Ideas on how to balance shamans

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Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:31 am

Well, just about every other log I've seen had fewer people in the group. In the end yer gonna end up adding warriors, methinks. But that's just my opinion. Could be wrong. Image

Btw, am I correct when I assume that Illithids don't have any kind of damage interaction thing happening to them? If I remember they're basically direct damage, not area, but been awhile since I grouped with one.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-17-2001).]
Nekler BlazingWolf
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Postby Nekler BlazingWolf » Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:10 pm

Ok, now that I see shaman have been "balanced" how about giving us 2 more summons per week (total of 5) and fixing summon totem to actually notch outside of the guild. Was told it was bugged last wipe and never heard anything about it since. I haven't had a chance to use my spirit yet, I'll give more feedback on that later. As for hex.. what is it now? Seems to me it acts the same as faerie fire with the exception of it effecting spellsave.
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Postby Bilraex » Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:52 pm

Ok fine Shamans are too powerful for soloing, so downgrade our spirits a bit and downgrade some of that whopping spell damage that we do. But don't mess with hex. Hex is the one thing that actually makes shamans useful in a group (besides maybe gheal but that doesnt help us shamans below 41).
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Postby Xizz » Mon Jun 18, 2001 2:04 pm

Hahaha, now you people start popping up? After the change has gone thru? I've been saying before that hex was the defining spell that a shaman has and now you guys get to suffer because now you have clerics stealing half your show, making it so that clerics have to cast more in combat just so you would have the same net effect as before when just one shaman had to cast the spell.
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:10 pm

You've been saying that Xizz, but you're wrong. Group heal is the defining spell, if there *is* such a thing.
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Mon Jun 18, 2001 10:48 pm

Haha, and as a shaman with gheal I'm telling you it's not, who would you believe.
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:14 pm

The 3 other shamans I've talked to who were completely unconcerned with the hex change because they were *close* to getting gheal.

And the person I watched for 2 years playing a high-level shaman saving groups' butts in jot, cc, tia, etc, etc, etc...

How many times have you done Jot, CC, Tia, Brass, Planes with a high-level shaman Xizz? And I'm talking the palace... aka Loki and Thrym. Thought not.

That's not to mention the fact that hex wasn't just downgraded. Another feature was added to it. If anything, the Illusionists should be the ones complaining.

I could name for you something that you might find to be totally unfair that the goodies can do that you can't (hasn't been used yet, to my knowledge, because the class in question hasn't gotten high enough). Keep battling the red herrings.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-18-2001).]
Tanolm
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Postby Tanolm » Tue Jun 19, 2001 12:01 am

Having played a 50th shaman for a long time, I would have to say that gheal has always been and still is the defining skill for a shaman. Gheal saved the little people in my groups countless numbers of times in soj2. I didn't even have a 10th circle spell in soj2!!, but i didn't need one cause i had gheal and a massive spirit.

The downgrade to the massive spirits from sojourn2 is balanced by two key spells, which are hex and ancestral shield. I find that the downgrade to hex is extremely dissapointing because I now have two faerie fire spells in different circles. I have yet to fully test ancestral shield, but from the looks of it, it will make shamans a necessity when fighting no-bash, highly silence resistant spellcasters.

[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-18-2001).]
Uthgar
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Postby Uthgar » Tue Jun 19, 2001 2:14 am

Hex still has a spellsave effect, it is just not as strong as before (frankly, it was too good for a single spell). So, it is more than just a second faerie fire.

Uthgar
Jegzed
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Postby Jegzed » Tue Jun 19, 2001 5:53 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kiloppile:
<B>How many times have you done Jot, CC, Tia, Brass, Planes with a high-level shaman Xizz? And I'm talking the palace... aka Loki and Thrym. Thought not.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*rofl* You do realise that you manage to look more stupid that normal with that statement. Do you have ANY clue of who Xizz was on Toril and Soj2?

/Jegzed
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Tue Jun 19, 2001 9:43 am

Nope. I assume from your statement that he was a high-level shaman?

If not, you need to read much more carefully.

[This message has been edited by Kiloppile (edited 06-19-2001).]
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Tue Jun 19, 2001 12:34 pm

Please note your own wording, you said "with" a high level shaman, which in the common vernacular does not imply that the person you're referring to actually is a shaman.

No, I wasn't a shaman those wipes, however I've done them enough times without shamans to know that gheal isn't all that necessary when your group leader and group members knows what they're doing. I've been in groups that had multiple mobs walk in, and not just the gate house, and have players who all knew exactly what to do without the leader telling them to do it. Essentially what I'm saying is group heal is "the key spell" for shamans if the group/leader doesn't know what they're doing or how to react to unforseen circumstances. However as I've been in groups where everyone knows their job, I know for a fact that gheal is useful in the rare circumstances where the mob isn't bashable/stunnable and is a caster, or it's a fight against a powerful dragon. However all these are really quite rare which is why I don't consider it the most important spell for shamans.

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-19-2001).]
Joth
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Postby Joth » Tue Jun 19, 2001 3:50 pm

Xizz,

Some of your statements are killing me with it comedy P-). For example this one: Essentially what I'm saying is group heal is "the key spell" for shamans if the group/leader doesn't know what they're doing or how to react to unforeseen circumstances.

So I have a question for you. One has you ever lead a zone group? Two, if have what would you do say you were leading a group in Cave City, and two dragons walked in during a fight?

Xizz, it not all about if everyone knows the jobs, hell I go over that before I even enter the zone, but there are situations that arise, where you NEED GROUP HEAL, to maximize group survivability.

Now I see people do zone in Jot, brass, and cc and have multiply deaths, they do get though the zone eventually though. If this is what you mean about doing a zone then okay; but when I lead a zone I try to get…0 deaths, yes that right 0 deaths. Anyone who group with me knows this, be it Jot, brass, or even CC.

You made a number of comments where I think A. you need more experience on the mud, and B. Unless you actually lead major zones you see what happens when 1 person dies, especially if that person is key member of a group such as a wizard type. When someone does things because to breakdown, because the person who does know what there doing dies, then there role is being filled, and that INCREASE THE CHANCE OF OTHERS DIEING.
Tanolm
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Postby Tanolm » Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:16 pm

btw dont most of the higher level zones have mobs that are helped GREATLY by gheal?

TF - dragon
CC - dragon(s)
IC - malice
JOT - dragon(s)
Brass - sultan
Astral - jub
Fire - imix
Air - Yan
Flames - dragon(s) and flames
Tanolm
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Postby Tanolm » Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:17 pm

.

[This message has been edited by Tanolm (edited 06-19-2001).]
Xizz
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Postby Xizz » Tue Jun 19, 2001 4:31 pm

Hell no I won't lead groups with the current set of evil players around. There are some good ones but I ain't breaking in the majority of them.

As for what "Essentially what I'm saying is group heal is "the key spell" for shamans if the group/leader doesn't know what they're doing or how to react to unforeseen circumstances." This is heavily colored by my aggression to kilopile at that moment. So please take a lot of it with a grain of salt.

Two dragons walking into the fight in CC would all depend on the group members available, how far along into a fight the current spellcasters are in (appx spells used up), the immediate surroundings, (ie more agros), and finally the current pop time. There's no one solution for a situation like CC, however survivability would rely heavily on how much full heal power is left, how many stones are left, who's actually tanking and depending on the make up of the group, how much "damage" is left to deal.

No, when I say do zones, I mean no deaths. Any more than two deaths in a zone means people were putzing around.

As for the few mentioned "major" zones.
Jot and Brass should be a no death trip.
Planes is dependant on luck in that if you're unlucky the big guys wander in on group and spank fast. Which should mean at most 2 deaths. Otherwise this should also be a no death zone. CC also luck, but there is some planning to it. Luck being factored into how the mobs are arranged. Tiamat well, everyone knows you're going there to die ^_^.

Of those, lets look at CC, how does gheal become critical in CC. It helps to cover dragon breathing. In addition it frees the clerics from having to cast heals on the non tank players who randomly get munched on by ripostes and other attacks. How does hex help here? for the cost of one spell, it helps all the offensive casters deal more damage to the mob targetted. The faster something's dead, the faster the group can mem and be prepared for the next mob(s).

Please note, I make the distinction between helps greatly and absolutely necessary. ie, Malice doesn't need a ghealer, helpful but not necessary.

[This message has been edited by Xizz (edited 06-19-2001).]
Kiloppile
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Postby Kiloppile » Tue Jun 19, 2001 6:45 pm

Coupla things:

1. Yer right. I should have said "as" instead of "with". My language was slightly off what I meant.

2. The entire reason I've been as hostile as I have towards you is your initial post after Uthgar announced the changes. You made a huge stink about how "biased" this change was towards goodies, and by mentioning the fact that Uthgar plays a goodie shaman you indicated he was biased as well.

3. Group heal is damn important. Hex, though it has nice effects on the combat, wasn't (obviously) intended to have the major effect it was having. You can glean this tidbit from the fact it's only a 6th circle spell. I'm pretty sure it was intended to be something that would encourage people to bring a shaman a long at lower levels.

Peace, man. I don't wanna keep hashing this argument back and forth. Obviously we disagree on the role of a shaman in a group, but we're not even able to group with each other, so in the end it's of very little import.

Throughout this thread I've tried to keep my comments to the subject of the shaman's abilities... to the extent that I stooped to the occasional personal attack, I apologize.
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Postby Xizz » Tue Jun 19, 2001 7:04 pm

From the start of playing an evil race character, I've often noted that evil race players do things differently than good race players. Not in attitude but by necessity and because of the available races. For instance, evil race players have the option to bash mobs in Brass, which is why casters in Brass isn't really that deadly. Stuff like this is why I mention the fact that Uthgar plays a goodie shaman, I don't mean to say that he's intentionally making changes that are beneficial only to good race players, however it ends up happening this way. There was no way I could say that this was happening without some people seeing it as offensive, you try to tell someone that what they're doing is biased then tell me how you told that person w/o him or her being pissed.

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