comprehensive warrior feedback

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Wobb
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comprehensive warrior feedback

Postby Wobb » Fri Apr 20, 2001 11:59 am

Taking the advice of the MOTD, i've concentrated on a single aspect of a single class, the warrior and fighting, since alpha-2's inception. Here it is, quick and dry.

Skills

Rescue, Dodge, parry, riposte, Kick, bash, double attack and shieldblock are all perfect. I wouldn't change a thing. At low levels they work less as they should and as the skills increase they work more, wunderbar.

Shieldpunch possible tweak: at any level, whenever i shieldpunch and whether or not I hit or miss, I am almost ALWAYS hit and hit hard by the mob. If this is intended, so be it.

Headbutt: personally, I think the chance for KO'ing either the tank or the mob should be greater. Right now its too much like a kick, you either hit and does some damage or you miss and damages you...who cares? Increasing the chance to KO each of the parties more will add a nice flavor to the game.

Melee

Every aspect of high level Melee I think is right on target. Last night tanking remorhaz in IC with -96 ac, dragonscales, I was killed with a single mortal blow worth at least 218hps. I think that is great--at high levels.

Low levels needs to be tweaked. I know its posted elsewhere but squirrels are hitting ogres for 20 hp blows. I have no suggestion on how to change it, just see that low levels are getting hit way hard by things that shouldn't.

Stats

Str, Dex, Agi, Con. The attribute bonuses also seem to be right on target, which ties into melee. Hitroll, Damroll, agility AC bonus, fumbling all seem to be well balanced. Question, are shieldpunch stuns and strength tied to each other? Prolly should be.

Overall

Overall, and this may go without saying, the warrior is one of the best balanced classes in the game. Obviously this class has been around for a while and has had a good deal of attention and time alotted for it. The revisitation to PC tanking was a great idea. The lower levels' "knobs" or whatever you have, should be turned in their favor a little, if this is possible. As a generalization, things should start out a "little" easier. I do see the work that has been done as far as casters completing low level spells, low level spells being able to kill a mob and such. To round off that tweaking on low levels, see what can be eased up for the hitter clases.

I'd like to thank all the staff for their hard work and countless hours configuring the most minute mathematical details as well as the players who have paid close attention to every single round of combat. Great work.

Wobb




[This message has been edited by Wobb (edited 04-20-2001).]
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Postby Guest » Sat Apr 21, 2001 12:02 am

Thanks. Image
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sat Apr 21, 2001 8:07 pm

The class itself is well balanced. About the only thing I noticed is that Grey elf Warriors(no laughing dangit!) have TOO few hit points now. Yes, they should have less, but a barb warrior at 50 has what, 700ish hps, right?

Grey Elf has 400... I think it needs a bump by 50-75-100 or so.. 500 or thereabouts wouldn't be heinously unbalancing imho. And it would make them more viable. I've noticed in my testing(and I've logged quite a few hours doing this, though by no means as much as some), that no grey elf warriors were taken, and preference was given to barbs and dwarves. I'd like to see grey elves be more viable, but I fear this won't happen without a small hit point boost.


------------------
Mal

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Postby Blung » Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:22 pm

More hp for grey elf? blah why dont u add more slots and hp to yuan-ti warrior too? warrior is race depended. Grey elf and yuan ti are NOT suppose to be a warrior race. You should know better than that.
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Postby Treladian » Sat Apr 21, 2001 9:59 pm

Actually, elves ARE a warrior race in D&D settings. They make exceptional warriors that easily would give any dwarf warrior a run for their money. They routinely wipe out groups of orcs, hobgoblins, ogres, and other evil humanoids that wander too close to their forests. Heck, one of their holidays involves going out during the night and killing as many orcs as they can find to celebrate their chief god, Correlone Larethon (something like that), defeating Gruumsh One-Eye, chief god of the orcs and previously without One-Eye in his name before the two battled. On the mud however, their hitpoints are laughable at best. Halflings get a lot more hitpoints than greys. A lot more, like 2 con notches above them. Elves are supposed to be a bit frail, but this is almost ridiculous considering how elves are supposed to churn out a lot more fighters than they do mages or clerics.
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Postby Fezbozz » Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:08 pm

I agree elves should be a viable warrior race as should drow. What they lack in strength and size they make up for in quickness and brains. I think if Greys warriors get a boost to hp so should drow warriors. Really any race should be a viable warrior because different fighting styles can all be successful. I think thats what was being reflected in drow,grey and the like getting that extra attack. Then again its not D&D so who knows.
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Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 21, 2001 10:44 pm

Something I've kept meaning to put forth but never got around to...

Elves are highly skilled warriors, but they aren't very good at taking hits. Dwarves and barbarians even in FR books can take a shitload of hits and keep going, elves are just so quick and fast that they don't get hit! This is pretty much represented by the new changes to tank skills and such... but that still leaves elves getting their ass kicked by spells... which means barbs and dwarfs are still a better choice.

Now we can either give elves more hp, which could run the risk of unbalancing them against barbs... or we can give them some innate spellsave! Image Elves are supposed to be connected to the weave and all that... so it would make sense that they would have a better spellsave than most other races... and could make some good warrior elf only eq that had more spellsave so they wouldn't need all that extra hp.

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Postby Treladian » Sun Apr 22, 2001 2:34 am

To toss in some numbers into the argument, greys seem to be about two con notches behind halfelves and halflings. That's about 100 hit points at higher levels. While they should be frailer than halflings and halfelves, I think that bumping their hitpoints by one notch wouldn't terribly upset stuff.
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Postby izarek » Sun Apr 22, 2001 3:20 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>

Elves are highly skilled warriors, but they aren't very good at taking hits. Dwarves and barbarians even in FR books can take a shitload of hits and keep going, elves are just so quick and fast that they don't get hit! This is pretty much represented by the new changes to tank skills and such... but that still leaves elves getting their ass kicked by spells... which means barbs and dwarfs are still a better choice.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Sarvis. Personally I dont think greys should have hps equivalent to humans dorfs or barbies. It does seem a lil wierd that those halflings have more, if that is true. Anyhow, I don't think greys should get much of a hp increase, if at all. Like you said, they have great agi and dodge outta the way well. Spells will hurt tho. My question is, wasn't there talk about adding magic resistance (spell shrugging, whatever) into the mud (or making it more common at least). Ppl were talking about this being applied to greys and drow. I think that's the way to go. What's the latest on this?

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Postby Malacar » Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:16 am

Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement.

I agree with the others however, in some respects. On par with humans would negate that aspect of them... But simply put, Grey elf warriors are not viable in their current state. Perhaps my suggestion is not the best, but throw the poor guys a bone. Those hps are pathetic... And if halflings have more hps than them, that's just sad. :P



------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 22, 2001 5:55 am

I disagree. I belive your Hps are represented by your constitution. This covers your physical ability to heal from being damaged, and how well you can take hits. Elves typically have resistances to charm related spells, not magic in general. Drows only have a general magic resistance, and in the use of players would probably be to powerful if set to any state of usefullness. Yes, elves are quick, and dodge blows well, it does not mean they can eat a fireball or a lightning bolt well. This fact is represented in their Hps.

How quickly the tables turn. How people were raving how awesome Elf and Halfling warriors are, and how they are better then barbarians/dwarves. They have different uses. Some can takes hits, some can block hits. If you want to take hits play a more con based race. If you want to block hits, play a more dex based race.

"Grey Elves (Faerie)
Grey elves have either silver hair and amber eyes, or pale golden hair and violet eyes (the violet-eyed ones are known as faerie elves). They favor bright garments of white, gold, silver, or yellow, and wear cloaks of deep blue or purple. Grey elves are the rarest of elves, and they have little to do with the world outside their forests. They value intelligence very highly, and, unlike other elves, devote much time to study and contemplation. Their treatises on nature are astounding."

Direct copy from Monster Manual. I encourage you all to buy it.

If these were High elves I would possibly be persuaded to agree with people at more HPs. Grey elves are typically casters.. not warriors...
P.s. Actually a large majority of elves are NOT warriors. There citizens get +1 to hit with bows/longsword/shortsword because of the fluidity of their fighting. They are all capable of fighting, but they are not all warriors. On toril, they would be classified as "unskilled".

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Postby Sarvis » Sun Apr 22, 2001 7:01 am

Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
"I disagree. I belive your Hps are represented by your constitution. This covers your physical ability to heal from being damaged, and how well you can take hits. Elves typically have resistances to charm related spells, not magic in general. Drows only have a general magic resistance, and in the use of players would probably be to powerful if set to any state of usefullness. Yes, elves are quick, and dodge blows well, it does not mean they can eat a fireball or a lightning bolt well. This fact is represented in their Hps."

So you belive that elf warriors should remain useless on Sojourn because they will die rapidly in zones where area spells go off?

"How quickly the tables turn. How people were raving how awesome Elf and Halfling warriors are, and how they are better then barbarians/dwarves. They have different uses. Some can takes hits, some can block hits. If you want to take hits play a more con based race. If you want to block hits, play a more dex based race."

True... and I think melee balance has been pretty well achieved between barbies and elves and other races. But are you going to Bring Frensolith into some high level zone where he will get trashed by the first spell a mob gets off? Or are you going to take Vigis, who can't parry shit in melee but can eat 5 or 6 incendiary clouds because of huge hp? (I know... exaggeration.. am tired... should be sleeping...)


<i>"Grey Elves (Faerie)
Grey elves have either silver hair and amber eyes, or pale golden hair and violet eyes (the violet-eyed ones are known as faerie elves). They favor bright garments of white, gold, silver, or yellow, and wear cloaks of deep blue or purple. Grey elves are the rarest of elves, and they have little to do with the world outside their forests. They value intelligence very highly, and, unlike other elves, devote much time to study and contemplation. Their treatises on nature are astounding."</i>

So then none of the elves should ever leave Evermeet. Get rid of that damned portal!

The monstrous compendium gives mobs... not player races. There's a huge difference in how they are presented. If we went by the Monstrous Compendium elves hitroll would never increase, and they would all have only 11 hp for their entire careers.


Second: It doesn't work that way in Faerun. Grey Elves are considered the "common" elves... in fact the Gold Elf (or High Elf) word for Grey can also be translated as Dross. "Grey" Elves are more properly called Moon Elves... and they are in fact the ruling class on Evermeet. Gold Elves are basically just more arrogant and believe that they should rule EM... but they don't have the numbers within EM to make that happen. Image Furthermore, there are many powerful warriors of elven heritage... Kymil Nymesin comes to mind, as does Elaith Craulnober. Not to mention a virtual army of Bladesingers (highly trained elven warrior/bards) on EM. Plus almost every "caster" elf also practices swordsmanship, because... well if yer gonna live for 500 years you got time to diversify.

"If these were High elves I would possibly be persuaded to agree with people at more HPs. Grey elves are typically casters.. not warriors..."

There's not much difference between high and grey elves. Not even enough difference for High Elves to warrant mention in your Monstrous Compendium.

But don't forget that the "Grey" elves forged Moonblades for their warriors to use. I forget the exact number... but it was a small army of them. And only the Moon Elves were deemed worthy of using such powerful weapons... which just caused the High Elves to be more jealous. Image So not only are Moon Elves good warriors... they are better warriors than gold elves.

"P.s. Actually a large majority of elves are NOT warriors. There citizens get +1 to hit with bows/longsword/shortsword because of the fluidity of their fighting. They are all capable of fighting, but they are not all warriors. On toril, they would be classified as "unskilled"."

When we start roleplaying barrelers and farmers instead of Warriors and Rangers this might become relevant. But keep in mind that even the elven farmers are apparently armed with elven chainmail and longswords according to the Monstrous Compendium. Which is a lot more than a starting invoker, or even warrior gets.

Sarvis

PS. I know elves only get resistance to charm. But I still think it would make some sense for such a magical race to have a small innate magical resistance. Plus... think of that one time Drizzt avoided a fireball by jumping into a small lake. His training had been thorough enough in magic that he could recognize the spell that was about to be cast at him and avoid the damage from it. Stands to reason elves would have similar training... actually many, many elves are dual class fighter/mages... so they would definately know these things. Image
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Postby cherzra » Sun Apr 22, 2001 9:27 am

My dog has the same amount of hps as the elephant in the zoo.
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Postby Treladian » Sun Apr 22, 2001 4:56 pm

Galok, a number of the subraces in the realms don't conform to the standard rules, like those in the monstrous manual.

As Sarvis already mentioned, grey elves on Toril are really high elves and high elves are really grey elves in terms of their non-superficial characteristics (basically they just swap their names and how they look Image). There also aren't any savage/Grugach elves, even though those are mentioned in the 3E MM.

For that matter, there are a number of dwarven subraces in the realms besides the standard hill, mountain, deep, duergar, and derro subraces. There are things like jungle and arctic dwarves. Gully dwarves aren't in the world though and I'm not even sure if deep dwarves (a neutral dwarven subrace living underground) exist.

We've also got other weird stuff like illithid liches, half-drow/half-glabrezu, and other twists on various races/monsters running around in the realms. Those don't quite fall into the same category as the elf subraces being switched around though Image
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Postby Blung » Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement.

I agree with the others however, in some respects. On par with humans would negate that aspect of them... But simply put, Grey elf warriors are not viable in their current state. Perhaps my suggestion is not the best, but throw the poor guys a bone. Those hps are pathetic... And if halflings have more hps than them, that's just sad. :P

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup, I'm very close minded. I just want an elite race like you do and nothing else. And I don't think S3 is really all about AD&D, paladin allow to group with anti, necro etc. I have no knowledge about AD&D stuff and I don't really care. Common sense tell me all you really care about is A Superior Race, you want the cake and eat it too (grey elf warrior - xtra attacks do to high dex and now more hp?) sure why not, give them the ability to wield 3 weapons at the same time too while your at it. I can see u really trying to help the god balance the race/mud out.
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Postby Malacar » Sun Apr 22, 2001 6:58 pm

Yeah, sure dude. Get your head outta yer butt, Blung. Image

You turn everything into this good/evil debate. My comments were merely about something I noticed. Incase you hadn't noticed, I play an enchanter. I don't play a warrior, and I'm not so fearful of my precious trolls/ogres that I lash out at everything. The gods made the evil races' tanks rock[EDIT: I agree with this, and it's not a complaint]. Stop trying to make this out to sound like all everyone wants is 'their class/race to be superior'. Take comments as ideas and criticisms, and instead of just lashing out blindly, give good, solid ideas and reasons why you don't think X, Y, or Z, would work.

I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing folks making comments based out of jealousy or mashing this good versus evil thing into it. Because, simply stated, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's old, and it's childish.

I made a statement based on my playtesting experience. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. If you do, again, your choice.

Oh, and as for trying to help the gods out? I've given more ideas than you have, Blung. Howabout this, shut the hell up, and when you make posts that are actually constructive, then I'll treat you with respect. Til then, all you'll get is contempt from me. You need to act like an adult to get treated like one. I may not like Cherzra's ideas, but at least she/he thinks them out before posting usually, and I have respect for him/her(I have no idea what gender Cherzra is, but that shouldn't make a difference) in that sense. Which is why I refrain from making negative comments towards him/her now.

-------------------

Now, that said...

My comments were made with the thought in mind that everyone should have a roughly equal(obviously nothing is perfect) chance of being invited in a group. If Grey elves are not meant to be warriors, as some are saying, perhaps we need the warrior class removed from them(I find this highly unlikely). Balance is being attempted by the gods, and I made comments and suggestions based on my experiences. Grey Elf Warriors are the only Grey-Elf race that I think doesn't have correct HP status. All the other classes have shitty hps, and I agree with this, but what's the point in playing a Grey-Elf warrior these days, unless you RP? I thought that was the point of the balance factor, to make it so that classes don't get relegated to things like this. The gods went out of their way to make it so that Grey's have some benefits, and simply put, they are good, but are only a step or three in the right direction.

Some great thoughts in this thread, with obvious exceptions. Keep it up. Even if Greys don't get changed, which I don't expect they will, it's still nice to see ideas and comments based around it.

--------------

Malacar

PS - My thoughts. Mine alone. You got a problem with me? Email me. My email is listed.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Postby Rynlaeis » Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:09 pm

What was the point of this post? I believe it was that Grey Elf warriors don't have enough hit points at higher levels (higher? every level..) to survive when other warriors do. Is this true? Yes, I believe so. Does anyone deny it? Not that I've seen. If you do then perhaps you haven't seen Grey Elf warriors fight before? Regardless, the point was that Grey Elves die quickly because they have low hit points, and that it would be nice if something could be done about it. I agree completely. They get some decent tanking skills sure, and an OCCASIONAL extra attack (maybe once every 10-20 rounds, and that's if they max dex at the cost of other stats like strength and agility..) and that's good. But it still doesn't solve the problem of them getting slaughtered because they have too few hit points. This has nothing to do with a super race, I have no idea why anyone would get that impression from the posts here.. it's just an effort to give Grey Elf WARRIORS (nothing else..) a better chance (by 100 hps, that doesn't seem too terrible to me..) at being able to survive as long as dwarves, humans, and barbarians can survive.

I don't see why this thing between goods and evils always seems to get brought into every damn post that's made here.. for heaven's sakes, if you think the races are unbalanced in the goodie's favor, play a troll or ogre warrior then come over and play a grey elf, THEN post about how the grey elf is so wonderful compared to the ogre.. (I've played both to decent levels and the evils were so much better it was almost laughable..). Not that I disagree with trolls and ogres being better tanks, I think it's fine the way it is, but don't go saying that goodies are better, unless you've played both enough to be able to judge.

If somehow my point was missed in this post (which seems to happen with many posts across the board) then I'll state it clearly here: I agree that Grey Elves have too few hit points and I believe that an increase of about 2 per level would greatly help balance things.

As a side note, Drow Elves are already better warriors than Grey Elves are, from what I've seen. I'm not saying Drow are great, but they're definitely better than Grey.

Another note - Some races that are given the option to be warriors aren't "supposed" to be warriors?! If they're given the option to be the class, then they should be able to be that class with relative balance, I'd think.

And one final note, this post is not meant to be derogatory in any way to the MUD staff, I think you guys are doing a good job in balancing, these are just suggestions to perhaps help things along. If it doesn't fit into the "grand scheme" then don't mind me ;)

Ryn

[This message has been edited by Rynlaeis (edited 04-22-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Rynlaeis (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Postby Nitania » Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:34 pm

My goodness...

are we mostly acting like children?


Nitania

ps I really dont like the idea of someone being flamed for stating their beliefs/ideas or criticism
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Postby Kathon » Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:39 pm

No offense, but isn't that what you just did, Nitania?
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Postby Nitania » Sun Apr 22, 2001 10:43 pm

Hehehe no. Image Im attempting to play mediator by calming everyone down Image
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sun Apr 22, 2001 11:39 pm

Elves as warriors are balanced. Instead of being able to wear more hit/dam, they wear more hps, and get more attacks. Grey elf warriors not getting invited to groups is a BS excuse. Rangers, even grey elf rangers were invited to group alot, and they do not have more hps then grey elf warriors.

If you want to be a hitter that can tank as well as other races, play a grey elf warrior. If you want to play a race that has more Hps.. play a dwarf or barbarian.

The upgrades were to make elf warriors playable, not superior.

P.s. My 46th barbarian warrior dosent have 700 hps.. he has 600...

[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 04-22-2001).]
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Postby Treladian » Mon Apr 23, 2001 12:10 am

Galok: I suppose a lot of this depends on your definition of playable. Greys are less dextrous than halflings and two con notches behind halflings, which make a big difference as a warrior. Heck, one con notch can make a big difference as a warrior at that hit point level. I don't think upping them by one con notch would make them utterly superior since it would still make them have less hitpoints than halflings and halfelves but would make them more playable. I'd like to get the opinions of some people that have tested elf warriors at high levels though. I'm mainly speaking based on experiences as an elf ranger two wipes ago and talking with a number of grey elf friends.
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Postby Malacar » Mon Apr 23, 2001 12:30 am

Actually, Nitania, I was quite calm, so I hope that wasn't directed at me. Image

Posts were made in an attempt to spread ideas on my part, except the beginning of the last one, and will remain that way.

I agree with Rynlaeis, and he said it ten times better than I. They are tanks, sure, but they die too easily to spells and such. You can't shieldblock/parry/dodge those, and that extra attack doesn't come as often as some like to think. Test it out, maybe mine were off, but I have a tank I been munching at, and I get an additional attack once every 10-15 rounds or so, sometimes longer.

Sorry if you felt my post was childish, but I feel it was justified.



------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby Nitania » Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:14 am

My post was not directed at any one person. I try not to do that.

nitania
Image
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Postby cherzra » Mon Apr 23, 2001 7:31 am

Side comment: last wipe trolls had around 730hp at lvl 50, elves maybe 500? Dunno. Anyway, with troll fire damage, and mobs almost solely casting incendiary cloud last wipe, we somehow managed to survive. Let's assume that trolls have more hp, but eat more spell damage, and that elves have less hp, but eat less spell damage.

If we could do it last wipe, I'm sure you can do it this wipe Image

p.s. this is not a flame!
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Postby Treladian » Mon Apr 23, 2001 2:32 pm

Chrezra, uh, as I've repeatedly said, I believe elves had 400 . . . Or at most, around 450 if they get real lucky on rolls.
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Postby izarek » Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:19 pm

So no one knows anything about whether or not elves are getting a change to spell shrugging?

Cuz I think greys are fine at hps, but should resist magic a lil more (and yes, I've played greys)

Izzy
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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 23, 2001 3:34 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Yeah, sure dude. Get your head outta yer butt, Blung. Image

You turn everything into this good/evil debate. My comments were merely about something I noticed. Incase you hadn't noticed, I play an enchanter. I don't play a warrior, and I'm not so fearful of my precious trolls/ogres that I lash out at everything. The gods made the evil races' tanks rock[EDIT: I agree with this, and it's not a complaint]. Stop trying to make this out to sound like all everyone wants is 'their class/race to be superior'. Take comments as ideas and criticisms, and instead of just lashing out blindly, give good, solid ideas and reasons why you don't think X, Y, or Z, would work.

I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing folks making comments based out of jealousy or mashing this good versus evil thing into it. Because, simply stated, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's old, and it's childish.

I made a statement based on my playtesting experience. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. If you do, again, your choice.

Oh, and as for trying to help the gods out? I've given more ideas than you have, Blung. Howabout this, shut the hell up, and when you make posts that are actually constructive, then I'll treat you with respect. Til then, all you'll get is contempt from me. You need to act like an adult to get treated like one. I may not like Cherzra's ideas, but at least she/he thinks them out before posting usually, and I have respect for him/her(I have no idea what gender Cherzra is, but that shouldn't make a difference) in that sense. Which is why I refrain from making negative comments towards him/her now.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, "Mal - I play and enchanter." Which tell me your clueless about warrior stuff. Secondly, most of us would like to hear comments from other warriors. You like to stick your noise in every post, like you stated in another post, nothing to do at work. Its your quote, unquote input. I don't make it between good or evil like your narrow minded think it is. I'm just throwing different warrior races up there to compare with since your so clueless about them. Grey Elf make decent warrior, make superior ranger. If you increase Grey elf hp 100 more, let say 500 compare to dwarf/barb/troll/ogre of 720. Elf would make a better race warrior then those cuzz of the xtra attacks, dodge/parry/shieldblock skills. 500+vits+2 hp rings bring it up around 800. My advice to you is leave the comments to other warrior like Thruar/Dhurn/Cherzra/Turg just to name a few.
So who the one that bullshiting and don't know crap about warrior?
This one is for you Mal - Its better to be a fool then open your mouth and prove it.
Thanks you, drive thrus.


Blung will drop the hammer on you! Image
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Postby Faerwynd » Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:00 pm

*boggle*

Don't ogres/barbs/trolls now get an increased crit rate to balance the extra attacks of the more dextrous races? Why should elves getting extra attacks factor at all into this debate about HPS? Get off that angle cause it don't fit.
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Postby Blung » Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faerwynd:
<B>*boggle*

Don't ogres/barbs/trolls now get an increased crit rate to balance the extra attacks of the more dextrous races? Why should elves getting extra attacks factor at all into this debate about HPS? Get off that angle cause it don't fit.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you telling me grey elf warrior never get critical hit at all? *boggle* As far as I know different race have different percentage.
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Postby Faerwynd » Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:07 pm

It's a reduced chance. Go read Miax's post f00.
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Postby Malacar » Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:11 pm

You've proved my point entirely, Blung. Thanks for proving me right.

---------------

Malacar

PS - For the record, I've played a warrior 2 seperate times, once from scratch, once twinked. One to 48, the other to 46. So the comments are laughable.
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Postby Guest » Mon Apr 23, 2001 4:41 pm

Guys, please refrain from the flames and ripping on each other. There's really no point to it. Everyone has a right to their own opinion. If you don't like it, give a detailed response, not just a "you're dumb, shut up" response. Otherwise, just refrain from posting.

[This message has been edited by Mask (edited 04-23-2001).]
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Postby Aedaris » Mon Apr 23, 2001 5:03 pm

WHY PLAY A grey elf warrior when you can play a grey elf ranger.....

Aren't they getting shrug?
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Postby Malacar » Mon Apr 23, 2001 5:10 pm

Thanks Mask.

Cherzra: I agree on your analogy, but I have yet to see that elves eat less damage from spells.. Course, I haven't done a ton of testing, but noticed that invoker mobs don't always cast flame based spells anymore. Fire-prot will help some with trolls. I do agree there needs to be a balance there. Perhaps when PC resistance to spells goes in(Unless I heard wrong, I had heard there was talk of this), however small it may be, it will even this out, and my point will be moot.

I'll reserve my opinion on it til then, but good post and good point. Thanks.



------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby izarek » Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:34 pm

quick musing over grey elves:

there's one major thing about elves I have yet to see implemented...inability to ress. perhaps the addition of that restriction will quell any thoughts of greys being an uber race? (drow too, of course).

no takers? ahaha!

the bored izzy
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Postby Treladian » Tue Apr 24, 2001 2:11 am

Izarek: Elves can be ressurected in D&D. Raise Dead doesn't do anything for them though. One of the advantages of the 7th level vs. the 5th level spell =p
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Postby izarek » Tue Apr 24, 2001 2:13 am

Ayup tre ya got me. Sorry, its been about a year -1.5 yrs since i played AD&D. Anyhow, without getting bogged down in nitpicky details, i wonder if the addition of no resses would make the critics of greys happy. that's the point of the post.
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Postby Kiloppile » Tue Apr 24, 2001 4:08 pm

Malacar, it seems that you're quite convinced that you've never said anything negative or derogatory in this thread, since you thanked mask for telling people (you're assuming others, since you're an angel) not to flame. I just cut and pasted all your wonderful negative comments... here they are:

Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement.

Yeah, sure dude. Get your head outta yer butt, Blung.

You turn everything into this good/evil debate. My comments were merely about something I noticed. Incase you hadn't noticed, I play an enchanter. I don't play a warrior, and I'm not so fearful of my precious trolls/ogres that I lash out at everything. The gods made the evil races' tanks rock[EDIT: I agree with this, and it's not a complaint]. Stop trying to make this out to sound like all everyone wants is 'their class/race to be superior'. Take comments as ideas and criticisms, and instead of just lashing out blindly, give good, solid ideas and reasons why you don't think X, Y, or Z, would work.

I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing folks making comments based out of jealousy or mashing this good versus evil thing into it. Because, simply stated, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's old, and it's childish.

I made a statement based on my playtesting experience. If you don't like it, that's your prerogative. If you do, again, your choice.

Oh, and as for trying to help the gods out? I've given more ideas than you have, Blung. Howabout this, shut the hell up, and when you make posts that are actually constructive, then I'll treat you with respect. Til then, all you'll get is contempt from me. You need to act like an adult to get treated like one. I may not like Cherzra's ideas, but at least she/he thinks them out before posting usually, and I have respect for him/her(I have no idea what gender Cherzra is, but that shouldn't make a difference) in that sense. Which is why I refrain from making negative comments towards him/her now.

Actually, Nitania, I was quite calm, so I hope that wasn't directed at me.

You've proved my point entirely, Blung. Thanks for proving me right.

Malacar, in my opinion you're the main instigator here. Please don't abuse the opportunity to post here. Most of my time reading this thread has been spent reading *your* negative comments about Blung.
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 24, 2001 5:31 pm

I never said anything derogatory until he started flaming.

Let me quote things that you failed to mention. For instance.. My first post wasn't a flame, it was simply an idea. Blung decided to all but call me incompetant for it. I stated he has a closed mind and needed to offer more concrete evidence to convince me. This was not a flame, but simply a statement of fact. He decided then to flame me, and very nastylike. I not once flamed him before that, simply stating that it wasn't constructive.

If you wanna quote things, as folks like you appear to, please do me a huge favor and bother to read the entire thread. Yes, I flamed. But it was reactionary. And did not involve you in the slightest. Thus I am curious why you feel the need to comment on this after the thread got back on track.

Ask yourself a question, why do you feel the need to quote, and one-sidedly, my comments and then proceed to tell me that I am abusing this board as if you own it. You do not, so why?

------------------
Mal

PS - As always, opinions contained are my own, and are not intended to offend or upset anyone, but are merely outspoken thoughts from myself. If you have issues with them, bring em up, but keep flaming to emails.
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Postby Rynlaeis » Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:24 pm

Your disclaimer doesn't seem to help much, Mal.
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 24, 2001 6:56 pm

*shrugs*

So take offense to them then. This thread has already gone far beyond the scope of what it should have. Really tired of it to be honest. I started off with an idea and suggestion, and got blasted for it. This is why I email most of my ideas to the gods directly now. They actually read things.

It seems to be overlooked that I got slammed first. So be it. I'll keep my ideas to myself, I'm sure that will make Blung happy.


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Postby Corth » Tue Apr 24, 2001 7:16 pm

I probably shouldn't write this...

I'm always hearing that its important to not be judgmental. I think thats a load of bull.

If someone makes an ignorant statement, I see nothing wrong with calling the statement ignorant. Its actually important to do so in order to keep people from continuing to act like a jackass. On the other hand, if you call someone ignorant when they aren't, then you yourself are being ignorant and someone should point that out.

People like to see things in black and white. It seems that anything posted that is unpleasant is immediately labeled a "flame". I think if you go back and look at this thread you'll see that many of the unpleasant things that were said were quite justified.

It just makes things worse when bad behavior is tolerated because its considered bad ettiquete to judge someone on what they say. When we don't judge someone who acts like a jackass, we are sanctioning this type of behavior.

I have no connection to either malacar or blung. What I do know is that Malacar made a suggestion concerning grey elf warriors. Blung responded with his typical "if evils don't get anything out of this then its bullshit" attitude.

Malacar's response has to be viewed in the context of this annoying behavior that people like blung have been displaying. Malacar responded "Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement."

I think his response is reasonable. The part about Blung having a closed mind has been demonstrated time and time again on this bbs. The part about offering no evidence relates to what Blung had said. Blung said that elves are not a warrior race for christsakes...

Blung provoked Malacar's response and now Malacar is getting ripped for saying exactly what needed to be said..

Corth
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Postby Blung » Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:00 pm

Hey Corth, go back and start reading all the post from top to bottom again. First of all, Mal think grey elf warrior does not have enough hp. (if Mal really beta testing like he claim he did.) He should there are other races that gain about the same or even less hp. Compare a grey elf hp to that of a troll/ogre/barb/dwarf is really like compare dog to elephant like Cherzra mention. I throw yuan ti warrior as an example and I get call good/evil thang? yes my post is short and straight to the point, you can call whatever u want.
Then Mal try to back off by saying "I play enchanter in beta", so is he telling me all the suggestion are stuff he heard from, no clue what he getting into, like to get some points from the god? Sorry I'm the type of guy that doesn't settle for bs remark.
As for most of my post sound like races between good and evil cuzz most of my post regard to evil since 90% of the bbs post regards to good race this and that. Am I suppose to jump on that bandwagon? Sorry, but I did not. I'm so narrow minded that I see 2 sides to every suggestion. There's an saying goes like this. 6 out 10 people always hate you no matter what. I can live with the other 4.
Thanks you, drive thrus.


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Postby Rynlaeis » Tue Apr 24, 2001 8:54 pm

Mal, I think you misinterpreted what I meant.. I was trying to say that you were trying to be cautious by putting in that disclaimer but everyone was ignoring it. Sorry if that was unclear, I know the post was a bit short and vague *chuckle*

I was just trying to give you a bit of simple backup, guess I blew it though :)
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Postby Malacar » Tue Apr 24, 2001 11:15 pm

Blung, take a look in the mirror. You acted like a child to a simple remark. You've proven yourself, time and again, unable to voice your opinion without blasting someone and resorting to idiocy. Thankfully, I'm not the only one that noticed it.

Your points are inane. They make no sense. If you took the time to actually think out a reply, with maturity, you'd find people take your comments more seriously.

Fine, you disagree Grey Elves shouldn't be warriors. Why? Give some solid reasons. Don't give someone a line that 'they should know better'. You don't know everything. Nor do I. I simply post my opinions and ideas. You should try the same, without telling people how stupid they are. People might stand up and pay attention and say 'hey blung is making sense'.

The simple fact is you do not. I'm trying not to call names or such here, but to point out how much you are making yourself look bad(Like I did, by feeding into the childish bullshit above this point). Take a step back, and actually look at the first post I made. Then look at yours. Then look at mine again. If you took my post so seriously, you really need to look at WHY. Hell, I don't even know why you did that. You took it entirely out of context as a personal attack on you. Granted, my subsequent posts were an attack at you, and they were -definitely- deserved. But why, in God's given name, did you decide to up and attack me the way you did? Why, instead, didn't you come forward with a coherent remark about WHY you thought that Grey's should't get more hit points. I never once said 'My idea is the best, and it should definitely be implemented.'. You did that, by claiming that all I was after was a powerful race/class combination.

I might also add, that the enchanter remark wasn't a cowering motion the way you seem to interpret. It was simply a statement saying 'Hey, I could be wrong, but this is how I see it.' Yes, I could have handled myself better. Oh well, what's done is done. But so couldn't you have handled it better. And you're just making it worse with more posts, because you're backing yourself into a corner.

I'd like to call a truce, and actually hear why you don't think the idea is good. And to offer an apology for my attacks on you. They were warranted, yes, but they were inappropriate.

I invite you to post your thoughts, hopefully thought out, on why you diagree, so we can try to turn this thread from an arguement into what it should be. A discussion on warrior feedback.

The ball is entirely in your court.


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Postby Blung » Wed Apr 25, 2001 1:09 am

Mal, why dont u go back and read it word by word. "Elf would make a better race warrior then those cuzz of the xtra attacks, dodge/parry/shieldblock skills. 500+vits+2 hp rings bring it up around 800. " it mention on the earlier posts. YOur so clueless about what going on except trying to flame me and get people to back u up. Keep trying :P. Who calling whose name? who being a childish? who trying to push a suggestion that does not make sense in anyway? who suggestion was shot down by another players then turn around trying to bite him? Keep it on Mal. Your doing great.

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Postby Treladian » Wed Apr 25, 2001 3:14 am

Mal,

To steal a friend's friend's signature, Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. I know a number of people who read the bbs are basically ignoring posts by certain people since scanning it doesn't reveal anything worth reading in depth.

And obviously you've got a lot more agreement in this thread than Blung seems to be able to perceive, just dissent in how grey elf warriors should receive a boost or if they need a boost. We're still waiting on someone who's tested a high level grey in alpha to chime in.

[This message has been edited by Treladian (edited 04-24-2001).]
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Postby Koric » Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:13 pm

Flames Are Bad..

1) Flames are not interesting at all.
2) I miss valid points in the thread cuz I'm scrolling past all the junk
3) It makes the thread very mmmm..yuck. As a good example.. this thread went from a valid discussion to flames and now to who did what.

I'm not so much as concerned about who did what at this point, nor is that the reason I clicked on this thread. I think all parties involved should show some courtesy to your fellow players and take it to direct emails or create a forum just for flaming. Bear in mind tho that if you use aggressive language or tone of passage, don't expect a happy response. If you want to pacify a quarrel, you don't curse at the other party and deepen the aggression?

Anyhow can we PLEASE go back to talking about ME?

Hush Just Stop! -Spears
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Postby Malacar » Wed Apr 25, 2001 4:36 pm

Trel, you're right. Getting back on topic...

DO Halflings have more hps at higher levels than Greys? I haven't had the chance to test one out yet, been trying to help out with elves and enchanters. I'd be interested to hear input from them from folks who've played them and want to give feedback on them, positive or negative.

As for spells and such... Has anyone had the chance to get hit by one of the large circle invoker spells from a mob yet? Arena doesn't count at this point, because the damage doesn't equate out supposedly(unsure if this is true or not). Very curious how that stacks up damagewise versus tanks.



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