Necro wraiths downgrade

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Revenki
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Necro wraiths downgrade

Postby Revenki » Mon Aug 13, 2001 8:53 pm

I am just writing this post to comment on the wraiths recent downgrade as far as nuking goes.

It's not surprising they got downgraded as they were quite powerful, effectively adding 4 nukers to a group while only using one of the precious 15 group slots. There definitely should be a balance in the nuking power of a necro with his wraiths versus that of an invoker.

Invokers primary attribute is to be the best nuking class, a necro with 3 wraiths could effectively out-nuke one invoker, which is in my opinion an imbalance. This imbalance is not as harsh as it might seem though, 1st you have to take the time and have the resources(corpses) to make the pets in the 1st place. 2nd, the wraiths cannot tank worth a crap and have very low hps, averaging about 250 hp at level 50. What this means at higher levels is that if a wraith gets switched to it's dead. (Vamping doesnt help because they are mage class and even if they have managed to vamp an extra 200 hps in the current fight, they're gonna be dead in 1 round while trying to tank high level mobs, also high level mobs magic resistance can effectively negate a wraiths vamping abilities). Due to their low hps and the inability to cast protections on them unless you give them a protection item, they are effectively dead after 1-2 areas. Once they are dead if you do not have a ready supply of corpses around you are s.o.l. for replacement pets.

While I agree that they're nuking ability was a bit high, I believe it was offset by their low survivability in high level fights.
(One switch to a pet is one dead pet, 1-2 areas is death of all pets.) If you are going to reduce their ability to be the high power nukers they were, I would suggest increasing their survivability some. Give them a hp boost, and/or allow protection spells to stick to them. Wraiths used to be able to stone themselves which offset their low hps and crappy mage tanking abilities, but that was eliminated. Now you are left with mage pets with low hps, no protection against areas and their benefit of being good nukers while alive gone.

I don't mind the tweaking and balancing of the classes, the wraiths nuking was powerful and did need some adjustment. I'm just writing this to make sure that in the tweaking of classes, one class is not castrated for the sake of others. I myself cannot see the numbers as far as how well the pets nuke, what percentage of the total damage is being done by them, etc. as the immortals can, so I do not know how tweaked the pets were. This post is just a necromancer's perspective on the wraith nuking issue.

Revenki
Ragorn
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Aug 14, 2001 2:20 am

It seems to me the trend in the Necromancer class has been away from summoning in general and more toward player-specific spells. During alpha, there were several noticable pet downgrades, and these were offset by giving the Necro himself more firepower.

Are Necros going to be indistinguishable from Invokers by this time next year?

- Ragorn
Ubek
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Postby Ubek » Tue Aug 14, 2001 4:45 am

Wow, all that whining finally got necros downgraded. I saw it comming a mile away. Same crap that happen when vokers where first implemented. Jealousy baby, it's an ugly beast :P
izarek
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Postby izarek » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:23 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>

Are Necros going to be indistinguishable from Invokers by this time next year?

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe. Ouch! Good point, Rags.

Izzy
Hamibugan Sinweaver
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Postby Hamibugan Sinweaver » Tue Aug 14, 2001 5:39 am

Would that be like how Shamans are a mini indistinguishable clone of every other casting class in the game?
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Postby Lyt » Tue Aug 14, 2001 6:10 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Revenki:
<B>
I'm just writing this to make sure that in the tweaking of classes, one class is not castrated for the sake of others
Revenki</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, this statement exemplifies the plight of the conjurer. We were thrown on the altar and sacrificed for the sake of PC tanking. While I feel your pain and the changes made to your class, just look at it this way. As you level you get a variety of pets that improve as you get higher in level. You can also have more than one pet. Conjurers get none of these. And your good pets can cast as well, while mine don't. That coupled with the fact that my pets have as many hit points as yours is sad too.

I am not trying to whine and complain, I am just giving you a different perspective. Be glad you still have what you do :) Also remember what it used to be like playing a necro with all of the grouping restrictions. You guys are on easy street now if you ask me. :) *wink*

Lyt
Izizimmez
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Postby Izizimmez » Wed Aug 15, 2001 6:32 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ragorn:
<B>Are Necros going to be indistinguishable from Invokers by this time next year?

- Ragorn</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ragorn you've given me the perfect idea to "balance" the mud!

Everybody gets the same race and class and skills! That way nobody has a class or race that can do something no other class or race can do. Phew, why didn't someone think of this earlier?

/sarcasm
Gindipple
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Postby Gindipple » Wed Aug 15, 2001 7:29 am

Hrmm this has potential, make everyone a multi-classed char, I like it!
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:09 am

Necros are by no means 'done', nor are Invokers. All classes are a work in progress, and the Mage classes in particular are due for some more overhauls in near future.



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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
Kegor
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Postby Kegor » Wed Aug 15, 2001 9:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Revenki:
<B> 2nd, the wraiths cannot tank worth a crap and have very low hps, averaging about 250 hp at level 50. What this means at higher levels is that if a wraith gets switched to it's dead. (Vamping doesnt help because they are mage class and even if they have managed to vamp an extra 200 hps in the current fight, they're gonna be dead in 1 round while trying to tank high level mobs, also high level mobs magic resistance can effectively negate a wraiths vamping abilities). Due to their low hps and the inability to cast protections on them unless you give them a protection item, they are effectively dead after 1-2 areas. ... If you are going to reduce their ability to be the high power nukers they were, I would suggest increasing their survivability some. Give them a hp boost, and/or allow protection spells to stick to them. Wraiths used to be able to stone themselves which offset their low hps and crappy mage tanking abilities, but that was eliminated. Now you are left with mage pets with low hps, no protection against areas and their benefit of being good nukers while alive gone.
Revenki</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This is a fine point brought up here. I fully agree that wraiths just die way to easily from 1 or 2 area spells. I have given the matter a little thought as to what would help make necros more useful and balanced...

1. Magic Ressistance - Something that would shrug those clouds off 60%(?) of the time. This would apply to all PC raised mobs.. spectres through ghouls.

2. More Hp - Now this could be a bad idea if they grouped up with an enchanter though and started getting stones and blurrs... depending on how high the hp increase. That is if #4 down below were also implied.

3. A little of both? - Give them around 400 - 500 hp and a little magic ressistance?

4. Make Ghouls More Useful - Give them warrior skills and the abilitly to wear all eq. That way when fighting demons / dragons / giants... you could have a couple more shield punchers, some hitting, etc. curtously of your prepared necro.

All of those thoughts are just to make them more useful on a zone group level. Would this make them a powerful solo class? I don't think so if you put them comparitivly next to a shaman. I dunno.. just throwing some thoughts out there. Something should be done about this tho.


-Jaznolg
rylan
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Postby rylan » Wed Aug 15, 2001 12:18 pm

What I've started doing is prot'ing and viting Revenki's pets. You can beef the wraiths up to around 500hps for a nasty fight that way, and they can take a few area spells then with the protection stuffs.
Kind of annoying to spell them up too, but its worth it for some particularly nasty fights with multiple !bash casters.
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Wed Aug 15, 2001 1:17 pm

Ghouls are warrior mobs. Give them a shield, and they shieldpunch/bash. And for a LONG time they were hitting harder then me...
Ubek
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Postby Ubek » Wed Aug 15, 2001 10:27 pm

<i><b>
2. More Hp - Now this could be a bad idea if they grouped up with an enchanter though and started getting stones and blurrs... depending on how high the hp increase. That is if #4 down below were also implied.
</b></i>

This would be more in the direction of what the mud used to be, with conjie having nice tanks Image etc etc etc... But it seems the necro class is doomed to being nutered, it's funny to watch really...

<i><b>
4. Make Ghouls More Useful - Give them warrior skills and the abilitly to wear all eq. That way when fighting demons / dragons / giants... you could have a couple more shield punchers, some hitting, etc. curtously of your prepared necro.
</b></i>(They already are bub..)

As they are, Ghouls can tank well, the problem is we have no control. Infact, it's because they are classed as warrior mobs that's why we have no control. Warrior mobs generally prepare to fight a group of PCs, but that approach is not necessarily the best approach for a mob attacking another Mob. If the AI were written completely seperate(dare I DREAM) and cater it to be more of a tank AI, and only acting when necessary, then this would allow for more usefulness. Now the issue of eq, imho is a bad idea. Yes Ghouls can wear eq, yes, they'd tank better, but hell no, a decent set of warrior gear would be lost to a reboot. And in a 2 year period, having put together some 1000 eq sets would drive me postal I tell you...Postal. The only feasable thoughts I've had are ridiculous, ie, renting a ghoul :P eq on ghouls being dropped into your inventory..etc etc...

1. I like number 1.
3. Wraiths don't need hps..after 41, a necro should not be looking at wraiths as being his primary tank, but towards ghouls, or dare I say it, pcs :P Ghouls for when he can't find a group and PCs for much better xp, imho.

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