Illusionists - Why they are overpowered.
Illusionists - Why they are overpowered.
Briefly since I am tired, but wanted to give Shev something to check out.
It seemed the staff wanted to implement a class that was reminiscent of the old sorc class as well as have new nifty features. Old sorcs were half utility and half offense. A very good mixture. They were almost necessary for zoning, but not very good outside of the group setting. I think illusionists are better at utility than enchanters and their offense has enough oomph to put them in a frightening category of very self-sufficient and twinkable.
Once I learned of half the things illusionists could do (from an illusionist mind you!), I was shocked at how unbalanced it was (to me).
Here's a list.. see how many classes have half these features:
Pets. Check. (Scout out or run past mobs)
Gate. Check. (Get to anywhere you want to go)
Relocate. Check. (See Gate)
Dimension Fold. Check. (Almost as good if not better than moonwell coupled with gate, can transport small to large groups almost instanteously across the mud)
Mirror Image. Check. (Can outtank warriors practically when fighting casters and even some hitter mobs)
Sequester. Check. (Mage becomes !summon as well as !dim thus destroying 2 means many mobs use to track down and kill their prey. Added bonus: people can't spy on you.)
Mislead. Check. (You're !track. Don't worry about that big nasty djinni that wandered in while running air plane, or heck even yan.. destroys the only other means by which mobs use to track down and kill their prey. Added bonus: you can run through zones and dim fold your group to you.)
Change Self. Check. (Can't go in Mithril Hall? Now you can! Good way to twink those 1k headbands even though goodies can't do purple silk eyepatches. Added bonus: mobs are no longer aggro to you.. makes soloing mean mobs easier.. walk in and cast w/o fear of bash, flee on competion of spell)
Displace. Check. (Most tanks agree its better than stone skin. Not to mention it will stack with dragon scales. Can be cast on the pet too to add time to its life when the illusionist runs past things. Helps the illusionist tank on mobs he probably shouldnt be killing. *cough 3 man kostchtchie cough*)
Camoflauge. Check. (The Illusionist can now hide. In a pinch when all else fails and that mislead falls, hide.)
Nondetection. Check. (Worried about eating unholy words or not being able to enter certain places due to your alignment? Not anymore. You can now change your entire character. You can have no aggro race, no aggro align, can't be tracked, summoned, dimmed to, can gate anywhere, fold in your group, stone them, have pets for luring or running by mobs as well as tank with mirror image.)
Add in their quality damage abilities coupled with their almost exclusive ability to stun (shamans usually ghealing) and then area stun mobs.. argh.
Okay, this sums it up:
3 man kost.
Dornax
Jurdex
It seemed the staff wanted to implement a class that was reminiscent of the old sorc class as well as have new nifty features. Old sorcs were half utility and half offense. A very good mixture. They were almost necessary for zoning, but not very good outside of the group setting. I think illusionists are better at utility than enchanters and their offense has enough oomph to put them in a frightening category of very self-sufficient and twinkable.
Once I learned of half the things illusionists could do (from an illusionist mind you!), I was shocked at how unbalanced it was (to me).
Here's a list.. see how many classes have half these features:
Pets. Check. (Scout out or run past mobs)
Gate. Check. (Get to anywhere you want to go)
Relocate. Check. (See Gate)
Dimension Fold. Check. (Almost as good if not better than moonwell coupled with gate, can transport small to large groups almost instanteously across the mud)
Mirror Image. Check. (Can outtank warriors practically when fighting casters and even some hitter mobs)
Sequester. Check. (Mage becomes !summon as well as !dim thus destroying 2 means many mobs use to track down and kill their prey. Added bonus: people can't spy on you.)
Mislead. Check. (You're !track. Don't worry about that big nasty djinni that wandered in while running air plane, or heck even yan.. destroys the only other means by which mobs use to track down and kill their prey. Added bonus: you can run through zones and dim fold your group to you.)
Change Self. Check. (Can't go in Mithril Hall? Now you can! Good way to twink those 1k headbands even though goodies can't do purple silk eyepatches. Added bonus: mobs are no longer aggro to you.. makes soloing mean mobs easier.. walk in and cast w/o fear of bash, flee on competion of spell)
Displace. Check. (Most tanks agree its better than stone skin. Not to mention it will stack with dragon scales. Can be cast on the pet too to add time to its life when the illusionist runs past things. Helps the illusionist tank on mobs he probably shouldnt be killing. *cough 3 man kostchtchie cough*)
Camoflauge. Check. (The Illusionist can now hide. In a pinch when all else fails and that mislead falls, hide.)
Nondetection. Check. (Worried about eating unholy words or not being able to enter certain places due to your alignment? Not anymore. You can now change your entire character. You can have no aggro race, no aggro align, can't be tracked, summoned, dimmed to, can gate anywhere, fold in your group, stone them, have pets for luring or running by mobs as well as tank with mirror image.)
Add in their quality damage abilities coupled with their almost exclusive ability to stun (shamans usually ghealing) and then area stun mobs.. argh.
Okay, this sums it up:
3 man kost.
Dornax
Jurdex
Yea i'm tired too, i just killed kostchtchie.
nondetection does not protect u from racial aggro. nor does change self. if u don't believe me, ask penshah to walk into gn clanhall.
Dornax, your view of the illusionist class is incorrect for your example of 3 man kostchtchie. It was not a determining factor in what happened.
Nondetection does not prevent unholy word, all Shevy said was "oo i like your ND idea" and didn't take action. I know this b/c i was in vault w/ SD and malice still unholy'd us.
nondetection does not protect u from racial aggro. nor does change self. if u don't believe me, ask penshah to walk into gn clanhall.
Dornax, your view of the illusionist class is incorrect for your example of 3 man kostchtchie. It was not a determining factor in what happened.
Nondetection does not prevent unholy word, all Shevy said was "oo i like your ND idea" and didn't take action. I know this b/c i was in vault w/ SD and malice still unholy'd us.
Just like in that M:TG card game, it doesn't matter if you have all the top cards.. someone can still beat you if they have a better strategy and use common cards that go together well to make frightenly effective combos.
I'm sure each guild has at least one of the classes in that 3man that did Kost tonight.. it's not like they had some kind of advantage over you (hmm I forgot, you guys DID disarm his hammer so that helped the boys stay on their feet) and they relied on the fact that hurt/stunned mobs don't perform certain things they normally do.
During the whole time they were doing it, I was expecting to see 'Corth has disbanded the group..The person you have consented to has quit the game.'.. heh, gratz on pulling it off
BTW - if I told you guys that I'm able to solo Chloracrida.. would Anti-Paladin's be considered overpowered?
[This message has been edited by Kalthanan (edited 11-02-2001).]
I'm sure each guild has at least one of the classes in that 3man that did Kost tonight.. it's not like they had some kind of advantage over you (hmm I forgot, you guys DID disarm his hammer so that helped the boys stay on their feet) and they relied on the fact that hurt/stunned mobs don't perform certain things they normally do.
During the whole time they were doing it, I was expecting to see 'Corth has disbanded the group..The person you have consented to has quit the game.'.. heh, gratz on pulling it off
BTW - if I told you guys that I'm able to solo Chloracrida.. would Anti-Paladin's be considered overpowered?
[This message has been edited by Kalthanan (edited 11-02-2001).]
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make kostchie harder, dont mess with the class.
clearly some imm needs to shadow corth while he plays and see what else he has found to abuse since discovering the uniqueness of the illusinist class. no one can debate he's a good player, but that skill should be used in other ways that will NOT lead to the constant downgrades. this all reminds me of everquest.
give kost a roomful of !bash friends
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 11-02-2001).]
clearly some imm needs to shadow corth while he plays and see what else he has found to abuse since discovering the uniqueness of the illusinist class. no one can debate he's a good player, but that skill should be used in other ways that will NOT lead to the constant downgrades. this all reminds me of everquest.
give kost a roomful of !bash friends
[This message has been edited by Grintor (edited 11-02-2001).]
My definition of a twink is someone that uses a great deal of knowledge and intelligent thought to use their skills and abilities to the maximum possible efficiency. I've always called Illusionists the Twink Masters. This is for one reason: their spells actually do something.
Looking down the help skill_list is not always the best way to argue the downgrade of a class. Realistically, looking at the enchanter spell list would produce many things that would appear -greatly- more overpowerful than the illusionist spells: major paralysis, dragonscales, power word blind, prismatic spray, enervate, ray of enfeeb, blur, feeblemind, stumble, fumble, sleep... these spells are used all of the time, to great effect (excepting sleep, since it's still bugged). Everyone cheers when the mob is major para'd. Why can't you just sit back and cheer that your tank has displace and the group is sequestered?
Also, if they did the 3 man Kost fight after the mislead change, then Kost didn't track for a reason: he was damaged. Since he would track the other two members of the group that weren't misled, it couldn't be the tracking/dim'ing stopping spells of the Illusionist that made it possible. Gate, relocate, pets, dimension fold, change self, nondetection, sequester, mislead and camouflage would all be generally worthless in that fight which just leaves mirror image and displacement.
-Todrael
Looking down the help skill_list is not always the best way to argue the downgrade of a class. Realistically, looking at the enchanter spell list would produce many things that would appear -greatly- more overpowerful than the illusionist spells: major paralysis, dragonscales, power word blind, prismatic spray, enervate, ray of enfeeb, blur, feeblemind, stumble, fumble, sleep... these spells are used all of the time, to great effect (excepting sleep, since it's still bugged). Everyone cheers when the mob is major para'd. Why can't you just sit back and cheer that your tank has displace and the group is sequestered?
Also, if they did the 3 man Kost fight after the mislead change, then Kost didn't track for a reason: he was damaged. Since he would track the other two members of the group that weren't misled, it couldn't be the tracking/dim'ing stopping spells of the Illusionist that made it possible. Gate, relocate, pets, dimension fold, change self, nondetection, sequester, mislead and camouflage would all be generally worthless in that fight which just leaves mirror image and displacement.
-Todrael
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Yeah guess his frost giant mages just hung out and watched them kill their boss.
*snicker*
3 man kostichie was impossible on Toril. Even with 3 relic wielders with the best EQ in game. Well I could think of a real close battle maybe, depends on how lucky we are and our potion supplies.
I personally do not like the illusionist spells that prevent mobs from tracking. THAT IS LAME! I also do not care for spells that allow you to explore new zones basically freely with no real treat of danger. Why do people waste time to write zones to have someone explore it with their new spank spells that prevent tracking, aggro mobs from attacking, ect...
"It's just a bunny"
Ilshad
Ilshad
*snicker*
3 man kostichie was impossible on Toril. Even with 3 relic wielders with the best EQ in game. Well I could think of a real close battle maybe, depends on how lucky we are and our potion supplies.
I personally do not like the illusionist spells that prevent mobs from tracking. THAT IS LAME! I also do not care for spells that allow you to explore new zones basically freely with no real treat of danger. Why do people waste time to write zones to have someone explore it with their new spank spells that prevent tracking, aggro mobs from attacking, ect...
"It's just a bunny"
Ilshad
Ilshad
As I said, if 3 man Kost was done after the mislead change, then it wasn't really mislead that made it possible/doable. If it was made before, then of course I'm corrected.
Nothing is 'impossible'. Heck, if you really wanted to, you could just track Kost to the tree and flee to astral whenever you needed to mem/heal. Things are quite different now, much less emphasis on mindless melee, much more emphasis on protective spells and debilitating effect spells. If you could feeb, pwb, silence, stumble, fumble, ray, scarlet outline, rainbow pattern, slow, enervate, blackmantle, wither, curse, hex, major paralyze and sleep Kostchtchie, I bet he'd be pretty easy. The majority of those spells are from enchanter, or shared among many of the spellcasters.
Also note that Illusionists lack some of the spells that are common to many or all mage types such as feeblemind, ray of enfeeb, and sleep.
-Todrael
Nothing is 'impossible'. Heck, if you really wanted to, you could just track Kost to the tree and flee to astral whenever you needed to mem/heal. Things are quite different now, much less emphasis on mindless melee, much more emphasis on protective spells and debilitating effect spells. If you could feeb, pwb, silence, stumble, fumble, ray, scarlet outline, rainbow pattern, slow, enervate, blackmantle, wither, curse, hex, major paralyze and sleep Kostchtchie, I bet he'd be pretty easy. The majority of those spells are from enchanter, or shared among many of the spellcasters.
Also note that Illusionists lack some of the spells that are common to many or all mage types such as feeblemind, ray of enfeeb, and sleep.
-Todrael
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>I've always called Illusionists the Twink Masters. This is for one reason: their spells actually do something.
Looking down the help skill_list is not always the best way to argue the downgrade of a class. Realistically, looking at the enchanter spell list would produce many things that would appear -greatly- more overpowerful than the illusionist spells: major paralysis, dragonscales, power word blind, prismatic spray, enervate, ray of enfeeb, blur, feeblemind, stumble, fumble, sleep... these spells are used all of the time, to great effect (excepting sleep, since it's still bugged). Everyone cheers when the mob is major para'd. Why can't you just sit back and cheer that your tank has displace and the group is sequestered?
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hilarious. And he's right.
IMHO I have noticed nothing overpowered about illusionists... if they could heal like a cleric or nuke like a voker, then I'd say yeah, we definitely have a problem. I haven't seen them do anything spectacular except make illusions (skill: state the obvious/1). If it turns out that at higher levels they are imbalanced, you could always tweak the numbers so their spells are easier for mobs to save against or something.
No need to tear out an eye if the person just needs glasses.
<B>I've always called Illusionists the Twink Masters. This is for one reason: their spells actually do something.
Looking down the help skill_list is not always the best way to argue the downgrade of a class. Realistically, looking at the enchanter spell list would produce many things that would appear -greatly- more overpowerful than the illusionist spells: major paralysis, dragonscales, power word blind, prismatic spray, enervate, ray of enfeeb, blur, feeblemind, stumble, fumble, sleep... these spells are used all of the time, to great effect (excepting sleep, since it's still bugged). Everyone cheers when the mob is major para'd. Why can't you just sit back and cheer that your tank has displace and the group is sequestered?
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hilarious. And he's right.
IMHO I have noticed nothing overpowered about illusionists... if they could heal like a cleric or nuke like a voker, then I'd say yeah, we definitely have a problem. I haven't seen them do anything spectacular except make illusions (skill: state the obvious/1). If it turns out that at higher levels they are imbalanced, you could always tweak the numbers so their spells are easier for mobs to save against or something.
No need to tear out an eye if the person just needs glasses.
Most of that stuff fits their class. The exception is gate and relocate. I'd say take out gate. Mislead was already downgraded to its proper place.
An idea: make their shadow magic dependant on an evironmental factor: darkness/nighttime
Just like a druid or ranger
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Izzy / Raev
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Rangers are the key to ultimate success. Try one out today!
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An idea: make their shadow magic dependant on an evironmental factor: darkness/nighttime
Just like a druid or ranger
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Izzy / Raev
************************
Rangers are the key to ultimate success. Try one out today!
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>
Also, if they did the 3 man Kost fight after the mislead change, then Kost didn't track for a reason: he was damaged. Since he would track the other two members of the group that weren't misled, it couldn't be the tracking/dim'ing stopping spells of the Illusionist that made it possible.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Todrael, the other two members don't have to do damage, they can sit out and heal/spellup the illusionist while he does runs, so the mob would never have a reason to track them.
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Lalsed the Druid of Destruction...?
<B>
Also, if they did the 3 man Kost fight after the mislead change, then Kost didn't track for a reason: he was damaged. Since he would track the other two members of the group that weren't misled, it couldn't be the tracking/dim'ing stopping spells of the Illusionist that made it possible.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Todrael, the other two members don't have to do damage, they can sit out and heal/spellup the illusionist while he does runs, so the mob would never have a reason to track them.
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Lalsed the Druid of Destruction...?
I've never thought it fair for people to post their strategies. It's a losing situation no matter what to do so. Some rather ridiculous upgrades to mobs have occured because of logs I've posted, where things such as pure chance take hold. Even if no changes are made as a result of this log, people will then take it and copy any and all strategies that they see used.
-Todrael
-Todrael
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>I've never thought it fair for people to post their strategies. It's a losing situation no matter what to do so. Some rather ridiculous upgrades to mobs have occured because of logs I've posted, where things such as pure chance take hold. Even if no changes are made as a result of this log, people will then take it and copy any and all strategies that they see used.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly Todrael, we will not be posting the logs, nor sharing the strategy. Your insight in this thread is awesome tod :P
[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 11-02-2001).]
<B>I've never thought it fair for people to post their strategies. It's a losing situation no matter what to do so. Some rather ridiculous upgrades to mobs have occured because of logs I've posted, where things such as pure chance take hold. Even if no changes are made as a result of this log, people will then take it and copy any and all strategies that they see used.
-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly Todrael, we will not be posting the logs, nor sharing the strategy. Your insight in this thread is awesome tod :P
[This message has been edited by Dalar (edited 11-02-2001).]
I wasn't even there, but I don't think its that difficult to figure out the 'strategy' involved in that fight.
Illusionist basically solos, with other people there to provide spellups... kost and his friends therefore don't track. There are some other variations I can think of, but I'm not going to bother mentioning them.
It all comes down to this.. take an illusionist to virtually any zone or area they can flee from, and they can solo the fights and use just a couple other people for addional spellups (heals/stones etc). I don't like suggestiong downgrades, but doesn't somebody think something is wrong with that?
Illusionist basically solos, with other people there to provide spellups... kost and his friends therefore don't track. There are some other variations I can think of, but I'm not going to bother mentioning them.
It all comes down to this.. take an illusionist to virtually any zone or area they can flee from, and they can solo the fights and use just a couple other people for addional spellups (heals/stones etc). I don't like suggestiong downgrades, but doesn't somebody think something is wrong with that?
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
The bottom line is this: Kostichie was not designed to be killed by 3 people, under no circumstance.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not? I always thought it was challenge vs. reward that was the design of the game. Corth and his small band took huge risks and used a great amount of ingenuity to accomplish a great reward. I see nothing wrong with that situation.
This game is made in such a way that the intelligence of the player has to make up for the power of the mob. Without our human intelligence, and our ability to exploit the lack of that in our artificial friends, a group of player characters would never succeed in almost any battle.
Kostchtchie is a very powerful mob. It takes a great amount of courage and thought to even dream about tackling him in a group of 3 people, much less succeed. But in the end, it is just a stupid machine that we're fighting against, and I'm sure that several different 3 man teams could, with the right doses of dedication, intelligence, and strength, defeat him.
The only reason this is even an issue is because no one else has even tried. "Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it isn't possible." Try it with every possible group combination of three. If you can't find another one that can accomplish the same feat, then maybe there might be something to look at. Until then, I think Illusionists are fine the way they are.
-Todrael
The bottom line is this: Kostichie was not designed to be killed by 3 people, under no circumstance.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why not? I always thought it was challenge vs. reward that was the design of the game. Corth and his small band took huge risks and used a great amount of ingenuity to accomplish a great reward. I see nothing wrong with that situation.
This game is made in such a way that the intelligence of the player has to make up for the power of the mob. Without our human intelligence, and our ability to exploit the lack of that in our artificial friends, a group of player characters would never succeed in almost any battle.
Kostchtchie is a very powerful mob. It takes a great amount of courage and thought to even dream about tackling him in a group of 3 people, much less succeed. But in the end, it is just a stupid machine that we're fighting against, and I'm sure that several different 3 man teams could, with the right doses of dedication, intelligence, and strength, defeat him.
The only reason this is even an issue is because no one else has even tried. "Just because it hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it isn't possible." Try it with every possible group combination of three. If you can't find another one that can accomplish the same feat, then maybe there might be something to look at. Until then, I think Illusionists are fine the way they are.
-Todrael
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I love it when people take my examples and pretend like they wouldn't work for their own amusement. I never said you had to clear astral. All it takes is luck. Like the luck they had of not having to fight Kost with his weapon, or the luck or not getting crit'd to death in one round, or etc etc etc. I gave the example of Astral as a possibility. It is possible. It is workable. Heck, maybe you knew another group that was clearing astral that day, and you decided to take advantage of that since they didn't know Kost loaded.
It isn't the 'normal' idea of run into the room, fight the mob, die or win. This is why I pointed out it takes a brain to do these fights. It isn't even something most people would consider a viable option. But neither is sending one mage against 4 giants. In fact, to me, it seems just as ridiculous a proposition. One way obviously succeeded. Who's to say the other wouldn't? Or that a hundred other ways that haven't been proposed wouldn't also work?
-Todrael
It isn't the 'normal' idea of run into the room, fight the mob, die or win. This is why I pointed out it takes a brain to do these fights. It isn't even something most people would consider a viable option. But neither is sending one mage against 4 giants. In fact, to me, it seems just as ridiculous a proposition. One way obviously succeeded. Who's to say the other wouldn't? Or that a hundred other ways that haven't been proposed wouldn't also work?
-Todrael
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Lalsed:
<B> Todrael, the other two members don't have to do damage, they can sit out and heal/spellup the illusionist while he does runs, so the mob would never have a reason to track them.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
These tactics are already employed regularly to do mobs. They did not arise because of illusionists. If these are twinky tactics, then perhaps tanks in single file rooms shouldn't get spell-ups, heals, stones when they flee out. too twinky. =p
I disagree entirely with this thread. I've seen how quickly an illusionist can get spanked.
The illusionist we've seen mentioned the most is corth. With his spells AND GEAR, he can tank. I hate to tell you this, but I've done exp in gloomhaven with a cleric tanking and (prior to shieldblock) doing a damn fine job of it.
Given the right gear and a good group, that knows what it's doing, just about any class can tank.
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·Kuurg·
<B> Todrael, the other two members don't have to do damage, they can sit out and heal/spellup the illusionist while he does runs, so the mob would never have a reason to track them.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
These tactics are already employed regularly to do mobs. They did not arise because of illusionists. If these are twinky tactics, then perhaps tanks in single file rooms shouldn't get spell-ups, heals, stones when they flee out. too twinky. =p
I disagree entirely with this thread. I've seen how quickly an illusionist can get spanked.
The illusionist we've seen mentioned the most is corth. With his spells AND GEAR, he can tank. I hate to tell you this, but I've done exp in gloomhaven with a cleric tanking and (prior to shieldblock) doing a damn fine job of it.
Given the right gear and a good group, that knows what it's doing, just about any class can tank.
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·Kuurg·
It's not like the strategy for soloing Kostchtchie could be all that hard for an illusionist. For starters, stand 2 rooms away from him and his band. Summon up a shadow. Displace the illusionist and the shadow. Stone the illusionist and the shadow. Vit the illusionist and the shadow. Cast mislead on yourself. Cast mirror image <--- This is the clincher. Send shadow into room with kostchtchie, run in after it, blast kostchtchie once, run out. Any area spells you get hit by will be most likely absorbed by the mirror images. If you get injured by the off chance that mirror image fails, run back to your cleric/shaman and get a heal. Repeat. All this takes is a lot of patience. Without the hammer, none of those mobs are going to be bashing you. With the hammer, it's only a slight chance that Kostchtchie will bash you. None of them are clerics, so with enough runs, he'll eventually die, you loot up his stuff, and off you go. Did I hit the nail on the head?
Yayaril
Yayaril
Ilsha:
just to clear something up.. mislead had nothing to do with how we killed kost.. the other two members of the group were aggro kost and at least for the first 10 minutes of our fight he was tracking us around like nuts.
And its not as if there was no risk. I was at -8 hps at one point for like 20 seconds as kosty healed himself in the room.
And I was not the only one of the three attacking kosty.. so should the classes of the other two people there be downgraded too?
Not gonna comment on dornax's motivation for making this post.. it should be obvious to people who were around at the time...
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-02-2001).]
just to clear something up.. mislead had nothing to do with how we killed kost.. the other two members of the group were aggro kost and at least for the first 10 minutes of our fight he was tracking us around like nuts.
And its not as if there was no risk. I was at -8 hps at one point for like 20 seconds as kosty healed himself in the room.
And I was not the only one of the three attacking kosty.. so should the classes of the other two people there be downgraded too?
Not gonna comment on dornax's motivation for making this post.. it should be obvious to people who were around at the time...
Corth
[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-02-2001).]
The only thing I dislike about illusionists are their damage spells. Not that I don't believe they should have them, but the way they are written (no offense shevy).
I like the D&D concept of having shadow magic attack spells, that have two saving throws..one to determine if the illusion is detected (which severely downs the spell) and then one for half damage.
Personally, I think the illusionist class has done a great job of taking up the reins of the sorcerer class. Except that with its spells being independent of enchanters/invokers they seem to just provide the stack effect. Instead of being the middle ground of the two, they make a 3 pronged attack.
*rambling*
E
I like the D&D concept of having shadow magic attack spells, that have two saving throws..one to determine if the illusion is detected (which severely downs the spell) and then one for half damage.
Personally, I think the illusionist class has done a great job of taking up the reins of the sorcerer class. Except that with its spells being independent of enchanters/invokers they seem to just provide the stack effect. Instead of being the middle ground of the two, they make a 3 pronged attack.
*rambling*
E
Jurdex,
out of the illusionist spells that you listed which supposedly give us some sort of ability to twink stuff, only mirror image and displace were needed. Ok ok, i gated astral to get the group there... your right, thats very unbalancing. *roll*
Trust me, camoflauge and nondetect do not make a difference in killing kosty
2 shaman and a cleric could have done the same exact thing with kosty. I guess shaman are a twink class too. And clerics!
I think your just a little embarrased because kosty spanked the 15 person group you were in 3 times when you tried brute force, and then a 3 person group was able to kill him using strategy.
Corth
out of the illusionist spells that you listed which supposedly give us some sort of ability to twink stuff, only mirror image and displace were needed. Ok ok, i gated astral to get the group there... your right, thats very unbalancing. *roll*
Trust me, camoflauge and nondetect do not make a difference in killing kosty
2 shaman and a cleric could have done the same exact thing with kosty. I guess shaman are a twink class too. And clerics!
I think your just a little embarrased because kosty spanked the 15 person group you were in 3 times when you tried brute force, and then a 3 person group was able to kill him using strategy.
Corth
It's my opinion that Illusionists are a well balanced class, but as mentioned in another thread, some things could use a little tweaking. Mirror image is probably the only thing I know of that could use any tweakage, in my opinion (just an opinion). Area spells don't seem to hit it correctly, although I also doubt that that was a factor in the situation that started this whole thing.
I am not against PC downgrades as a rule. I'm against 'fixing' things that aren't broken. I have suggested changes to classes that have been implemented that would be considered downgrades. I have agreed with the downgrade to mislead, and am also thinking that mirror image could use a look at. Personal attacks are not the way to argue your point.
-Todrael
I am not against PC downgrades as a rule. I'm against 'fixing' things that aren't broken. I have suggested changes to classes that have been implemented that would be considered downgrades. I have agreed with the downgrade to mislead, and am also thinking that mirror image could use a look at. Personal attacks are not the way to argue your point.
-Todrael
I would like to see classes brought into a balance. Many things have been downgraded. I don't necessarily see a reason for a downgrade here. Not at all. Mislead as I have suggested previously could fall when a mob attacks you. Spells like mirror image could also stand a looking at. That is what I am saying.
Dornax
Jurdex
[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 11-02-2001).]
Dornax
Jurdex
[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 11-02-2001).]
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jurdex:
<B>Corth, you stole kost from us.
Dornax
Jurdex</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And perhaps this is why Dornax is leading the crusade to have illusionists downgraded.
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·Kuurg·
[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 11-02-2001).]
<B>Corth, you stole kost from us.
Dornax
Jurdex</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And perhaps this is why Dornax is leading the crusade to have illusionists downgraded.
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·Kuurg·
[This message has been edited by Kuurg (edited 11-02-2001).]
hahah I stole kost from you?
It was 3:45am, you have been spanked by kosty three times, people are leaving and going to sleep. I ask verarb, the leader of the group, if hes trying again. He says no. Your group is at turning point, all corpses are out of jot. Kosty is fully healed up. Thats some claim you have there dornax..
Corth
It was 3:45am, you have been spanked by kosty three times, people are leaving and going to sleep. I ask verarb, the leader of the group, if hes trying again. He says no. Your group is at turning point, all corpses are out of jot. Kosty is fully healed up. Thats some claim you have there dornax..
Corth
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>I think your just a little embarrased because kosty spanked the 15 person group you were in 3 times when you tried brute force, and then a 3 person group was able to kill him using strategy.
Corth </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dornax shouldn't be embarrassed at all, he wasn't even there for most of it, but he kindly ressed the carnage. Thanks d
<B>I think your just a little embarrased because kosty spanked the 15 person group you were in 3 times when you tried brute force, and then a 3 person group was able to kill him using strategy.
Corth </B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dornax shouldn't be embarrassed at all, he wasn't even there for most of it, but he kindly ressed the carnage. Thanks d
Everyone check this post:
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000907.html
Dornax, when I first read that post I felt like you basically summed up how I felt and how a lot of other people felt about the bickering about a free "game" we all love and enjoy. But after reading this post, I am totally confused. Just have fun man. If you really think they are super powerful just group with one or have a guild member level one up. I really don't think what happened is the norm. The 3 man group had a lot of guts and luck on their side. (No skill though. Those guys suck.) Honestly I feel pretty confident solo'ing Kostch having an illusionist, cleric and enchanter spelling me up and me making runs. In fact I've done him once like that, cept w/o illusionist and having 2 clerics.(The enchanter wasn't even a dscaler.) I can solo Chlora or most outdoor mobs this way. Are rangers too powerful?! Heck I'll tell everyone what I do. I basically stack hp gear and before I go in, I switch to hit/dam mode and flee out when real hurt and repeat the process. I have pass without trace which makes me !track outdoors. A lot of classes can be very powerful with the right blend of eq, levels, skill and guts.
Ladorn Silverlake
Ranger Lord
Darkstorm Rising
PS Please don't downgrade rangers! Hehe.
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000907.html
Dornax, when I first read that post I felt like you basically summed up how I felt and how a lot of other people felt about the bickering about a free "game" we all love and enjoy. But after reading this post, I am totally confused. Just have fun man. If you really think they are super powerful just group with one or have a guild member level one up. I really don't think what happened is the norm. The 3 man group had a lot of guts and luck on their side. (No skill though. Those guys suck.) Honestly I feel pretty confident solo'ing Kostch having an illusionist, cleric and enchanter spelling me up and me making runs. In fact I've done him once like that, cept w/o illusionist and having 2 clerics.(The enchanter wasn't even a dscaler.) I can solo Chlora or most outdoor mobs this way. Are rangers too powerful?! Heck I'll tell everyone what I do. I basically stack hp gear and before I go in, I switch to hit/dam mode and flee out when real hurt and repeat the process. I have pass without trace which makes me !track outdoors. A lot of classes can be very powerful with the right blend of eq, levels, skill and guts.
Ladorn Silverlake
Ranger Lord
Darkstorm Rising
PS Please don't downgrade rangers! Hehe.
I can't comment on most of the details of your posts, but in the interest of self-aggrandizement I'll mention that: With a single cleric out of the room, Mplor the monk killed more than one named dragon alone. With a group of 5, Mplor the Invoker killed Kost. With a team of casters cycling into the room, Saduin the (Toril) paladin killed Kost alone.
I hope I've contributed absolutely nothing to this conversation, except maybe the suggestion that there's very little new under the sun, and there will always be people pushing the code to its utter limits to see how far it goes. The end results of some of those efforts might be illustrated by the following notes:
a) monks were removed from the game,
b) invokers were downgraded (balanced), and c) Saduin used a single-file room (feature, not bug!).
Any regrets? No way. Cheers!
I hope I've contributed absolutely nothing to this conversation, except maybe the suggestion that there's very little new under the sun, and there will always be people pushing the code to its utter limits to see how far it goes. The end results of some of those efforts might be illustrated by the following notes:
a) monks were removed from the game,
b) invokers were downgraded (balanced), and c) Saduin used a single-file room (feature, not bug!).
Any regrets? No way. Cheers!
5 man kost was not too unbeliveable on toril, as warriors were far more powerful, sorc=invoker+enchanter. only needed war/cleric/sorc to kill most things. monks added damage since spell damage was nil.
NOW we need warrior/cleric/enc/inv/rogue/illus at the minimum
so a three man team, with the new state of the mud, killing a rare that took a 5 man team on toril to do at the minimum, is a huge difference, and insane
NOW we need warrior/cleric/enc/inv/rogue/illus at the minimum
so a three man team, with the new state of the mud, killing a rare that took a 5 man team on toril to do at the minimum, is a huge difference, and insane
Grintor- neither a rogue nor an invoker is _needed_ for just about anything.
You can also substitute a shaman for a cleric/enchanter combo if absolutely needed.
Oh, and did I mention that a side-effect of all the spellup spells that are new with sojourn3 is that casters can tank nearly as well as tanks now?
An illusionist isn't really overpowered with a kit of average eq.
But that same illusionist with over 1000 hps can tank well enough to kill most things without dying when MI/stone drops.
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-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
You can also substitute a shaman for a cleric/enchanter combo if absolutely needed.
Oh, and did I mention that a side-effect of all the spellup spells that are new with sojourn3 is that casters can tank nearly as well as tanks now?
An illusionist isn't really overpowered with a kit of average eq.
But that same illusionist with over 1000 hps can tank well enough to kill most things without dying when MI/stone drops.
------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
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people with superior tactics will always pull shit off that 2x or 3x the folks can't do. I do think there are more opportunities for twink (or amazing victories) now that we have highly specialized classes (invoker, enchanter, illusionist) and that things were actually harder to twink when there were just sorcs.
Either way is fine, I do kinda like the new mages even though I think the game is easier because of them.
Another thing, before we go on about how over powered illusionists are (which I do think are probably on the high end of the power scale), answer this... do you really think that just any 3 people could twink kostichie, or do you think there are extremely few expert players with a lil luck that could pull it off? now, do you think we should change the game because 1% of folks can and do take things to the extreme.
So the reward for superior player skills is your class gets dowgraded and the masses suffer for the superior play of the few? So we agree with folur that because he and his crew can roll jot and other zones super easy because of no 30s spell mem delay that it should be downgraded/reinstated? base game changes on the plight and experience of the masses, not the talented few. maybe there a lil too much jealousy in this thread and not enough substance.
and my jealous rant,
why is it that mounted combat works indoors and can tank milplit/slaver with no dam consistently while a warrior with shieldblock gets owned in 10 rounds or less?
Either way is fine, I do kinda like the new mages even though I think the game is easier because of them.
Another thing, before we go on about how over powered illusionists are (which I do think are probably on the high end of the power scale), answer this... do you really think that just any 3 people could twink kostichie, or do you think there are extremely few expert players with a lil luck that could pull it off? now, do you think we should change the game because 1% of folks can and do take things to the extreme.
So the reward for superior player skills is your class gets dowgraded and the masses suffer for the superior play of the few? So we agree with folur that because he and his crew can roll jot and other zones super easy because of no 30s spell mem delay that it should be downgraded/reinstated? base game changes on the plight and experience of the masses, not the talented few. maybe there a lil too much jealousy in this thread and not enough substance.
and my jealous rant,
why is it that mounted combat works indoors and can tank milplit/slaver with no dam consistently while a warrior with shieldblock gets owned in 10 rounds or less?
I dont see any reason to punish ppl for using good strategies. It certainly shouldnt be called twinking. If they're using the spells or whatever within the rules and intent of the staff then theres no problem. If they're doing something that the staff didn't intend that's a different story and then the staff can decide to make changes. Theres nothing wrong with asking the staff if something is wrong. But its up to them to decide if it fits their vision.
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Izzy / Raev
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Rangers are the key to ultimate success. Try one out today!
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Izzy / Raev
************************
Rangers are the key to ultimate success. Try one out today!
************************
I don't think high level illusionists are overpowered in combat. I do think that gate combined with fold spell makes a druid look pretty damn silly.
The one real thing that bugged me about illusionists is that little invisible pet they have at low level. My warrior, in rather good gear, was grouped with an illusionist. We were both mid twenty. His little pet tanks a kazillion times better than me, and required no healing (just make a new one). *boggle*. It seemed a bit unbalanced at midlevel that the illusionist could summon a pet better than me!
...ok the pet wasn't better than me overall (not much damage), but in the end it means a mid level illusionist can tank stuff (with pet) and deal out WAY more damage etc than a warrior. Made me feel kinda useless tagging along while the 30HP pet tanked...heh.
With regards to the !track spell, ad seqester... I think we need a good exploring class
The downgrade of pass without a trace bugged me, I would cast it prior to a fight as a druid when exploring so if I did get a nasty surprise I might have time to get out of there, now it doesn't last long enough for a fight (note all druid fights are multiple run)...
So if by the time all the uber players have all the good equipment and it is impossible for us regular folk to get anything...will that be balanced?
rant rant hehe....
...I love this game *grins*
Safe travels
The one real thing that bugged me about illusionists is that little invisible pet they have at low level. My warrior, in rather good gear, was grouped with an illusionist. We were both mid twenty. His little pet tanks a kazillion times better than me, and required no healing (just make a new one). *boggle*. It seemed a bit unbalanced at midlevel that the illusionist could summon a pet better than me!
...ok the pet wasn't better than me overall (not much damage), but in the end it means a mid level illusionist can tank stuff (with pet) and deal out WAY more damage etc than a warrior. Made me feel kinda useless tagging along while the 30HP pet tanked...heh.
With regards to the !track spell, ad seqester... I think we need a good exploring class
The downgrade of pass without a trace bugged me, I would cast it prior to a fight as a druid when exploring so if I did get a nasty surprise I might have time to get out of there, now it doesn't last long enough for a fight (note all druid fights are multiple run)...
So if by the time all the uber players have all the good equipment and it is impossible for us regular folk to get anything...will that be balanced?
rant rant hehe....
...I love this game *grins*
Safe travels
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarell:
<B>I don't think high level illusionists are overpowered in combat. I do think that gate combined with fold spell makes a druid look pretty damn silly.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
evils don't have druids. it's actually nice to be able to get a group together with fold.
just take it away from good raced illusionists *duck*
seriously. illusionists should not be compared to druids. If they both can do the same thing, fine! I think there should be a lot of overlap between classes.
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·Kuurg·
<B>I don't think high level illusionists are overpowered in combat. I do think that gate combined with fold spell makes a druid look pretty damn silly.
</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
evils don't have druids. it's actually nice to be able to get a group together with fold.
just take it away from good raced illusionists *duck*
seriously. illusionists should not be compared to druids. If they both can do the same thing, fine! I think there should be a lot of overlap between classes.
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·Kuurg·
An idea: make their shadow magic dependant on an evironmental factor: darkness/nighttime
I really like this idea. It makes sense that if druids need the nature aspect to make there spells work to there fullest, it only makes sense that shadow magic, needs the darkness to work to its fullest.
I mean really, your in the middle of the desert in the scorching heat, sun hanging overhead, and the illusionist is cast shadows around. Then again, I'm not really sure how much of the illusionists magic is consisted of 'shadow' magic.
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Jezlic "follower of Lloth"
I really like this idea. It makes sense that if druids need the nature aspect to make there spells work to there fullest, it only makes sense that shadow magic, needs the darkness to work to its fullest.
I mean really, your in the middle of the desert in the scorching heat, sun hanging overhead, and the illusionist is cast shadows around. Then again, I'm not really sure how much of the illusionists magic is consisted of 'shadow' magic.
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Jezlic "follower of Lloth"
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