Tanks

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Ensis
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Postby Ensis » Wed Oct 10, 2001 3:57 pm

OK..lets make this more into a "fix warriors" instead of "downgrade pallys!" discussion.. arguing about the ups and downs of pallys is pointless..

I've always seen warriors as the weapons master types. In conventional roleplaying games Warriors are balanced out by getting better at melee combat than their ranger/paladin counterparts. In DnD the big thing was specialization/weapon mastery. So heres another iteration of my idea.

Give warriors Weapon Specialization. At 30th level, a warrior can pick a chosen weapon type, ie: 1h slashing, and specialize in it. When using their specialized weapon, they could get benefits like:

Increased hitdam with said weapon.
Possible extra attack
Increased parry/riposte/disarm
Increased chance of landing critical hit

Those are just some ideas for weapon specialization. Some other options I've thought of are a couple more hit points (as per Cherzra's recommendation)

The possibility of a triple attack doesn't seem likely since everyone would be worried about warriors taking away from rogues/rangers.

I do understand where all the warriors are coming from, do a help skill_warrior and tell me which skills are in that list that paladins/rangers DONT have.

Thats right, shieldblock, shieldpunch, and headbutt. Headbutt is a pretty controversial skill becuase of KO self, shieldblock and shieldpunch are pretty much mimiced by mounted combat and charge (albeit mounted combat has more disadvantages.)

E

Oh, another thing, how many people actually use hitall?.. maybe that could be made a warrior specific skill and tweaked a little bit so there isn't so much lag/isn't so useless.

[This message has been edited by Ensis (edited 10-10-2001).]
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 10, 2001 4:15 pm

hey galorian i did mention those things you pointed out in post before the one you quoted.

Yea paladins have disadvantages, they got some very strong advantages too. I think warriors are the most jealous taht you bastards can still wield weapons that do damage while we have to plunk around with fricking needles. Not to mention less hitroll (more dam roll eq) and most exp mobs and zone mobs are evil aligned so where does your negative exp factor into this (it doesnt). If there were more good aligned mobs it would probably lessen the grumbling here, thats just not the case, and wont be for some time unless all the area gods are working on good aligned zones right now.

Your disadvantages used to be cant group with evil, lose exp from non-agro good and neutral aligned mobs, and low hps for pc tanking. No grouping restrictions anymore (a hearty yea for that one), no good aligned zones that get done often enough to affect your exp more than the 25% bonus, and your mounted combat skills apparently more than make up for your lack of hps. Where are the disadvantages?

Ensis, damage is rogues niche and someday supposedly rangers niche. If we dont upgrade dam for them as well as warriors theyll be bitching. If we effect dam upgrades through weapons, paladins and antis will get the upgrade as well. WHich goes back to my earlier point, warriors are a base class, not supposed to be anything special about them. However, sub classes dont need to be better at anything (or everything case may be) either. We've chosen to implement each sub classes with a critical skill on par or surpassing warriors. the argument is that they are better at everything than warriors (rangers still cant tank so guess thats somethin).

Id like people to play more warriors, and play subclasses not bceause they are more powerful but bceause they offer a variety (mounts, spells, archery, whatever). Whines that my subclass is too weak should be considered in a context that they not supposed to be required in zones and they do not necessarily need to have any skills that are on par with warriors (thats why they get spells, mounts, exp bonuses, poison, archery, ect...)

My comments on imping antis for evils, dont do it. Id rather not have the same headaches the goodies go through on group composition, is this balanced ect. Id rather have a unique class added or none at all. We dont need a counter for everything you got. You dont need a counter for what we have (id like lichs to go back to evil race only). I think goodies have more powerful chars at the moment (regardless if you guys choose to play the right classes roll some invokers and lichs you dorks) and when rangers get fixed youll have another advantage (or disadvantage). SO be it, you dont play an evil because were the most powerful classes (though we were way more powerful than goodies last wipe but next to worthless before squids/duegs came in 2 wipes ago), you play it for challenge and the community.

What I think speaks louder than all this rhetoric is stuff like jurdex saying i take paladins to tank because they are better. He should know. I dont know if touk or folur have anything to contribute, but id like to hear from them or other full time leaders.

From paladins, I would be interested in hearing about how often you get dismounted. If its somewhat rare then I think we can compare mounted combat to warrior combat. If its often, then therein lies a disadvantage that some folks are trying to gloss over in an attempt to portray paladins as out of balance. post some numbers and be fair. Regardless of your numbers, leaders take you to tank so your skills must be dependable.

Kiryan's boring rhetoric evaporates harmlessly around you.
Kiryan's boring rhetoric bores you.
You feel older.
You are stunned by a mighty blow from reality.



[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 10-10-2001).]
Ensis
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Postby Ensis » Wed Oct 10, 2001 4:39 pm

I believe we get dismounted if our weapon skill sucks and we're using that weapon mounted. Fairly often until that skill is up to par with mounted combat.

Mobs that can bash also can dismount you if they land a bash, thats a pain in the ass, when xping its ok because you can usually have someone rescue you real fast and remount/rescue them..but even still is a pain.

Tripping mobs too, they can trip the horse and the horse pitches you off, that sucks. Then theres the always reliable !bash !shieldpunch mob that casts unholy word/wraithform. Pally's dont tank against those unless they want to end up on their feet, mounts don't last long.

As far as the exp zone thing, yea there aren't a ton of good zones. You can't blame that on a paladin, we aren't area builders :P And yea, it does suck. There are pretty much only a couple places a paladin can fight. It usually goes goblin caves, ssc, bgr, hp, then ship. thats it. it may be good xp, but it is VERY monotonous and newbie pallys dont exactly get great experience fighting in those places.

Especially when elites/dockmasters are good xp that people dont have to leave town for.

Kiryan, I can appreciate what you're saying, but really, would the warriors be happy if paladins got a bag of suck handed to them? or would they be happy if they got a couple new cool skills, some extra hps, and maybe some more survivability? It would be more constructive to brainstorm new ideas than to knock down what they have now.

E
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:18 pm

Warriors would be happy with new skills thats not the problem. Its that rangers and rogues would suddenly become unhappy. Theres basically defense and offense.

Order for offense
rogues, paladins/antis, ranger*, warriors

Order for defense
Paladins/anti, warrior, ranger, rogue

* im guessing at rangers, dont know where they fall without archery in offense. since they can dual better, id assume they do more dam than warriors, they may hit harder than paladins/antis dont know.

Note that im listing paladins and antis ahead of warriors in the two major spheres. Thats the argument, why are the better in both spheres and/or are they really better tanks. Couple that with spells, mounts, and other skills and it starts to look really unfair from a warriors point of view. Warriors get have two redeeming points. Shieldpunch and consistency.


You challenged me to add something constructive that we could imp to balance without downgrading, here goes.

Id say make a group combat modifier/skill that affects all the group memebers hit/dam/ac. Have warriors give and get the highest bonuses, and give the subclasses give smaller bonuses and not necessarily in all 3 areas. Paladins could give ac and hit, antis ac and dam, rangers hit and dam (rogues dont give any bonuses but do get the bonuses). Bards/bchanters should give higher bonuses than warriors (or dont give them the skill but make their battle song be better than the warrior skill). THis idea would be utility and give warriors something that they would be much better at while maintaining balances by giving the effects to everyone.

Only thing to worry about is the balance between melee and spells, and players vs monsters...

Im still not convinced that anything needs to be given to warriors anyhow. I still agree with chezra that some harder hitting 1h weapons (that are not duable by rangers or rogues) would be very appreciated. Im thinking paladins and antis might need to lose some offense or some tanking ability, id favor a reduction in offense (or i dont think they would get taken to zones and youd have 4 classes trying to be in the damage niche with only warriors in defensive).
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Wed Oct 10, 2001 6:18 pm

-reduce lag on hitall substantially
-make headbutt actually DO something for the shorter races
-change the KO thing on headbutt to not be so harsh

other then this i do noto see a problem with the class.
Nokie
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Postby Nokie » Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:04 pm

You've obviously never seen a ranger with Windsong :)

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>Order for offense
rogues, paladins/antis, ranger*, warriors
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

------------------
Nokie 'No you don't!! That belongs to me!' Quickfingers
Sarvis
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Oct 10, 2001 7:17 pm

Not all of us can use Windsong...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Nokie:
<B>
You've obviously never seen a ranger with Windsong Image

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Galok Icewolf
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:26 am

Okay Paladins do as much damage as rogues.

Not only do they need less hitroll (higher dam) but they get offense (adds damage) mounted combat (adds hit/damage) and 2handed bonus (adds hit/damage) so they do alot of damage.

Now okay those arguing in favor of paladins.

Whats the difference between a umounted paladin wielding a 2handed weapons tanking, and a warrior unmounted wielding a 2handed weapon?

The paladin tanks better and does more damage. Its not just about mounted combat, its just these things that are just added together that make it sick?

Whatever leave paladins as they are. Throw warriors a bone. Tanks worse, needs more hit dam, no spells, only 1-2 skills another class dosent have.
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 11, 2001 1:55 am

Heh, solution is very simple here folks.

Akin to the clerical xp for healing, have warriors gain a slight amount of xp for hps *lost* while tanking. After all, they exist to take damage now, right?

Still doesn't make them deal any more damage, but their xp fears will be assuaged some.
Galorion
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Postby Galorion » Thu Oct 11, 2001 3:36 pm

I don't think easier xp for warriors is the answer, they already have it pretty easy there.

I think the key is to add in some useful skills in that 22-40 range where they get nothing.
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Thu Oct 11, 2001 11:09 pm

It's also very easy to get dismounted against a roaring mob. Sometimes both the horse and rider flee the room, but a lot of times just the horse and you wind up with a tank that's sitting on their ass. I don't think I need to elaborate on how messy that can get Image

I've got more to say on the warrior/paladin thing, but I'm short on time right now so I'll save it for later.

I'll say one thing about Windsong to Nokie before going though. Windsong is definately a wildcard in terms of damage. The number of extra attacks it creates is random, anywhere from 2-8 I believe (or I've been told anyway) but normally 4 or 5 attacks, which is a bit more than getting one critical hit. It definately is a contender for coolest looking proc though, next to the gythka IMO. As Iyatchu said though, considering equipment in the equation isn't such a great idea since the scales can be tipped anytime a new area or quest gets put in. There's also the matter of no 1h slashers that proc offhand being light enough for a ranger to use as a secondary and only being able to get to 85 in any weapon skill besides 1h slashing, but that can change each time an area maker does something. Okay, back to what I'm supposed to be doing Image
Frensolith
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Postby Frensolith » Fri Oct 12, 2001 3:54 am

Don't forget: Warriors get more hit points!
Well, unless yer an elf or something. . .


Frensolith, Elven Warrior

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