downgrade elementalists

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kiryan
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downgrade elementalists

Postby kiryan » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:12 am

think its about time for this one.

first no pet heal spells, fire elementals or not, please.

take relocate away, gate is plenty good and rp. not every freaking mage needs gate and relocate. not only that but with their solo ability they dont need to be getting places any faster. a lil off topic but shadow walk would be great for necro/lich because they would have to leave pets behind.

next, do something about their solo ability. its too strong.

remove pwb from their spell list and feeb if they have it, they will still have glitterdust.

infinte tanks? some that tank very well, others that do damage back to the mob based on how hard he hits it? now its even easier since the type to summon? come on. give them power points (or use psi) and decrement it each summon. infinite summons is broken and unrealistic. maybe summon max of 12 per hour? if your losing a elemental every 5 minutes somethings wrong. your either twinking or a very very bad player.

stoneskin when they already have infinite tanks? too versatile imo, should be limited to either self or pets or solid form pets.

elemental ward? awesome a spell that protects against chip effect. now give it to the class that can abuse it the worst. dragonscales and displace should not chip. elementalists dont even have to worry about the paper stone effect when they soloing shielded mobs... boggle!

dam spells when they have infinte tanks and stone? seems they are decently strong. perhaps too strong when you account that they have built in tanks and stone. if enchanters had minute meteors it would be insane because of their defensive abilities... so why do elementalists have free tanks, stone and good offensive spells plus a good variety of status effect spells?

limited vit with specials? obviously no good for chain elementaling something to death, but viting self might improve your chances of living significantly especially if you give yourself -% chance to get bashed.

the combination of the above is unbalancing. don't rape them back to conjurer days but their skills are too strong in too many areas. downgrade some skills or remove some areas please. we all know its major twink.

i assume this is part of the reason shev didnt want to introduce them till he was reasonably confident it was balanced. the above is !balanced. thank you for imping them, now lets start discussing what needs to be done to balance them.

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 01-28-2002).]
Todrael
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Postby Todrael » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:19 am

Have you ever grouped with an Elementalist? If you have, I don't think you'd really worry about them being overpowered.

-Todrael
thrankon
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Postby thrankon » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:49 am

Hey whoever you are.. unless
1) u have an elementalist dont make opinions
2) keep your opinions to yourself unless you
can comply with 1)

as far as your opinions on our spell list..

did it ever occur to you that shevie is trying to make a once 'solo' class now a major part of the 'group' environment?
you can say all you want about our damage spells and infinate tanks.. but take some time with an elementalist and find out like the rest of us that our damage spells are 1/2 the power of shaman and 1/4 the power of invoker. I've tried soloing mobs that I shouldnt be able to and guess what.. i cant.
also tried soloing mobs that a lich can and guess what.. i can. and theres still a bunch of them i cant solo. So dont try and use our solo ability as a reason to downgrade our group usefullness.

Take some time and spend it with a good lich/necro and a good elementalist and find out just how outa whack we are before ya make random statement that seems to based on hersay and first impressions. or better yet.. let the people who play the class make the statements about how what where should be changed. Because imagine it or not.. some of us are still beta testing and suggesting changes through the proper channels.

thranokazer
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:49 am

Kiryan, read this very carefully:
http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum6/HTML/000951.html



------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Bipple
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Postby Bipple » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:50 am

If your going to post about a class please try to back up your statements with a minimum amount of substantial evidence. This has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read.
Elseenas
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Postby Elseenas » Tue Jan 29, 2002 2:51 am

::agrees with Bipple::

------------------
Elseenas of No House Worth Mentioning
Lyt
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Postby Lyt » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:06 am

ROFL this was funny. We are not the super powers you think we are. We are definitely better than we were before the upgrade, but we are not the solo masters you propose that we are.

Gate are relocate are novelty spells to me in my opinion. I played a conjurer for so long without them that I still walk everywhere I go. These do not greatly increase the amount of stuff I can do, and all they really do is make it easier for me to join a group I am with, rather than welling in or using the beloved "ghetto well" method.

Power word blind is nice to have, but the restriction that it can only blind mobs that are lower level you prevents me from "twinking" and killings mobs and groups of mobs well out of my league. It is nice to getting rid of annoying little mobs that are aggro etc, but its not the spell that it used to be when it was permanent on every mob once it landed. Glitterdust is useless if you ask me. It rarely lands even on wimpy low level mobs, and its affect wears off in 1-2 rounds. Plus add to that, that the spell is an area spell, and it really limits its usefulness.

As to stone skin, well stone skin is very weak this incantation of the mud. With the new combat engine, coupled with dragonscales, most high level mobs hit REALLY hard. Stone skin is nice to keep you alive at lower levels, but high level mobs hit as if it wasn't there. Add to that that elementalist cannot specialize in protection, this makes stone skin even weaker.

Infinite tanks. Yes we can summon almost unlimited pets, but they all are 500 hp or less, and have very low levels. The way the new combat engine works, the greater the level difference between the mob and the tank, the harder the mob hits and the worse the tanks defensive skills. This means that my ellies can't tank for crap most times, and that in some instances I tank better than my pets just because my level is closer level to the mob than my ellies. Yes I can summon a lot of help, but they die rather quickly even to low level mobs. They aren't much use trying to kill anything really high in level.

The new elemental embodiments are nice, but are nothing super unbalancing. Even as earth form I still get bashed by humanoid mobs. As air form I can still get bashed too, as I am not true wraithform. I will confess that the hit point bonuses from these spells are nice, but I still die if I get bashed by something tough that I am tanking.

Yes we are way better than we ever were in the last few years on the mud. We are still weaker than we were when we had the 4k earth ellies, and 2.8k fire/air ellies. Hence the reason we no longer have all of that.

To sum it up, yes we are way more powerful than we were before. But we are nothing that is unbalancing, and I can't kill anything now that I couldn't do before. I can just do it a little bit faster is all.

And by the way, we do not have any spell which heals our own pets.

PS I think I personally would still trade relo or gate to get pris back, but that's just my personal preference. I will adapt though.

Lyt

[This message has been edited by Lyt (edited 01-28-2002).]
Grintor
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Postby Grintor » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:16 am

in the same vein downgrade enchanters! they can scale themselves!

i'm very very happy that elementalists have a niche. some our best players of old were conjies (valeos, lyt, thranokazer). whey should they be forced to play any other class when they obviously love this particular class/variation?

how many elementalists are in the game to make this so unbalancing? there are more enchanters on at any given time, and t hey can solo pretty damned well.
Grintor
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Postby Grintor » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:21 am

Ratengacon gives a water mephit an order.
A water mephit says 'I have 11 (11) hits, and 113 (113) movement points.'


DOWNGRADE ELEMENTALISTS!
Taka
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Postby Taka » Tue Jan 29, 2002 8:49 am

I think embodiment is a cool adition and I like the way they limit to 1 every 12 min; that way it cannot be abused.

Elemental ward as a few differences with globe which also make it interesting.

Mephit at lower level is something I was hoping for. If you are new to the mud and don't know anyone or anything, getting to 21 can take a very long time. Now they can start playing the way they are ment to sooner.

Glitter dust was far too power full when they came out, now I belive it was changed to useless. Something in between may be the right solution (them having PWB make it harder to make usefull and keep balanced).

They currently have very decent damage. Someone said 1/2 of shaman, I do not believe that. Conj were ridiculously weak in dam before, but this is no longer the case. With unlimited pets and stone, that become possibly too powerfull.
If elementalist grouped with shaman, elementals are used, spirits are not.

Lyt, if you think PWB is bad, you should try playing a cleric/druid/shaman and using blind. PWB, is MUCH faster to cast, have similar (unless its better) % of success, and on mob higher then you last much longer then blind.
I NEVER use blind when grouped with elementalist, Elementalist PWB. PWB is one of the best spells on the mud (ever watched an enchanter solo? better to PWB annoying mob especialy mages then kill them since kill allow them to repop)

Gate/Relo... I don't think that overpower them in anyway. Relo you can do the same asking a druid anyway.

Feeble mind + ice thingy (something similar to silence with a high % of success) make them quite powerfull tho. I would remove feeble and let them keep ice thingy. The 2 together + PWB make casters far too easy for them.


So at this point I think gliter dust need to be make somewhat usefull (right now they are better of with PWB).
And it should be looked at if stone+unlimited elemental+lots of dam is too powerfull. One of those 3 elements may be worth changing somewhat. At this point, solo tend to be too efficient for them, those poor rogue/ranger will end up without a pet to tank for them Image
I'd be curious to watch a lvl 46+ druid/cleric/inv solo to compare tho, Or to get a better description from the gods of what they would like each to be able to solo. I personaly think that best exp for every class should be when grouped with 1 or more people. At this point, I believe it is not so (an some other thread I read also confirm this). Maybe the exp system should be changed to give bonus exp when grouped (and to prevent twink, I should add: with peoples who are in same room as you).


Other option is multiply their damage by 5, that way maybe my friend and I can do zone on our own (he is the elementalist).


ps: I do think they are now much closer to balanced then they were back when their main targeted offense was ligthning bolt... even at 40
Morvaane
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Postby Morvaane » Tue Jan 29, 2002 1:59 pm

Just for giggles, let me add in:

UPGRADE Necros!!
Galkar
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Postby Galkar » Tue Jan 29, 2002 3:00 pm

Downgrade warriors! Remove bash! To powerful!
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:34 pm

http://www.sojourn3.org/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000949.html

Yes... downgrade this... let them summon 1 hps newts :P

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