Short summary:
- really bad, mounts flee while not tanking or being hit.
- bad, loss of two hand weapon use.
- bad, loss of all in-combat skills(bash).
- bad, can't pick up items(fumbled weapon) on the floor.
- good, get an extra defensive skill.
only things I have noticed with the skill so far.
Long explanation:
I'm playing an antipal (Onir) this time around and was fooling around with mounted combat. From what I've seen so far it's good but it's got too many bad parts to it to make it worth using at high levels.
Here's the major "bug" that I've seen with it. The horse flees even when it's not being hit! To top that off, you flee with the horse and end up on your back! However if this "fleeing" effect of the mount is due to low skill then I suppose this would be fine.
From what I've seen with this skill it basically seems to add an extra defensive skill to paladin combat, much like shieldblock for warriors. However this comes at the cost of being able to use a two handed weapon in addition to any other normal offensive skill except rescues.
Basically what this skill seems to do is to make paladins a slightly better tank as it forces them to use a one hander so they'll use a shield for more ac.
What would be nice to see in conjunction with this skill is something like charge that would allow antipaladins to do an extra attack during combat, perhaps remove kick and put in charge where it has a chance of bashing while mounted?
As it stands it's sort of like dual wield for warriors, it's something extra they could fool around with but doesn't really add to their "role" as a melee damage class. In fact it takes away from the role as it forces the player away from the strong points of the class(two handers)
[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 04-13-2001).]
Mounted Combat
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Guest
Well we don't really have long lances in the mud. And when those are used from horse back, they're tucked under an arm that's in the position similar to that used to carry a football while running, not used with two hands. Something that the shape of long, piercing weapons like lances and spears let you do.
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Guest
The reason why you can't use 2hers is simple. How are you going to control the horse? You have to be a -great- horseman to control the horse just with your spurs/thighs. Additionally, swinging something like a 2h greatsword is extremely difficult on horseback. You'll probably wind up cutting off the poor horse's head.
Lances are different because 1) they are sorta mounted and 2) they only require one hand. In any event, we don't have lances atm and it's unclear whether we will.
--D2
Lances are different because 1) they are sorta mounted and 2) they only require one hand. In any event, we don't have lances atm and it's unclear whether we will.
--D2
Actually I don't think it's all that hard to control a horse with your knees. Except that the horse has to be trained for it... which high level pally mounts probably would be.
However swinging a two handed sword from atop a horse is a different story.
A big heavy two-handed weapon is great for attacking things right in front of you. But when you are riding a horse the only thing right in front of you is the horse! It would be difficult to turn your entire body enough to swing a two handed weapon to the sides from atop a horse...
Sarvis
However swinging a two handed sword from atop a horse is a different story.
A big heavy two-handed weapon is great for attacking things right in front of you. But when you are riding a horse the only thing right in front of you is the horse! It would be difficult to turn your entire body enough to swing a two handed weapon to the sides from atop a horse...Sarvis
Ok with the new changes with mounted combat, I thought I should put in my 2 cents. Lets start by saying that my skill in mounted combat is good(69).
Well, now that mobs trip my mount, I get thrown off balance very often in the fight. Ultimately, I end up falling from my horse every fight now. And from my experience falling off the horse is something that you want to avoid (ask anyone who's grouped with me). This paired with the inability to mount in combat makes me more of a liability than an asset due to inconsistant tanking.
Mob trip rates seems rather high for the horse. I would assume its hard to trip a horse. However, I may be wrong since I never tried and would never want to.
Also, it may be just me but flank blocking rate does not seem to be much of a function of skill. Early mounted combat either blocks too much or Skilled mounted combat is blocking too little.
And two minor issues involves charging: The horse can charge even though it's lying on the floor after being tripped. And I don't understand the reduction in charge success the costs outweigh the benefits already, it's not like it hits very often and there are bad things that could happen due to the charge lag.
Hmmmmm, after reading my post it seems like the typical whine post. Oh well, feel free to ignore me, just giving my opinion.
Well, now that mobs trip my mount, I get thrown off balance very often in the fight. Ultimately, I end up falling from my horse every fight now. And from my experience falling off the horse is something that you want to avoid (ask anyone who's grouped with me). This paired with the inability to mount in combat makes me more of a liability than an asset due to inconsistant tanking.
Mob trip rates seems rather high for the horse. I would assume its hard to trip a horse. However, I may be wrong since I never tried and would never want to.
Also, it may be just me but flank blocking rate does not seem to be much of a function of skill. Early mounted combat either blocks too much or Skilled mounted combat is blocking too little.
And two minor issues involves charging: The horse can charge even though it's lying on the floor after being tripped. And I don't understand the reduction in charge success the costs outweigh the benefits already, it's not like it hits very often and there are bad things that could happen due to the charge lag.
Hmmmmm, after reading my post it seems like the typical whine post. Oh well, feel free to ignore me, just giving my opinion.
Err... trip a horse? LOL! Sorry... but it's too funny to even think about it happening. Anything large enough to take out 2 legs of a horse (which would be the minimum to make it start to fall) would just bash it to the ground. :shrug: Anything too small to sweep 2 legs would probably just hurt his leg against the horse! Hrm... 'nother thought, it would have to be two legs on one side, because if you tried the either the front or back legs he'd just rear up on the other two for a second and kick you with the hooves you were trying to trip him with.
It's very tough to trip anything with 4 legs and a tail over, they have _amazing_ balance because of... err... having 4 legs and a tail.
Don't believe me? Try to trip a cat or even a dog!
Sarvis
Hrm... there needs to be a confused smiley face... or like a raised eyebrow one for being stunned with disbelief.
It's very tough to trip anything with 4 legs and a tail over, they have _amazing_ balance because of... err... having 4 legs and a tail.
Don't believe me? Try to trip a cat or even a dog!Sarvis
Hrm... there needs to be a confused smiley face... or like a raised eyebrow one for being stunned with disbelief.
Poor pallys. Their mounts went from being really cool, to useful, to funny. I'm sorry but tripping horses (especially a warhorse) or trying to bash a mounted person is just laughable. What chance does an average (human sized) rogue have of even moving one of the four legs of a horse? Even if it did, should that trip it? No, I'd say the thief would then get a boot to the head.
Be nice to em and give em back at least previous incarnation of mounted combat.
Izzy
[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 05-18-2001).]
Be nice to em and give em back at least previous incarnation of mounted combat.
Izzy
[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 05-18-2001).]
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Uthgar
- Staff Member - Coder
- Posts: 141
- Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2001 6:01 am
- Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA
Actually, I've seen horses get tripped up or slip on surfaces an awful lot in my experience riding. In a battle situation, with uncertain ground it could definitely happen. Now, bring in a rogue with, say, a rope, and yes, I think they could trip the horse. It is possible it is succeeding a bit too much, and I will look at it, but if you don't like being tripped, don't fight rogues. Of course, warriors could bash you off the horse, etc. If mounted combat were as reliable as the equivalent warrior skills, we could abolish the warrior class altogether, as no one would play it. Mounted is intended to make the (anti)paladin more viable in a group situation, allowing them to tank _almost_ as well as a warrior and stun _almost_ as well as a warrior. Bring a 2nd warrior to rescue you when you are dismounted and all is well.
Uthgar
Uthgar
A horse slipping on muddy ground maybe, but did it fall all the way down and lay there for a couple minutes? Prolly not... more likely it just stumbled a little then recovered. But that's still different then some jackie chan type guy doing a footsweep at it's legs.
Even with a rope it would require some preparation of the battle filed... ie. a trap where the rope was strung between two trees or something. I'll accept it as a balance issue, but I'll never accept that it's at all realistic.
Even with a rope it would require some preparation of the battle filed... ie. a trap where the rope was strung between two trees or something. I'll accept it as a balance issue, but I'll never accept that it's at all realistic.
Try to imagine the actions the horse is taking in the battle. It is *not* just standing there trying to maintain its balance, it is being directed to block attacks with its flank... it's rotating to allow its rider to get a good whack at the mob... generally it's in constant motion.
In that situation I don't find it hard to imagine at all a horse falling.
In that situation I don't find it hard to imagine at all a horse falling.
Actually the horses wild movement would just make it a lot more likely that anyone who tried to trip him would get stepped on, and a couple hundred pounds of horse landing on your legs is NOT gonna feel good. Think of a horse trying to buck it's rider... would you wanna be anywhere near that? Now would you wanna be on the ground trying to footsweep it? Didn't think so...
Think of a horse trying to buck it's rider... would you wanna be anywhere near that? Now would you wanna be on the ground trying to footsweep it? Didn't think so... Kilo: That kind of implies that there's actually more than one person involved. While I could see a thief being able to trip up a horse if someone ELSE was tanking the mounted combatant, a lone thief doing it just strikes me as odd. I can understand a warrior mob being able to throw you off balance by bashing, but a lone rogue doing it just seems to not make much sense . . .
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
Kilo: That kind of implies that there's actually more than one person involved. While I could see a thief being able to trip up a horse if someone ELSE was tanking the mounted combatant, a lone thief doing it just strikes me as odd. I can understand a warrior mob being able to throw you off balance by bashing, but a lone rogue doing it just seems to not make much sense . . .</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All I have to say about that is how many thieves do you see out there soloing? Or even tanking?
Kilo: That kind of implies that there's actually more than one person involved. While I could see a thief being able to trip up a horse if someone ELSE was tanking the mounted combatant, a lone thief doing it just strikes me as odd. I can understand a warrior mob being able to throw you off balance by bashing, but a lone rogue doing it just seems to not make much sense . . .</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
All I have to say about that is how many thieves do you see out there soloing? Or even tanking?
Kilo: Depends. If I'm the main one on rescue duty, then everyone gets a chance to tank 
It's also not too uncommon to see a solo rogue using a backstab, escape, repeat (or a similar tactic with darts before ranged was taken out for tweaking) doing things.
In any case though, we're talking about rogue mobs which tend to be operating alone. Having a warrior to fall back on is fine for adventuring, but companions can be a hinderance when engaged in more stealthy activities.
It's also not too uncommon to see a solo rogue using a backstab, escape, repeat (or a similar tactic with darts before ranged was taken out for tweaking) doing things.
In any case though, we're talking about rogue mobs which tend to be operating alone. Having a warrior to fall back on is fine for adventuring, but companions can be a hinderance when engaged in more stealthy activities.
I'm playing an AP this incarnation (at least until I get bored and try other classes or get a life!) and I was curious....in the helpfiles on mounted combat it mentions mighty knight blah blah wielding even the mightiest of claymores... Anywho, the point I was trying to make is that everyone says that you can't use 2h weapon while mounted. The help file surely implies that once your skill reaches a certain level that you can use mounted combat while wielding 2 handed. If this is never going to be the case...why add the "flavor text" implying such....just curious. IMHO mounted combat is definitely more of a novelty than a practical measure to make Paly/AP a viable tank. You've stated as much that you want PC tanks and revamped Warriors last incarnation to make them viable. Changes in group strategies, etc. have left pali/ap out in the cold and relegated them to "hitter status" with the bonus of being able to rescue and be "utility tank" for short term only. Not whining, complaining, bitching, etc....just my opinion.
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