALL situation, while druids are masters of various spells in forest only situations.
*shrugs*, have druids been tested as a solo class much in s3?

Happy thursday!

Sarell/Ladak/etc ... aka Patrick
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Postby Verarb » Thu Apr 12, 2001 12:11 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>nods nods, not sure if they should do as much damage as conjie/shaman inside but definately need to look at them outside. Still not doing as much damage as a conjie magic missille in the best of conditions. Perhaps a bit less damage than conj/shaman/necro/illusionist inside and more outside just so that the overall balance is good. At the moment it looks to me that our spells suck outside and suck even more inside hehe. When you take into account that most zones are inside it leaves us with spells that for the most part really suck hehe. But the definately look better than everyone elses :P
I tink damage equivalent to invokers in outdoor setting would be fine really. There just are not that many outdoor settings to make it a big prob. I see it as invokers being masters of damage spells in ALL situation, while druids are masters of various spells in forest only situations.
*shrugs*, have druids been tested as a solo class much in s3?

Happy thursday!

Sarell/Ladak/etc ... aka Patrick

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bleh forget damage, druids never needed it in the first place, Creeping Doom was more then enuff. Druids are lucky they got anymore damage as it is. I'm more partial to the druids' utility aspects, which were downgraded, in my opinion, for the sake of offense. Only tweak i'd recommend is to remove the restictions on treants.


[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Verarb » Thu Apr 12, 2001 12:15 am

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[This message has been edited by Verarb (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Gythi » Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:42 am

This has ended up tobe a long post, but they say they want feedback =)

My Druidic Life:

So far i've leveled a Elven Druid up to 21st, Sticks to Snakes is the main damaging spell Summon Insects if a backup spell, it the good old 'hit many time for lesser damage each but on the whole do more damage, thing'. I can solo stuff outside around and little above my level, to the point of being able to level without help of a group all at all times (like it use tobe IMHO). Inside damage seems tobe about 1/3 of the outside damage, while its not great, its still enough to dent a mob decently.

Going to miss the elementals of old, even though they were mainly weak compared to Conj Elementals (as they should), each type had its effectivness. Tho i've heard good things about treant from an Alpha1 tester, so i'm waiting to see what their all about.

Some of the spells could use a name change tho. 'Shillaugh' (or whatever) isnt the 'enchanting a staff' spell that it is in adnd, it s one time strike, something like 'Splinter Strike' or somthing non-enchantment implying. 'Changestaff' also needs help, 'Liveoak' sounds better, do to your changing a tree in the forest into a treant, not a staff, which you would have to have (and could have inside) into a treant (which it'd ahve tobe enlarged tobe a decent sized treant, not a stickman =P. 'Flame Blade' with its instant duration, is not summoning a blade of flame for you to wield, but throwing flames at the victim, soemthing like 'Produce Flames' or soemthing would be a nice change.

I am going to miss some of the utlity spells that removed to make room for damage spells. Ones i'll miss the most are Cure Blindness, Remove Poison, Remove Curse and Summon. Gods seem to hate summon fer the fact you can alter the situations of fighting some mobs in other than their plan formations. But it was very nive to get people out of bad places, regroup you splintered group that ended up fleeing multi different direction, ect.

Its nice to have 'Specialize Nature' and that they changed spell over to that type so druid could be more effective with them. But some spells were changed/added that really dont make sense being that type. I'm thankfull that most all my spells are 'Nature', but i favore balance and logic over power, so i think some need tobe moved to the correct spell types, its not hard to tell which ones need tobe moved.

An idea i had on spells and effects/duration is that the spells effect be based on the number of levels sicne you got the spell instead of what level you are. So a Druid would have a better Barkskin than a Ranger without putting Barkin into the Nature spell type (rely should be a enchantment unless it required you tobe in a forest to cast). As this is a major reworking of how things work, doubt it'll ever come tobe no matter how much logic it'd make in balancing classes.

Some other ideas i had were to making traveling in forest/plains easier for druids, being able to hide in a forest, having a lil melee combat edge in forest (and less in towns, theory being useing the terrain to its utmost advantage), praying & healing better is forests (less so in towns or not at all on praying), and making shapeshift high level and more effective (questing for shapes and such, in adnd at very high levels they can shapeshift into elementals, which would be cool as hell).

Like most other non-warrior type classes, druid usefulness seens til 6th but shows its colors as an effective class at 11th (when you dont fail your Sticks and you can cast Barkskin).

I've played a druid in every version of Sojourn (Toril and Duris) since near the begining of Sojourn1 Beta and so far i like the changes to the class, but i see that many zones need work to adjust to make sure outside forest rooms are flagged correctly. Old zone designers seem to like to use the 'inside' flag in rooms of forests to make it easier to travel in and not be effected by weather.

Biggest wish is that there was a skill that showed you more detail on a room's flags, as 'weather' is good for seeing if your 'outside' but another factor on your spells is that you have tobe away from a city, which you'll only find out when you try and cast a battle spell. Most times its really important to know what the room is like before you decide weather or not you can cast at full effect. The Coder i talked to bout this didnt seem to think it was much of a big deal 'guess and check' was their response, but the only non-combat natural spells is goodberry, which is jsut outside, you can be near town...so it worthless for testing room effectiveness. I would think that since so much rides on your spells working right, you'd have character knowledge or how civilized an area is. Hoping they are seriously looking at the flags of the zone rooms in beta.

Thanx for reading =)

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-11-2001).]
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Postby Averyn » Thu Apr 12, 2001 1:41 pm

Gythi wrote,
Biggest wish is that there was a skill that showed you more detail on a room's flags, as 'weather' is good for seeing if your 'outside' but another factor on your spells is that you have tobe away from a city, which you'll only find out when you try and cast a battle spell. Most times its really important to know what the room is like before you decide weather or not you can cast at full effect. The Coder i talked to bout this didnt seem to think it was much of a big deal 'guess and check' was their response, but the only non-combat natural spells is goodberry, which is jsut outside, you can be near town...so it worthless for testing room effectiveness. I would think that since so much rides on your spells working right, you'd have character knowledge or how civilized an area is. Hoping they are seriously looking at the flags of the zone rooms in beta.

Yeah, i was pitching for a way of knowing if a room is considered too near civ or true outdoors. I was thinking maybe if you stand in a room without leaving for 5-10 seconds a message will appear like... 'The natural energy of this place is weak' or 'The natural energy of this place is strong'... the delay gives it a bit of balance so u would prolly wait before nuking the crap out of a mob. Image

On a side note, Summon is still in your 4th circle. Seems like the help files became a bit off when it was changed.

Averyn
Gythi
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Postby Gythi » Thu Apr 12, 2001 5:16 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Averyn:
Yeah, i was pitching for a way of knowing if a room is considered too near civ or true outdoors. I was thinking maybe if you stand in a room without leaving for 5-10 seconds a message will appear like... 'The natural energy of this place is weak' or 'The natural energy of this place is strong'... the delay gives it a bit of balance so u would prolly wait before nuking the crap out of a mob. Image

On a side note, Summon is still in your 4th circle. Seems like the help files became a bit off when it was changed.

Averyn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ahh cool, guess i trust help files (they alway told me not to believe everything a read...)

I dont think its should be auto, unless it can be simply added to a rooms desc. Just thought a skill would be easier for them todo =)
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Postby Kiloppile » Thu Apr 12, 2001 6:33 pm

Druid damage from spells is at least on par with most casters (by that i mean non-invokers) in the right conditions.

In the wrong situation, it is *significantly* less, which was a compromise from the original design where they didn't work.

Adding a message that tells the player casting the spell that the conditions are not optimal is a great idea, hope it happens.
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Postby Faerwynd » Thu Apr 12, 2001 7:52 pm

I agree that druid spell power should rival invokers outside in perfect conditions. Like call lightning (is there such a spell) in a full on thunderstorm should be on par with an invoker spell of the same level? Get my meaning?

Indoors of course they should be weaker than shamans/conjurers. I don't think any druid (or anyone!) should argue this.

I promise, even with invokerclass power outdoors, you're not going to steal any of their thunder (spell combinations aside, no pun intended heh).

Hopefully the imms are looking at the druid spell power knobs.
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Postby Elarin » Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:04 pm

as far as a skill goes why not call it 'nature sense'. It would be an active skill with a lag time associated with it.
It would tell you if you feel that the area would be suited for your spells or not..

Elarin
Gythi
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Postby Gythi » Thu Apr 12, 2001 9:39 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Elarin:
as far as a skill goes why not call it 'nature sense'. It would be an active skill with a lag time associated with it.
It would tell you if you feel that the area would be suited for your spells or not..

Elarin</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly, i dotn expect a Druid to know how to find lunch in the forest like a ranger can (Druids always bring box lunches while 'being one with nature'), just tell the the forest is just that, a forest (and wether it away from town, <Sniff> dont smell humans, must be good place to cast =P)

Thanx fer the support Cleric! =)

- Gythi
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Postby Averyn » Thu Apr 12, 2001 10:08 pm

Faerwynd wrote,
"I agree that druid spell power should rival invokers outside in perfect conditions. Like call lightning (is there such a spell) in a full on thunderstorm should be on par with an invoker spell of the same level? Get my meaning?"

Yeah, at first i was thinking mebbe in the perfect weather condition the spell damage doubles or something, but it doesn't look like it after i started using the "gc" command. oh well... would be nice to rival an invoker outdoors and in the perfect ideal environment. Image Oh and the old single target Call Lightning spell is now like a Chain Lightning, except it's stronger outdoors of course! foooooooom!

Faerwynd wrote.
"Indoors of course they should be weaker than shamans/conjurers. I don't think any druid (or anyone!) should argue this."

Thats pretty much taken care of. After pushing the indoors damage to 2/3 from Nothing, it is now at a balanced 1/3 damage indoors/near civ...

Faerwynd wrote,
"Hopefully the imms are looking at the druid spell power knobs."

I just want the unofficially named "Nature Sense" to finalize our class. We're pretty well off so far, much different than before. A little too offensive for my taste, but I can learn to enjoy that portion of the druid class. Image

Averyn
Gythi
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Postby Gythi » Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:46 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Averyn:

Yeah, at first i was thinking mebbe in the perfect weather condition the spell damage doubles or something, but it doesn't look like it after i started using the "gc" command. oh well... would be nice to rival an invoker outdoors and in the perfect ideal environment. Image Oh and the old single target Call Lightning spell is now like a Chain Lightning, except it's stronger outdoors of course! foooooooom!

I just want the unofficially named "Nature Sense" to finalize our class. We're pretty well off so far, much different than before. A little too offensive for my taste, but I can learn to enjoy that portion of the druid class. Image

Averyn</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having that third level in the spell's effectiveness would kick ass (indoors, outdoors and ideal outdoors).

I also think they went lil overboard on adding 'power' to Druids, but all we need todo is ajust our personalities, from the helping passive Druids to the 'i'm gonna kick your ass into the next decade for picking my roses you orc faced son of a wentch' Druids, groups are just gonna have to respect thier taxi little more or else they will be walking with a snake up their arse =P
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Postby Averyn » Fri Apr 13, 2001 1:59 am

'i'm gonna kick your ass into the next decade for picking my roses you orc faced son of a wentch'

or 'insert ranger joke here' any kind works! =)
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Postby Gythi » Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Averyn:
<B>
or 'insert ranger joke here' any kind works! =)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont knwo any ranger jokes :P

(this post was a mistake, but cant delete it Image )

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-14-2001).]
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Postby Gythi » Sun Apr 15, 2001 1:47 am

I have another major point to make that mainly regards Druid and their neutrality.

As alignment stands as it is (for everyone) if your good you have to kill good things to get to the end of neutral, then you have to kill neutral things to get more to middle of neutral.

Problem: Animals are the main neutral mobs one can easly kill to get to perfect neutrality.

Yes you could shift to fighting neutral mobs but your group or the cause your fighting for isnt hardly ever concerned with your alignment.

Why this a bigger problem now is that some druid spells require you tobe Neutral (as a druid should be).

Another part of the problem is that most all undead are flagged as Evil (which in reality most undead are not Evil, they are a neutral creature being forced by an evil creatre todo things which they have no control over). While it would be imposible to convience most people of this fact and most good people would hate that change cause they'd go neutral killing them. Plus getting the gods to switch most the undead of all zones to neutral is a laughing matter.

With the facts above it leads to one major druid problem, we end up in groups and stuff kill undead and other evil stuff (cause that kinda the point of being a good adventure on the 'good' race side, and that kinda how zones are built). And the druid's ends up as good, losing some spells and RP factors. Then to fix this without spending HOURS killing a few neutral mobs that would make sense fer a druid to kill, they end up killing Animals, Plants and natrual, peaceful stuff to get more druidly (which dont make sense).

One idea i fergot to list in my other large post was that druids should get minus exp for killing animals and bonus exp for killing undead. Like a paladin, tho while paladins are good vs evil, druids are nature (animals) vs un-natural perversions of life (undead).

Though new to this idea is to add an alignment shifting tweak with it, making druids more evil for killing animals and more neutral (not good) for killing undead.

This mostly solves the problem of keeping druids on a druidic path (well give them less excuse to stray from it). As it is in the game its kinda always been hard to maintain neutrality and i hope code could be made for this, plus if the code was made tweakable it could be applied in other application for other classes, races or skills.

Expample:
- Maybe shaman shouldnt kill animals either or think its bad to kill spirits that they worship.
- Maybe someone else can think of a good reason fer a class not tobe killing a certain race.
- Maybe (idea from AD&D 3E) rangers could get a 'Favored Enemy' at the cost of protecting another.

In general its kinda a simple control method. Bad EXP....bad mojo!

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-14-2001).]
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 15, 2001 3:54 am

Actually druids could in general care less about undead. Hence the reason the have no way to turn undead/control them like many "clerics" do. Druids are supposed to stay neutral by killing evil things and good things that threaten his surrounding. They are not crusaders, and I for one wouldn't want to see them protrayed in that light.
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Postby Gythi » Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:50 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
Actually druids could in general care less about undead. Hence the reason the have no way to turn undead/control them like many "clerics" do. Druids are supposed to stay neutral by killing evil things and good things that threaten his surrounding. They are not crusaders, and I for one wouldn't want to see them protrayed in that light.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then, do you think we should jsut sit a grovel (one single grove) and protect it like druids do? and yes, druids do give a shit about undead because they are a unbalancement of the natural cycle of life. And since it make no since in the mudding way of things for druids to sit on their asses, while they are out 'adventureing' they might as well crusade killing undead. Clerics thinks undead are 'ungodly' and 'evil' and in their preachy manor of life, they convience other of this and send them off to destroy undead. Druids kinda take it personal.

- Gythi
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Postby Gythi » Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:55 am

AND

Druids dont wanna make undead walk away or control them, they want them destroyed and but to rest.

Even is the exp part dont get used the align part needs tobe, cause if you want us tobe fighting good and evil to balance our alignment, undead mostly should NOT be evil.

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-15-2001).]
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Postby moritheil » Tue Apr 17, 2001 4:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gythi:
<B>AND

undead mostly should NOT be evil.

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-15-2001).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm... I can see in certain instances the unwilling undead would not necessarily be evil... but yon average undead is, in fact, evil. I'm afraid that's sort of a rule of the setting. I personally am in favor of having more human mobs of varied alignment... that druids could kill for destroying nature.

A druid would certainly destroy an undead being wandering into the forest, but I doubt it feels very druidlike to go in an avenging fury into an undead area and start laying waste left and right. It would be sort of distasteful for them to go there and they would have to have dire need... I think a druid would more likely go for containment of the necromantic area.

Oh, and sunray, cyclone, etc. always *did* require the druid caster to be neutral. Just a side note :P

Averyn - call lightning is worth casting now?!? what?! *boggle* *cheer*

Just so everyone knows where I stand on this, I personally was sort of mortified to hear druids become voker-like... just because of the stigma attatched to mass damage and the game difficulties resulting. I'd have liked even more utility spells instead, but I guess that wasn't meant to be.
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Postby Gythi » Tue Apr 17, 2001 5:48 pm

"average undead is, in fact, evil"

Yes, but unless we're pulling Ravenloft into the MUD world, undead rarely 'just happen' and get back up on their own, they are the play toys of necomancers and servants of evil clerics.

"I doubt it feels very druidlike to go in an avenging fury into an undead area and start laying waste left and right"

Again Druids cant be just 'protecting their surrounding forest' because that not how the MUD is designed, it like saying Bards should be sitting in Inns playing their songs. Plus if we went ment by the Sojourn gods to 'lay waste' we'd have a different low level focus than damage spells. And if we are to got out and slaughter thing left and right, undead are one of the few things you dont have debate wether or not they are un-natural or harmful to natures, druids arnt against all humans, in this settings day and age, you didnt have to worry to much about over logging or poluting the enviroment. And i could see a druid adventure from their grove to help fight against a local necormancer's tower or an evil clerics temple from which undead crawled (ie an Undead 'zone')

If the MUD had so many areas that one could find all sorts of adventure in the local forests and wildernesses, Druids would just fight in the forest, protecting it and its inhabitants from the un-natural and strifing to maintain the balance.

But no, we druids have to go all over the land, fighting in cities, underground, other planes...just like the rest of the classes.

If its the exp bonus everyone if up in arms about, forget it, i really just want that friggin Alignment shift in, cause it make a whole lot more sense fer a druid to get more druidic (neutral) killing undead than killing Neutral creatures since you CANT get truely neutral just killing good and evil.

"Oh, and sunray, cyclone, etc. always *did* require the druid caster to be neutral. Just a side note :P"

Oh, i always stayed neutral i guess, mainly cause i was without groups most of the time, so had plenty of time to kill poor neutral stuff.

"Just so everyone knows where I stand on this, I personally was sort of mortified to hear druids become voker-like"

Yeah, it quite un-druid like, personaly I would have liked to see druid's main power be in shapeshift with a good share of utility and healing spells. But like a few classes, druids needed something to change and i'm glad the underdog classes have gotten some attention.

Three Cheers to the Coding Gods!
*YAY* *YAY* *YAY*!

-Gythi
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Postby Averyn » Thu Apr 19, 2001 9:48 am

Moritheil wrote,
"Just so everyone knows where I stand on this, I personally was sort of mortified to hear druids become voker-like... just because of the stigma attatched to mass damage and the game difficulties resulting. I'd have liked even more utility spells instead, but I guess that wasn't meant to be."

Gythi wrote,
"Yeah, it quite un-druid like, personaly I would have liked to see druid's main power be in shapeshift with a good share of utility and healing spells. But like a few classes, druids needed something to change and i'm
glad the underdog classes have gotten some attention."

It seems most of us that have dedicated ourselves in playing the druid class feels the same about the changes. When I first heard about the changes to the druid class, I was expecting more utility "nature" spells too. I was pretty surprised when I found out we were granted a heavy dose of offense spells. Fortunately, the new spells are additions to our previous spells. Not much for me to complain about at the end. Image

I'm guessing the changes where a shock to us oldskool druids because we have to modify our playing style. When we first chose to play this class, it certainly wasn't for their offensive prowess. We chose to play the druid because we liked the idea of a well rounded character that can do a little of everything, but never as good as the "pure" classes. In a group, we got accustomed to being a background support class (taxi! grr). We would help offload tasks from the clerics during spellup, and cast our degenerative spells during combat (not to mention our pride and joy, "creeping doo0om"!).

Now, with the changes, we can't just sit on our asses in the background no more. Groups will "expect", and sometimes even depend on us to deal our share of damage. It means we have to be at the damn keys during combat instead of taking a nap *sniff*. I'm gonna miss the quiet life of being a druid of old, but the future isn't looking too bad. Why just the other day I stuffed a flaming acorn up da butt of a frost giant... Those new spells are quite enjoyable. I think we'll become accustomed to the new playing style without a hitch. *wink wink*

P.S. a spark of seriousness, a drop of humor, a touch of sarcasm, all a bunch of happy treehumpers, now dance

Averyn D'amari
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Postby Gythi » Thu Apr 19, 2001 4:41 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Averyn:
Fortunately, the new spells are additions to our previous spells. Not much for me to complain about at the end. Image

Averyn D'amari</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well we did lose utility spells, mainly pro good/evil, remove curse and remove poison. Dont know bout you, but I used these spells abit. Now we along with everyone else have to crawl to the cleric for removal of cursed items, which this world as an abnormal amount of.

Yeah its abit of a ball scratcher tobe out in the wood 'nuking' these days, but i fear what decent damaging spells will do to our beloved classes, we're not as bad, but look how most everyone seeks to screw invokers over. If we are going tobe put on the 'hated but tolorated' list because we deal damage, i'd rather go back to our nearly worthless state.

- Gythi, the Peaceful ass kicking Druid
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Apr 19, 2001 5:07 pm

It would be interesting if druids could shapechange into elementals at higher levels and had the power to survive in the elemental planes, like in 3rd edition.


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Postby Averyn » Thu Apr 19, 2001 7:26 pm

Gythi wrote,
"Well we did lose utility spells, mainly pro good/evil, remove curse and remove poison"

Ahh, lost remove curse... oh well. :/

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Postby Gythi » Thu Apr 19, 2001 8:24 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yayaril:
It would be interesting if druids could shapechange into elementals at higher levels and had the power to survive in the elemental planes, like in 3rd edition.

Yayaril</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, it would take abit of work to balance, but a druid with the ability to shift into some more powerful forms could easily do without the new damage spells. Through they would probly end up out tanking the warrior and out hitting the rangers, so those classes and the balance gods wouldnt like it and they would be downgraded to weak forms again.

Not going to push for any 'power related' spells/abilities due the gods have choosen to make druids the nukers of the woodlands and it nearly impossible to change that kinda choise.

Working on some balance factors (listed above) is hard enough to push for Image

- Gythi, the Druid who is tierd of getting more druidic killing animals.
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Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 20, 2001 12:00 am

I wouldn't mind druids being able to shapechange into something that could hit well. As long as there were some decent limitations... ie. can only stay morphed into a powerful tiger for half a mud day then can't use that form again for a while. Would be a nice bonus for a druid, but you wouldn't be able to say "let's take a druid instead of a ranger for hitting power!" So it prolly wouldn't give us anything to whine about. Image

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Postby Gythi » Fri Apr 20, 2001 1:54 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
As long as there were some decent limitations... ie. can only stay morphed into a powerful tiger for half a mud day then can't use that form again for a while.
</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be cool indeed, with our 'power' time would be limited, it'd work for a short lived group or and extra punch for a larger mob/area. Instead of saving our offensive spells for the battles were the invokers need alittle hand, we add our help tot he hitting power as a true 'force of nature'.

With natural forms of various sizes and strengths and elemental higher up, we'd be useful for our brief time in just about any type of terrain. With making some of the better forms needing tobe quested for (like high casters needing to quest), it would be earned power, instead of instant power.

- Gythi, wishing Dragons were natural creatures.....
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Postby Navia » Sat Apr 21, 2001 3:35 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Averyn:
<B>
I'm guessing the changes where a shock to us oldskool druids because we have to modify our playing style. When we first chose to play this class, it certainly wasn't for their offensive prowess. We chose to play the druid because we liked the idea of a well rounded character that can do a little of everything, but never as good as the "pure" classes. In a group, we got accustomed to being a background support class (taxi! grr). We would help offload tasks from the clerics during spellup, and cast our degenerative spells during combat (not to mention our pride and joy, "creeping doo0om"!).

Now, with the changes, we can't just sit on our asses in the background no more.

P.S. a spark of seriousness, a drop of humor, a touch of sarcasm, all a bunch of happy treehumpers, now dance

Averyn D'amari</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY well said Averyn. I totally agree with that statement.

With all the changes druids got, it is truly like playing an entirely different character. For some of the newer druids I'm sure that this wont pose much of a problem, but for others it will really put a cramp in the way ya play! Image

While I TOTALLY love and agree with _almost_ all of these changes it will take some real getting used to. Over all tho, I am WAY more pleased than I am put-out.

Navia
(btw, Uthgar worked his backside off on these changes,.. Thanks Uthgar! The green in my grin just got a little bit deeper!)
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Postby Gythi » Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:10 am

Now that i've gotten up to the 6th circle (w/o promotion) I can talk lil bout treants:

First off, please chaneg the spellname from 'Changestaff' to 'Liveoak' or something similar, if none other spell names are changed, please change this one. The spell has nothing todo with a staff and in ad&d setting, 'Liveoak' is alot more fitting (plus easier to type Image).

Treants are nice, love the fact they arnt timed, hated ellies going away in the middle of battle. Not great tanks at my level, but decent 'buffers' to start a mob with, with the higher critic rates an all.

Don't know if its effects their abilities (kicking, bashing, dodging, ect) that they are ranked as such low level, hope not, tho they don't seem tobe very good at kicking.

But that aggro towards caster I would think should not be there if you camp/rent. If you you got druids camp/rent alot in a short amount of time, ya know they are twinking their pet (reason it seems fer pets going aggro on ya when you somehow make them stop following you).

Also, its nice hows it is but should be said, when my treant dies and there are no others in my group, it doesnt disband, so i'm left with a one man group. Nice fer the fact I can check spell damages and such of the group stats, dont know how'd effect things, but i'd be neat if you could form one person groups fer that reason, since there is no personal combat stats (that i know of) Image

Note on Shapeshift, it'd be nice if the timer for it (and other timed abilities) reset when the mud crashes/is rebooted.

Looking forward to the spell changes mentioned in the Ranger updating post. Hope the transport vis plant change lets you knwo when you've gone to far and your jump point is no longer valid, without casting the spell.

------------------
"For while a knight at your hand can be quite instrumental, dragons are a girl's best friend."

Gythi, Wandering Druid of Evermeet

[This message has been edited by Gythi (edited 04-30-2001).]
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Postby Faerlien » Mon Apr 30, 2001 12:45 pm

Ok this message goes back to the Undead.
First lets think about this from the Mud perspective, if Undead were changed from evil to neutral the Pally's would have a fit. The undead is quite a bit of evils to lose for them.

I do understand it may be hard for Druids to maintain their neutrality, but this isn't the way to go. I'm surprised no pally's mentioned it.

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Postby Gythi » Mon Apr 30, 2001 4:32 pm

Thats why i sugegsted the alignment tweak and winged away from changing undeads alignment.

It all boils down to evil is in the eye of the beholder (yeah those guys are evil too) and gaining/losing alignment in a generic style dont work when you have such a wide varity of classes.
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Apr 30, 2001 5:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gythi:
<B>Now that i've gotten up to the 6th circle (w/o promotion) I can talk lil bout treants:

First off, please chaneg the spellname from 'Changestaff' to 'Liveoak' or something similar, if none other spell names are changed, please change this one. The spell has nothing todo with a staff and in ad&d setting, 'Liveoak' is alot more fitting (plus easier to type Image).

Treants are nice, love the fact they arnt timed, hated ellies going away in the middle of battle. Not great tanks at my level, but decent 'buffers' to start a mob with, with the higher critic rates an all.

Don't know if its effects their abilities (kicking, bashing, dodging, ect) that they are ranked as such low level, hope not, tho they don't seem tobe very good at kicking.

But that aggro towards caster I would think should not be there if you camp/rent. If you you got druids camp/rent alot in a short amount of time, ya know they are twinking their pet (reason it seems fer pets going aggro on ya when you somehow make them stop following you).

Also, its nice hows it is but should be said, when my treant dies and there are no others in my group, it doesnt disband, so i'm left with a one man group. Nice fer the fact I can check spell damages and such of the group stats, dont know how'd effect things, but i'd be neat if you could form one person groups fer that reason, since there is no personal combat stats (that i know of) Image

Note on Shapeshift, it'd be nice if the timer for it (and other timed abilities) reset when the mud crashes/is rebooted.

Looking forward to the spell changes mentioned in the Ranger updating post. Hope the transport vis plant change lets you knwo when you've gone to far and your jump point is no longer valid, without casting the spell.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um... I believe the reason "changestaff" was selected is because it comes directly from the AD&D player's handbook, actually.
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Postby Gythi » Mon Apr 30, 2001 7:23 pm

Yes there is a 'Changestaff' in the 2nd Ed PH, BUT it only requires a special staff which takes about a day to prepare (so you could cast it inside), plus that treant is a badass, not a stickman. 'Liveoak' from the 3rd Ed PH turns a tree (reason fer being cast outside) into a guardian, true this treant jsut protects your hourse, but on the mud, you are you own house Image


------------------
"For while a knight at your hand can be quite instrumental, dragons are a girl's best friend."

Gythi, Wandering Druid of Evermeet
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Postby gordex » Fri May 04, 2001 4:51 am

Hello all,

I've read a number of postings in here that just make me crack up. Druids for years were totally screwed. At mid level and up you were screwed because there was a specialist class who could cast ALL your spells better than you. With the break up of sorcs into invokers/enchanters, it was POINTLESS to be a druid anymore cause invokers, enchanters and clerics could do everything a druid could do only 2-3 times better. I'd be willing to bet that druids were one of the fewest represented classes in Tiamat runs.
With offense, we'll be able to get into more groups now. For someone like myself I'm not worried about it, I'm thinking about the newbie who was going to be screwed as I was when I started.
With this being a hack and slash mud, you either heal or do damage. Damage was chosen for druids. I like the idea of making their spells treehugger specific. No longer will Gordex Taxi Service just be DOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMing and welling.

The indoors penalty is a little too steep in my opinion although I like the idea.

my 2 cents Image,
Gordex - Gordex Taxi Service
gordex@gordextaxiservice.com
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Postby Gythi » Fri May 04, 2001 1:52 pm

WOOHOO, the Innate Speak with Plants rules, thank you coders!!!

------------------
"For while a knight at your hand can be quite instrumental, dragons are a girl's best friend."

Gythi, Wandering Druid of Evermeet

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