Invokers and Magic Resistance

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Maladryn
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Invokers and Magic Resistance

Postby Maladryn » Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:39 am

Well this time around I decided to play an invoker and so far I like it, however, I think a few things should be evaluated with regards to this class.

First of all Enchanters get tons of protection spells, however, they also get constriction, prismatic spray, etc which are some pretty nice offensive spells.

Invokers get all offense and no protection spells, which is fine, but if you're going to be fair about things, then remove Enchanter's offensive spells completely.

I read the help file on the Sand Storm spell. While the description sounds slightly overpowering, after thinking about it again it might be nice for the same spell to be in the game as a single target spell rather than an area spell with the same effects, and monstrous damage since it would be a single target 10th circle spell. Currently we have only 1 10th circle spell that is only an area spell. To be a truly 'offensive' class, we should have a single target 10th circle as well.

Also, because my dodge maxes at 25, I cannot EVER tank any mob. I took 514 hps of damage from (1) hit the other day (probably more) but I don't know how much it really was because I died instantly and had no chance of being rescued.

I think invokers should either have SOME protection skills added, or some side effects of some of our spells should be possible such as blindness, paralyzation, or even the chance to completely kill a mob just like rogues have the chance to do. These things should be balanced and the chances should be low but we should have some way to protect ourselves, OR we should be the ultimate in damage among all classes. Currently rogues, and illusionists are pretty high up on the damage list with us and rogues experience table is a joke compared to ours.

Also, adding the area save was a long time coming, but taking NO damage in some cases? I think this should have been targeted to other classes, not invokers. Our offensive magic should be greatly more powerful than other area-casters.

One more thing before I end this post, a lot more mobs in the world have magic resistance today, as they should, however, without a flux spell there are certain mobs I can't EVER hit with a spell, or very rarely. With damage being my only job at all, I should be able to hit these mobs where other offensive casters should not. I should be able to do significant damage to dragons, demons, angels, wraiths, etc.

Please look into some of these things as I feel my class is greatly imbalanced in comparison to Illusionists/Enchanters.

Maladryn

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Postby Retark » Sat Nov 10, 2001 5:45 am

right on the money
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Postby Nida » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:30 am

The only spell I have in my constant repertoire that doesn't do damage is minor creation-- and that's only to satiate my rumbly tummy. The only other non-damage spell I ever use is invisibility, and that's so I can keep the aggro bastards from hounding me while I'm going to get my corpse.

My role in groups is clear cut and never changes, no matter what level I am-- nuke the mobs' asses. No problem wit dat. I don't mind bringing the smack in the least. Trouble being that if I'm soloing, which I have to do a lot, I can't bring said smack against anything more than one or two levels higher than myself, and that's generally with luck. I just turned lv14 and found I could actually kill things that con "lucky punk"-- in four or five passes, if they don't regen very fast and don't crit constantly. I'm not supposed to be a tank, I know. I'm a friggin' mage, for God's sake. But I have to do a _lot_ of solo work, and it would really help out if I could even cast a minor armor spell on myself once in a while...

-Nida
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Postby Khalil » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:34 am

I'm with Maladryn I've played an invoker last wipe and this wipe and I have to say that magic resistance needs some tweaking for invokers. I can cast 15 offensive spells per mob and around the same amount goes through as an enchanter or any other magic using class, where is the advantage for invokers, the most powerful offensive magic based class? I also agree we should have a single target spell in 9th or 10th circle. I'm all for areas but in zones with a lot of single mob HARD hitting fights or even in semi large fights like Loki in Jot they're not of much use at all thus killing the one thing I always thought invokers were meant for, knocking down big mobs in big groups using big spells in a big hurry =) This wipe rogues/para seems to be a big thing for fighting groups of big mobs, what good is an area spell in these cases? If I area I disrupt 2 mobs from thier para take 700 hps of damage in one round and die a horrible death.

I'm thinking a single target spell in 9th or 10th circle that has an above average chance of getting through a shrugging mobs defense, does a decent amount of damage with some sort of a perk would be a nice addition.

And one last thing, why do I have Slowness, I've never used it once and I've asked other vokers neither have they....that ones been bugging me since i got the circle =)

I'll get off my soapbox now.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:40 am

Some comments.

1) Enchanters don't really get much in the way of offense. Prismatic spray has some nice effects, but doesn't do very much damage. Constriction is good for an enchanter, but pales in comparison to Invoker single target spells. In any case, the classes aren't in competition, they each have very clearly defined roles.

2) The idea for a single target sandstorm is good, I'll consider it.

3) You shouldn't be tanking. Image Though, that 514+ hit was definitely a crit, so it's not really a good barometer.

4) You do have secondary effects on some spells. Blazing beam blinds, thunderblast stuns...and inferno, um, burns? A few more spells like that could be nice I suppose, but..not sure it's really neccessary.

5) I don't really see how illusionists could even compete with invokers for damage...they have nothing resembling the big area spells of invokers, nor the single target granddaddy - force missiles. Same with the other casting classes..although some come close (necros and liches in particular), no *spell casting* class can deal out as much damage as an Invoker. Rogues, well, that's another story, and I'm not prepared to comment on that now.

6) The chance for mobs to take NO damage is relatively low. Also, Invokers get an inherent areasave bonus above all other classes. In other words, an Invoker's areas will hit more mobs than the other classes' areas.

7) As for Magic Resistance...well, this might need tweaking, I promise to check into it further.

Finally, though I realize I ende dup refuting some of your points in this point, I do agree that there are some imbalances within the Invoker class, and they will be addressed.

My current plan is to finish and introduce Elementalists, then proceed to do a once-over on all the other Mage classes and fix them up whereever needed - hopefully resulting in a set of 5 Mage classes that balance each other out as near to perfectly as possible. Until then I can only ask you to be patient, and continue with constructivie posts such as this one. Image





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Postby Maladryn » Sat Nov 10, 2001 6:57 am

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">1) Enchanters don't really get much in the way of offense. Prismatic spray has some nice effects, but doesn't do very much damage. Constriction is good for an enchanter, but pales in comparison to Invoker single target spells. In any case, the classes aren't in competition, they each have very clearly defined roles.</font>


Right, but my point was we get NO defense but enchanters have defense and offense. I wasn't comparing their offense to ours.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">2) The idea for a single target sandstorm is good, I'll consider it.</font>


Thanks! I think it would be really cool.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">4) You do have secondary effects on some spells. Blazing beam blinds, thunderblast stuns...and inferno, um, burns? A few more spells like that could be nice I suppose, but..not sure it's really neccessary.</font>


Pris has all of these in ONE spell. Shouldn't we have more spells with effects or greater chances? Blazing beam blinds RARELY, mostly only on undead. Thunderblast is nice but NOTHING compared to the stun that Nightmare has.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">5) I don't really see how illusionists could even compete with invokers for damage...they have nothing resembling the big area spells of invokers, nor the single target granddaddy - force missiles. Same with the other casting classes..although some come close (necros and liches in particular), no *spell casting* class can deal out as much damage as an Invoker. Rogues, well, that's another story, and I'm not prepared to comment on that now.</font>


I wouldn't call force missiles a granddaddy, it's ok but we need something higher circle. Also, Illusionists Nightmare stuns more than any of our offensive spells and deals a nice amount of damage.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">6) The chance for mobs to take NO damage is relatively low.</font>


Really? I've even had the animals east of TP take 0 damage. Kinda strange that level 2 and 3 mobs would save this if it is relatively low.


<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Also, Invokers get an inherent areasave bonus above all other classes. In other words, an Invoker's areas will hit more mobs than the other classes' areas.</font>


Yes I agree, this part was nicely done.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">7) As for Magic Resistance...well, this might need tweaking, I promise to check into it further.</font>


I don't even ENTER on dragon fights most of the time because I simply don't hurt them. I should be dealing more damage and appreciate you looking into it.

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Postby Nida » Sat Nov 10, 2001 7:04 am

Shev, can Nida dual-class as an invoker/priestess of Shevarash? After all that bitching elsewhere about no god response to concerns brought up on the BBS, you go and whip off responses to every damn thread, where a normal person would have just said "f*** it"-- and your responses are all nice and coherent and understanding. I think my little invoker just found a new religion. Image

-Nida
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Postby Malacar » Sat Nov 10, 2001 7:41 am

Maladryn:

Pris does all that, but it's random. Counting on one from a spell is folly. If you removed the damage beams from it, I'd say it is in balance. Our job is status effects, whether protective or reductive.

If you get the gods to fix enchanter exp so we got exp for enchantment spells, I would have -absolutely- no problem removing all our offensive spells(with the exception of the change in pris above, and changing blacklight to an area slowness spell as per slowness, with a slightly higher chance to slow than it currently has, but less than the slowness spell itself).

Until the enchanter exp bonuses are fixed, removing enchanter damage spells would make the class all but impossible to level.
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Postby Dalar » Sat Nov 10, 2001 9:10 am

i thought conflagaration was to replace sandstorm? where did that go. and can invokers get a cold based area like inferno that destroys fire shield? god i'd love that
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Postby Bopple » Sat Nov 10, 2001 9:54 am

Nightmare damage is reduced - which on par with bigbys now. And it damages only the single target, but stuns those in the room. And the stun rate is a little bit higher than that of thunderblast but not significantly higher.

[This message has been edited by Bopple (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Nov 10, 2001 2:46 pm

I think fireshield and coldshield are perfect examples of an "invoker"-type defense, as opposed to enchanter-type spells which are purely protective. Of course, shield or no yer still gonna die if yer tanking.

How about if invoker's had these two spells beefed in duration and effect such that any mob attacking the invoker in a group situation would be force-switched to somebody else, being unable to take the increased damage. Sure, someone else might die, but it'll save the mage. Image

In fact I think this is the right way to go if Invoker's require defense:

Another shield spell which has a good chance to minor para mobs attacking the Invoker. Minor para <=> not really a solo spell, but will be effective in saving the Invoker from insta aggro walkin death. The para effect can be of especially short duration (10 - 20 seconds) to prevent twinkage yet allow a group to take care of properly engaging said mob.

Instead of having offense spells with a side effect on the mob, offense spells with a defensive side effect on the caster. The virtue of this is that the protection can be relatively powerful because this will be a random effect and hence not reliable.

Well, there's a few brainstorms... anwyay, I find the ideas appealing. Image



[This message has been edited by Dezzex (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Postby Todrael » Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:00 pm

Invokers aren't invokers until level 50 and they get inferno. I don't know if any of the ideas above will fix this, but if you aren't level 50, then you don't really know their power, and any comparisons to other classes will be greatly skewed. I didn't think this was the case either until I actually saw the difference between a level 45 invoker and a level 50 invoker with inferno. It's absolutely staggering.

If you want a spell that destroys fire shield, you'll be sorely disappointed when 4/5 of the mobs you use it against retain their shield. I happen to have such a spell as a lich, and trust me, I hardly ever cast it, if ever.

Also note that it is 10th circle direct damage. My 8th circle spell does considerably more damage, which I assume might be the case even if Invokers got it, since they receive Force Missiles. As far as I can tell, spells that take subsequent levels to gain power (extra missiles) do quite a bit more than spells one or two circles above them. Anyways, 10th circle direct damage isn't all it's cracked up to be.

-Todrael
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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:18 pm

Actually during alpha they got rid of Sandstorm and Acid Storm, and put in Conflaguration and Acid Bolt. Did the gods forget about these spells? They were pretty nifty and if actually put in would help with having high level single target spells.

Cheers.
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Postby Corth » Sat Nov 10, 2001 3:47 pm

Whistle

This is the kind of thread you get after taking a sorcerer class that had a nice mix of protection and offense, and splitting it into two.

So you got invokers who do all sorts of offense.. but kind of wish they could stretch their abilities with something a little more interesting

And enchanters bogged down casting 4 different prep spell on each tank before a fight.. and meming out a good part of the fight itself.

Maladryn: What would you think about doing slightly less damage but in exchange getting a useful defensive spell?

Malacar: What would you think about losing a protective spell such as.. blur.. and getting a nifty mid circle damage spell?

God I love playing an illusionist Image

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-10-2001).]
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Postby Malacar » Sun Nov 11, 2001 1:03 am

It depends, Corth.

Blur is a very useful, and needed, spell. Personally, I don't see the need for enchanters to have offensive spells, except for fun and that glaring fact that we only get exp for damage, not protective. And there is already an offensive spell in Blur's circle. Cone of (woopty do!) cold.

I guess I don't understand the context of the question. I wanted less damage spells. But only at the expense of effort to get enchanters the exp they need and deserve for casting so many frigging protective spells all the time.
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Postby Nida » Sun Nov 11, 2001 2:50 am

*whimper* But fireshield and coldshield are so far away for a little lowbie like me! Why can't we just unbalance invokers completely so that there's twoclasses that can solo to 50? Image Give invokers a -60 AC second-circle armor spell!

-Nida "Twinkbait"
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Postby Corth » Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:22 am

Actually.. Im still trying to figure out how blur is conceptually different from displace...

But hey, if you dont mind casting all your spells.. before.. the fight, who am i to complain? Image

Corth

[This message has been edited by Corth (edited 11-11-2001).]
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Postby Malacar » Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:58 am

True Corth. I only cast blur when a big fight comes up, or am low on stones. It seems to help stretch them a tad.

In the D&D universe(yes this isn't D&D, but just giving a comparison), blur is a lesser form of displace. Blur gives the opponent a 20% miss chance, while displace gives a 50% miss chance. So in effect, they do the same thing, and technically should not be able to stack. I doubt on the mud they do, but since I really don't know the exact specifics of either spell, I will refrain from saying what they -actually- do.
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Postby Grintor » Sun Nov 11, 2001 6:21 pm

well i made my enchanter cause i wanted to be casting all the protect spells.

i blur on everything, even just xp because it makes me have to stone less often. it's nowhere near as powerful as displace. crap, displace is in many ways more powerful than stone.

enchanter offense not all that great, as they have crap xp table to make up for it.
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Postby Vipplin » Sun Nov 11, 2001 8:37 pm

1. Blur makes your outline hazy. Displace makes you actually look like you are someplace else.

2. As you continue to fight and watch someone with displace on, you figure out where they really are, hence the decreasing effectiveness over time like stoneskin getting chipped. Blur stays just as effective throughout the duration which is not dependent on whether someone is attacking you.

Did I miss anything?

Vadian
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Postby Zoldren » Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:24 pm

I posted something along this line along time ago Image
1) I was told sandstorm and acid blast where converted to other spells /classes

2) we dont need "protecton" spells thats not our job niche

3) I would like to see something 9th or 10th circle that is target, but I would settle for at 50 getting a 4th or 5th FM back !! *wink* Image either one works hahah

4) I wont even go into the xp or damage of inv vs other classes, its sick in both
a) vokers dont do most damage in game,
b) not hardest but not easist xp
c) nuf said bout those 2

5)I agree magic resistance is nuts, there is no point in me going some zone/ or helping in lots of fights because shrug is so insane.

6) secondary effects.
a) inferno burn doesnt last to long but still good
b) blazing ok damage I guess for circle, but blinds rare
c) thunder almost never stuns
d) meteor swarm, controled meteors? I would be runnin like a mo fo if I saw a bunch of meteors fallin down on me, should b no control just massive damage, and should last few rounds....

7) Our magic resistance, I am drow, and always have atleast -30 ss but ive been told -21 is all you need, whats the point of it then? especialy when I never shrug anything :P

8) thanks for even reading here SHevy Image I take back everything I ever said about you.. well maybe Image

9) no rush on us get eles in hehe Image
thanks pinky
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Postby Todrael » Sun Nov 11, 2001 11:28 pm

Invokers do the most damage of any class against mobs without magic resistance. The point of magic resistance is so that bringing all invokers to deal damage isn't what every group needs.

-Todrael
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Postby Maladryn » Mon Nov 12, 2001 6:00 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>Invokers do the most damage of any class against mobs without magic resistance. The point of magic resistance is so that bringing all invokers to deal damage isn't what every group needs.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Rogues can stay in for entire battles as well as Rangers. I'd say both of these classes out damage me in terms of overall damage in a zone due to the fact I have to mem. Based on the sheer fact that I have a much higher experience table and no tanking abilities whatsoever, I feel that my damage should be twice any ranger/rogues. Currently this is not the case.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Nov 12, 2001 1:15 pm

This is a function of your groups and not your class. I have never seen a battle on the evil side with a well-made group where the invoker ran out of force missiles or inferno's by the time the battle was over. Obviously we are caster heavy, and battles are much faster and more brutal. Apparently your side takes so long to kill things that yes, a rogue might over the course of a zone deal more damage than your invokers. Maybe more of you should play an invoker to change that. Or maybe your invokers should get level 50 so they can finally have a clue about how powerful their class is.

-Todrael
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Postby Anaram » Mon Nov 12, 2001 7:52 pm

Here are some stats I dug up from a some logs I have...

1) Spell Resistence

5 force missiles, 3 missiles each against silverwing, 15 total missiles, 12 shrugs 3 hits

2 force missiles, 3 missiles each against loki, 6 total missiles 6 shrugs

2 force missiles, 3 missiles each against loki's pet dragon, 6 total missiles 5 shrugs 1 hit.

Damage (ship xp)

5 force missiles, 2 missiles each, 5 person group against miplit, average 16 rounds till death

5 force missiles, 3 missiles each 5 person group against miplit, average 12 rounds till death

0 force missiles, rogue doing ALL damage, 5 person group (4 since I wasn't casting) total 21 rounds

Defense

Keep in mind I have a -22 AC with my armor and agi and 489 HP

loki: 3 hits till death (I got lucky I guess)
jarl: 1 hit from 489 to 168
frost giant berserker: 3 hits till death
miplit: 2 hits from 489 to 157

On average against a warrior mob I will drop to ~100 hp after 1 round of tanking, casting mob ~240-280 after 1 round.

ok.. Now onto my opinion...

3 spells in particular put this class above any other in damage/level (cept for rogues mebbe). Minute Meteors which gets you through mid levels, force missiles which is the most potent single target spell there is (once you get 2-3 of them that is) and inferno which I don't have quite yet but have seen a voker with it compared to me... Not even gonna go there. The class is fine except perhaps for the magic resist which is a lil haywire, even against high level mobs where I can only get 2-4 force missiles to hit out of 15.

All in all the class does not need defensive spells, we arn't supposed to tank, we arn't supposed to heal, or protect, or anything, just deal alot of damage. Keep in mind that if we are in a room with 10 mobs in it, we deal 10x the damage a rogue will since we do area damage. Just keep that in mind when you say rogues do more damage. Single target spells vs rogue, I agree, but lets see a group do 2nd gate with only rogues and no mages casting area spells... Don't think so. As far as the xp tables, so what, makes it more of a challenge, this class wouldn't be any fun if I went into a zone and had 0% chance of dieing, I kind of like the 100% chance of dieing acctually.

Finally on the point of 9th and 10th circle spells, you get more force missiles, use those. I have yet to be in a fight where I run out of all my high level spells, if you run out of force missiles, use bigby's or swarm or cloud or somthing, you're still dealing damage pretty much reguardless of what you cast (exceptions are emminent, I know). We don't need anymore damage spells IMHO. Just make sure you learn where/when to mem out or ask the leader if it is safe to mem out, or just watch what other casters are doing.

The class is fine, lower magic resist a little bit so at least 25% of our spells can get through or so, and I think the vokers will fill their niche 100%.

Anaram
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Postby Tuga » Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:10 pm

I cant believe some of you are actually attacking a class like enchanter?

Whats going on here?
Enchanters and Clerics have the worse time trying to level and now some of these whiny Vokers want Enchanters not to have any offensive. *ponder*
Ok, i agree take all my offensive spells of the list but,

1. for every 1hp that stone saves i want 1xp

2. for every 1hp that dscales saves i want 2xp

3. for every extra hit that haste gives hitters i want 100xp

4. for every save with globe i want 20xp

5. there are more but i'm at work and cant really spend time thinkin about these things

Hey implement all these and Enchanters almost can level as fast as a Rogue Image

Cant talk about clerics coz i dont play one but surely if they heal in battle they should get exp from it, more than they do now.

Ok thats my whine for the week.

Tuga the Sunless Troll
Tilsen *whistle*
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Postby Corth » Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:19 pm

Tuga:

I'm not sure if you are responding to my comments.. but if you are..

I was by no means attacking enchanters. I agree with you that they have the roughest exp situation of any class. I also feel sorry for enchanters insofar as they cast most of their spells before a fight at high level, as opposed to during a fight. I Would like to see enchanters doing less prep work, and more battle work. One way to accomplish this, imho, is get rid of a redundant spell like blur, and in exchange, give enchanters a spanky 6th circle offensive spell, or perhaps an offensive spell in a different circle. On the other hand, most enchanters seem to be against this idea.. and since I'm not an enchanter, I would defer to their judgment.

Corth
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Postby Yayaril » Tue Nov 13, 2001 4:54 pm

Enchanter experience is easy if you know where to look.

Yayaril
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Postby Maladryn » Tue Nov 13, 2001 6:27 pm

There are enchanters who started after me and are higher level than me. Yeah go ahead, say I suck but i really don't think that's it. If leveling and exp is your game, then do only that. Exp isn't that hard on this mud, it really isn't. Even for enchanters who have trouble getting experience, it isn't THAT hard. I wasn't attacking your class specifically, just using it as a comparison. You guys can solo stuff while I can't even kill most level 40 mobs by myself.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:11 pm

Heh... let's everyone try to keep calm here.

Invokers, last I checked, leveled a lot faster than enchanters. From talking to several enchanters I gather that their exp basically comes only from mob deaths. Invoker exp obviously comes mostly from damage.

Invokers get a few nice side-effects as well as damaging. Last I checked, Invokers could stun, blind, minor paralyze, etc. Again, this is on paper, but so is our analysis of enchanters. In addition, Invokers could deal damage over time.

Originally the one main problem with invokers was that they could be too powerful if there were several of them in a group. Hence, feedback and other nasty stuff was added. To prevent invokers from soloing (or most mages, for that matter), it was ensured that no invoker could tank. This is not a problem; it's a feature of the class.

That being said, I think it's time we looked at giving invokers a few more effects. Ah, but what effects? They could have a spell that bashes - but that would put warriors or utility classes out of business. They could have a protective spell like stoneskin, but then enchanters would be getting the shaft. They already have blind effects and stun effects (*area* stun and slow effects, mind you, which are really nasty to go up against).

Maybe they could get blink to cast on themselves in emergencies. I don't think that would be imbalancing. Keep in mind, maladryn and others, that invokers came in to replace the oldskool monks. Monks were all about damage, and that's what invokers are about too. Heck, monks couldn't even wear most eq and their ac was capped at 0!

I don't see anything wrong with giving invokers one or two more utility spells, such as blink, just to save their own ass. The single-target nuke may have to be upped now that we can't have invokers working together. But to give them a number of useful utilities is IMHO imbalancing.

My two pieces of bark.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Nov 13, 2001 7:15 pm

oh, PS, on spell shrug-

has anyone noticed mobs shrugging spell *effects*? I'm not talking damage and I'm not talking saving throw, I'm talking about mobs that shrug enchantment spells like blind.

Is it my imagination, or has that happened a lot more recently?
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Postby Malacar » Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:37 pm

Yes, exp isn't that hard. If you're willing to spend X hours a day, X days a week doing just that.

I've gotten a ton of shit because I haven't leveled fast. I got tired of constant exp after the race in the initial weeks. I am still tired of it. If I wanted to, and had 3-5 hours a day for a solid week, I could be 46-48th level in those few days. No it's not hard, but the way the mud is currently geared, if you aren't hardcore exp during downtime, you don't get those levels. The way experience is setup, it requires a lot of effort. And perhaps it should. But those of us that are casual mudders suffer because of this.

And I know I am not the only Enchanter who fucking hates soloing, and who REALLY hates the fact that we need to cast damage in zone groups to get decent exp progress. I played an enchanter for the protections, and to benefit my group. I've said this til I was blue in the face, and still a God has yet to respond to these. Some folks wonder why I keep bitching. Maybe if I bitch loud enough and long enough, we'll get god input on the subject, and perhaps someday it will get changed so we get exp for what we're SUPPOSED to do.

But I doubt it happens anytime soon.

Always bitter,
Mal
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Postby Tuga » Wed Nov 14, 2001 11:41 am

Maladryn,

Have you actually read my post?

I actually said that maybe you are rite and that we should not have offensive spells except those in the lower circles but like Malacar is saying give us exp for what we do other than just exp when the mob dies.

You say we can tank mobs, well take that away from us too i dont really care, i'm alwayz happy to bring someone that will get in between me and the mob.

As I said i just want exp for what I do best, which is to protect the group. After all you get exp for doing what you do best rite?

So exp is not hard to get? Maybe for your class is not but for me that have to spend most time in exp groups meming out just to finally get exp from mob-death is just dead boring.

Oh my god, a second whine this week! I think I putting too much effort on this game! *nod me*

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Postby Maladryn » Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:59 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Tuga:
[B]Maladryn,

Have you actually read my post?

I actually said that maybe you are rite and that we should not have offensive spells except those in the lower circles but like Malacar is saying give us exp for what we do other than just exp when the mob dies.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you're saying you should be able to sit in WD, cast stone, blur, dscales, whatever other protection spell, dispel magic yourself, and do it over again and gain exp from it? Essentially that's what you just said, give you guys exp for protection spells. If there is a way for the mud to determine whether or not a spell is cast during a huge battle this might be beneficial but I dont think the mud can currently.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:08 pm

Many ideas have been proposed on exactly how to do that Maladryn. The imms never really responded though... wonder if they might now?

All spells: Put a linked list in each players struct which will keep track of a player and a spell. (Bleh, been a long time since I looked at the codebase... can't remember the names of the structs... heh.) Call it something like enchanted_by. When an enchanter casts a spell on the character he is added to this list along with what spell he cast.

Haste: All the damage exp gained by a hasted person is also gained by the enchanter who casted haste on him. But only if they are grouped _and_ in the same room.

Stone/dscales: Each hit blocked by these spells should give the enchanter a small amount of exp... much like the rumored "tanking exp." Again, this would only work if they were grouped and in the same room together.

Other spells: Err... same thing! Image

So coders, what do ye think?

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Postby Guest » Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Sarvis:
<B>Many ideas have been proposed on exactly how to do that Maladryn. The imms never really responded though... wonder if they might now?

All spells: Put a linked list in each players struct which will keep track of a player and a spell. (Bleh, been a long time since I looked at the codebase... can't remember the names of the structs... heh.) Call it something like enchanted_by. When an enchanter casts a spell on the character he is added to this list along with what spell he cast.

Haste: All the damage exp gained by a hasted person is also gained by the enchanter who casted haste on him. But only if they are grouped _and_ in the same room.

Stone/dscales: Each hit blocked by these spells should give the enchanter a small amount of exp... much like the rumored "tanking exp." Again, this would only work if they were grouped and in the same room together.

Other spells: Err... same thing! Image

So coders, what do ye think?

Sarvis</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So in a big zoning group where an enchanter is typically grouped with 4 or 5 "hitters", the enchanter should get 4 or 5 times the xp as everyone else in the group because they happen to cast haste on them? Same with the stoning/scaling. Enchanter stones 3 tanks for 2nd gatehouse and sits back. Getting kill xp, damage xp as well as any experience from the tanks tanking?

Not to mention that this would swell pfiles to incredble amounts keeping track of every spell they cast on every person. Add to the fact that you would have to do a ton of pfile read/writes every time a spell is cast or falls. Then do a comparison every time is does an experience calculation to determine if the person who cast a spell on the tank is still in the room.

This is something that is under debate. We're talking about it, the dead horse is beginning to rot. Stop kicking it. :P
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Postby Corth » Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:59 pm

Kia:

If its not practical from a coding perspective to allow enchanters to get exp for what they expertise.. well thats obviously not resolved easily.

I dont think though, that enchanters would be getting 4-5x the exp as anyone else in the group if the experience obained from their enchantments were balanced properly against experience obtained from killing a mob.

Of course its all a moot point if it can't be coded at all Image

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Postby Dibble » Wed Nov 14, 2001 9:32 pm

Clerics get exp for healing in combat correct? now the idea of giving enchanters exp for all extra damage done by other hasted PCs does sound hard to code. The idea of figuring exactly how much damage stoneskin/scales blocks sounds like it might be hard as well. but we could give them some exp for casting stoneskin/scales in combat (just like clerics heal/full heal). find an average (or even guestimate) of how much exp clerics are getting for a heal and full heal and give enchanters a fixed amount of exp based on that...it might not be completely accurate or foolproof but it would give enchanters something. just an idea Image
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Postby Rausrh » Wed Nov 14, 2001 10:23 pm

As an enchanter, I find that I have very few opportunities to cast offensive spell during combat, even in an exp setting. If I am not re-stoning the tank or re-hasting hitters I am casting rays, fumble, stumble, ect. on the mobs. If I am not doing any of these it is because I am 'meming out' during the fight to get back more stones.

While the increase for enchanter damage experience is nice, the problem lays in the fact that we don't get a chance to cast them often enough.

Question to those in the know:
Do casters currently receive experience from casting effect spells on mob such as ray, fumble, stumble, slow etc on mobs during a battle? If not why? If so should the experience gained from these spells be looked at as another way to ease the leveling hardships on enchanters and other supporting casters?

Gaining exp(or increased exp) from effect spells cast on mobs would be far simpler to code than the idea of enchanters gaining experience from casting supporting spells on PCs.

I know this would not help the experience enchanters get from high level zones where we are doing much more support casting. I feel that zones are there for the adventure and the equipment and less for the experience points.

Any thoughts?



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Postby Malacar » Thu Nov 15, 2001 5:15 am

Kia:

I would like to point something out to you. You say stop beating a dead horse. How in the nine hells can we know that it is being debated when we haven't heard anything? We can't. Players will keep bashing their heads against something they view as a problem until such a time that they know it's been recognized. Don't lead to the conclusion that we are beating something you already know about... Image

And now that we KNOW you are at least talking about it, I bet the posts regarding it lose a lot of their heat, because they know their voice was heard.

And on your view on the exp from enchantments: Like Corth said, if balanced properly, like everything else in this game, it will not be disproportional. I have confidence that something will be done in the future. All we can do as players is throw out suggestions. We can't possibly know some of the detriments of the suggestions if we don't get feedback.. So again, don't jump on the playerbase.. We're just trying to help, mang! Image
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Postby Tuga » Thu Nov 15, 2001 12:17 pm

Kia,

I, as a software engineer also know that implementing something like what I was saying would be a real nightmare to balance.

I was just trying to point out to Maladryn that next time he tries to compare Vokers to Enchanters for him to think about what's happening atm before he does the comparison.

Rite now clerics and enchanters are the hardest classes to level, therefore I'd just like to say to peeps should not point fingers at these classes.

Ok back to the topic on this thread.
I also think that the rate at which mobs shrug spells atm might be too high and should be looked at.

Tuga the Sunless Troll
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Postby Lyt » Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:46 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Malacar:
<B>True Corth. I only cast blur when a big fight comes up, or am low on stones. It seems to help stretch them a tad.

In the D&D universe(yes this isn't D&D, but just giving a comparison), blur is a lesser form of displace. Blur gives the opponent a 20% miss chance, while displace gives a 50% miss chance. So in effect, they do the same thing, and technically should not be able to stack. I doubt on the mud they do, but since I really don't know the exact specifics of either spell, I will refrain from saying what they -actually- do.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually from playing through Icewind Dale and BG2 recently, the only thing that Blur is supposed to do is give you improved AC against missile attacks only, and does give a bonus to sv spell. (I think.) I don't know what it really does on the mud.

Lyt
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:43 pm

In defense of my idea: There is no reason that any of this would need to be saved to a pfile. If a person rents, or camps or anything it can be assumed that he is no longer grouped with the enchanter and the lists contents therefore become invalid.

The operations needed to calculate exp would probably be acceptable, as it is a lot less work than many of the other things the mud currently does. Such as casting area spells...

You are right though, about the amount of exp they could get being multiplied by the number of players... heh. Not sure how to deal with that... could make it so the enchanter can only gain exp from 1 person and 1 spell at a time maybe. *shrug*

Thanks for the response though Shevy... Image

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Postby Jurdex » Thu Nov 15, 2001 7:32 pm

I solo'd almost all of my way to 50 because heal exp does.. jack. I pretty much only got exp from mob kills. Soloing allowed me to gain all the exp - healing, damage and kill exp. It was faster exp, albeit tedious.

Same goes for enchanters..

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Postby Treladian » Thu Nov 15, 2001 9:19 pm

Lyt: Blur's undergone a few revisions in D&D rules. ie, 3rd edition is very different from 2nd edition. It's also caster only. Then there are things like cloaks of displacement that have similar but different effects to make things more confusing.
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Postby Ebgar » Thu Nov 15, 2001 10:27 pm

I cannot agree with Jurdex more, between what he said, and the fact that in zones clerics never assist, so we don't even get good heal exp from healing tanks cause we're not "technially" in battle, and the fact that we're required to mem out so much, we're not even in for kills half the time. If we did get up each time a mob was at awful, and then someone dies, we get yelled at....also, i'm starting a new thread about how clerics could get more damage exp by putting holy word in 9th circle, but that's another thread.....
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Postby moritheil » Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:18 pm

He Who Rules (Miax) has just announced that invokers will now get a 10th circle sandblast single target nuke. Rock on.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Nov 19, 2001 10:43 pm

Remember to thank yer neighborhood demon Gargauth for sandblast. Image



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<B>Shevarash -- Code Forger of Sojourn3
</B>
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Postby Zoldren » Tue Nov 20, 2001 12:27 am

sandblast
I love you
if only can use it now Image
I guess all my pinking and moaning finaly payed off? :P
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Nov 20, 2001 12:46 am

Can scribe it next boot...sorry bout that.

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