Upgrade elves!

[Kaede]

I'm just a greedy elf, and though I don't believe my post will be considered by the admin I'll just waste BBS space and post anyways Basically, I would like to see the con notches on grey elves improved by one so that they are no longer two notches below humans. Out of all the good races, elves are easily the weakest by far. Maybe drow too, but I'm not considering them here.

Compare these base stats for a character with 100 in each attribute:

Grey Elf
Hit: 7 Dam: 4 AC: 49

Half-Elf
Hit: 6 Dam: 5 AC: 62

Human
Hit: 6 Dam: 5 AC: 70

Halfling
Hit:10 Dam: 3 AC: 62

Barbarian
Hit: 6 Dam: 6 AC: 70

Dwarf
Hit: 6 Dam: 6 AC: 70

Gnome
bah who cares anyways

Overall advantages of elves compared to human base from what I can tell:
STR: -1 POW: 0
DEX: +1 INT: +2
AGI: +3 WIS: 0
CON: -2 CHA: +2

Overall you might say that these tradeoffs don't look so bad, and that elves have other abilities like outdoor sneak, innate infravision, and long life span. I won't consider size, because it can be both an advantage and a disadvantage. Some people like to pretend elves got some better spell resistance, but I've never seen that occur, and even if they did, -1 ss extra isn't going to help!

Before you start criticizing, take a little time and look at the other races. Create a chart for all the other races when compared to humans, and you'll see that they don't lose as much, especially in important stats (constitution, mostly), and what they gain is a much better tradeoff. I actually believe some races are FAR too unbalanced *cough* dwarves *cough*.

Elven crit rate is 1 percent or less due to the lower strength. Elven dex isn't as high as people think (especially compared to halflings, wow!) and that extra attack is not frequent enough to compensate for the low crit rate. Agility is nice but at high levels is not nearly as important as constitution. And as useful as the charisma bonus is...

Consider +max stat equipment too. Humans just need +2 max_con to get the next notch, halfelves need +6. Dwarves and barbarians don't need much to get their next +str notch. However, grey elves have to stack up the +max stat gear so much that its not worth it for their next notch. So the problems with the physical weaknesses of elves can't be improved by equipment, while other races can benefit from +max stat equipment.

Here's some comparisons I've made with real characters:
A halfling warrior has 120 hp more than an elven warrior at level 50 (this is just freaky).
A dwarven rogue has 130 more hp than an elven rogue at level 50.

The extreme lack of hit points is so bad and unjustified in my opinion. We should be weaker, but two whole notches weaker than those halflings?!? That's not fair! Especially when constitution is the most important attribute for any class... Its not fair for an elven fighter type that gets only 420 hp at level 50, or an elven rogue type that only gets 330 hp at level 50, when compared to other races, whereas their dwarven counterparts get near 700 and 460, respectively.

Yes yes, so you might say: don't make a fighter or a rogue! Well I disagree! Elves are too cool to be restricted to mage classes! Let's throw them a bone and add one extra con notch, an extra hp each level wouldn't hurt and they'd still be the weakest. It'll prevent whiney elven warriors and the like from posting on the BBS like this, too!

In conclusion, downgrade dwarves.

[izarek]

here's my opinion on my favorite race

leave the hit/dmg bonuses they're fine

what needs to be improved are elf hit points. Its just wrong that a halfling would be better.

Mebbe give them magic resistance, to help with areas and such.

Izzy

[Aderon]

I would just like to make a quick post on what Kaede is talking about. I am a grey elf Ranger level 46. I have under 400 hitpoints. My extra elf attack does not hit that often. I have not checked the exact stats but if anyone would like them, I could log my battles for a day and find out. What does matter is my half-elven counterparts can take a hell of a lot more damage than I can as they have about 100+ more hitpoints than I do. I make up for this difference by wearing what little hp eq I can get my hands on (currently a scarlet ring and a golden flame plate). However, this hardly covers any of the difference and I lose some hitter eq slots.

[Sarvis]

FEH! Don't get me started on half-elves again. All the advantages of human and elven rolled into one. They get infra, long life, elven weapons and only lose 4 points of max_con for it! Sorry... just... seeing those stats of half-elves and humans got me all upset again...

Anyways, hrm... thing is... elves are supposed to die fast when they get hit. But their extra agility and dexterity are supposed to make dodge/parry/shieldblock work better so that they don't get hit. HP aside, we need comparative numbers on parry/dodge/shieldblock rates to see how long an elfs meagre hp lasts compared to a barbies. It's certainly possible that they need more hp to be viable, but we can't really judge that on just this data.

And yes, I know... area spells. I've said a few times that elfs should get some kind of minor magic resistance. Not those damned half-elves though!

Sarvis

[Hyldryn]

One problem I keep on seeing is how people think crit rates work. Its either you have the same crit rate as a human or you get a few percent MORE dependant on race. Elves, gnomes, humans, half-elves, orcs, halfling, yadda yadda all crit the same amount.

[Yayaril]

Actually, halflings come from the same roots as dwarves and are very hearty. They just suffer from lower strength due to their tiny size. Makes sense that they have decent hitpoints.

Yayaril

[Kaede]

Hmm, my elven bard, after hundreds of hours aboard on ship, crits less than one percent of the time with a 100 strength. Coincidently, my elven warrior also crits less than 1 percent after hours of ship exp. (Actually it always shows up as 0 percent since zmud doesn't like fractions).

Is your human paladin equally pathetic? If so, then I am wrong about crit rates and we all suck, cause I've always thought humans had their 2 percent Or maybe its just that my characters just perform real lousy, I'd be happy to see how other elves are doing with 100 strength. My only explanation for this was that lower strength did matter based on my own characters.

However, dwarves and barbarians do crit 3 percent or more, so more strength is definately a bonus.

My basic point was that elves weren't as advantaged as some people think, and that I think that being two con notches below humans/half-elves/halflings is just too much.

-Kaede

[gnerble]

I've been playing a halfling for 3 wipes now. Let me just say that this is the best wipe by far for halflings. Although my halfling enchanter's mem times still leave something to be desired.

I notice that during a normal zone fight (say one level 55 mob, 20-30 rounds) I will crit usually 2-3 times, which seems like a 5% crit rate.. if I'm hasted that 5-6 attacks a round.

Always wonder about the "random" rolls..

Kaede - You need to stop playing that silly bard, give me your eq, and take up that spiffy cleric.

Thank you drive through

[gnerble]

Oh and just for kicks...

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Lig enters from the east.

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings 'There once was a rogue named Gnerblie...'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
You are hungry.
You are thirsty.

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
[Acheron] Aggappie: 'I'm going to die^H^H^Htry that then'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings a song so well you feel your pain and suffering ebbing away.

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Selias shouts 'FT: Frosty LF: hp rings mermaid pendants, ivory/nightshades, drow sleeves, turtleshell patch'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings 'He tried to steal a key from a guard...'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
[Acheron] Nokie: 'lol'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings 'Got pounded real hard...'

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings a song so well you feel your pain and suffering ebbing away.

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<>
Jaeli sings 'I hope you feel better hearing of his defeat '

< 429h/429H 101v/101V >
<> rofl
You roll on the floor laughing.

[kiryan]

Your post is focused on hit/dam ac so your looking at this from only one point of view melee. Elves make the worst melee classes because they have the worst con and poor strength. They have best agility and great int. That reads mage to me, but people will insist on playing elven melee for rp or personal like.

Its a bad choice for melee, dont choose it if you want to be a good warrior (defined as tanking and hitting well). i dont know about choosing it as a rogue, prolly not a bad choice, but better choices exist.

Do you see ogres bitching about their atrocious mem times? Its horrid, wish i could provide details, but its not uncommon for them to have 300-600 s mem times after a single battle in mid 20s. They get str and hps and nobash in return for their bad mem times. Trolls have great stats and regen, but burn burn burn! I took a 800 hp cloud... 830 to 50 in one spell.

Every race has advantages and disadvantages, I only see a problem with elves and that is if you make them a warrior, elven warriors just dont fit in the hp centric life of warriors on this mud. They make better mages and clerics if your more concerned about mem times than hps and decent rogues. If you narrow the gap in stats / hps, it all becomes kinda pointless, why not just make human the only choice? call it an elf, barb, gnome, halfling, ect but make it a human in terms of stats, would that make the elven warriors/rogues/mages/clerics happy? look at me im an elf! isnt that cool!

[Ilshadrial]

Kaede,

Email me please. If you want that information

Ilshadrial@hotmail.com

[Ensis]

Is your human paladin equally pathetic?

Paladins dont get critical hits.

[Trewe]

As a lvl 45 grey ranger all I can say is the HP suck!..

Until such time as they do something to "balance" the need for us to die from a single cloud (2 if we are lucky) I am not playing the worthless ranger anymore..

A high level caster = instant death proc if a bash is missed..

Rolled a halfelf instead..

Azder -yeah I have been level 45 for 2 months, so what- Darkstar

[Kaede]

Caz,

I wasn't posting those stats to focus on hit/dam - its fine as it stands. It was to point out realistic differences between races. People believe stuff like elves are a lot more dextrous and dwarves are a lot slower than they actually are. Those were posted so that you could see realistically what the breakdown was. I suppose it would have been best for me to also post hp at level 1, pray time, and mem time, but those are pretty obvious to any player.

I'm not suggesting a boost in con only for grey elven warriors/rangers/rogues. It is for all elves, but I point out that it affects the melee classes the most.

Basically an elven mage is the only real function of grey elves. But even then, there is no real advantage to playing one over a human. Initial mem times are fine, but consider level 50 mages with max int gear. That extra second or two grey elves have at this point doesn't make up for lack of 100 hp. Most mages this wipe are actually human for this reason, they know they need every single hp they can get, heck they fight over eq that is +5 hp more than what they have! High agility has never saved a mage once in zones (+hp eq is designed to keep their AC very worthless so it'd never make a difference).

Ogre shamans, btw, have advantages. Not being bashable by most mobs, having the most hp, and the fun of bodyslam can compensate for the exceptionally slow memtimes. But as usual, I am not focusing on immeidate gaming, but on the high level end where this difference is not so drastic.

I realize that there are advantages and disadvantages to each race. I'm just suggesting that one extra con notch for elves could be justified, and they would still be the weakest even with this change.

Overall, hp make the most difference in the game at high levels. That's why dwarves make the best warriors, clerics, rogues (you name it they are the best) in my opinion. They get bonuses on important stats, and suffer no penalty compared to a human except for the fact that they are tubby little freaks.

You can talk about immediate advantages and disadvantages for each class, but in the end hp previal over all, especially with the direction this mud is going. And in the end, elves are at a severe disadvantage due to their extreme lack of hp.

-Kaede

[Dibble]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Kaede:
<B>Basically an elven mage is the only real function of grey elves.
-Kaede</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the whole idea behind having different fantasy races. They have different strengths and weaknesses. Some race/class combos will be excellent, others will suck
Personally i think there should be even more variation in the abilities of the different races on Soj3.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Elves are too cool to be restricted to mage classes!</font>

You need a more logical argument if you hope to convince people that elves need an upgrade. There are quite a few elven warrior types on at all times (unlike gnomes) so other people must feel they are viable right?
Why does noone play a gnome warrior or rogue?... cause they suck like elves

Here is idea that has been suggested before here. Include another elven race besides Grey. Something slightly hardier but less intellegent, maybe stats similar to half-elves. This would make the elf freaks happy

Dibble "Gnomey don't play dat!"

[Sarvis]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dibble:
<B>

Here is idea that has been suggested before here. Include another elven race besides Grey. Something slightly hardier but less intellegent, maybe stats similar to half-elves. This would make the elf freaks happy

Dibble "Gnomey don't play dat!"</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah... we need another super-race like half elves. *mutters bitterly*

Sarvis

[kiryan]

First, they're not restricted to just mages. You can play a warrior or a thief if you want to. Sojourn has variety. Variety doesnt mean each race/class combo is the same.

Second, your analysis focuses on melee essentials, hit, dam, ac, hps. If you try to evaluate elves as a race compared to other races you need to take into account their other attributes, not just str, dex, agi, con. Of course they going to come up short where it counts as far as melee concerns there, they are strong in int, charisma and wisdom. Melee have no use for those stats in present. You want them to make great mages and great melee? Ok lets give ogres one notch less than elf int, bet that would make them super happy. And i did point out some ogre shaman benefits including hps and nobash. About dwarves, they cant be mages that a drawback to their race. I'd make a dwarven cleric if i wanted an uber char. I'd make an elven cleric because I think elves are neat, no other reason.

Anyhow, thats my point, you elf freaks, play elven warriors and dont bitch when you get up to high levels and suddenly realize that con is probably the most important warrior stat followed very closely by strength and elves have nearly the worst in both. Elves are best suited for mages, druids and clerics to a lesser degree, and make at best passable warriors and theives.

[Zen]

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You need a more logical argument if you hope to convince people that elves need an upgrade. There are quite a few elven warrior types on at all times (unlike gnomes) so other people must feel they are viable right?</font>

Atm there is only one elven warrior visible and playing. Frensolith hasn't been on in a while and I haven't seen Faedril since alpha. Both of these guys are friends of mine on the mud, and the three of us where the elven warriors from s2. (My warrior was an alt, and never got to zoning level before they shut down. Danged close tho.) Elves where viable last wipe, if you where willing to suffer on the zoning end for lack of hps. Elf warriors get less hps than gnomes, who as the story goes are of dwarfish stock. (Or vise versa, I can't remember.) The only functional reason that you see more elven warriors than gnomes is that gnomes are too small to bash, where as elves are nearly human sized for bashing purposes. If this is a thread about elven warriors, then I might suggest implementing half-elven warriors as a class. As it is, this is a discussion of elves in general, and I think you can make an arguement from a 1 con notch increase. As it is, there is _no_ class or class type on the mud that elves are better at than other races.

My three and 1/2 cents

-Zen

[Silverast Rubicyn]

Actually if I remember correctly at the beginning of last wipe elves were changed to have slightly better memtimes than gnomes. Dont know if that stuck though.

[Treladian]

I also want to toss in that gnomes have better than human intelligence while retaining human hitpoints. Gnome and elven memtimes are very comparible. Because of that, I'm not sure that elves are even suited to be mages.

Additionally, Kaitos and I, both halfelf rangers, die about 1/3 as much as Belleshel, a grey elf ranger, tends to in zones. We may not get an extra attack once every 7 rounds, but that advantage isn't much good if you die before it really does anything other than tickle a mob.

[Gindipple]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Silverast Rubicyn:
Actually if I remember correctly at the beginning of last wipe elves were changed to have slightly better memtimes than gnomes. Dont know if that stuck though.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT?!?
Is this true?
Man I thought gnomes would have best memtimes, anyone confirm this?


------------------
Gindipple (Gnome) stands here.

[Yadir]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Gindipple:
<B> WHAT?!?
Is this true?
Man I thought gnomes would have best memtimes, anyone confirm this?


</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Elves have better mem times than gnome but less hitpoints. Plus you have to have Leuth be your home town. Who wants that?

[Salen]

Don't bother throwing Clerics in to the mix when figuring Caster elves. The lack of Hps and the instant switch to cleric is enough to play a dwarf. Yes I have slightly faster mem times, but guess what I'm still waiting on the dwarf to finish up before we move so it doesnt mean much. At present, I vit to a little over 725. Give me 7 levels at 4 hp I have 750ish. Now add 150 points of missing eq I could have Im at 900. Dornax clears 1100 now with vit(I think). Does 1 second per spell pay off vs. 200hp and the str difference? Not hardly.
The ONLY advantage an elf gets as a cleric is wording to EM.

This DOES NOT mean I think dwarves should loose hps. I does mean I feel 1 hp per level more for elves isn't unreasonable. It would narrow the gap in the high end.

In all honesty memtimes matter very little in good zone groups. You will be waiting on the human or dwarf every time, so the only thing the fast mem does is have you standing when the aggro walks in. If this happens a bunch and it matters ... get new tanks.

[Vylare]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>First, they're not restricted to just mages. You can play a warrior or a thief if you want to. Sojourn has variety. Variety doesnt mean each race/class combo is the same.

Second, your analysis focuses on melee essentials, hit, dam, ac, hps. If you try to evaluate elves as a race compared to other races you need to take into account their other attributes, not just str, dex, agi, con. Of course they going to come up short where it counts as far as melee concerns there, they are strong in int, charisma and wisdom. Melee have no use for those stats in present. You want them to make great mages and great melee? Ok lets give ogres one notch less than elf int, bet that would make them super happy. And i did point out some ogre shaman benefits including hps and nobash. About dwarves, they cant be mages that a drawback to their race. I'd make a dwarven cleric if i wanted an uber char. I'd make an elven cleric because I think elves are neat, no other reason.

Anyhow, thats my point, you elf freaks, play elven warriors and dont bitch when you get up to high levels and suddenly realize that con is probably the most important warrior stat followed very closely by strength and elves have nearly the worst in both. Elves are best suited for mages, druids and clerics to a lesser degree, and make at best passable warriors and theives. </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, there were several threads lately asking how the mud could be made more newbie-friendly. If there are *actual* newbies around, they may choose to play elves, and it is a lot of work for a newbie to get up to high levels then suddenly discover they suck (from 1-20, you aren't even going to have anyone to compare yourself to, and it won't start getting extremely obvious til later anyway). Someone going from their knowledge of AD&D/FR might very well think that elven warriors were a very good combination. I'd consider this very newbie unfriendly, myself.
It should at least be noted in the help files that a certain race/class combo is inadequate for serious play and is provided only for rp reasons, or whatever. IMHO, having all race/class combos be *viable* (viable != "equal") is an important part of balance.

[Vipplin]

I checked gnome/elf mem times for 1st level 100 int chars. They are the same at level 1, so if there is a diff, it is 1/2 sec or something. Could be elves have lower notch than gnomes over 100 too *shrug*

Vadian

[cherzra]

So give elves -5 natural innate spellsave.. end of story.

[Jurdex]

Dornax at level 50 naked has 390 hps with a natural 100 con.

On soj1 at 50 Dornax had 398 hps naked with a natural 97 con.

How many do the elven clerics have naked?

Dornax
Jurdex

[kiryan]

So I think we can sum this up in that elves got all the niches that suck, or maybe better elves got the one disadvantage that sucks the most in todays game, hps. So don't play an elf.

What all the pro-elf folks are saying is we dont want the niches that were given to us, equal or best mage mem times, best cleric mem times, best agility, so please trivialize niches that belong to other races (hps) or change the code so that we can rock because of what we are strong in.

My response is do you want to do away with variety and good/bad choices. Make all the races human stats and restring them elves, ogres, trolls, drow (maybe you could get a drow warrior restrung as a ranger drizzt fans). That would be kinda a neat game, make for some good roll play while keeping game dynamics simple.

[Ashiwi]

I'm an elf. I rock! I have more style than any of the rest of you, just because I am me. What more could I ask?

[rylan]

Human cleric, at lvl 50 I will have 355hps naked.
So dorf clerics get about 1hp/level more than me due to that cool high con notch.

I'd guess elf clerics get about 1hp/level less than humans?

[Kaede]

Ack! I wish you people would get your facts straight before posting

No race has an above average wisdom. Only certain races have below average wisdom.

Elves, half-elves, humans, AND dwarves all have the same wisdom, and all take the same time to pray a spell. Don't want to believe me? Go roll up one of each race and find out. Or compare pray times, it has always been the same The only difference is where their max_wisdom lies, and for some it is easier than others to get the next wisdom notch. However, with the tons of max_wisdom gear out there it is possible for any race to easily achieve that extra notch. Even then, I'm not sure elves get a better max wisdom notch than others.

Kaede is an elven cleric, and at level 50 with the highest con notch he will have 290 hp. Compared to a human cleric, they don't only get one hp less per level, because as I've pointed out numerous times, they are two notches less in constitution, so the average difference I would estimate would be 70-75 hp less. While it is not as evident for a priest type, the difference is clear for warrior types.

Arguments that elves make better clerical types are flawed if they are based on a imaginary higher wisdom. Arguments for rogue types are also flawed, because unlike clerics, rogues can't really wear +hp equipment to boost their extremely low hp without sacrificing what makes them usable: hit/dam. As cool as Ashiwi is (and she is!) her 320 hp while wearing rogue type hp eq often ends in the result of numerous deaths And while I did not consider gnomes, they obviously have advantages at being mages.

It is true elves aren't the best choice for any class because the advantages they have are not enough to compensate for their heavier disadvantages. Higher agility and charisma is almost completely useless at level 50. All equipment designed for mages/priests/rogues have no AC on them, so in zones mobs will never miss on these classes. The only class a higher agility could possibly benefit then is the warrior class, and it is obvious that elven warriors are too frail to take advantage of that.

Of course people that love elves are those that know D&D, where elves weren't the weaklings they are here :P That's why we're so obsessed into playing them! Just one more con notch, please!

-Kaede

[Ashiwi]

::Ashiwi dons her "I love Kaede" button.::