Malacar:
1. You can tell, very easily, whether or not a race gets more hp "at higher levels" by simply rolling up one of each race with perfect con. There's no mysterious modifier along the way. Halflings have 2 more hps/level than grey elves.
2. The only section of this thread that I have not read completely is the stuff after my post (don't have time today). I don't believe, from reading the posts, that you have any place saying blung is flaming you and that you are an angel. I did not say that Blung never did anything wrong, just that you had done so, and then feigned ignorance of that fact.
3. Getting back to 1, if you're gonna ask questions like #1 here, you are gonna be considered ignorant, at least by people who have played/play-tested warriors. You don't seem to understand game mechanics, which is exactly the point.
Now, on to the reality of the *actual* subject:
1. Grey elves are one of 3 races who have access to a warrior sub-class (Ranger). Grey elves are not classicly "warriors", but *Rangers*. And Greys are far and away the best rangers.
2. Hit points aren't the be all and end all of warriors. If they were, no one would ever bother playing anything other than the core races (troll/ogre, dwarf/barb). As it is, you're not gonna see alot of deviation.
3. The primary reason i can think of that one would want to be a grey elf, gnome, halfling, drow, yuan-ti warrior has nothing to do with game-balance, but has to do with role-playing. Sure, some people enjoy being a dumb ogre, but others might enjoy being a smart ass gnome or a cute halfling.
It's mind-boggling to me that people would be upset that a Grey Elf can't be a top-notch warrior, when they *can* be the best Ranger, and that's quite obviously a class that plays to Elven strengths/characteristics. Certainly in a role-playing sense.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 04-25-2001).]
comprehensive warrior feedback
You know, for someone that claims that flaming has no place on a bulletin board, you should post your email so I can point things out to you in an email so you don't misinterpret absolutely everything that I post.
I'm not even going to respond to this other than to say:
Read my posts again. When you have, and can quote me correctly AND make sense, I will reply.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
I'm not even going to respond to this other than to say:
Read my posts again. When you have, and can quote me correctly AND make sense, I will reply.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Um, grey's don't make the best rangers. No race makes the best ranger really. To dual even a dark steel long sword, a half elf needs a strength somewhere in the 85 range. A DS sword is a wt 3 weapon. That means that a grey would need a strength closer or over 90 to do the same. The difference between slightly over 400 and slightly over 500 hitpoints can make a big difference as well since rangers tend not to wear hit point gear. The extra attack also doesn't kick in that often either. I haven't noticed it very often with my elf rogue, but I'm rolling up a grey warrior right now to do some testing and get some actual numbers.
There's also the fact that a lot of people don't want to play rangers. It takes a lot of trial and error in order to find out how to best use of the skills and spells a ranger gets, especially since a lot of those spells and skills aren't powerful compared to, say, a warrior or druid, and it's mainly via error as you learn what you can tank, what your spells can and can't do, etc. Additionally, kickass elven warriors are a staple of fantasy literature and some people are more interested in that kind of thing than being an elven ranger. But that's another matter and my point still stands that elves are not the best rangers. They can make really good ones, but there really isn't any race that's optimal for being a ranger as it stands right now, whereas formerly halfelves were probably the best choice.
There's also the fact that a lot of people don't want to play rangers. It takes a lot of trial and error in order to find out how to best use of the skills and spells a ranger gets, especially since a lot of those spells and skills aren't powerful compared to, say, a warrior or druid, and it's mainly via error as you learn what you can tank, what your spells can and can't do, etc. Additionally, kickass elven warriors are a staple of fantasy literature and some people are more interested in that kind of thing than being an elven ranger. But that's another matter and my point still stands that elves are not the best rangers. They can make really good ones, but there really isn't any race that's optimal for being a ranger as it stands right now, whereas formerly halfelves were probably the best choice.
If it means anything, two years ago I would have laughed at anyone who said greys made the best rangers. But as it stands, I don't even know for sure what race I'm going to play yet. Greys are statistically the best, but measures are being taken to make SURE that halves and humans have advantages over greys.
- Ragorn
- Ragorn
I'm still for the idea of bladesingers... take the elven warrior, give him a few low circle spells (armor, bless, cures)... and maybe a self only haste spell at a high level... be kinda like a paladin for elves.
-Maybe even a cross between a bard and warrior, have songs like Song of Battle (temp haste), Song of Shielding (armor), Song of the Blade (bless). I know it's been tossed around before, but just wanted to see what people still think.
[This message has been edited by Galkar (edited 04-25-2001).]
-Maybe even a cross between a bard and warrior, have songs like Song of Battle (temp haste), Song of Shielding (armor), Song of the Blade (bless). I know it's been tossed around before, but just wanted to see what people still think.
[This message has been edited by Galkar (edited 04-25-2001).]
OK, let's recap then, since you don't seem to understand what I'm saying Mal:
Malacar- The class itself is well balanced. About the only thing I noticed is that Grey elf Warriors(no laughing dangit!) have TOO few hit points now. Yes, they should have less, but a barb warrior at 50 has what, 700ish hps, right?
*now? it didn't change, just so ya know*
Blung- More hp for grey elf? blah why dont u add more slots and hp to yuan-ti warrior too? warrior is race depended. Grey elf and yuan ti are NOT suppose to be a warrior race. You should know better than that.
*Mildly flamish, but very slight. In fact, saying "you should know better" implies that he thinks you have the experience to know something about the subject*
Malacar- Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement.
*Flame. Attacking the person, rather than the argument. You do make a side argument in the sentence, but main gist is a flame.*
Blung- Yup, I'm very close minded. I just want an elite race like you do and nothing else. And I don't think S3 is really all about AD&D, paladin allow to group with anti, necro etc. I have no knowledge about AD&D stuff and I don't really care. Common sense tell me all you really care about is A Superior Race, you want the cake and eat it too (grey elf warrior - xtra attacks do to high dex and now more hp?) sure why not, give them the ability to wield 3 weapons at the same time too while your at it. I can see u really trying to help the god balance the race/mud out.
*Honest response to being flamed, with very minor flaming back. Suggesting that you would like Elves to be best casters as well as warriors on par with other races. Is that what you want? Probably not, but then from your arguments it is a fair reading... since they do make the best int casters (though I understand that's somewhat suspect now).*
Malacar- Yeah, sure dude. Get your head outta yer butt, Blung.
You turn everything into this good/evil debate. My comments were merely about something I noticed. Incase you hadn't noticed, I play an enchanter. I don't play a warrior, and I'm not so fearful of my precious trolls/ogres that I lash out at everything. The gods made the evil races' tanks rock[EDIT: I agree with this, and it's not a complaint]. Stop trying to make this out to sound like all everyone wants is 'their class/race to be superior'. Take comments as ideas and criticisms, and instead of just lashing out blindly, give good, solid ideas and reasons why you don't think X, Y, or Z, would work.
I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing folks making comments based out of jealousy or mashing this good versus evil thing into it. Because, simply stated, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's old, and it's childish.
*Direct, unabridged flame to start with. Then, you jump to good/evil race which he didn't even say in his comments (I copied his entire post on the last one). So uh, you set up a straw argument for yourself to knock down. More flamish behavior.*
Blung- First of all, "Mal - I play and enchanter." Which tell me your clueless about warrior stuff. Secondly, most of us would like to hear comments from other warriors. You like to stick your noise in every post, like you stated in another post, nothing to do at work. Its your quote, unquote input. I don't make it between good or evil like your narrow minded think it is. I'm just throwing different warrior races up there to compare with since your so clueless about them. Grey Elf make decent warrior, make superior ranger. If you increase Grey elf hp 100 more, let say 500 compare to dwarf/barb/troll/ogre of 720. Elf would make a better race warrior then those cuzz of the xtra attacks, dodge/parry/shieldblock skills. 500+vits+2 hp rings bring it up around 800. My advice to you is leave the comments to other warrior like Thruar/Dhurn/Cherzra/Turg just to name a few.
So who the one that bullshiting and don't know crap about warrior?
This one is for you Mal - Its better to be a fool then open your mouth and prove it.
Thanks you, drive thrus.
*Yup. Big ol' flame. Basically because you had already flamed him hard at least once, possibly more, depending on your viewpoint. And also set up your strawman argument, which of course he was going to point out.*
(All of the text contained in * is mine).
That's about where I chimed in (there were a couple of other posts you guys made, which didn't address each other, so I didn't bother including them). Keep in mind that when I posted, I had just read through the entire thread, since it was supposedly on a subject that was interesting to me. I got to read all the garbage going back and forth, and the 2 or 3 posts of yours thanking people for saying not to flame, since you *obviously* would never flame anyone.
Actually, I've read your comments on several other threads, and usually I don't see a problem with them. But it seems obvious on this thread you took offense to someone saying you hadn't thought something through.
Malacar- The class itself is well balanced. About the only thing I noticed is that Grey elf Warriors(no laughing dangit!) have TOO few hit points now. Yes, they should have less, but a barb warrior at 50 has what, 700ish hps, right?
*now? it didn't change, just so ya know*
Blung- More hp for grey elf? blah why dont u add more slots and hp to yuan-ti warrior too? warrior is race depended. Grey elf and yuan ti are NOT suppose to be a warrior race. You should know better than that.
*Mildly flamish, but very slight. In fact, saying "you should know better" implies that he thinks you have the experience to know something about the subject*
Malacar- Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement.
*Flame. Attacking the person, rather than the argument. You do make a side argument in the sentence, but main gist is a flame.*
Blung- Yup, I'm very close minded. I just want an elite race like you do and nothing else. And I don't think S3 is really all about AD&D, paladin allow to group with anti, necro etc. I have no knowledge about AD&D stuff and I don't really care. Common sense tell me all you really care about is A Superior Race, you want the cake and eat it too (grey elf warrior - xtra attacks do to high dex and now more hp?) sure why not, give them the ability to wield 3 weapons at the same time too while your at it. I can see u really trying to help the god balance the race/mud out.
*Honest response to being flamed, with very minor flaming back. Suggesting that you would like Elves to be best casters as well as warriors on par with other races. Is that what you want? Probably not, but then from your arguments it is a fair reading... since they do make the best int casters (though I understand that's somewhat suspect now).*
Malacar- Yeah, sure dude. Get your head outta yer butt, Blung.
You turn everything into this good/evil debate. My comments were merely about something I noticed. Incase you hadn't noticed, I play an enchanter. I don't play a warrior, and I'm not so fearful of my precious trolls/ogres that I lash out at everything. The gods made the evil races' tanks rock[EDIT: I agree with this, and it's not a complaint]. Stop trying to make this out to sound like all everyone wants is 'their class/race to be superior'. Take comments as ideas and criticisms, and instead of just lashing out blindly, give good, solid ideas and reasons why you don't think X, Y, or Z, would work.
I'm so damn sick and tired of seeing folks making comments based out of jealousy or mashing this good versus evil thing into it. Because, simply stated, that's exactly what you're doing, and it's old, and it's childish.
*Direct, unabridged flame to start with. Then, you jump to good/evil race which he didn't even say in his comments (I copied his entire post on the last one). So uh, you set up a straw argument for yourself to knock down. More flamish behavior.*
Blung- First of all, "Mal - I play and enchanter." Which tell me your clueless about warrior stuff. Secondly, most of us would like to hear comments from other warriors. You like to stick your noise in every post, like you stated in another post, nothing to do at work. Its your quote, unquote input. I don't make it between good or evil like your narrow minded think it is. I'm just throwing different warrior races up there to compare with since your so clueless about them. Grey Elf make decent warrior, make superior ranger. If you increase Grey elf hp 100 more, let say 500 compare to dwarf/barb/troll/ogre of 720. Elf would make a better race warrior then those cuzz of the xtra attacks, dodge/parry/shieldblock skills. 500+vits+2 hp rings bring it up around 800. My advice to you is leave the comments to other warrior like Thruar/Dhurn/Cherzra/Turg just to name a few.
So who the one that bullshiting and don't know crap about warrior?
This one is for you Mal - Its better to be a fool then open your mouth and prove it.
Thanks you, drive thrus.
*Yup. Big ol' flame. Basically because you had already flamed him hard at least once, possibly more, depending on your viewpoint. And also set up your strawman argument, which of course he was going to point out.*
(All of the text contained in * is mine).
That's about where I chimed in (there were a couple of other posts you guys made, which didn't address each other, so I didn't bother including them). Keep in mind that when I posted, I had just read through the entire thread, since it was supposedly on a subject that was interesting to me. I got to read all the garbage going back and forth, and the 2 or 3 posts of yours thanking people for saying not to flame, since you *obviously* would never flame anyone.
Actually, I've read your comments on several other threads, and usually I don't see a problem with them. But it seems obvious on this thread you took offense to someone saying you hadn't thought something through.
Okay, just did a good amount of testing using a grey warrior with heroic dex over about 200 rounds of combat. I got an extra attack about once every 25 rounds. This is obviously far less than a halfling warrior getting an extra attack almost every other round.
Rags: I don't think any race really qualifies for best ranger. Greys have the dex, agility, and int bonuses, but strength and constitution are pretty damn important too. While grey strength isn't horrible, constitution is. While that could be remedied with an amey or other +hp gear, that's one less spot for dam eq. And if the low level tests I did are any indication of how often the extra attack kicks in at high levels, then it's highly questionable whether or not its worth losing about 100 hit points for. All of this means that the race choices for rangers are definately a lot more balanced than they were before, a good thing imo.
Rags: I don't think any race really qualifies for best ranger. Greys have the dex, agility, and int bonuses, but strength and constitution are pretty damn important too. While grey strength isn't horrible, constitution is. While that could be remedied with an amey or other +hp gear, that's one less spot for dam eq. And if the low level tests I did are any indication of how often the extra attack kicks in at high levels, then it's highly questionable whether or not its worth losing about 100 hit points for. All of this means that the race choices for rangers are definately a lot more balanced than they were before, a good thing imo.
If you think Greys are the bomb...just go read Tanras latest log..mobs casted, the elves died well before all the other folks 
Personally I almost wish elves didn't get the upgrade now, some of us played elves for the sake of rp, and being a 'true elf', now its going to be an island of folks looking for an extra attack
Bah,
Belle
Personally I almost wish elves didn't get the upgrade now, some of us played elves for the sake of rp, and being a 'true elf', now its going to be an island of folks looking for an extra attack
Bah,
Belle
This is ridiculous.
Malacar made a post offering a SUGGESTION on what to do, and he is being flamed for this?
This board is labeled feedback. Why the hell are you flaming a guy for giving feedback on the feedback board?
Are you really so insecure in your own class/race that an elven warrior may have 500 hps naked?
No one ever said yuan-ti warriors shouldn't get anything more. As a matter of fact, no one brought up yuan-ti until Blung did. If you feel yuan-ti should get more if a grey does, then by all means, say it.
Personally, I'll take a higher percentage crit chance over a chance to get an extra attack every once in a while. And yes, I have played a warrior before.
I wouldn't mind seeing elven warriors around more, I don't feel they should get innate spell resistance, though.
Maybe make it more difficult for a grey elf to bash, and give him more hit points. Who knows. Just a _suggestion_.
Jurdex
Malacar made a post offering a SUGGESTION on what to do, and he is being flamed for this?
This board is labeled feedback. Why the hell are you flaming a guy for giving feedback on the feedback board?
Are you really so insecure in your own class/race that an elven warrior may have 500 hps naked?
No one ever said yuan-ti warriors shouldn't get anything more. As a matter of fact, no one brought up yuan-ti until Blung did. If you feel yuan-ti should get more if a grey does, then by all means, say it.
Personally, I'll take a higher percentage crit chance over a chance to get an extra attack every once in a while. And yes, I have played a warrior before.
I wouldn't mind seeing elven warriors around more, I don't feel they should get innate spell resistance, though.
Maybe make it more difficult for a grey elf to bash, and give him more hit points. Who knows. Just a _suggestion_.
Jurdex
Kiloppile, let me ask you a simple question...
Is this your board? No. Stop policing it.
It seems that you took offense to attacks that had nothing to do to you. For that, I am truly sorry. Not for what I said, but for the simple fact that it was said in public.
My first remark, where I stated he was close minded... That was not, and still remains in my mind, and most others I've spoken to, not a flame. He's proven himself to be incapable of expressing even mildly coherent thoughts at any time. That was the nicest way possible to say that.
( Take this as a flame if you want, but you're attacking me because I retaliated to an ignorant and very offensive post. )
It was a flamewar after that, you've got me there. I never claimed I was innocent of that. However, not only did I not start this, I won't bother to finish it. Frankly, responding to his posts is pointless because he just doesn't get it. After reading yours, I can kind of see your point with me, but I never claimed I was innocent of flaming. Just innocent in the case that I did not start this(My sig said otherwise, but I corrected that. Had I known it would pop up there, I would have disabled it. If you meant that, then again, you have me.). But that's merely my interpretation. If you feel that was a flame... Well that's your choice, but it wasn't. What he posted after that was neither warranted, instigated, or deserved by myself.
So if you took that as my saying that I was totally innocent... You are correct, I am not. But that was never my intent or statement.
Furthermore, you seem to have ignored the simple statement I made in my one post, I won't bother quoting it since you seem so good at it... But I have had a warrior to 46, and 48, a dwarf and a barbarian, prior to this alpha. I know -exactly- why -I- said what I said about Grey Elves. What I -didn't- know, was other folks opinions, thus why I posted this godforsaken topic in the first place to get some feedback of my own.
I've been on this mud for a very long time. You seem to be giving me a ton of grief based on your assumption I haven't played or used a majority of these classes(with the flaming aspect aside). Infact, I merely stated I had never had the opportunity to play a HALFLING WARRIOR. A -very- precise class/race combination. Never a place did I mention I hadn't played other classes. Feel free to flame all you want, but get your facts straight.
"Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement."
*Explain to me how this is a flame. I didn't call him a name. I didn't attack him. I made a statement of FACT. Go read his other posts, and you'll see it's the truth. I'm not the only one by a longshot that thinks this, either, so please elaborate. It was an open invitation to post something intelligible instead of a 2 line post stating how stupid someone is. He seemed to ignore that, and came back with a blatant attack on me.
Now, let's quote you:
1. You can tell, very easily, whether or not a race gets more hp "at higher levels" by simply rolling up one of each race with perfect con. There's no mysterious modifier along the way. Halflings have 2 more hps/level than grey elves.
* Wrong. It's a random number between a certain set of numbers(IE - 8-12 for Grey Elves). No warrior has the exact same hit points. Read God posts on Con modifiers to hit points, they've stated it works differently now if I am not mistaken.
2. The only section of this thread that I have not read completely is the stuff after my post (don't have time today). I don't believe, from reading the posts, that you have any place saying blung is flaming you and that you are an angel. I did not say that Blung never did anything wrong, just that you had done so, and then feigned ignorance of that fact.
*Then READ it all before coming back at me. I never feigned ignorance. I never said I was an angel. I see nowhere I stated, or implied to either. My 'thank you' was to Mask, for him asking for the flames to stop. I wanted to get back on topic, but apparently this won't be allowed to happen now.
3. Getting back to 1, if you're gonna ask questions like #1 here, you are gonna be considered ignorant, at least by people who have played/play-tested warriors. You don't seem to understand game mechanics, which is exactly the point.
*You don't seem to understand them either. Nor do you read things fully. As stated above, it was a question based entirely on a Halfling. I have not had the chance to level a Halfling Warrior past level 25, so I do not what kind of hit points they get per level at that point. Starting hit points are misleading. It's no longer the way it was before. I believe Uthgar stated that in another thread.
1. Grey elves are one of 3 races who have access to a warrior sub-class (Ranger). Grey elves are not classicly "warriors", but *Rangers*. And Greys are far and away the best rangers.
*Wrong. They both have great aspects, and disadvantages. I played a ranger for 4 years.
2. Hit points aren't the be all and end all of warriors. If they were, no one would ever bother playing anything other than the core races (troll/ogre, dwarf/barb). As it is, you're not gonna see alot of deviation.
* PCs are main tanks now. And as stated by the gods, they will be from here on out. A warrior is useless without a good deal of hit points, because of the way stones/dragonscales work now. I've read comments and spoken to a few of the previously high level tanks, and they concur on this, that hit points will be much more important.
3. The primary reason i can think of that one would want to be a grey elf, gnome, halfling, drow, yuan-ti warrior has nothing to do with game-balance, but has to do with role-playing. Sure, some people enjoy being a dumb ogre, but others might enjoy being a smart ass gnome or a cute halfling.
* Partially correct, and this one is strictly my opinion. Role-playing a warrior is all well and good, but this is a MUD. Multi-User-Dungeon. Meaning lots of combat. If things weren't meant to be balanced between races, why are they working on this? If this was supposed to be based so heavily on role-play, why isn't it a MUSH? Or a MUSE? Or a MUX? Because it's about fighting. That's what appeals to people, and what always will about a MUD. Some role-play, most do not. I have the utmost respect for those that play for the role-play aspect, simply because they are a minority, and they must face pressure to break character at every turn.
"It's mind-boggling to me that people would be upset that a Grey Elf can't be a top-notch warrior, when they *can* be the best Ranger, and that's quite obviously a class that plays to Elven strengths/characteristics. Certainly in a role-playing sense."
* Where did I, or anyone else that contributed in a positive way in this thread, ever state that Grey's were supposed to be top notch? They didn't. That was Blung's statement. Let me insert a quote from myself here:
[/Begin Quote]
The class itself is well balanced. About the only thing I noticed is that Grey elf Warriors(no laughing dangit!) have TOO few hit points now. Yes, they should have less, but a barb warrior at 50 has what, 700ish hps, right?
Grey Elf has 400... I think it needs a bump by 50-75-100 or so.. 500 or thereabouts wouldn't be heinously unbalancing imho. And it would make them more viable. I've noticed in my testing(and I've logged quite a few hours doing this, though by no means as much as some), that no grey elf warriors were taken, and preference was given to barbs and dwarves. I'd like to see grey elves be more viable, but I fear this won't happen without a small hit point boost.
[/End Quote]
That's my initial post. Where does it say they must be the best? According to my eyes, I expressly stated they shouldn't have as many as a barbarian or a dwarf, or even a troll or ogre. In that respect you are correct. They should -NOT- be top notch. And I never want them to be, because there would be a loophole in the process of balance somewhere.
Please email me regarding this from now on, so the others do not get spammed with this drivel. Yours isn't listed, though I have no idea why. If you are prepared to attack others for their posts and arguements with others, you should be prepared to speak with them in a more private forum, like email. This wasn't said, any of it, with the intent as an attack. If you feel it is, email me. I'd be more than happy to speak with you about it.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Is this your board? No. Stop policing it.
It seems that you took offense to attacks that had nothing to do to you. For that, I am truly sorry. Not for what I said, but for the simple fact that it was said in public.
My first remark, where I stated he was close minded... That was not, and still remains in my mind, and most others I've spoken to, not a flame. He's proven himself to be incapable of expressing even mildly coherent thoughts at any time. That was the nicest way possible to say that.
( Take this as a flame if you want, but you're attacking me because I retaliated to an ignorant and very offensive post. )
It was a flamewar after that, you've got me there. I never claimed I was innocent of that. However, not only did I not start this, I won't bother to finish it. Frankly, responding to his posts is pointless because he just doesn't get it. After reading yours, I can kind of see your point with me, but I never claimed I was innocent of flaming. Just innocent in the case that I did not start this(My sig said otherwise, but I corrected that. Had I known it would pop up there, I would have disabled it. If you meant that, then again, you have me.). But that's merely my interpretation. If you feel that was a flame... Well that's your choice, but it wasn't. What he posted after that was neither warranted, instigated, or deserved by myself.
So if you took that as my saying that I was totally innocent... You are correct, I am not. But that was never my intent or statement.
Furthermore, you seem to have ignored the simple statement I made in my one post, I won't bother quoting it since you seem so good at it... But I have had a warrior to 46, and 48, a dwarf and a barbarian, prior to this alpha. I know -exactly- why -I- said what I said about Grey Elves. What I -didn't- know, was other folks opinions, thus why I posted this godforsaken topic in the first place to get some feedback of my own.
I've been on this mud for a very long time. You seem to be giving me a ton of grief based on your assumption I haven't played or used a majority of these classes(with the flaming aspect aside). Infact, I merely stated I had never had the opportunity to play a HALFLING WARRIOR. A -very- precise class/race combination. Never a place did I mention I hadn't played other classes. Feel free to flame all you want, but get your facts straight.
"Blung, you have an awfully closed mind, and offer no concrete, or even opinionated evidence to support your disagreement."
*Explain to me how this is a flame. I didn't call him a name. I didn't attack him. I made a statement of FACT. Go read his other posts, and you'll see it's the truth. I'm not the only one by a longshot that thinks this, either, so please elaborate. It was an open invitation to post something intelligible instead of a 2 line post stating how stupid someone is. He seemed to ignore that, and came back with a blatant attack on me.
Now, let's quote you:
1. You can tell, very easily, whether or not a race gets more hp "at higher levels" by simply rolling up one of each race with perfect con. There's no mysterious modifier along the way. Halflings have 2 more hps/level than grey elves.
* Wrong. It's a random number between a certain set of numbers(IE - 8-12 for Grey Elves). No warrior has the exact same hit points. Read God posts on Con modifiers to hit points, they've stated it works differently now if I am not mistaken.
2. The only section of this thread that I have not read completely is the stuff after my post (don't have time today). I don't believe, from reading the posts, that you have any place saying blung is flaming you and that you are an angel. I did not say that Blung never did anything wrong, just that you had done so, and then feigned ignorance of that fact.
*Then READ it all before coming back at me. I never feigned ignorance. I never said I was an angel. I see nowhere I stated, or implied to either. My 'thank you' was to Mask, for him asking for the flames to stop. I wanted to get back on topic, but apparently this won't be allowed to happen now.
3. Getting back to 1, if you're gonna ask questions like #1 here, you are gonna be considered ignorant, at least by people who have played/play-tested warriors. You don't seem to understand game mechanics, which is exactly the point.
*You don't seem to understand them either. Nor do you read things fully. As stated above, it was a question based entirely on a Halfling. I have not had the chance to level a Halfling Warrior past level 25, so I do not what kind of hit points they get per level at that point. Starting hit points are misleading. It's no longer the way it was before. I believe Uthgar stated that in another thread.
1. Grey elves are one of 3 races who have access to a warrior sub-class (Ranger). Grey elves are not classicly "warriors", but *Rangers*. And Greys are far and away the best rangers.
*Wrong. They both have great aspects, and disadvantages. I played a ranger for 4 years.
2. Hit points aren't the be all and end all of warriors. If they were, no one would ever bother playing anything other than the core races (troll/ogre, dwarf/barb). As it is, you're not gonna see alot of deviation.
* PCs are main tanks now. And as stated by the gods, they will be from here on out. A warrior is useless without a good deal of hit points, because of the way stones/dragonscales work now. I've read comments and spoken to a few of the previously high level tanks, and they concur on this, that hit points will be much more important.
3. The primary reason i can think of that one would want to be a grey elf, gnome, halfling, drow, yuan-ti warrior has nothing to do with game-balance, but has to do with role-playing. Sure, some people enjoy being a dumb ogre, but others might enjoy being a smart ass gnome or a cute halfling.
* Partially correct, and this one is strictly my opinion. Role-playing a warrior is all well and good, but this is a MUD. Multi-User-Dungeon. Meaning lots of combat. If things weren't meant to be balanced between races, why are they working on this? If this was supposed to be based so heavily on role-play, why isn't it a MUSH? Or a MUSE? Or a MUX? Because it's about fighting. That's what appeals to people, and what always will about a MUD. Some role-play, most do not. I have the utmost respect for those that play for the role-play aspect, simply because they are a minority, and they must face pressure to break character at every turn.
"It's mind-boggling to me that people would be upset that a Grey Elf can't be a top-notch warrior, when they *can* be the best Ranger, and that's quite obviously a class that plays to Elven strengths/characteristics. Certainly in a role-playing sense."
* Where did I, or anyone else that contributed in a positive way in this thread, ever state that Grey's were supposed to be top notch? They didn't. That was Blung's statement. Let me insert a quote from myself here:
[/Begin Quote]
The class itself is well balanced. About the only thing I noticed is that Grey elf Warriors(no laughing dangit!) have TOO few hit points now. Yes, they should have less, but a barb warrior at 50 has what, 700ish hps, right?
Grey Elf has 400... I think it needs a bump by 50-75-100 or so.. 500 or thereabouts wouldn't be heinously unbalancing imho. And it would make them more viable. I've noticed in my testing(and I've logged quite a few hours doing this, though by no means as much as some), that no grey elf warriors were taken, and preference was given to barbs and dwarves. I'd like to see grey elves be more viable, but I fear this won't happen without a small hit point boost.
[/End Quote]
That's my initial post. Where does it say they must be the best? According to my eyes, I expressly stated they shouldn't have as many as a barbarian or a dwarf, or even a troll or ogre. In that respect you are correct. They should -NOT- be top notch. And I never want them to be, because there would be a loophole in the process of balance somewhere.
Please email me regarding this from now on, so the others do not get spammed with this drivel. Yours isn't listed, though I have no idea why. If you are prepared to attack others for their posts and arguements with others, you should be prepared to speak with them in a more private forum, like email. This wasn't said, any of it, with the intent as an attack. If you feel it is, email me. I'd be more than happy to speak with you about it.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Malacar, here's something ON topic for once:
1. Your hit points, up through 25th level (or is it 24, can't remember) are a random number (let's say 1-8 for instance) plus your con notch, plus a modifier for your race separate from the con notch. (Hence they could add a hp to ogres without affecting their con).
2. Your hit points after 25 are a set number, plus these two previously stated numbers.
That's actually all there is to it.
The reason people think they're getting "more" hp/level with diff races (which they are, technically) is because the number changes by more if you are a troll or an ogre, for instance, than if you're an elf. The underlying random number is on the same scale (or set number after 25), but the modifiers are different.
Example: Let's say, hypothetically, that Ogres get +3 hp/level from their race, and they get +5hp/level from top con notch (total guess, of course). If an elf gets 0 hp/level from race and +2 hp/level from con notch, then here's how it might look:
1-25 (assuming d8) ogre would get anywhere from 9-16 hp/level (obviously my numbers are wrong, but the idea is right... i think i've gotten over 18 in a level... so you'd have to do a LOT of testing to figure this out). In those same levels an elf would get 3-10. Mind you, if the ogre was 2 notches away from his top con notch it would appear he was getting "only" 7-14/level... but as soon as he puts on con gear it fixes that.
From 26 on let's guess that you get 3 hp/level for the level, giving the ogre 11/level while the elf gets 5. Again, these are probably way off, but it's the general idea.... plug whatever numbers you think are right for the random number and the race mods.
Now, before 25, sure, it's possible to get really unlucky on the random roll... but then you get 24 rolls (1st level seems to be a fixed amount) to even out the odds.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 04-25-2001).]
1. Your hit points, up through 25th level (or is it 24, can't remember) are a random number (let's say 1-8 for instance) plus your con notch, plus a modifier for your race separate from the con notch. (Hence they could add a hp to ogres without affecting their con).
2. Your hit points after 25 are a set number, plus these two previously stated numbers.
That's actually all there is to it.
The reason people think they're getting "more" hp/level with diff races (which they are, technically) is because the number changes by more if you are a troll or an ogre, for instance, than if you're an elf. The underlying random number is on the same scale (or set number after 25), but the modifiers are different.
Example: Let's say, hypothetically, that Ogres get +3 hp/level from their race, and they get +5hp/level from top con notch (total guess, of course). If an elf gets 0 hp/level from race and +2 hp/level from con notch, then here's how it might look:
1-25 (assuming d8) ogre would get anywhere from 9-16 hp/level (obviously my numbers are wrong, but the idea is right... i think i've gotten over 18 in a level... so you'd have to do a LOT of testing to figure this out). In those same levels an elf would get 3-10. Mind you, if the ogre was 2 notches away from his top con notch it would appear he was getting "only" 7-14/level... but as soon as he puts on con gear it fixes that.
From 26 on let's guess that you get 3 hp/level for the level, giving the ogre 11/level while the elf gets 5. Again, these are probably way off, but it's the general idea.... plug whatever numbers you think are right for the random number and the race mods.
Now, before 25, sure, it's possible to get really unlucky on the random roll... but then you get 24 rolls (1st level seems to be a fixed amount) to even out the odds.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 04-25-2001).]
*nod* Kiloppile. I know that. That was the point of my post(though you said it better than I).
What I did not know, was what hp range Halflings get, and what they get after 25. Has anyone done any kind of testing to find out what their range is 1-25, and what the number is 26+?
Grey elves get 8-12 hps from levels 1-25, and (I believe) 3 or 4 hp thereafter. Perhaps 5. Unfortunately my notes are at work, so going by memory.
What boggles me, is that Elves would have less hps than Halflings. They should be the same, in my opinion. I think their Dex scores are comparable... If someone's done any kind of testing with halflings, I'd love to hear what your observations are.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
What I did not know, was what hp range Halflings get, and what they get after 25. Has anyone done any kind of testing to find out what their range is 1-25, and what the number is 26+?
Grey elves get 8-12 hps from levels 1-25, and (I believe) 3 or 4 hp thereafter. Perhaps 5. Unfortunately my notes are at work, so going by memory.
What boggles me, is that Elves would have less hps than Halflings. They should be the same, in my opinion. I think their Dex scores are comparable... If someone's done any kind of testing with halflings, I'd love to hear what your observations are.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Grey elves get 6-12 hp from levels 1 through 25 with max con notch.
6 hp thereafter with max con notch.
ie. perfect hp would be 450.
Average HP is around 420 ish
Faedril at level 48 has 399 - +12 from 2 more levels gives 411 at level 50.
Halflings do get more HP.
Halflings have much better dex.
ie. they get extra attacks every other round.
(this is hear-say off of reading posts)
greys get them 16% with master skills and 100 dex.
Suggestion to add 1 hp to base grey warrior roll wouldn't hurt. 50 hp isn't alot or unbalancing.
Has anyone tried gnome warriors?
6 hp thereafter with max con notch.
ie. perfect hp would be 450.
Average HP is around 420 ish
Faedril at level 48 has 399 - +12 from 2 more levels gives 411 at level 50.
Halflings do get more HP.
Halflings have much better dex.
ie. they get extra attacks every other round.
(this is hear-say off of reading posts)
greys get them 16% with master skills and 100 dex.
Suggestion to add 1 hp to base grey warrior roll wouldn't hurt. 50 hp isn't alot or unbalancing.
Has anyone tried gnome warriors?
A counter suggestion on elves would be to not increase the racial hp's, but to slightly raise their con to get one more notch for fighter styles (at a very high con).
I think the reason I wouldn't necessarily want to raise racial hp's is because it would affect elven casters... and I really don't see a reason to do that, honestly (at least not *help* them).
BTW, halflings appear to have identical hp's to human warriors (i.e. paladins, mostly).
Also, I believe halflings get 2 more hp per level (based on testing I've done) than elves, so 26+ would be 8 hp/level as opposed to the 6 hp/level for elven warriors.
Since the top con notches are only available to warrior type classes, adjusting elven con just slightly would have a negligable effect on their casters (well ok, they might need slightly less con to hit their top notch, but that's a minor change) while helping warriors... but since this would also assumedly affect rangers, i'm not so sure... heh
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 04-25-2001).]
I think the reason I wouldn't necessarily want to raise racial hp's is because it would affect elven casters... and I really don't see a reason to do that, honestly (at least not *help* them).
BTW, halflings appear to have identical hp's to human warriors (i.e. paladins, mostly).
Also, I believe halflings get 2 more hp per level (based on testing I've done) than elves, so 26+ would be 8 hp/level as opposed to the 6 hp/level for elven warriors.
Since the top con notches are only available to warrior type classes, adjusting elven con just slightly would have a negligable effect on their casters (well ok, they might need slightly less con to hit their top notch, but that's a minor change) while helping warriors... but since this would also assumedly affect rangers, i'm not so sure... heh
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 04-25-2001).]
I have to agree with Kiloppile on this one. Giving Elven warriors a bonus versus a racial bonus would make the most sense. Elven casters should have low hit points. they sacrificed their bodies for study time with books or with their god. It makes sense.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
As I've said before in this thread, I also think that bumping up the elf con score would be a good way to do things. Since casters don't benefit from the higher con scores in a race, it would only benefit the elf warrior types.
Faedril, how many rounds of combat did you do testing over to come up with the 16% for extra attacks? I'm curious since the results I got varied from what another elf got. Since it's a percent chance of extra attack though, varied numbers do make sense. Just wondering where yours came from
Malacar, it actually does make sense for elves to have less hit points than halflings. Halflings are pretty hardy for their size (read, they eat a lot, they get big) while elves are frail for their size. However, elf muscles are more dense than those of humans so elf strength isn't as bad as their constitution.
Kilopile, upgrading grey elf ranger hps wouldn't be unbalancing. Remember, that extra attack is pretty damn rare and in no ways dependable like a halfling's. Heck, it's not even easy to track for testing. Just look at my numbers compared to Faedril's. Another elf I know has gotten numbers a bit different from both of us too. Plus grey elf strength means that they won't be able to dual wield some of the heavier secondaries halfelves can (who in turn won't be able to dual some of the things that humans can), specifically secondaries that will be able to proc offhand. Despite what you might think, greys are not uberrangers in their current state (you tend to die to areas before that extra attack even has a chance to kick in ) nor would they be with a hitpoint boost with the gods setting some of the dual proc weapons to be out of grey elf dual weight. That could be overcome with +max str items, but a halfelf could do the same to dual stuff that normally only a human would. Anyway, I've rambled on the subject long enough for now. Basically, none of the races available to be rangers are going to be the optimal race for the class, and I like it that way
Faedril, how many rounds of combat did you do testing over to come up with the 16% for extra attacks? I'm curious since the results I got varied from what another elf got. Since it's a percent chance of extra attack though, varied numbers do make sense. Just wondering where yours came from
Malacar, it actually does make sense for elves to have less hit points than halflings. Halflings are pretty hardy for their size (read, they eat a lot, they get big
) while elves are frail for their size. However, elf muscles are more dense than those of humans so elf strength isn't as bad as their constitution.Kilopile, upgrading grey elf ranger hps wouldn't be unbalancing. Remember, that extra attack is pretty damn rare and in no ways dependable like a halfling's. Heck, it's not even easy to track for testing
. Just look at my numbers compared to Faedril's. Another elf I know has gotten numbers a bit different from both of us too. Plus grey elf strength means that they won't be able to dual wield some of the heavier secondaries halfelves can (who in turn won't be able to dual some of the things that humans can), specifically secondaries that will be able to proc offhand. Despite what you might think, greys are not uberrangers in their current state (you tend to die to areas before that extra attack even has a chance to kick in ) nor would they be with a hitpoint boost with the gods setting some of the dual proc weapons to be out of grey elf dual weight. That could be overcome with +max str items, but a halfelf could do the same to dual stuff that normally only a human would. Anyway, I've rambled on the subject long enough for now. Basically, none of the races available to be rangers are going to be the optimal race for the class, and I like it that way Trel: I realize that, but was speaking mainly from a balance perspective. Shooting from the hip.. Halflings also have size in their disfavor. For instance, a giant sized creature, IF it hits(it should be more difficult for them to), they should take more damage, because they'd get hit over a larger surface area. Whereas an elf, IF hit, would possibly take slightly less, as he may have an arm or leg that wasn't squished. Obviously this isn't a perfect example, but...
Plus, Elves have been studying the warrior arts and bladesinging for hundreds of years. Halflings, in general are lazy, and don't have formalized elite armies, at least none that I have heard of. So if they exist, they would probably be pretty rare. Thus they may have a large body, but constitution is a measure of weight-to-bodyfat. They'd have a bad ratio because they do enjoy the simpler things and tend to overeat. Whereas elves are almost entirely not on the pudgey side, and are lean.
Just my perspective I guess, but it seems to be a majority opinion.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Plus, Elves have been studying the warrior arts and bladesinging for hundreds of years. Halflings, in general are lazy, and don't have formalized elite armies, at least none that I have heard of. So if they exist, they would probably be pretty rare. Thus they may have a large body, but constitution is a measure of weight-to-bodyfat. They'd have a bad ratio because they do enjoy the simpler things and tend to overeat. Whereas elves are almost entirely not on the pudgey side, and are lean.
Just my perspective I guess, but it seems to be a majority opinion.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
Malacar: I'm not entirely sure about this, but I was under the impression that halflings are kinda like dwarves, though not as extreme, in having good constitution for their size. IE, I believe they got some of the saving throws vs. poison bonuses dwarves got based off of constitution. I'm not sure though, since I don't have my 2nd edition players handbooks with me and 3E has changed a number of racial modifiers. Maybe I'm thinking gnomes though, never really paid much attention to the short races, probably cause I don't see them
I could be wrong, but:
Tre, yur thinking of gnomes. In AD&D halflings are classically portrayed as the shortest, weakest PC race that has good dex and excels at 3 things: thievery (due to their dex and innocent appearance), throwing rocks and eating. On the other hand, Gnomes are the long-nosed, gem loving cousins of dwarves. It's interesting to note that in 3E, I believe gnomes get the same racial modifiers as dorfs (-dex, +con is it??). In 2ed, the modifiers were -wis +int, which focused on the absent-minded professor (i.e tinker gnomes) stereotype. That was great for illusionist/thieves, imho. Not so anymore. Anyhow, IMHO that was one of many stupid changes in 3E, because it essentially makes gnomes and dorfs the same (more so than a sorcerer and a mage...another stupid change).
Izzy
Tre, yur thinking of gnomes. In AD&D halflings are classically portrayed as the shortest, weakest PC race that has good dex and excels at 3 things: thievery (due to their dex and innocent appearance), throwing rocks and eating. On the other hand, Gnomes are the long-nosed, gem loving cousins of dwarves. It's interesting to note that in 3E, I believe gnomes get the same racial modifiers as dorfs (-dex, +con is it??). In 2ed, the modifiers were -wis +int, which focused on the absent-minded professor (i.e tinker gnomes) stereotype. That was great for illusionist/thieves, imho. Not so anymore. Anyhow, IMHO that was one of many stupid changes in 3E, because it essentially makes gnomes and dorfs the same (more so than a sorcerer and a mage...another stupid change).
Izzy
Aye, Trel. In 2nd edition, they gave halflings bonuses to saves similar to dwarves. The problem with that... Is that it made no sense. I love the new halflings in 3rd edition, they make more sense and are better balanced. The 'hobbit' style is good for some gamers, but not myself. It just never fit my mental image of 'halfling'.
Not to say that the old one was bad, just not to my tastes.
Oh, and Dwarves got -1charisma +1constitution in 2E, and -2 charisma +2constiution in 3E. Gnomes get -2strength, +2con. I agree, kinda goofy.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-26-2001).]
Not to say that the old one was bad, just not to my tastes.
Oh, and Dwarves got -1charisma +1constitution in 2E, and -2 charisma +2constiution in 3E. Gnomes get -2strength, +2con. I agree, kinda goofy.
------------------
Malacar - French kissin midgets, and damn proud of it. Oh yeah... My comments can offend you now, I don't care anymore. Have a day.
[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 04-26-2001).]
The percentage i got was spilled by a coder . I've verified over a couple days worth of playing. Greys get an extra attack on average less that once every five rounds.
As for max con items. I'd agree this would fix it... except, from my previous two years playing i never managed to get one of the three items i've known available. Also, kost cloak can be replaced by actual hp cloak, or ac and hitroll. Amy belt - just read impossible to get. Enameled plate... bottom line, was never patient enough to chase the quest as its *long*. Shrug.
. I've verified over a couple days worth of playing. Greys get an extra attack on average less that once every five rounds.As for max con items. I'd agree this would fix it... except, from my previous two years playing i never managed to get one of the three items i've known available. Also, kost cloak can be replaced by actual hp cloak, or ac and hitroll. Amy belt - just read impossible to get. Enameled plate... bottom line, was never patient enough to chase the quest as its *long*. Shrug.
I think there is mybe a selution in between. Elves should be prity desent in "resisting" spells. Not like magic resitance but more like saves (reflexes, illusions, etc).
Mybe a rcial svSpell would be a selution. Give Grey Elves (for argument sake) a -2svSpell basicly. This way they still got low hitpoints, but are less effected by area spells, etc. So live longer in the points that elves should be a bit better then humans and halflings.
When running a zone, you sweeter got 50 more hp on top of your 400hp or you want thoes -2svSpell extra? I would take the 2 points of save.
greetings,
Silvea alias Almile
Mybe a rcial svSpell would be a selution. Give Grey Elves (for argument sake) a -2svSpell basicly. This way they still got low hitpoints, but are less effected by area spells, etc. So live longer in the points that elves should be a bit better then humans and halflings.
When running a zone, you sweeter got 50 more hp on top of your 400hp or you want thoes -2svSpell extra? I would take the 2 points of save.
greetings,
Silvea alias Almile
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Faedril:
<B>The percentage i got was spilled by a coder. I've verified over a couple days worth of playing. Greys get an extra attack on average less that once every five rounds.
As for max con items. I'd agree this would fix it... except, from my previous two years playing i never managed to get one of the three items i've known available. Also, kost cloak can be replaced by actual hp cloak, or ac and hitroll. Amy belt - just read impossible to get. Enameled plate... bottom line, was never patient enough to chase the quest as its *long*. Shrug.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... well... let's just say you need to pick a different coder to get your info from. 16% at 100 elven dex is incorrect.
Of course the way they got their info might have been from testing, but ya gotta understand that probability is gonna kick in on that.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 05-03-2001).]
<B>The percentage i got was spilled by a coder
. I've verified over a couple days worth of playing. Greys get an extra attack on average less that once every five rounds.As for max con items. I'd agree this would fix it... except, from my previous two years playing i never managed to get one of the three items i've known available. Also, kost cloak can be replaced by actual hp cloak, or ac and hitroll. Amy belt - just read impossible to get. Enameled plate... bottom line, was never patient enough to chase the quest as its *long*. Shrug.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Um... well... let's just say you need to pick a different coder to get your info from. 16% at 100 elven dex is incorrect.
Of course the way they got their info might have been from testing, but ya gotta understand that probability is gonna kick in on that.
[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 05-03-2001).]
Wow, I was hoping to read some information about warriors on these posts, but it's kind of hard to sift through the rest. I for one have really enjoyed playing my barb up to 23 during alpha, and I like the new levels of effectiveness of defensive skills and AC now. Nice job on the new combat mechanics guys!
I have a question for any of you who have played both a barb/dwarf war and a smaller race warrior up to 40+ in alpha. Are the smaller races being limited in shield weights, and is the shieldpunching ability of smaller races noticeably worse as your race gets smaller? After reading a few posts about elves having trouble duel wielding a weight 3 sword, I'm wondering if they are walking around with weight 50 shields and smacking 10 foot tall monsters in the face with them.
Later,
Aruk/Terau
I for one have really enjoyed playing my barb up to 23 during alpha, and I like the new levels of effectiveness of defensive skills and AC now. Nice job on the new combat mechanics guys!I have a question for any of you who have played both a barb/dwarf war and a smaller race warrior up to 40+ in alpha. Are the smaller races being limited in shield weights, and is the shieldpunching ability of smaller races noticeably worse as your race gets smaller? After reading a few posts about elves having trouble duel wielding a weight 3 sword, I'm wondering if they are walking around with weight 50 shields and smacking 10 foot tall monsters in the face with them.
Later,
Aruk/Terau
Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 16 guests