equipment distribution
equipment distribution
I couldn't find the age-old thread on this topic, so I'm posting it anew, after being in a group where eq split left some people feeling gypped. What is the best way to distribute eq in a large group? Handouts, or dicing? Can anyone think of a different method that might result in fewer hurt feelings?
Any system can be considered fair PROVIDED IT IS ANNOUNCED TO EVERYONE BEFORE THE ZONING STARTS. Not only that, everyone in the group should agree to the system. From what I heard (being married to one of the members of that group), this wasn't the case for the situation Eadgydd mentioned.
A lot of people will swear that bidding is the most fair, while others will swear just as vehemently that handouts are better. However, I think you could make an argument where a person who lives by one system might consider the other.
Case 1: Leader A has a close-knit group of friends who always go zoning with him. Because of this, he/she can use the handout system and no one will feel slighted. However, one day he needs more than his usual circle of friends for a particularly nasty zone. Does he/she do bids this time around?
Case 2: Leader B believes heavily on the bidding system. In one particular group where he needs, say, 3 warriors, he notices that 2 of the warriors already have Spanky Item X from this zone, while the third does not. How does he respond when he hears the two warriors who have Spanky Item X both say they wanna get a second one for their alt, while warrior 3 is just happy to be along?
I think the EQ distribution question has probably been debated as much among the mud population as things like abortion and gun control have been debated in the population at large. The result is basically the same: you're never going to convince everyone else to see it your way.
So, to conclude my ramblings:
1. Are handouts fair? Sure, provided that before the zone is done, the leader says "Such and such items are going to be handed out this time." At that point the followers have the option to stay or leave. Some people will still zone knowing that they're out of the running for a certain item, others will not.
2. Are bids fair? Sure, how much more fair than random chance can there really be? It might seem like certain people consistently get slighted - Lord knows I've had that feeling before - but given enough time it evens out.
3. Do leaders have the right to reserve an item from the zone? Damn right they do. Just be sure you say so when asking people to join and/or before you start. Nothing is more frustrating than hearing, "Oh, we were doing these gith gaunts for Warrior Not Named Vandic, didn't you know?"
4. Could a combination of handouts and bids work? I'm sure it could, provided everyone agreed to it BEFOREHAND (see the point I'm getting at here?)
5. Is it logical to tweak the two major systems to find some other way of handing out eq? People have tried (read: Touk's bonus bids...ahoy Cap'n!), I think the jury is still out on the success of such systems.
Wow, I think my conclusions were longer than my original argument. Ah well...being stuck in an oil refinery in 95 degree heat for 11 hours will do that to you.
P.S. - to that certain someone who feels she got slighted...don't worry about it. It's just a game, remember? ;-)
-Vandic "Zoning? I vaguely remember that" Hammerfist
-=Raging Shield=- Wanderlust Excelsium
A lot of people will swear that bidding is the most fair, while others will swear just as vehemently that handouts are better. However, I think you could make an argument where a person who lives by one system might consider the other.
Case 1: Leader A has a close-knit group of friends who always go zoning with him. Because of this, he/she can use the handout system and no one will feel slighted. However, one day he needs more than his usual circle of friends for a particularly nasty zone. Does he/she do bids this time around?
Case 2: Leader B believes heavily on the bidding system. In one particular group where he needs, say, 3 warriors, he notices that 2 of the warriors already have Spanky Item X from this zone, while the third does not. How does he respond when he hears the two warriors who have Spanky Item X both say they wanna get a second one for their alt, while warrior 3 is just happy to be along?
I think the EQ distribution question has probably been debated as much among the mud population as things like abortion and gun control have been debated in the population at large. The result is basically the same: you're never going to convince everyone else to see it your way.
So, to conclude my ramblings:
1. Are handouts fair? Sure, provided that before the zone is done, the leader says "Such and such items are going to be handed out this time." At that point the followers have the option to stay or leave. Some people will still zone knowing that they're out of the running for a certain item, others will not.
2. Are bids fair? Sure, how much more fair than random chance can there really be? It might seem like certain people consistently get slighted - Lord knows I've had that feeling before - but given enough time it evens out.
3. Do leaders have the right to reserve an item from the zone? Damn right they do. Just be sure you say so when asking people to join and/or before you start. Nothing is more frustrating than hearing, "Oh, we were doing these gith gaunts for Warrior Not Named Vandic, didn't you know?"
4. Could a combination of handouts and bids work? I'm sure it could, provided everyone agreed to it BEFOREHAND (see the point I'm getting at here?)
5. Is it logical to tweak the two major systems to find some other way of handing out eq? People have tried (read: Touk's bonus bids...ahoy Cap'n!), I think the jury is still out on the success of such systems.
Wow, I think my conclusions were longer than my original argument. Ah well...being stuck in an oil refinery in 95 degree heat for 11 hours will do that to you.
P.S. - to that certain someone who feels she got slighted...don't worry about it. It's just a game, remember? ;-)
-Vandic "Zoning? I vaguely remember that" Hammerfist
-=Raging Shield=- Wanderlust Excelsium
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Vandic:
A lot of people will swear that bidding is the most fair, while others will swear just as vehemently that handouts are better. However, I think you could make an argument where a person who lives by one system might consider the other.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea, I use to do bids on Toril. Everyone did (cept the evils i dont htink did). But all the goodie groups did bids. It was just the way it was done.
Handouts is a much superior way to organize the mud. The people who need eq the most that contribute to teh group the most can get what they need and the group can become stronger.
The trick with handouts, is to keep a list of people who didn't get an item on a particular trip, and give them somewhat of a priority on the next run. Balance is the key.
The hell with bids. I wish i could take back all the bids I did on Toril.
Trogar
A lot of people will swear that bidding is the most fair, while others will swear just as vehemently that handouts are better. However, I think you could make an argument where a person who lives by one system might consider the other.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yea, I use to do bids on Toril. Everyone did (cept the evils i dont htink did). But all the goodie groups did bids. It was just the way it was done.
Handouts is a much superior way to organize the mud. The people who need eq the most that contribute to teh group the most can get what they need and the group can become stronger.
The trick with handouts, is to keep a list of people who didn't get an item on a particular trip, and give them somewhat of a priority on the next run. Balance is the key.
The hell with bids. I wish i could take back all the bids I did on Toril.
Trogar
I think I know the situation that's being talked about here, as I was in on the group as well and I can't blame her for feeling a bit slighted.
I felt a bit slighted myself, as I put my bid in on 3 items as was requested, but I wasn't included on any of the die rolls. 2 out of the 3 items didn't really bother me because although my alt Pally could've used them, I think it's more important that the characters who actually do the zone should have first crack at any eq they need over someone else's alt. What did bother me was the mage item that was just handed out without any explanation why a die roll wasn't done.
I didn't complain though, for a few reasons. One, it was my first big zone ever and I was mostly happy to just be along for the trip to check it out. Second, I know that large groups can be really confusing to deal with. Thirdly, I'm not one to bitch and whine over eq. That being said, if this trend continues in the future then I simply won't bother doing big zones anymore and people will have one less enchanter to pick from.
Personally, I prefer smaller groups with people I know for eq runs. You can't hit the really major stuff, but you can do a lot of things with 3-4 people. In situations like this, people are happy to give things to players who need them first, and everyone comes away with enough items to keep people happy.
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Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 08-26-2001).]
I felt a bit slighted myself, as I put my bid in on 3 items as was requested, but I wasn't included on any of the die rolls. 2 out of the 3 items didn't really bother me because although my alt Pally could've used them, I think it's more important that the characters who actually do the zone should have first crack at any eq they need over someone else's alt. What did bother me was the mage item that was just handed out without any explanation why a die roll wasn't done.
I didn't complain though, for a few reasons. One, it was my first big zone ever and I was mostly happy to just be along for the trip to check it out. Second, I know that large groups can be really confusing to deal with. Thirdly, I'm not one to bitch and whine over eq. That being said, if this trend continues in the future then I simply won't bother doing big zones anymore and people will have one less enchanter to pick from.
Personally, I prefer smaller groups with people I know for eq runs. You can't hit the really major stuff, but you can do a lot of things with 3-4 people. In situations like this, people are happy to give things to players who need them first, and everyone comes away with enough items to keep people happy.
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Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 08-26-2001).]
I'm glad to see some constructive discussion here, as I was afraid I might just be opening a big can of worms.
I agree with Galorian that it's a lot easier to do handouts fairly when you have a small group that keeps adventuring together until all are equipped. It's much harder to do handouts in large 'zone' groups, which is specifically what I wanted to discuss on this thread.
I agree with Trogar that handouts are probably a much fairer way to split eq, for the single reason that you don't get someone bidding on the same item 9X without getting it, while someone else goes to the zone once, bids and gets it the first time.
That said, I think people would be happier all around if the handouts were announced to the group before starting. Sure, some people would ditch the group if they weren't going to get anything, but do you really want to play with them anyway? (Take your toys and go home! :P) I think most novices to the zone would be happier with a consolation prize, if they knew that's what they were going to get from the start, than with getting to list three preferred items at the end and not getting any of them. (Though I think you did the handouts differently, Tro, the last time I went with you.)
Anyone want to try out this method?
I agree with Galorian that it's a lot easier to do handouts fairly when you have a small group that keeps adventuring together until all are equipped. It's much harder to do handouts in large 'zone' groups, which is specifically what I wanted to discuss on this thread.
I agree with Trogar that handouts are probably a much fairer way to split eq, for the single reason that you don't get someone bidding on the same item 9X without getting it, while someone else goes to the zone once, bids and gets it the first time.
That said, I think people would be happier all around if the handouts were announced to the group before starting. Sure, some people would ditch the group if they weren't going to get anything, but do you really want to play with them anyway? (Take your toys and go home! :P) I think most novices to the zone would be happier with a consolation prize, if they knew that's what they were going to get from the start, than with getting to list three preferred items at the end and not getting any of them. (Though I think you did the handouts differently, Tro, the last time I went with you.)
Anyone want to try out this method?
What's with this 'people won't go if they don't get eq'? I do 10 zones in a row without getting any eq... I do it for fun, the reason we all play this game, and because without me it might have been harder. I enjoy spending time with my friends and doing something other than sit. This generally includes zoning even when I know that I won't get anything.
That being said, I've loved the handouts that the evil leaders have been doing for the most part. After everyone in the group was well equip'd, they switched to bids, which certainly seems to work just as well as those that need the item (ie those that aren't part of the regular crew) will bid on the item that no one else needs and most likely get it. In a system where groups are constantly full of strangers, I don't see this method working at all.
Dicing for eq is probably the best way to do it. What I think would be the most fair way to dice is different from the only way available to us now, however. A much better system would be to have a 'groupdice' command, that would roll a d100 for everyone in the group, not let anyone get the same number, and then order those from 100 down to 0, and let the person at the top pick first, and so on down the line. Much more even/fair than bidding/dicing for each piece, in my opinion.
-Todrael
That being said, I've loved the handouts that the evil leaders have been doing for the most part. After everyone in the group was well equip'd, they switched to bids, which certainly seems to work just as well as those that need the item (ie those that aren't part of the regular crew) will bid on the item that no one else needs and most likely get it. In a system where groups are constantly full of strangers, I don't see this method working at all.
Dicing for eq is probably the best way to do it. What I think would be the most fair way to dice is different from the only way available to us now, however. A much better system would be to have a 'groupdice' command, that would roll a d100 for everyone in the group, not let anyone get the same number, and then order those from 100 down to 0, and let the person at the top pick first, and so on down the line. Much more even/fair than bidding/dicing for each piece, in my opinion.
-Todrael
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">A much better system would be to have a 'groupdice' command, that would roll a d100 for everyone in the group, not let anyone get the same number, and then order those from 100 down to 0, and let the person at the top pick first, and so on down the line. </font>
That is an excellent idea, Todrael. For the most part, I havent been on too many big zones and in almost all of them we have used bids, dicing, or a combination of the two. I usually didnt get anything good but I never complained beacuse I was happy to have gone along to a new zone and see what there was to see. Todrael's idea would be a great way of deciding who gets what at the end of any zone.
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Your purse seems lighter.
As far as bids go, I like the dice-per-item method of assigning each bidder a number and dicing 1x. It's more random than mentalbidding, and it gives the zone leader a slight (yet deserved) advantage in knowing if he can snag a second-tier item without contention.
In an ideal world, handouts are the best system. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to make do with imperfection
- Ragorn
In an ideal world, handouts are the best system. Unfortunately, sometimes we have to make do with imperfection
- Ragorn
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">What's with this 'people won't go if they don't get eq'? I do 10 zones in a row without getting any eq... I do it for fun, the reason we all play this game, and because without me it might have been harder. I enjoy spending time with my friends and doing something other than sit. This generally includes zoning even when I know that I won't get anything.</font>
The main complaint being here isn't the fact that some people came away with little or no eq, the complaint is with HOW it happened. If someone had said to me 'hey, we need your help, but all items are already spoken for' then I probably would've gone anyway just to get the experience of doing the zone. Over the weekend, I went to help two different groups get someone a quest item when I knew there was nothing in it for me. The problem here is the two-faced nature of the distribution, making people think they have a chance at getting something then turning around and screwing them out of that chance.
Besides, part of the fun of this game IS getting cool eq from zones. I'm sure that once I have the level of eq that you do, I won't be worry about getting any on a zone run either. For anyone who doesn't have all of the spankiest eq already, if they have a choice to go with random group A and get nothing or go with random group B and possibly get something that they need, they'll choose B every time.
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Galorion (Paladin)/Alzaris (Enchanter)
[This message has been edited by Galorion (edited 08-27-2001).]
With the groups I've been with, we usually do a hand-out method because we generally have a decent amount of stuff to split.
Its done on a need-basis (give item requests to leader, who will try to split fairly), with previous items taken into consideration (so if you didn't get much the last couple times, you should get something good).
If its a crappy haul, then we'll do dice stuff.
Its done on a need-basis (give item requests to leader, who will try to split fairly), with previous items taken into consideration (so if you didn't get much the last couple times, you should get something good).
If its a crappy haul, then we'll do dice stuff.
Agree Tod, at first I went along with alot of the zones to try to bring my abysmal invoker hp up to the point that I could at least survive a switch or cloud, but now definately for fun and to see other peeps get it(I usually bid on the weird stuff now(enter a bunch of gsay telling me I can't use a deva cloak since I'm evil 
)).
That being said, the handout system done by the bigger evil zone leaders works well, but usually only if you go on a more regular basis(name recognition and level having much to do with that) but however, it ends much more fair than a dicing since dice being random one could see a poor luckless enternameofpersonhere not get a single good dice and having none of the stuff that he really needs.
Zazyg "I invaded Evermeet and all I got was this flagon" Ark'Henneld
)).That being said, the handout system done by the bigger evil zone leaders works well, but usually only if you go on a more regular basis(name recognition and level having much to do with that) but however, it ends much more fair than a dicing since dice being random one could see a poor luckless enternameofpersonhere not get a single good dice and having none of the stuff that he really needs.
Zazyg "I invaded Evermeet and all I got was this flagon" Ark'Henneld
I've had a chance to take part in probably every system of distributing eq ever devised. From claimed items to handouts to ele bids to dicing to multiple bids..
With that said, I prefer handouts.
Basically if you do your job and the group is successful, you *know* you are going to be rewarded if the leader is fair. Bidding doesn't ensure that. I used to have people ungroup and log after fair dice rolls because it was their 17th trip bidding on that one item and they still hadn't gotten it.. (just frustration, not anger towards me or the group) now that no longer happens.
Handouts done effectively also promote a sense of community and camraderie amongst the group. You know getting Bob that bigass axe of troll-slaying is going to make your unit stronger so Bob can help you get your spiffy nifty ring of elements.
Now, you can do handouts and still do it poorly, however, if you're greedy. Its basically communism in practice and in theory. In theory, communism is great, and everyone works for the common goal for the shared purpose of everyone benefitting equally.
Communism in practice often leaves the peasant (the newbie or "fringe" group member) wanting for plenty while the wealthy get even more treasure (the core group and group leader).
It all comes down to two things.
Theory of distribution (handouts) followed up by implementing it fairly (favoritism being slim to none).
One doesn't do you much good without the other.
Just my two cents.
Dornax
Jurdex
With that said, I prefer handouts.
Basically if you do your job and the group is successful, you *know* you are going to be rewarded if the leader is fair. Bidding doesn't ensure that. I used to have people ungroup and log after fair dice rolls because it was their 17th trip bidding on that one item and they still hadn't gotten it.. (just frustration, not anger towards me or the group) now that no longer happens.
Handouts done effectively also promote a sense of community and camraderie amongst the group. You know getting Bob that bigass axe of troll-slaying is going to make your unit stronger so Bob can help you get your spiffy nifty ring of elements.
Now, you can do handouts and still do it poorly, however, if you're greedy. Its basically communism in practice and in theory. In theory, communism is great, and everyone works for the common goal for the shared purpose of everyone benefitting equally.
Communism in practice often leaves the peasant (the newbie or "fringe" group member) wanting for plenty while the wealthy get even more treasure (the core group and group leader).
It all comes down to two things.
Theory of distribution (handouts) followed up by implementing it fairly (favoritism being slim to none).
One doesn't do you much good without the other.
Just my two cents.
Dornax
Jurdex
Again we get back to the issue of handouts versus dicing. What I am trying to get at is the fairest way to do dicing, if you do it that way, or the fairest way to do handouts, if you use that method. I see merits to both.
Dicing has also been called 'lotto' and like a lottery you are happy if you get a big win, but you don't really expect it. It makes sense to do this at the end of a zone once all eq is in hand. Incidentally, I like Todrael's suggestion, and even though there is no 'groupdice' command, you could just roll off ties.
But if dicing is like the lottery, then handouts are like a paycheck. How many people do you know who would go to a job every day, putting in the same hours as their co-workers, not knowing what their paycheck was going to be at the end of the week? Not even knowing if they would get paid?
My contention is that all handouts should be assigned and announced at the outset, before starting the zone. If you are assigning eq in a way that makes half the group want to leave, you are doing something wrong. Sure, every once in a while you come across a greedy SOB who only cares what's in it for him, but in my own experience with spell- and weapons quests people here are willing to help out as long as they feel they are being treated fairly.
Dicing has also been called 'lotto' and like a lottery you are happy if you get a big win, but you don't really expect it. It makes sense to do this at the end of a zone once all eq is in hand. Incidentally, I like Todrael's suggestion, and even though there is no 'groupdice' command, you could just roll off ties.
But if dicing is like the lottery, then handouts are like a paycheck. How many people do you know who would go to a job every day, putting in the same hours as their co-workers, not knowing what their paycheck was going to be at the end of the week? Not even knowing if they would get paid?
My contention is that all handouts should be assigned and announced at the outset, before starting the zone. If you are assigning eq in a way that makes half the group want to leave, you are doing something wrong. Sure, every once in a while you come across a greedy SOB who only cares what's in it for him, but in my own experience with spell- and weapons quests people here are willing to help out as long as they feel they are being treated fairly.
For me the payoff is the fun of accomplishing a task with a group and the comradere that is felt while in that group and the fun that is had. The equipment is just a bonus at the end. The way evils dice to eliminate ties is to assign competing individuals a number from one - the number of people bidding, then dice 1 x, where x is the the number of competitors, the winner is clear this way. Good leaders remember who got what on a trip, and compensate those who didnt get much the next trip, and it works out very well from what I have seen.
In many cases I highly doubt handouts could be assigned beforehand. You never know when someone is going to leave and have to be replaced due to an emergency, if a mob you were planning to do winds up being too much for the party to handle, what zone you're heading to next after finishing the first, if a rare that's !locate has popped, or if it turns out that someone NEEDS an item more than origininally anticipated. No leader can forsee these things. If they could, their jobs would be a lot easier.
Well said, Trel, and to add onto that thought.. what happens if I say Bob gets the nebula and so he afks or slacks some during the zone but Joe who gets the crappy discord works his butt off during the zone..
A lot of factors go into handouts, and some of it is how much you bring to the group.. ie maybe you're the only cleric in tf versus one of three clerics in jot..
Dornax
Jurdex
A lot of factors go into handouts, and some of it is how much you bring to the group.. ie maybe you're the only cleric in tf versus one of three clerics in jot..
Dornax
Jurdex
That's why evils don't assign the handout before they zone. They hand it out afterwards, to whoever appears to need it the most. I've even seen leaders hand out 2-3 items from 2 jot runs from a crash, then drop all the rest on the ground for whoever feels like picking it up. The only time I have ever felt bad after eq was handed out was when it was diced the first week we did eq, or when I did 15 zones in a row with eq I could use and didn't get. Luckily, this has only happened twice.
On a side note, it looks like a lot of people would like the option of the 'groupdice' command as described above, maybe the Gods could add something like that?
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 08-29-2001).]
On a side note, it looks like a lot of people would like the option of the 'groupdice' command as described above, maybe the Gods could add something like that?
-Todrael
[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 08-29-2001).]
Some really really good posts I think here!
So civil to *surprise*!
I find that being a fringe group member, given that I can only play from time to time at very odd hours, sometimes I feel a bit jibbed in handouts because I am not a regular of any groups. However in saying that I also think that the way Folur's group goes about doing stuff and handing out gear is pretty much the ideal thing as I could see it for them. And then when I take a group somewhere to grab one or two items a random bid can also be fair and fun cos it usually with a very rag tag group of folks who could use it. I of course do like to give things to people who are going to put it on right there heh.
I certainly like the idea of declaring handouts before the group, I would still be in any group I dare say, but I can see why you might not want to get beatun up and spend 4 hours doing something when you thought you had a chance of getting a nice item you had your eyes on for a while.
I admit some people make me cranky aswell when they get say 3 items because they can wear them right then and another person gets none because it all warrior/caster gear....grrrrr...trade is good.
anyhow have a fabulous day!
So civil to *surprise*!
I find that being a fringe group member, given that I can only play from time to time at very odd hours, sometimes I feel a bit jibbed in handouts because I am not a regular of any groups. However in saying that I also think that the way Folur's group goes about doing stuff and handing out gear is pretty much the ideal thing as I could see it for them. And then when I take a group somewhere to grab one or two items a random bid can also be fair and fun cos it usually with a very rag tag group of folks who could use it. I of course do like to give things to people who are going to put it on right there heh.
I certainly like the idea of declaring handouts before the group, I would still be in any group I dare say, but I can see why you might not want to get beatun up and spend 4 hours doing something when you thought you had a chance of getting a nice item you had your eyes on for a while.
I admit some people make me cranky aswell when they get say 3 items because they can wear them right then and another person gets none because it all warrior/caster gear....grrrrr...trade is good.
anyhow have a fabulous day!
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