Gheals Downgrades unreasonable

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Rokub
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Gheals Downgrades unreasonable

Postby Rokub » Sat Nov 03, 2001 10:11 pm

I have sat back quietly and watched my gheal go from instant casts to 2*'s to now 5*'s this is outright outrageous. I have to sit back and watch appox 2-3 rounds go by when I hit a 5* gheal and watch my Groupmates die constantly. Before people used to die but I could at least save them 50% of the time, now I can't even do that. Padashaw is 1 unreasonable fight because the mobs hit so hard, but watching 5* gheals happen on padashaw is extremely outrageous. I watched 2 people die in the 1st round, I didn't get the gheal off to the 3rd round when 6 people were left in the room and I was at 100hp. The timeing on gheal is very unbalanced now in my opinion, and with the earthquake and such spells now that 'stun' us I seem to lost the ability to EVEN GHEAL AT ALL. In the new zones such at Myth drannor and avernus, there are either tons of mobs in a room or massive clouds coming at us. How is a 5* gheal gunna help the team at all if their ALREADY DEAD? I don't comprehend this at all. Please take what I have said into consideration, I feel my comments are points are valid and have good reason behind them.

Thanks,

Rokub
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Postby Kuurg » Sun Nov 04, 2001 6:16 pm

True!

so painfully true.

After the downgrades I did a bunch of exp and figured, hey, I can still gheal and it's not THAT much longer. Then I went zoning...

What Rokub has pointed out is dead on. Gheal's have been neutered.

I don't want insta-cast for it back in. It would be better with a max of 3 stars on failed qc.



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Postby Corth » Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:06 pm

still can't figure out how shaman's can complain when a spell that can do up to 1400hps of healing has the same chant time as the normal "heal" spell.

Corth
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Nov 04, 2001 8:06 pm

It wasn't that big of a deal at first. We made do because we still had the area damage to work with. Now that areas have been somewhat tempered perhaps it is time to look at gheal once again.

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Postby Corth » Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:22 pm

Ok, if the mud is so difficult and shamans need to cast 1400hp heals in .5 seconds, dont complain when i do kosty in small groups.

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Postby Zoldren » Sun Nov 04, 2001 10:37 pm

Corth always present to bash others and scream murder when anyone blinks wrong at illusionists hah
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Postby Corth » Mon Nov 05, 2001 12:18 am

hey man, I'm the one who was in favor of the mislead downgrade. I was also in favor of the mirror image and nightmare tweaks... after all I was one of the people who "participated" with the gods in trying to figure out how to better balance illusionists.

That being said, what does this conversation have to do with illusionists at all? I was merely pointing out to dornax that in one forum hes complaining about how easy it is to kill kosty in a small group, and in the other forum, implying that the mud is so difficult that gheal should be made instantaneous again. But then, if i relied solely on brute force and no strategy, I would be a big fan of gheal too Image

Corth


[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-04-2001).]
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Nov 05, 2001 12:26 am

I never said gheal should be changed.

This is a shaman/gheal thread, is it not? No one is talking about Kostchtchie or illusionists here.

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Postby Nassis » Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:09 am

Corth (and others), gheal is a unique spell that does something vital in many situations. Without it, many fights become pretty much impossible (to do in "non-twink" ways (I want to write a long rant here...)).

With a too long casting time, it becomes impossible to keep up with area-damage output from mobs, and people die in droves.


Longer casting time do very little to shaman power, the spell is still pretty much vital, but it does have a big effect on group suvivability.
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Postby Corth » Mon Nov 05, 2001 4:49 am

If the problem is people taking too much area damage under the current setup, why not lower area damage rather than up gheal? Gheal, imho, is absolutely the most powerful combat spell in the game (excludes ressurect, spirit walk, etc). 1400 possible hps of healing in one shot. The only thing that limits it is the amount of time it takes to mem it and cast it.

If mobs are doing too much damage, why don't people consider toning that part of the equation down?

Or how about making mob areas subject to the same limitations as players? I haven't yet seen a player be out of the scope of an area yet.

Corth
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Postby Grintor » Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:31 am

mobs ARE doing too much damage, we've been over that, however you disagreed with that assessment.

gheal at 3 stars, 1 star if qc is not unreasonable. that 90hp i get healed by it is nothing to any mobe over level 40 just melee, not to mention spell damage.
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Postby Jezlic » Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:43 am

Question...

Does the gheal, heal up to 1400 hp regardless of how many are in the group, or is it like 90 per person...
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Postby Corth » Mon Nov 05, 2001 5:53 am

Gheal isn't for keeping tanks alive.. its for keeping the group healed after areas and breath.. granted it doesn't hurt to get healed 90 hps, but a 400 hp full heal is much better. Clerics on the other hand aren't equipped to heal an entire group after a breath or area. So you want to basically replace clerics, who's only role is to heal people, with shamans huh?

Corth
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Nov 05, 2001 7:32 am

You can't point out a spells MAX potential, and base the equality of the spell on that. If we did such things, nightmare would be downgraded cause it stuns EVERY mob, Prism would be yanked cause it para's every mob. Shamans do the least damage of the upgraded classes. When gheal had * or ** for casting time, that was not unbalanced. Now coming up with a consistant ***** is just silly. It CAN heal 1400 hps, but truthfully 75% of the time, it heals 800 or so.

Shamans job is to gheal. Its been this way for 3 wipes. Why nuke their main job?

P.s. If you dont play the class corth, please dont pretend you know something about it.
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Postby Galok Icewolf » Mon Nov 05, 2001 7:36 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>Gheal isn't for keeping tanks alive.. its for keeping the group healed after areas and breath.. granted it doesn't hurt to get healed 90 hps, but a 400 hp full heal is much better. Clerics on the other hand aren't equipped to heal an entire group after a breath or area. So you want to basically replace clerics, who's only role is to heal people, with shamans huh?

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I haven't seen a drop in clerics, I've actually seen a drop in shamans. I guess they had thier role nuked by your rational.

Shamans have never replaced clerics. They were always a boon to help them out. A gheal to keep the tank alive so a fheal will land and make sure the tank lives. If you cant understand that, I feel sorry for you.
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Postby rylan » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:04 pm

We've actually been taking 2 shamans a lot lately to compensate for the longer casting time.. and with 2 of them cycling gheals we still get spanked around Image

Personally I think a 5 star cast is a bit much.. I'd suggest changing the full chant time to 4 stars, and keep the QC chant at 2 stars.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Nov 05, 2001 1:26 pm

Gheal is a very powerful spell! And yes, powerful spells take longer to cast. Your just going to have learn to deal with it :P. Start using some more initiative and start casting your gheals earlier than waiting until the mob casts an area spell like in the days of the old.

Also, lets not forget about POTIONS/SCROLLS/STAVES/WANDS.

Are you guys are only depending on spells for healing when doing hard zones? If so, I recommend getting back to the basics.

Afterall, the world is full of potions and stuff.

[This message has been edited by Ilshadrial (edited 11-05-2001).]
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Postby Wobb » Mon Nov 05, 2001 7:36 pm

I've had the pleasure to group with a shaman just about everyday since the wipe. I've watched her class get downgraded, again and again.

At first, I wasn't sure what she was upset about, because, Gheal is a very powerful spell. And there were several other shaman imbalances. However, I do agree that the Gheal downgrade is too much. Something must be altered.

The change to Gheal did 2 things. First of all, you nuked a shaman <46's ability to gheal at all. I would never bring a shaman at level 45 because the spell is fallible. Before, it wasn't fallible. Also, the longer chant time does make it difficult to gauge when to use your gheal.

This is based mostly on my own perception of fire damage and trolls. Other area spells, although very harmful, are never as fatal as incend is to a troll. Nugg may not decide to cast a gheal if a "lesser" (if you will) area spell was cast. If the group is all vitted, has 600+ hps still, she probably won't use it yet, because she may need it later.

Well, half the problem, is you don't always see what spell is a mob is casting. I think its ridiculous to say "well just start casting sooner". That is not strategy, that is wasting spells now. Pair this with the UNEQUIVOCAL BASTARDIZED UPGRADE to earthquake (bows) and you have Ogre and Troll shamans hitting their ass ALOT, never able to finish their 5 or 6 star gheals.

3 stars... I don't think that's asking too much.

Wobb
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Postby Kuurg » Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:10 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>So you want to basically replace clerics, who's only role is to heal people, with shamans huh?

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Oh this is such bullshit. How many years have shamans had gheal for?! How many years have they NOT replaced clerics?! When you have a valid comment to make instead of fear-mongering, make it.

Corth, I know you're not new to the mud, so tell me why you'd say this.


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Postby Kuurg » Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:13 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
<B>Pair this with the UNEQUIVOCAL BASTARDIZED UPGRADE to earthquake (bows) and you have Ogre and Troll shamans hitting their ass ALOT, never able to finish their 5 or 6 star gheals.

3 stars... I don't think that's asking too much.

Wobb

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. Malice fight anyone? Anyone who's been in a group I've been in can probably attest to the fact that I'm pretty much guaranteed not to get a single gheal off after he dies.



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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:24 pm

Go quest/find the potions/wands/staves ect that is also available in the game. Geez, you can even buy them in stores.

It is just plain lazy to constantly rely on gheals for zoneage when the spell has finally had some feasible limitations placed on it.

Yeah gheal was so fast to cast you never failed it, that alone sounds like geez that spell is bogus!

Gheal is still a very nice spell, and it has great benefits to the group.

Sure trolls take massive damage to fire, then look at the grey elf, they basically die to 2 areas no matter what it is.

Get those potions, and you be better off. Sure the limitation of 5 potions in a 26 min period is still in effect, but those 5 and gheal should be ample to do the hard fights.

And yep, I have played an ogre shaman to level 50 before spirits were even in game, and I loved gheal!
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Postby rylan » Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:46 pm

Problem is a double cure crit potion isn't gonna save your ass :P

Remember, most (if not all) healing potions/staffs were nerfed down to cure crit or worse.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Mon Nov 05, 2001 8:55 pm

Your right the easy to get shimmering blue/black potion/glowing potion were downgraded, but I can name 6 off hand that are still heal or better. A double cure crit potion heals way better now since the healing spells were upped in general and have saved my ass several times.

Just have to get back out there and dig them long forgotten potions up.
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Postby Jurdex » Mon Nov 05, 2001 9:44 pm

Ilshad, we're almost forced to use staves and the like even with a ghealer and sometimes two. Image We're aware there are items to be used..

However, at what point do you draw the line? There are vit potions. That doesn't mean people should have to buy those so I can pray eight heals, right?

Dornax
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[This message has been edited by Jurdex (edited 11-05-2001).]
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Postby Grintor » Tue Nov 06, 2001 2:50 am

...and not everyone is privy to that information, ilshad.

i been here quite a while and reading your post i said to my self 'wtf is he talking about? what potions?'

and why should hours and hours of questing for staves/wands/potions/etc. be required to do brass?

we cant ALL plan weeks in advance of doing what was once considered a regular zone. and we dont all have access to that information, since it's so TABOO to share info with anyone in this game.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 06, 2001 6:11 am

it's all about timing your gheal. yea u just took an area, but you should have casted it around the time u saw a mob casting incendiary cloud. and if you're low on hps, just run.
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Postby Lalsed » Tue Nov 06, 2001 6:23 am

Don't you think it could be a problem tho if say you did not fail quickchant, but mob did? Then your gheal is off, and it's a waste. Or if mob is casting, and gets shieldpunched, and you waste one. Thing is you can't always know when you will get hit by an area, or dragon breath(which does a lot more damage now). I agree, timing is a good thing that I guess some shamans need to work on, but you just can't time everything. Oh well, just my 2 cents, maybe I'm wrong as hell Image

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Postby Malacar » Tue Nov 06, 2001 7:28 am

Wait... Mobs can fail quick chant? Holy cow. I'd never believe it, cuz I don't think I have ever seen it. :P
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Nov 06, 2001 9:40 am

Rokub -

Point taken, I'll look into it.

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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:03 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Corth:
<B>still can't figure out how shaman's can complain when a spell that can do up to 1400hps of healing has the same chant time as the normal "heal" spell.

Corth</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not about the numbers. It's "my job is to save people from death, I am high level and thus should be reasonably ok at it, and with the new changes, I am not."

And many agree the normal heal spell is really long, from a highlevel efficiency perspective.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:04 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Jezlic:
<B>Question...

Does the gheal, heal up to 1400 hp regardless of how many are in the group, or is it like 90 per person...

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, this is the misinformation that that statement breeds, Corth. Gheal only does potential 1400hps because it does 90ish / person, for 15 people in max conditions.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Nov 08, 2001 5:08 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Ilshadrial:
Get those potions, and you be better off. </font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Potions are not a reliable strat for long zoning... and it takes a lot of time to get that many useful pots for 4 hrs, say. Should people call off things because some people didn't have the time to amass 16 potions? Plus, it's terribly biased against newer mudders. Do you mean that the time invested in spell quests is better invested in getting heal items?

Hmmm....
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 08, 2001 10:47 pm

potions and staves shouldnt be common enough and powerful enough to count on as a strategy imo. even with teh quaff limit i think its out of control. zones/fights shouldnt be designed to be doable only if you got a stockpile of pendants/staves/potions.
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Postby Malacar » Fri Nov 09, 2001 6:38 am

Moritheil, jesus.

Respond with a single post to multiple people. Stop posting to up your numbers. :P

Afore I whap you!
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Postby Wargo » Fri Nov 09, 2001 9:05 am

Well as a cleric and sometimes the only cleric in a zoning group, I admit that gheals have helped me save the tanks plenty of times. However, I don't see a max 5 star gheal is much of a downgrade. With 5 star casting time, 80% of the time you can get it out with only 1 round in between. Now add in quick chant, regardless of the race's intellligence, you should be able to get it off 95% of the time with only 1 round in between. That is not a very long time. Most incendiary clouds takes longer to come out. Besides, if a second incendiary cloud does come out, I don't think that one gheal will save the troll.

Now if you look at clerics. Their most important spell Full Heal has a minimum 3 star casting time and a maximum of 7 stars. 3 star casting time guarantees one round in between no matter how you cast it. And if you fail quick chant and get a 7 star, it will guarantee 2 rounds in between. Now, consider how hard the mobs can hit, almost all the time clerics have to start casting full heal before the tank actually needs one. We have learned to do this, why can't the shamans? You may argue that you can't tell what spell is coming. But I ask you, how do you tell if a mob is going to crit you? A tank has only a few scratches and has dragonscale up, do you full heal? A tank has small wounds and has a stoneskin up, do you full heal? The answer in many cases is you do. However, it is also possible that a tank can have 500/700hp without stone/dragonscale/displacement/blur and you still don't have to heal because the tank can dodge/parry/riposte/shieldblock for a few more rounds.

To heal or not to heal? This is the question that constantly bombards the clerics in a group. Their decision is usually what makes them a good or bad cleric. Now, the shaman class was a no brainer class with the !star casting time. The 3 star was a bit tougher but still not too bad because you can still hit that 1 star with quick chant and you'll hardly see any difference. With a 5 star casting time, then we will really see who are the good shamans. It is knowledge and experience that builds up a cleric's ability. It is time that shamans do it too. Learn which mobs quakes, which mobs clouds, and which mob thunderblasts instead of clouding.

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Postby moritheil » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:50 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>Moritheil, jesus.

Respond with a single post to multiple people. Stop posting to up your numbers. :P

Afore I whap you!</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh sorry... it's just that I read halfway, get stopped to reply to 1-2 threads that sparked a burning need in me to say something, and then read more and need to reply again. =P

I suppose if I weren't away from home all the time I could open a word editor and compile my messages... but I am usually not at home =(

Mal, does this count as the big J answering your invocation of His name? Indirectly? Image
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Postby Malacar » Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:32 pm

*laughs*

I needed that, Mori, thanks. Image

For the record, I have no formal religion. So I doubt it. Image

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