From a Troll's point of view

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

From a Troll\'s point of view

Postby Wobb » Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:35 pm

Fire damage is too high. Yes, I know trolls are supposed to be weak to fire, fine maybe 2x damage to fire, but at some point there either needs to be EQ in the game that makes you next to immune to fire damage or severely reduces the amount of damage it will do...This really needs to be implemented. If I remember correctly Uthgar posted way back "why would anyone play a troll warrior vs. an ogre..they take too much fire damage"

well he's right, its insane and there is nothing that we as mortals can do about at this point. No amount of save spell nor fire prot eq makes a bit of difference.

related to this topic is the topic of insta-chant spells. Now stick a poor troll in a zone where you have multiple things casting inferno and other things in the same room casting holy word AND you have TAKEN AWAY INSTA GHEAL...what are you trying to prove? why not just put a sign in the beginning of the zone that says "no trolls". At least with the shaman's former instant Gheal I may have had a chance at living.

also, why the hell is inferno the only big spell that high level casters cast...its the only spell they cast and its the only spell that really bothers me as a troll (for obvious reasons)...there are plenty of other 10th circle invoker type spells that could be equally devastating but for some reason everyone casts the fire based spell., i think it's a cop-out that they would always cast a fire-based spell.

Don't get me wrong, I love a challenge, and I have died my share of deaths, but lately and in new zones...its pointless. Let's have save spell or prot fire start to really mean something.

Wobb
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 11, 2002 9:44 pm

Um... mobs cast inferno? Do tell.

I think you're confusing it with incendiary.
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:02 pm

Yeah, if mobs cast inferno, you would be dead regardless of prot fire and hps. (I got inferno'd over chaos by some gods.. 900hps with save and prot fire.. lick)

Prot fire eq _does_ make a huge differance.. remove it and get clouded and see if you live. It seems that prot fire counteracts the extra damage that trolls take.. so then you're left with save spell. So you're gonna be taking ~400hps if you save.. 800ish if you don't (ouchy). Ya gotta have something thats a minus to make up for the godly regen Image

However, I -do- agree that it would be cool to see mobs casting some ice based spells also, instead of clouds. There is more variety this wipe, since stuff will cast blacklight burts and thunderblast in addition to clouds, but it would be a nice change to get hit with a ice spell thats equivalent to cloud.. none of that 10th circle stuff tho.. shudder. Image
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Wobb » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:29 pm

yes I meant Incend thanks....point remains, why not a cold spell? why not something else? why does have to be incend?

thanks for replying to set me straight on which spell but not mentioning a thing about it

(shaking my head)
Wobb
Guest

Postby Guest » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:31 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Wobb:
<B>yes I meant Incend thanks....point remains, why not a cold spell? why not something else? why does have to be incend?

thanks for replying to set me straight on which spell but not mentioning a thing about it

(shaking my head)
Wobb</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you had a spell that worked great against a mob, would you not cast it? When you fight troll mobs do you think "Nah, I'm not going to cast a fire spell against this guy."

Why would you not expect mobs to cast fire spells against you guys then?

Just curious.
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Wobb » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:31 pm

And Rylan, I have a lot of respect for you you have been around for a long time...

but there's no such thing as godly regen..and ask any troll shaman..their regen is crap, I never understood why a troll warrior regens faster than a troll shaman, it should be race based, not class. Nugg would have rolled an orc shaman if she had known the regen sucked this bad.

Wobb
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:42 pm

Prot fire eq doesn't make a bit of difference. Sv spell eq will only HALF the damage done by a cloud. I've eaten clouds that have done upwards of 850 hps...so you figure oh wow I only ate 425 cause I was wearing -25 sv spell! *smirk*

I kinda agree with Wobb about the insane fire damage. However I know it's supposed to be this way but the healers in group find it really hard to keep trolls alive vs. multiple !bash wraithform clouders. Just a thought. Image

Idea: make the eq that is actually *flagged* PROTECTION_FROM_FIRE help somewhat.
I know the lava pendant in UD ID's as follows:

Affects : FIRE_PROT By 1

There's another item or two I believe that are the exact same way. Just wish those flags actually did something for us in the means of maybe reducing fire damage by 10% for every +1 FIRE_PROT or something.

Just an idea. Image

Deathmagnet
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Wobb » Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:43 pm

Kia,

Of course i would choose a target spell that hurt the enemy the most..if that AI is truly built into the code for the mages then Kudos to the coders...

but every race i've played...it's still the spell of choice....i find that interesting

in any case..fine if that's the spell that is going to be cast...why doesn't save spell or prot fire eq do anything against it? and i'm not talking results like we currently see...everytime I'm incend more than once..i'm dead..bye. And that goes for most trolls. I'm talking lets see some prot fire that actually makes a difference.

I've had -20 or less sv spell and many prot fire items on, boots, remo cloak, lava pendant, wielding flamberge....all prot fire...and still ...one incend i might live through, you hit a zone like clouds and you have no chance.

I think the zone is great..it's an idea that moves in a new direction...you have to act and think fast...and the surprise of not being able to see in adjacent rooms adds a great new level of mystery to the game.

In my lay opinion, you have to temper change with wisdom. Had I known the direction the mud was taking I never would have made a troll. I really really regret making a troll. At high levels..they are almost useless in big zones because incend is all you see...

and i think that is sad...it's a cheap way to obliterate one enemy...no other class or race has this type of weakness on this grand of a scale where 100% of your mage-enemies will guarantee to cast the same spell, (are liches weak to cold? if they were it wouldn't matter because the mobs would be casting an area spell..and i'm sure it wouldnt' be cold based)

I'm only this upset about this issue because I really can't afford the time to level up an Ogre or some other race...really puts me and my wife in a tight spot for playing the game.

Thanks for reading
Wobb
rylan
Sojourner
Posts: 2903
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Hudson, MA

Postby rylan » Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:16 am

wobb.. something I noticed about regen. It appears to be a percentage of your hps, so I think thats why shamans regen slower. Of course I was thinking about warrior troll regen when I mentioned that it rocks. Shamans with lower base hps regen less hps per round, since its based on percentages (I think anyway.. sure seems like it). I'll agree with ya on that point that shaman troll regen is much slower due to this percentage of base hp thingy.

Not entirely on topic, but you mentioned this and its kind of interesting how it seesm to work.
Grintor
Sojourner
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:01 am
Location: san jose, ca, usa
Contact:

Postby Grintor » Tue Feb 12, 2002 2:54 am

i think trolls take so much damage to balance out how insanely easy it is to level one. i've never gotten a warrior to this level so fast before, and barring anyone barbecueing in the area my agility makes me a great tank compared to my ogre, who has a very low hitroll and no mob seems to miss her.

i do think that with three-5 prot fire items worn and -20spellsave i shouldnt be getting hit for 450 damage in cloud as a minimum.
Dakrish
Sojourner
Posts: 54
Joined: Thu Mar 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: MI
Contact:

Postby Dakrish » Tue Feb 12, 2002 3:15 am

No disprespect Wobb, but you are *kinda* wrong.

Prot fire and svs and your level matters.

However, 1 of the 3 doesn't cut it. 2 of the 3 doesn't cut it. You need to have all three; prots, -20svs, and level 50 to really notice a difference. And it's all for naught if you fail your save, which isn't rare.

When i'm in full hp mode (which is a very respectable amount of hp)) I can *sometimes* take 3 clouds. That's if i'm REALLY lucky.

On a side note, I petitioned once about what prot fire meant on eq and either Kia or Shev responded saying that prot fire is prot fire.

This means that if you wear 2 pieces of prot fire eq you only get the benefit of having 1. Also, if it says something about affecting prot fire +3 that means jack. It's all 1 type of prot fire.

Clouds don't affect me nearly as much as they did a few months ago. But they still are too strong imho. Incendiary clouds mainly hurt the new trolls, the ones that aren't level 50 and don't have the uberfied eq. It was very very very discouraging dying instantly from a cloud. (which was around 900 hp). Not sure what i'm saying, I just wanted to point out that it hurts the new trolls more then the more established ones Image

*I apologize for being confusing, I've had a very long day*

peACe oUt
laterZ
gyrx
Wobb
Sojourner
Posts: 389
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 6:01 am
Contact:

Postby Wobb » Tue Feb 12, 2002 3:24 pm

Ahhh! Thanks Gyrx (Dakrish) (and you others who replied) for clearing that up.

Well, I had this long reply all filled out when it occurred to me that my point has already been stated. I hope the admins reconsider fire damage to trolls, consider adding a troll-only item that will severely reduce fire damage (new quest!) and think about adding another non fire-based spell for high level NPC mages to cast.

Thanks
Wobb
moritheil
Sojourner
Posts: 4845
Joined: Wed Jan 31, 2001 6:01 am

Postby moritheil » Tue Feb 12, 2002 5:28 pm

indeed. I think the point kia was making was:

Mob says: troll vuln fire, thus, cast cloud.

Mob says: human not vuln anything, so, what's my big area nuke? cloud. thus, cast cloud.

In the end, you see no difference.

I survived a triple cloud once. Why? Because mobs were barely able to cast cloud. Levels make a massive difference. Also, as they mentioned, ss and prot fire, although I have yet to quantify that difference or have much of an appreciation of the depth to which it matters.
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Tue Feb 12, 2002 11:16 pm

Just as a side note, there is definately a reason to play a troll over an ogre. Trolls have massive agility, on par with an elf's. Ogres obviously don't. This means trolls eat less crit damage with the new crit system then ogres. So in theory this means that you can go ogre for more hps, not getting toasted by fire, but taking some nasty crits, go troll for lots of hps, better ability to survive crits, but basically be forced to wear prot fire and -20 save vs. spell and still have to pray every now and then when you see a mob casting cloud, or go duergar and not have as many advantages as either troll or ogre but avoid suffering from fire and crits as much. In theory anyway, dunno how much duergars are affected by the rewriting of the crit engine.

------------------
"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
Grintor
Sojourner
Posts: 285
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 6:01 am
Location: san jose, ca, usa
Contact:

Postby Grintor » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:57 am

in practice this troll gets his ass handed to him just as fast as any ogre in a zone.

expn'g level 1-40 is another matter, and a troll warrior owns all in levelling in this respect

xpn'g != zone. i'd still rather be an ogre when Syssok tells you 'consent for sf'
Galok Icewolf
Sojourner
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Galok Icewolf » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:54 am

SF is earthquakes, not clouds..

ask krolb how fun it is to be knocked on yer ass from 7/8 earthquakes cast.
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:59 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
<B>SF is earthquakes, not clouds..

ask krolb how fun it is to be knocked on yer ass from 7/8 earthquakes cast.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Play Yuan-Ti and Drow warriors!
Sarell
Sojourner
Posts: 1681
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am
Location: brisbane, australia

Postby Sarell » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:28 am

Surely this one disadvantage to such great warriors isn't all that bad...I mean troll warrior has to be the most played class?

IF the cloud is that bad that trolls cant do some zones, or not reasonably I would like to see it changed, actually, a variety of spells cast could be nice to see, like...dessicate! *duck*

musing while typing...
safe travels Image
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Wed Feb 13, 2002 1:43 pm

earthquakes own ogres. I think trolls are balanced well against ogres, and there really isnt a comparsion to any other race due to the hps thing. i like your idea of pff stacking, but pff is way to easy to get. rhemo, crown, lavax2 and im already pff x4.

If a group eats 2 or 3 clouds, they got a good chance of spanking regardless of 2 troll tanks dieing (the primary troll tank wil still be alive). The people who get screwed by the cloud thing are newbies (no ss), and secondary tanks (no full heals).

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 02-13-2002).]
Galok Icewolf
Sojourner
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Galok Icewolf » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:21 pm

Yea, you would think there would be a price to pay for having good strength, good agility, human dex, and good con. The only detriment is fire damage.


If a troll is tanking a non-clouding mob, and a ogre is tanking a non-clouding mob... you better belive I would be on the troll 10/10 times...
Jegzed
Sojourner
Posts: 1240
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Jegzed » Wed Feb 13, 2002 2:28 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Galok Icewolf:
If a troll is tanking a non-clouding mob, and a ogre is tanking a non-clouding mob... you better belive I would be on the troll 10/10 times...</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ogre's are rather crap tank..

My snake, while missing lots of slots and wearing hitter gear tanks MUCH better than my ogre did.
Baikalisan
Sojourner
Posts: 314
Joined: Mon Oct 15, 2001 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby Baikalisan » Wed Feb 13, 2002 8:50 pm

I dont play a troll or an ogre, but i do play a cleric and i see the difference in the ammount of heals it takes to keep one or the other alive. In an xp situation i'd much rather have a troll over an ogre tanking. In a zone, well the same honestly..but it does get a little frustrating to walk into a room with 2 mobs with 4 troll tanks in group, the mobs get off a couple incend and all the tanks are dead and the enchanter is tanking!

cast 'full heal' wobb

Nobody here by that name.


at least think about his suggestion


Baikalisan
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Wed Feb 13, 2002 10:37 pm

It's the downside of playing troll. If you want good agility (and no, it's not the equivalent of grey elf or drow agility like some people seem to believe) and regeneration, you play a troll. If you want insane strength (and thus crits), innate lockpick (doorbash), be pretty much unbashable and the best hitpoints, you play ogre, but you lose agi and dex. Or you could play duergar and get strength somewhere between an ogre's and troll's, good dex and pretty decent agi. It's all a matter of choice, every race has its advantages.

I died a ton from clouds before, but ever since I got fireprot eq it's been much less. Yeah I still hate 500hp clouds, but that's the drawback of trolls. I'd love to have ogre or duergar strength and only take 150hp from clouds like they do, but I'm sure they would like my regen every time they have to heal for 15 mins while I only need 5.

Cherzra troll for life
Gormal
Sojourner
Posts: 3917
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: A Whale's Vagina
Contact:

Postby Gormal » Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:13 am

trolls also have big size and big hps. if you nnuked the cloud there would be absolutley no reason to play ogre and duergar.
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Thu Feb 14, 2002 7:11 am

Fire damage is a little ridiculous sometimes in my opinion. I was in crypts the other day with a pr-fire item on and had -4 sv spell from bless and i ate 1080hp cloud. That's just my opinion though. Not alot of trolls have over 1080hps to survive especially if you are the main tank and i kind of find a mob casting a 7th circle spell and killing 4 trolls in 1 shot a little overpowerful.

Gura
Blung
Sojourner
Posts: 185
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am
Location: San Diego, CA,

Postby Blung » Thu Feb 14, 2002 4:48 pm

The day Shrek was born, everyone know Ogre is the best race for warrior. He get to kick ass and marry the princess.
So the question still remain, How come people don't roll up Ogre? *peer* Wobb

I like big butt and I cannot lie.


[This message has been edited by Blung (edited 02-14-2002).]
Klurg
Sojourner
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Örebro, Sweden

Postby Klurg » Thu Feb 14, 2002 6:08 pm

-4 ss? what the heck where u thinkin gura! *bonk*

/Klurg
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Thu Feb 14, 2002 11:38 pm

Actually Cherz...trolls and elves that start out with their max agi notch have the same AC naked. Best AC naked with max agi notch is +55. But trolls have a few bonuses going for them...besides str and con.

Size: They can bash anything ~4' to 10' (ogres if you're female, or wearing one of those spanky +wt belts from demi).

Headbutt: Male (not sure on female) trolls can headbutt anything as small as half-elf, all the way up to troll-size. Thus, a lot of mobs fall into this size range.

Crit code: People roll ogres for damage...the crit code on ogres is much higher than trolls...around 250% higher. Thus when you get your ass handed to you in arena by Krolb it's not just his hit/dam, it's the crits you're eating too. Image Duergar warriors are known for their great strength and constitution, and are probably the best all-around tanks in the game, save for avoiding crits. I'm sure drow and yuan-ti warriors are much better tanks now that crits are based on agility.

Anyway, just thought I'd spew up more warrior stuff.

Deathmagnet
sok
Sojourner
Posts: 1578
Joined: Mon May 21, 2001 5:01 am
Location: santa ana, ca, usa
Contact:

Postby sok » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:33 am

targsk u needa change ya title. i think sobu became the new deathmagnet.

4 corpse in um2
12 hrs later
3 corpses purple worm

he dislike lvling more than troll disliking fire.
cherzra
Sojourner
Posts: 1868
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Holland

Postby cherzra » Fri Feb 15, 2002 5:23 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Yasden:
[B]Actually Cherz...trolls and elves that start out with their max agi notch have the same AC naked. /B]</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They don't, roll one and find out. Elves beat trolls hands down.
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Fri Feb 15, 2002 8:11 pm

Character attributes for Alnaural

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 99 lbs
STR: good AGI: perfect DEX: average CON: good
POW: bad INT: bad WIS: average CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 49 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Character attributes for Ayux

Level: 1 Race: Troll Class: Warrior
Age: 10 yrs / 0 mths Height: 85 inches Weight: 287 lbs
STR: good AGI: perfect DEX: mighty CON: fair
POW: bad INT: average WIS: average CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 55 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 5
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Not a problem

< 39h/39H 130v/130V>

Slight difference in max agility notch between trolls and elves (tested with a drow warrior too, but results were same as for a grey so didn't bother reposting). Wouldn't call a 6 ac difference beating a troll hands down though.
Kiloppile
Sojourner
Posts: 521
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Chatsworth, CA, USA

Postby Kiloppile » Sat Feb 16, 2002 5:21 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Treladian:
<B> Character attributes for Alnaural

Level: 1 Race: Grey Elf Class: Warrior
Age: 120 yrs / 0 mths Height: 60 inches Weight: 99 lbs
STR: good AGI: perfect DEX: average CON: good
POW: bad INT: bad WIS: average CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 49 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 3
Alignment: 1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Paltry

Character attributes for Ayux

Level: 1 Race: Troll Class: Warrior
Age: 10 yrs / 0 mths Height: 85 inches Weight: 287 lbs
STR: good AGI: perfect DEX: mighty CON: fair
POW: bad INT: average WIS: average CHA: mundane
Armor Class: 55 (100 to -100)
Hitroll: 5 Damroll: 5
Alignment: -1000 (-1000 to 1000)
Saving Throws: PAR[0] ROD[0] PET[0] BRE[0] SPE[0]
Wimpy: 10
Load carried: Not a problem

< 39h/39H 130v/130V>

Slight difference in max agility notch between trolls and elves (tested with a drow warrior too, but results were same as for a grey so didn't bother reposting). Wouldn't call a 6 ac difference beating a troll hands down though.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course you realize that agility does more than just AC, yes?
Treladian
Sojourner
Posts: 1163
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Treladian » Sat Feb 16, 2002 9:33 pm

Yes, I'm quite aware of the effect agility has on crits, evading earthquakes, etc . . . unless the non-ac effects of agility scale exponentially instead of linearly though, I doubt that the relatively small difference between grey/drow agility compared to troll/gnome agility would have a large difference.

------------------
"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."

Return to “S3 Gameplay Discussion Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests