Group heal downgrade again

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Sot
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Group heal downgrade again

Postby Sot » Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:43 pm

Is there a reason this was downgraded, yet again? I am sorry, this is going to sound negative, and it probably is, but my perception of the changes to the MUd in the past motnh or so, have all been player downgrades.

Instead of concentrating on putting in content promised since before opening, we have gotten wave upon wave of downgrades.

To hear that silence person was downgraded, is another blow. Mobs had no problem landing silence on characters before, and yet PCs had a tough time landing them on MOBs. Now it will be even tougher?

This just boggles the mind, the constant flow of downgrades... I know you don't want to push your players away, but sheesh.. listen to them on the boards, instead of going solely by how you want the game to be.

Sot
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Sep 15, 2001 2:35 am

Im behind Sot on this. The group heal downgrades before seemed resonable, but at its current level its just crappy.

have you forgotten who casts the spells?

Ogres, Trolls, Barbarians, Orcs...

NOT elves, yuan-ti, drow, duergar, dwarves...

We have less int, and so our quick chant works alot less.

Please change Group heal back....


*Frustrated with continuing downgrades*

Gromikazer Terrorforge
Gokal

Example of excessive: Casting: group heal *****




[This message has been edited by Galok Icewolf (edited 09-14-2001).]
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Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:55 am

at it's previous rate i could cast 2-3 a group in the time it would take for a cloud to go off. w/ all the other ways of preventing clouds like stun, it was way too easy to beat the crap outta mobs. right now it's not that bad.
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Postby Kuurg » Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:58 am

The spell is going to be used, no matter how many downgrades it receives. It's just too necessary to do anything other than gripe. We'll, of course, all knuckle under and use it in whatever form we get it, but really, how was it over-powered with a ** cast time?

My ogre almost never hits qc on it, so now I've always got ***** to wait when what I need is to get some hp to group fast.

I'd really like to see this change ammended.

I really like knowing that the imm's are putting so much work into the mud, so I hope this thread is seen as constructive feed-back, not negative attacks on changes.



------------------
·Kuurg·
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Postby Todrael » Sat Sep 15, 2001 1:06 pm

To all shamans complaining about group heal never hitting quick chant, or failing before completion: LEVEL! Really, jeez. At level 41, -yes- your 9th circle spells are going to suck. The difference between 90 quick chant and 99 quick chant is huge! It's a whole new world up at level 50.

-Todrael

[This message has been edited by Todrael (edited 09-15-2001).]
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Postby Yaxacilix » Sat Sep 15, 2001 2:40 pm

Tod, rokub's qc is 87, it hasn't budged in forever. And he was pertially the way into lvl 49 b4 he died and lost the lvl :P So plz understand that the ogres and trolls qc's are at least the same or worst...

Rokub
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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:20 pm

In a 15 person group, a single g-heal spell can heal as much as 1500 hps. I dont think waiting a couple seconds for the spell to go off is unreasonable at all.

Corth
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Postby Todrael » Sat Sep 15, 2001 4:01 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yaxacilix:
<B>Tod, rokub's qc is 87, it hasn't budged in forever. And he was pertially the way into lvl 49 b4 he died and lost the lvl :P So plz understand that the ogres and trolls qc's are at least the same or worst...

Rokub</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's your playing time? Do you have the 50 days it took me, as a drow, to get 99 quick chant? Another problem is not just the levels but the speed at which shamans seem to go through those levels. Skills are important, and just because you're an ogre or a troll or an orc doesn't mean that you need to be thrown a bone.

-Todrael
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Postby Jurdex » Sat Sep 15, 2001 7:52 pm

Level 50 dwarven cleric

meditate (very good) (88)
quick chant (very good) (88)

Playing time: 49 days / 21 hours/ 51 minutes

Never notches.

Dornax
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Postby belleshel » Sat Sep 15, 2001 8:13 pm

Level 50 RANGER

quick chant (very good) (89)


Image

Just notched..make that qc 90 Image

[This message has been edited by belleshel (edited 09-15-2001).]
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Sat Sep 15, 2001 11:56 pm

Group heal, actually only heals 91 for each person in the group, so the max is actually 1365... which hey that may be good, but considering one cloud can do in excess of 5000. Group heal was understandable before.

It is just excessive now. Todrael ogres, trolls, barbarias, orcs. You think there int is anywhere near drows? Did you know last wipe my shaman had in excess of 65 days playing time and his quick chant was still only 89. I wouldn't be surprised if it is impossible for shamans to get master quickchant.
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Postby Joth » Sun Sep 16, 2001 5:57 am

If you all don't want gheal i take it!
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Postby rylan » Sun Sep 16, 2001 10:41 pm

Nods about QC.. from what I've seen, cleirc QC and meditate skills appear to be capped at 90.. to be blunt this pisses me off. Image

Meditate only notches when you fail the skill check, so thats another minus.
Nevertheless, a QC skill of 90 still fails around 15-20% of the time.. bah

Usually gheal needs to get off quick, so having a 5 star cast for when it (usually) misses QC sucks bigtime.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 17, 2001 12:59 am

Exactly the point rylan. With more testing, I'm 100% positive shaman quick chant is maxed at 90, not 99 like wizards. Group heal is a spell thats necessary to go off fast so people dont get spanked....
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:29 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
Exactly the point rylan. With more testing, I'm 100% positive shaman quick chant is maxed at 90, not 99 like wizards. Group heal is a spell thats necessary to go off fast so people dont get spanked....</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

quick chant (very good) (90)


Playing time: 38 days / 21 hours/ 16 minutes
(lot of idling at work and home mind you)

i believe 90 is the cap. i've been 50 for at least a month and of course i cast alot :P
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2001 4:34 am

1365 hps per spell. boo hoo, im crying.

You realize that gheal has the same chant time as casting a heal. Which is 100hps. IMHO, group healing in general has been one of the most unbalancing events on this mud in a long time. Granted, getting rid of room silence requires that some form of groupheal exist. But you cant tell me that waiting a few seconds to get off such a powerful spell is so horrible.

And this doesn't even take into account the fact that shamans are, even after downgrades, the most overpowered class on the mud. Even if they lost stoneskin, which is a very important spell, they would still be pretty damned powerful. They can stun mobs, they can groupheal, they can heal, they have nice damage abilities, and the best pet in the game. They can vit, and they can word. They can relocate to corpses and make formerly difficult cr's, a cakewalk.

IMHO, shamans should lose stone. A clerical class shouldn't have that spell. Especially a clerical class as overpowered as shaman.

And while I'm ranting.. how exactly is blur any different from displace? I know, I know, displace is more powerful. But I mean, they both basically "blur" the tank. And isn't one of our current problems the fact that tanking is too easy now?

Maybe thats a spell that has seen its day. Especially when you consider all the other prepatory spells that our poor enchanters are required to cast.

Corth
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:35 am

Best pet in the game.. ROFL thats the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks for cheering me up.

(Removed part of response. Corth's idiocy has show through.)
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Postby Kiloppile » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:41 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>Best pet in the game.. ROFL thats the funniest thing I've heard all day. Thanks for cheering me up.

(Removed part of response. Corth's idiocy has show through.)</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cutest maybe?
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2001 11:21 am

shrug, I havent grouped with many conjurers so I dont know remember if they're pets are better. So maybe I am wrong about that small part of my post.

Corth
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Sep 17, 2001 11:36 am

Sorry, my fault. I forgot you only know whats in folur's group. So you dont know anything about necros... my bad...
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Postby Malacar » Mon Sep 17, 2001 1:48 pm

I feel the love.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:21 pm

Galok,

Why not try responding to the substance of my post rather than hurling personal insults? Ok, I admit, I was wrong about shaman pets. The correct way of phrasing it would be "and shamans get very good pets." Can we move on?

Corth
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Postby Zrax » Mon Sep 17, 2001 8:30 pm

said the desert to the grain of sand..
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Postby Tanolm » Mon Sep 17, 2001 10:03 pm

Corth, if I get downgraded again i'm gonna kick yer arse. Image
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Postby Xizz » Tue Sep 18, 2001 12:08 am

Replying to Corth:

Shamans are good on paper only. Shamans can Heal and GroupHeal, yes they can do that however in a zone situation would you ask a cleric to cast Heal? From my experience the answer is no because the tank will end up dying due to the long casting time and the small amount that it does heal. For a shaman to heal, without specialization in healing that healing doesn't do a whole lot. A shaman can GroupHeal however with 5 stars on the spell, how do you expect that to combat area spells or breathe attacks? Generally area spells can hit once every two rounds if the mob isn't or cannot be bashed/silenced. A breathe attack can hit every round. With 5 stars on a GroupHeal, okay, even if it's averaging 3 stars per spell that would mean the spell would go off once every round with every 2-3 spells taking an extra round.

Stoneskin is a nice spell however with the inclusion of dragonscale this spell isn't of much important. In a zone situation, with a grood group and a good enchanter with that spell, there isn't a need for shamans to cast stoneskin. As more players get dragonscales, this should become more evident.

As for shamans having the ability to stun, this is also shared with the illusionist ability to stun with their many spells. As a side note, isn't phantom heal an illusion based spell which means that healing should hit 150pts, then add in a good quick chant and....

Shamans have a nice damage capacity, however that is dwarfed by the damage a necromancer, druid, and invoker can deal. Only class that deals less is the enchanter class. I'm not too sure about illusionist damage.

Shamans only have a decent pet. The pet isn't really able to tank anything of equivalent level to the shaman without a lot of preparation and spells. Also have you seen a necro's pet? They are a heck of a lot better in an experienced player's hand.

Shamans have the vit spell. This is a nice spell however in a zone situation that's like asking the player who recieves a shaman vit over a cleric vit, if they don't mind having a better chance of dying.

Shamans can cast word of recall. Would you take a shaman along that abuses that spell to a zone?

Essentially what it comes down to is that they are a jack of all trades but master of none. They have a bit of a lot of nice spells however they will never surpass any class in their spells. The only exception was Hex and GroupHeal. However, Hex was shared with clerics cuz they whined a lot about it :P, and GroupHeal was hosed cuz, um people wanna die more Image

As to how to fix the shaman class without hosing them down... I would have my vision however the admins have theirs so there isn't any point as I was always the advocate that hex was a primary spell for shamans (which got shot down by an admin) so I don't particularly feel compelled to share ideas which get shot down/ignored especially when the admins take the advice of other people who don't even play the class. (<-- das another story doh :P)
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Postby Dinggle » Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:46 am

"Shamans can cast word of recall. Would you take a shaman along that abuses that spell to a zone?"

You word out of a zone cause you afraid of dying and you wont be zoning long, period.

I dont care what wording class you play.

shamans rock.
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Postby Kiloppile » Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:28 am

That's not entirely true. Druids can word in some situations and be ok, *IF* they can well right back to the group.
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 18, 2001 3:30 am

Xizz:

you make some good points. I agree that many of the spells i listed aren't always useful in a zone. However, gheal is supremely useful, even when it takes 3 seconds to cast. And stone is useful, for instance, if the enchanter is out meming. The pet is certainly useful.. I'm completely envious of the spirits cause my shades have tops 70hps. And yet even with such few hps i find many uses for them besides merely togging to lure mobs in cc.

As for soloing, I dont think anything beats a shaman, even a necro. Until magic resistance was upped, shamans could solo spectres (another spell i forgot to mention, silence). An argument could be made for necros, and yes they have more damage capabilities, but they dont have stone or healing.

Lets put it this way.. I find that one of my most useful spells in a zone is spook because I can stun mobs with it. I save my group from eating lots of clouds at vault/loki/thrym, and other areas. This ability is given to the shaman as an afterthought on top of everything else they have.

I can understand why shaman were given stone in the first place. For years, they were pretty much the only evil stoners. I just dont see that it still makes sense when you add in gheal, spirits, spirit walk, and enhanced damage which has been given to them over the years. If ancestral shield is added the class will be a monster.

The problem with an overpowered class is that it takes away from the other classes. There is a severe shortage of enchanters on the mud, and a good reason for this is probably that at mid levels a shaman is so much spankier. Why bring an enchanter to do dockmasters if a shaman can heal you, stone you, and do *much* more damage. I bet there are more then a few shaman who now wish they had rolled an enchanter because even though they have a high level they cant get many good groups while there aren't enough enchanters to go around.

To conclude, there is a damn good reason so many people rolled shamans this wipe... they are very very powerful.

On a completely different subject.. I dont find myself casting phantom heal very much. It has a particularly vicious bug (and i'm not talking about the vit-death aspect of it which is intentional). And even if it worked properly, its still not a heal. Its an illusion... which wears off.

Corth
(btw: I am by no means saying in this message that illusionists are underpowered. I am very happy with the class.)
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Postby Kegor » Tue Sep 18, 2001 2:22 pm

I think the changes to this were rightly made. I am still expecting a downgrade to area damage across the board pretty soon to pave the way for elementalists and bards. Take a couple more seconds casting time for the sake of bards and expect your area offense to go down a little bit for the sake of elementalists.

I've been hearing nothing but whining about the downgrades coming in. Come on people.. when this is all over and done with we will all be satisfied... be willing to comprimise a little bit for a fun and challenging mud.

-Jaznolg
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:25 pm

Corth, Ill try to be more civil this time... Im sorry...

As a 45th level shaman, I fail 2/3rd of my spirit summoning. I get 3 attempts every 3 hours. How good are spirits now in comparison to summonable pets?

{Sidenote, summon totem dosent notch, its been at 40 forever}

Yes shamans do some good damage, but almost every class does more damage this wipe. Illusionists, lich, necro, invoker, druid, shamans do the majority of the damage on the mud right now with spells. Of those classes shamans do the least.

X said it best... This mud is about zoning. Shamans have and always will be used for GROUP HEAL. Thats the spell they need, their niche to be in zone groups. When its slashed and slashed, to make it almost not usuable it makes it hard for shamans.
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Postby Gort » Tue Sep 18, 2001 6:44 pm

I agree w/ Galok, and X, I would also like to know how many spiritwalk/scrying shaman there are... I have yet to see or even hear of it being applied. Add to that the quest not being the easiest in the game (not that they're meant to be, and don't change em)

I've got a ton o play time, still just level 38 (wholesale deaths due to crappy HP's, and smackdown mobs) For a cleric class, we really low on HP's, I think many of the utility skills/spells Corth's mentioned are something of an offset to it. In the few zones I've done, I blew half my heals keeping self alive so I could heal the tank. So, though I don't have gheal yet, I'm for a *** cast time.

My 2 coppers worth.

Toplack the Everdying Shaman
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Wed Sep 19, 2001 11:45 am

GOOD point... we are cleric class with significantly less hps, but get switched to as often as clerics.. e.g ALL THE TIME...
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Postby Tanolm » Wed Sep 19, 2001 4:38 pm

Gort:
When spirit walk came in, I first thought it was a useless spell too. But now after having had the spell for a few months, I find it extremely useful. Using spiritwalk, I have turned some 2 hour CR's into 5 minute CR's. It also allowed me to get to my corpse a few times in order to help the group after I had died but the group was still fighting. I only use the spell about once per week, but it is a useful utility spell. Scry remains isn't as useful, but it lets you see where you're spiritwalking to before go there.
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Postby Gort » Wed Sep 19, 2001 5:49 pm

Tanolm,

I figured it'd be useful, just was wondering if anyone had it, am looking forward to it. I believe it would be VERY beneficial in those situations, but don't know that gheal should have an average ***** cast time because we have it.

Thank you for your response and information on it!
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Postby Sylvos » Wed Sep 19, 2001 7:40 pm

As another example of spiritwalk's usefulness, recently I heard there was a spank doing a nasty quest that you can't get back to. In order to CR, the group needed a shaman with spiritwalk to get back into the area to CR them. So there are uses - it's just selective.

Sylvos
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Wed Sep 19, 2001 9:06 pm

Very selective. A large majority of high level zones I think are !teleport....
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Postby izarek » Thu Sep 20, 2001 12:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
Very selective. A large majority of high level zones I think are !teleport....</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*rant*

!teleport sucks. it dont fit rp and its a cop out. sorry, its one of the very few weak areas of the mud, imho
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Postby Xizz » Thu Sep 20, 2001 10:27 pm

Galok:
I don't know about you, but as an orc shaman, I used to get 5/6's of my summon spirits early this wipe.
I also don't get switched to that often as my orc shaman even though I would have the lowest hp in the group, and if I did, I have never died from that before.

Tanolm:
Spiritwalk, what a useful spell for doing a CR, however GroupHeal is the more important spell as it Prevents CRs.

Corth:
Well now, Shamans being able to solo stuff is nice and all, however anything I can solo, a Necromancer can do as well if not better with the proper preparation.
In addition I don't recall if this was changed, however Liches can self heal, which in addition to life leeching spells make them a nice solo class if you take the time to prepare.
Stuns spells are really nice yes. Aren't illusionist spook spells more consistent with their stuns? Also, if you consider the game mobs from an evil group's point of view, there are actually very few mobs that can be stunned that can't be bashed by an ogre. One of the few exceptions I can think of are the giants in jot.
As for the large populace of shamans out there, they would have their own reasons if any for regretting at making the class. However I have no regrets about making the class because I enjoyed playing the class when it was still "young." The only reason I don't play the class more often is because there are very few things that I can do as a shaman in a group situation and as most high level characters will agree, the group situation is the only important situation. Why shamans don't contribute much in a group situation? Their restorative (healing) powers aren't as great as a cleric's. Their defensive powers aren't as great as an enchanters or maybe (never played the class at high levels) illusionists.

.. more to come when I can type more, gota get offa work right now :P
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Fri Sep 21, 2001 6:25 am

I am a orc shaman. I can count on one spirit per 3 pretty much. It has come up more often then not that all 3 have failed.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:07 pm

xizz - good points =)

I believe Lich self healing was taken out to prevent Tanrat from soloing Jot. (it was about to happen! really! :P)
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Postby Dalar » Tue Sep 25, 2001 8:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
GOOD point... we are cleric class with significantly less hps, but get switched to as often as clerics.. e.g ALL THE TIME...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

to prevent this, have lower hp or vit your cleric. i always laugh when larok has more hps b/c i never get switched to Image
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Postby Xizz » Wed Sep 26, 2001 6:36 pm

and to continue with my rant...

A shaman's offensive power isn't as great as a necro or druid and there should be no need for me to mention invokers :P. So my own role in a group situation comes down to a few things. In a fight I will attempt to stun as many mobs as I can, then watch out for mob switching at which point I will use my spirit to rescue, or cast stoneskin on the person who does end up tanking if it's a caster class. Group Heal comes into play if the mob casts area spells or breathes area attacks, but this isn't often. I cast hex a lot if I deem that the mob needs to be killed fast. The reasoning behind my lack of offensive spell usage is because this way I can provide backup for the group in case additional mobs walk in upon the group while they are memorizing spells or if a mob walks in while the group is already fighting. The other and the main reason is that there are enough other classes around that out damage the shaman.

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