Haste for rangers? Hate for rangers.

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Waelos
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Haste for rangers? Hate for rangers.

Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:43 am

Just wondering again why haste isn't a 10th circle spell for rangers. Enchanters have no time or inclination to haste hitters in combat. Could be cuz they hate us, they're too busy, they have to mem out so much, etc. Whatever the reason, one of the main functions of the ranger (the 5 attacks) doesn't happen for most fights in the game.

Some will cry balance issues. . .well I ask, what balance issues would come into play? So a 50th lvl ranger can solo dockies better now. Uh, why are we soloing dockies? we're not. It would not imbalance the scales in that way.

Now, I know that everyone is loathe to 'step on the toes' of other classes. . .. well, I've zoned with just about every high level enchanter that plays and frankly, the consensus of their opinions is 'please give rangers haste so I don't have to hear them bitch all the time'

Am I right ?

Make it a quest, make it self only, make it whatever but it only makes sense and makes the lives of our already over burdened enchanters a bit easier.

If someone (mortal or immortal) can give me a legitimate reason as to why this is a bad idea and back it up, I'll shut up =P But, I really don't think that there IS a reason that is able to be backed up, thus this post.

Lost
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 20, 2002 3:53 am

Yup.

I hate hasting rangers. I don't hate rangers. I just hate hasting.

It doesn't last long enough, I have too many spells to cast as it is, and it's flat-out annoying.

(This belongs in another thread, but... Make some rogue-only haste items too. :P)
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:03 am

I only haste when I run into enemies that my spells just don't work too well against. (Demons, dragons, etc). Also, I often don't haste because I follow very impatient group leaders who don't like to wait for globes, much less hastes. (Cackle).


Baratos
izarek
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Postby izarek » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:34 am

Yayaril get back online! :P

*grovel*

Raev

[This message has been edited by izarek (edited 02-20-2002).]
Nilan
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Postby Nilan » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:50 am

Rangers got enough already

thats what mages are for to haste...

Nilan
kaitos
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Postby kaitos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:53 am

Yaya just casts to slow....

Actually not getting hastes was one of the reasons i stopped playing a ranger and being a pushy leader i almost never give the chanter enough time to haste anyone, even though I hated that when I played one. There are just so many other spells the chanter needs to be worrying about.

Any other class that may be along and has haste doesnt normally bother casting it cause its duration is horribly short and/or they have more effective spells that circle.

I would have no problem giving haste (one that last more then 10sec) to ranger, druid, anyone, even rylans mom if it would let enchanters have 1 less thing to worry about.

I miss perm-haste..... Image

-neno
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Postby Nilan » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:10 pm

How bout rogues, would you rangers have problems giving it to rogues *snicker*

Nilan
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:33 pm

OK now I'm going to take a shot at rogues.

Rangers already have enough? give me a break. Like rogues have ANY room to freaking even talk. You have more power than any single class in the game, and yet you have the balls to complain about rangers? My goodness, I can't believe that you would even open your mouth. If any class is begging for a downgrade it is rogue. They're practically immunue to spells via evasion, can instantly kill 90% of the mobs in the game (of course lvl 55+ its harder to do =P), can paralyze, blind, slow and damage mobs with poison, get 5 attacks (if you're a halfling, 4 otherwise) every other round _without haste_ (that is including circle, which is more powerfull than a regular attack), they can bash while dualing with as much efficiency as a ranger using a shield (with a wider range of viable targets), can interrupt spell casting and do more damage with a vital strike, can explore zones UNTOUCHED with their sneak/hide move ability, pick locks, pick pockets, detect and disarm traps and escape from combat without fleeing.

Did I miss anything ?

It is not my intention to get rogues downgraded. It is my inention to get those who already HAVE the world on a silver platter to stfu. Want to give rogues haste too ? sure, why not. they're already 10X better than rangers anyway. why not add to that?

Oh yeah, and the strongest abilities of the ranger are emulatable by dumping 2 or 3 plat on potions. quaff barkskin, quaff shiny. . .OOOo look, Im a ranger.

So do me a favor: do a little more intelligent research before you go spewing out nonsense.

/rant.

Sorry if I've offended anyone, but I'm tired of people offending me and me sitting here and taking it.

Lost.
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:48 pm

Here are your reasons:

1)Rangers have more utility in their spells than some mages and most warrior types and you can do damage while bashed, bash by yourself, rescue, and tank better than most classes too, why are you STILL complaining?

2)Rogues are cooler, but it takes MUCH more skill to play a rogue from what I've seen. If you think they're unfair, play it instead.

3) If invokers have to sweet talk to get stones, why shouldn't rangers need to for hastes? Oh wait, give invokers "self stone skin" instead, 2nd circle spell (opposite my 9 minor creations of course), it wouldn't unbalance the game, no..... :P

3) Quit bitching until Bards, Necros, and Battlechanters have a shot at half current ranger potential or roll a new class.

.....Wait, or try actually practicing all the spells/skills you get instead of whining? .....
I know rangers who bash and rescue as well as most warriors when they need to at their level....yet most don't practice it, they whine about archery and rogues being better when they have to practice more skills for longer, hrm.....

There's a reason Nokie's skills rock. He worked on 'em.

Flame away, ranger whining is still a funny joke to most ppl I talk to. :P

[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 02-20-2002).]
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:07 pm

Wow Torkur, you really show your ignorance and lack of skill in this game, thank you! =)

Allow me to enlighten you, ,and ask you to clarify:

1) You mention that rangers have more utility in their spells than most mages? pardon me ? I think that such a bold statement begs for at least one example. Do you have none ? or did you simply forget to mention them? The point being, ranger spells have no use or place in a group environment. You can't dispute that.

2) Your analogy of invokers asking for stone and rangers asking for haste is very poor. Do invokers require stone to do the most damage with their spells? hrmm let me check . . . nope! Rangers need to sweet talk for stone too, because indeed they don't tank well and require it to survive when rescuing invokers =P Hell, most leaders tell rangers NOT to rescue. Wanna know why? because they die =P I'd also like to point out that giving invokers 2nd circle stone is a far cry from a 10th circle self haste. if you can't see that, then. . .well there really is no hope for you.

3)my skills are maxed. Oh, wait, no I didnt max bandage. I do so see how that would make me a better ranger. Give me a break if you think that my relevant skills are not top notch. You bore me with your weak arguments and uneducated babble.

I will say one thing to you, you make a good point about bards and necros. I am in full agreement that they need help way before any ranger consideration should take place. But, I give the gods here enough credit that they are smart enough to handle some non-linear thinking and work on at least thinking about several changes at once.

Nowhere has anyone demanded any changes NOW or before any other class. Sorry, can't slam me on that one.

Again, I love to hear what people who have no clue about the class think that makes it so powerfull. Torkur I imagine you're an evil race player? so . . . *laugh* anyway, it was funny to see you try. =)

Lost.
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Postby Ilshadrial » Wed Feb 20, 2002 8:07 pm

Oh give me a break, you post just ment jack, all you did was flame and give no reasoning behind any of your points if there were any. Pull the trigger please, geezus.

Ranger tank? Now that is fucking funny!
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:07 pm

I think Ilshad summed it up nicely.

If you haven't played a ranger to 46+, if you aren't a goodie this wipe to see it, if you're too stupid to post concrete evidence:

Keep your nose out of the thread. This is a constructive thread for an idea for rangers. You have absolutely no clue how they are now.

I would also like to state that I am tired of everyone jumping on the bandwagon by saying all rangers do is whine about their class.

Sorry, they have a reason. No more than bards and battlechanters, obviously, but they have a reason.

So yes, please, pull the trigger.
torkur
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:15 pm

Actually I'm an invoker and a goodie, shows what you know there as well.

Concrete evidence, hrm.....

1) Our utility spells..hrm....fireshield? We're the only mage class without stone type spells (necros get protection undead, so with auto rescuing pets, it's the same) and clerics get vits/heals and a hella more hp than mages.
Wow, that'll save me over barkskinning swords, Windsong, the fact that when I'm bashed, i can still hit the same with dualing weapons over my barehanded, get faerie fire to help u damage more, pwt I believe you have, ranger food innate, healing spells, create a well for water....nope you guys just suck on utility there, wow......

2) 2nd circle was sarcasm that you obviously weren't smart enough to figure out. The point being that every class would love "that enchanter spell" that would help them out greatly, but it kinda screws over another class. As has been posted on here many times, that's what necros turn into in a group setting, hasters.....hell, what my necro friend is most often too, so why not just throw them out and give all there stuff to rangers? :P Or give warriors archery, paladins haste too, enchanters force missiles, illusionists stone skin, etc....

3) If you've notched your skills and still don't see the point of rangers bashing nor rescuing, well F*** you then.

I've stayed in many a fight to cast my last damage spell to help the group even if I die myself, nice to know you don't return the favor. *bird*

Two bashing rangers > any single warrior bashing and keep is from switching, be nice if you tried it. I've seen level 46+ rangers complain they have to bash whenever it comes up, gimme a break.
Also, who do you see die the most in a group? The casters 3 bodies to 1...why? Cause we tank even worse than you do, but wait, we wouldn't want to save the casters, no.....especially since that round or two extra you might live allows for more than 1 or 2 failed rescues by the warriors and paladins.

I've played for 5 years now and been both the warrior and the casters so shove the not knowing garbage....It's SO fun for casters to sit there and watch 3 rounds go by of failed warrior rescues, then die, and have the ranger bitching and laughing that cring you will slow down the zone when they could've just as easily tried to rescue you.

And since most of you just go f***ing robot on ship or other xp and have half the xp tables of a caster, why care if you die more? Oh wait, you'd have to do more that shoot your little arrows.....

Still don't see why one of the classes with the most potential already to different situations should get further spell treatment over specialized classes in a grouping enviroment.


[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 02-20-2002).]

[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 02-20-2002).]
Waelos
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Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:28 pm

Bitter! party of one!

Your baseless banter has done more than reveal you as a lowbie wannabe. 5 years of playing doesnt mean anything if you're sitting at fountain all that time. Oh and the vulgarity. . . so classy! Can you star out some more naughty words for us ? Fact is, 90% of the casting classes that would be so trodden upon by this idea support it. You can't deny that. But nice try.

*laugh* dude you're so sad I'm not going to waste any more of my time.

Oh, and congrats on being flame #2 all time of my posting! =)

Lost.
Xebes
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Postby Xebes » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:44 pm

I'd think lost knows wtf he's talking about when the subject is rangers. We're not discussing XP situations here, at all.

In most difficult zones I wouldn't trust a ranger to bash anything essential, just because the skill caps lower so it really isn't as reliable from what I have seen.

Now, what you have primarily when looking at a ranger is a tank-like player with lower hps and the ability to hit for more attacks (more overall damage compared to a warrior).
I'm not putting archery into the equation because of the vast number of missile-shielded mobs, archery is rarely used except for luring in zone situations.

The lower hp level of rangers and lower caps on tanking skills (or lack thereof, they get neither shieldblock nor flankblock, making them not much better than any other non-tank class at tanking a mob) means that they usually do not tank because they will die _very_ quickly. However, they still have the rescue/bash, etc skills. So in essence, to perform their "role" in a zone group to the fullest, they need to be spelled up with stone/blur/haste. Without all 3 of those spells, they pretty much get owned tanking, or in the case of haste, don't do as much damage as rogues (the primary "hitting" class) by far.

As a zoning enchanter, I agree with what Waelos is stating- the most annoying spell I _ever_ cast is haste, far and beyond anything. When there's 5-6 warriors/rangers/rogues in a group and all want haste, that means one fight later, the hastes all will have expired. In addition, zone leaders in general do _not_ want to stop and wait 30-40seconds for me to mem back hastes after each and every fight.
So on one side we get hit with "I need haste", on the other side I get hit with "don't cast so much, you need to mem way too often!"

The solutions I'd see to this problem are:
a) increase the duration of haste
This is a big one too. Doubling or tripling the duration a haste lasts would remove the annoyance factor w/o making the spell more powerful per se.
b) give haste to some other class (which has partially been done)
Necros and elementalists do also cast haste, yes. However, everyone wants haste from the _enchanter_ because if enchanter hastes last a minute, necro/elementalist hastes seem to fade within about the blink of an eye. If necro and elementalist haste lasted the same or longer duration than enchanter, that would be a step in the right direction. Giving rangers self-haste would get rid of one person demanding spells in addition to something that could be a FUN spellquest for rangers (just _give_ it to them? nah... call it something else and make them quest for it)

Well, that's my long 2 cents on the issue.


------------------
-<(#)>- Xebes makes your heart start to race REAL FAST!
torkur
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:50 pm

lol rangers are rangers...luckily other classes make up for them.

I'm not part of "The Clique", so obviously I'm a newbie to you. Funny my level 43 doesn't say that to other ppl, nor my level 39 at last wipe, etc.....

Most mage classes give you your way to shut you up temporarily. I have been there/done that many times. Ranger whining 101 should be a help file they add at char gen.

Listen to the real players and ask for missile shields to be chipable or try a different role in groups.
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Postby Malacar » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:56 pm

And again Torkur proves himself an ass.

3nj0y

You're an invoker.. Yay? This is a thread on rangers? How far do you have to pull your head out of your ass to realize that?

I have foundation speaking of rangers. (I played one for what... 5 or 6 years, Waelos?) I had 2 level 50 rangers. I talk to Weylarii daily about rangers. I have a right to stuff my nose in here. I am also an enchanter. I cast the said haste spell.

You are a really bitter person who has played for 5 years, and thinks he deserves to be king shit. I have been playing closer to 10, and I still don't know everything.. Though sometimes I act like I do. A fault of mine, I fully admit it.

Step back, really take a look at the situation, and realize you are on the losing end, and bow out quietly.

Xebes - Even upping spell duration wouldn't make me cast it more. I agree it SHOULD be upped however, even if RangerHaste gets imped, which the chance of this is very slight, imo. A self-target haste as a quest spell would be neat. A toy for those fights where you can't arch. Period. I think the bigger problem was also brought up here.. About missile shield and archery. Perhaps another thread needs to be made concerning this. I don't agree that all mage mobs should have missile shield... Most mobs are part mage. Most mobs will have it. I can definitely see why rangers are a little annoyed at this.

I get yelled at in zones for not hasting. I am too busy glancing, blurring, globing, dscaling, eshielding, flying, reducing, enlarging, airy watering, etc etc etc... Get my drift? I have too many spells on a spellup, and when I am a single enchanter for 8 hitters/tanks, frankly, warriors/paladins/antipaladins get totally overlooked for haste. Rangers often do too. I haste rogues, because they do a lot of melee damage. That's about it.

P.S. - You are level 43? Yay. I have met many a level 43 newbie that doesn't know their jobs. Frankly, your level doesn't impress me. If I have grouped with you, and god I hope not, then I would base you on your skill and attitude. So far, you lose on the attitude respect.

P.P.S. - Why don't you post your invoker name, like the rest of us have? Or too busy hiding behind your drivel and lame opinions to show your true face? Oh, sorry... I thought you might have spine.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 02-20-2002).]
torkur
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 20, 2002 10:59 pm

Xebes,

I can agree with that way of thinking, but....

On the other hand, necros PETS can cast hastes.....no mem times, hell they spell ppl up while the necro mems, and can continuously redo them in battle. Add that to the necros pets today finally being upgraded to hopefully survive in some of the prime higher zones, and they arguably fill the role better than an enchanter who has too much to worry about as it is.

It doesn't solve zones like Jot for lack of pet-able mobs, but who said zones like that had to be fast to do? Seems like tweaking in the spell duration beats adding a warrior-class able to cast another spell 3 PC classes and pets can already do.
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Postby Waelos » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:01 pm

"lol rangers are rangers...luckily other classes make up for them."

The moron makes my point for me.

Thanks for your constructive support, folks =)

Lost.
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Postby Avendrys » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:21 pm

Ok, I haven't been playing this character long, I'm a level 22 halfelf ranger. I personally think the class is great, and yea, at my level there's not a lot of skill involved in typing 'wield bow;afire whoever', and carve is good enough that I pretty much always have a full quiver. That might change, just speaking from the 20ish point of view. But I'd just like to point out that my sister is playing a human elementalist with far less agility and a little less ac, and tanks about twice as well as I do. Please don't talk about rangers as tanks.
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Postby sok » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:26 pm

i haven't been a goodie for a while. but i'm alway in favor of upgrading players and downgrading mobs. if it's not going to be over-balancing sure. if necros haste isn't good enuf. if u only bring 1 enchanter for 8 hitting type, and malacar has to cast airy water in every zone, yep enchanter are over. i wouldn't know if ranger sucked, i ranger trazt was pretty spiffy but then again he was just a twink. do i have a point nope. just didn't want torkur to get beat on too bad. sok
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Postby Aderon » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:33 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>Xebes,

I can agree with that way of thinking, but....

On the other hand, necros PETS can cast hastes.....no mem times, hell they spell ppl up while the necro mems, and can continuously redo them in battle. Add that to the necros pets today finally being upgraded to hopefully survive in some of the prime higher zones, and they arguably fill the role better than an enchanter who has too much to worry about as it is.

It doesn't solve zones like Jot for lack of pet-able mobs, but who said zones like that had to be fast to do? Seems like tweaking in the spell duration beats adding a warrior-class able to cast another spell 3 PC classes and pets can already do.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1. Jot has mobs that can be made into pets.

2. Necros don't have to use pets to cast haste.

3. Your posts don't make sense please stop.

That is all...

Aderon
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Postby torkur » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:47 pm

ROFL....

Um, Malacar are you that dense? Ok...hrm....my name.....um, Torkur?


Fine Aderon. I also said the CAN use pets, not had to use them.

You win guys, I'm just a noob who sits at the fountain cause I haven't been asked by Dornax to help out, so I must not have led anything nor tried anything.

Just never ask me to group with you when you need an invoker. I'll make my own friends and obviously l33t are way too good for me and too high and mighty knowing all about balancing the mud from every level of player here.



[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 02-20-2002).]
Pock!
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Postby Pock! » Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:53 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>
It doesn't solve zones like Jot for lack of pet-able mobs,</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hrm, i'be neber come across a mob i couldn't pet.. what a pock..
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Postby Nitania » Thu Feb 21, 2002 12:09 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by torkur:
<B>ROFL....

Um, Malacar are you that dense? Ok...hrm....my name.....um, Torkur?


Fine Aderon. I also said the CAN use pets, not had to use them.

You win guys, I'm just a noob who sits at the fountain cause I haven't been asked by Dornax to help out, so I must not have led anything nor tried anything.

Just never ask me to group with you when you need an invoker. I'll make my own friends and obviously l33t are way too good for me and too high and mighty knowing all about balancing the mud from every level of player here.

[This message has been edited by torkur (edited 02-20-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What brings Dornax into this discussion? He hasnt even posted here!

The amount of hatred in this thread frightens me.

Nitania
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:20 am

Thank you Nit, I was about to say the same thing. There's somebody new in Dornax's groups almost every time I'm with him, he's very "noob" friendly... even if you aren't a noob.
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Postby Jayden » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:34 am

I’m going to keep this constructive and hopefully turn this post into something the gods might be able to look at without cringing and just ignoring. *agree Nitania* This is way to frightening.

The question seems to be whether rangers would be overbalanced with haste. I don’t agree. The main question should be whether rangers should get haste at all. The answer is no. Waelos’s problem should be with his lazy enchanters. I always haste my hitters and, yes, that includes rangers. The only time I don’t is when they start to arch. If a ranger is arching don’t expect a haste.

A lot of classes lack a certain ability or skill. That is why you have to group. Now I know you know this, but it can be easily forgotten in frustration.

I remember the haste items from before Soj3 and I can honestly say I never saw the spell cast on anyone. I was so happy to see that effect on an item taken out. It makes the classes that can haste that much more useful. So beg, plead, threaten your haster if you need one because, while I can sympathize with Waeloe’s plight, my opinion rangers should not get haste.
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Postby izarek » Thu Feb 21, 2002 1:44 am

!ranger haste

nuke missile shield

end of discussion
Cerlayne
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Postby Cerlayne » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:03 am

let me start out by saying this.. i haven't played a ranger.. prob never will.. for some reason the class doesn't appeal to me.. shrug... so anything i have to say is based on my experiences of having grouped with rangers and talking to them... that being said... i am totally amazed by the flames that waelos is getting here!!! out of anyone to post bout rangers.. this person has an unbelievable amount of knowledge about the game and the class of ranger...

I'm not part of "The Clique", so obviously I'm a newbie to you. Funny my level 43 doesn't say that to other ppl, nor my level 39 at last wipe, etc.....

freaking boggle... i am not a so called member of 'the clique' either.. yet i have grouped with waelos a number of times... as a ranger he is not expected to bash unless all warriors already are.. and i may not include rangers on my rescue triggers but i have a seperate one for them... as a tank they last less then i do.... i have never seen waelos do anything but be the best at his class... personally i'd rather see the missile shield be fixed rather then have rangers get self haste.. but in my mind ranger self haste would not overly imbalance the game at all and would take some pressure off the casters...

as a personal note torkur... why not stick to the actual original issue and stop flaming people based on your narrow mindedness..


Surly
izarek
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Postby izarek » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:29 am

When you've angered Cerlayne, you know you've gone too far! Tsk tsk!

Raev
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Postby Nilan » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:30 am

I have played a ranger and a rogue to level 50....

I rest my case *bow*

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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:41 am

Jayden, I take your comment about lazy personally.

Not only am I not lazy as an Enchanter, I am one of the more active ones. It's why I get grouped so much. Not because I am last choice, or only enchanter.

I choose not to haste because I am busy with my job, don't want huge memtimes, and I like to think I do it well. There's no reason Enchanters should have THREE times the spellups of any other classes. You want to haste? Fine, go right ahead. I will let you take hitters in all groups from now on.

Disagree all you want, it's your right. I just feel that was a semi-attack on me and Xebes, since we chimed in with our opinions. I am trying with all my might to not flame you, hope I succeeded.

Oh and Torkur? You can be absolutely positive I would never group with you.

[This message has been edited by Malacar (edited 02-20-2002).]
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:43 am

Oh, another point... I think I agree with the fix of Missile Shield more than haste... But I still feel they should get self-haste. That's from my selfish perspective mostly tho. Image
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:51 am

Don't expect a haste from me unless I'm bored or you bribe me. I am lazy.


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Postby Sarvis » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:54 am

Nilan, when was the last time you played a ranger?

Ok, my turn. Image Haste would be tasty. Unbalancing? I somehow doubt it. The simple fact seems to be that enchanters don't like hasting us all the time, so we don't get hasted. Almost every caster that has posted wants us to get it, or at least to have it's duration upped so it's not so annoying to use constantly. (Except for one invoker, who doesn't count because invokers never have to deal with the annoyance of spelling people up constantly!)

My Solution:

Give rangers a hard quest for a self only haste-like spell. The spell would grant one extra attack every _other_ turn. (So it's actually half as effective as haste.)

ALSO

Give enchanters a spell which either destroys missile shield, or weakens it so it drops faster. This way 'chanters are still needed for rangers to do our job most effectively, but they don't need to cast something 20 times before each fight.

As for the tanking issue. Well, I've known clerics that can tank better than I can. And enchanters have all the spells necessary for tanking, and the massive hp from eq. About the only classes that don't tank better than ranger are bard, rogue, and a cute bunny! Image



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Postby Maladryn » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:28 am

The point is that not all classes will get every spell they want or could use. Priests SURE COULD use detect invisibility, but they don't get it because it isn't part of a priest's repertoire of spells. 10th circle haste for rangers, whether it be self or others, is a nice idea but I disagree that the spell should be given to rangers. It defeats the whole purpose of a 'mage'.

Just like a mage shouldn't be given barkskin, a ranger shouldn't be given haste.

It WOULD be nice if another mage class had the haste spell however, due to the fact that enchanters are the most overburdened class in the game. They're the hardest to level, the hardest to play well, and also the most annoying to play based on what I can see.

Plain and simple rangers get 'some' spells, much like a Paladin, and 'some' tanking skills. You're probably sitting there laughing at the tanking part but rangers tank probably 50% better than a cleric and about 75% better than a mage, which means they get 'some' tanking skills. Rangers are 2nd best at melee damage next to rogues, but rogues get no spells whatsoever.

The line has to be drawn somewhere, rangers are excellent at several things, and 'half way decent' at most others. Not all classes will be leaned totally in one direction.

Just like my class, we're TOTALLY offensive, and -ZERO- defensive, but enchanters and illusionists have SOME mix of both of those, illusionists even more so. It just goes to show certain classes are balanced different ways.
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Postby Aderon » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:59 am

Just because they have tanking ability doesn't mean I would want a ranger tanking. Give invokers riposte and shieldblock, I still wouldn't want my invoker tanking. Rangers simply lack the ability to tank. Their best use in the tanking area is sacrificing themselves for a mage or cleric.

Also, the bashing issue was mentioned above. Two rangers backing each other up with bashes still does not equal one warrior bashing. However, the minute you put a shield into my hands, I lose the main purpose of what I am in the group to do: deal damage. Just like above with the tanking, just because Rangers can bash does not mean I would want them bashing.

Someone mentioned above that they are the second strongest melee class. I would have to disagree with this by saying a 2h warrior loaded up on hit and dam or pal/anti may be able to hit harder. However, if you assume that ranger is better than a 2h'ing warrior or pal, they are a far distant second to rogues.

If you would like to bring windsong into the equation, I am sure a strong arguement can be made that rogues have better rogue only eq overall than one sword.

If you have not played a high level ranger and felt the hardships accompanying the class, you should try it. I am not going to flame anyone for posting. I will simply say level your char up. Forget 46+, when you get to 36+, you will see that the class is missing something. You will realize that you do not do as much damage as you thought and that archery is just a novelty like fake vomit until missile shield is fixed.

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Postby Abbayarra » Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:20 am

Why are you guys getting upset over Torkur?
He's just yanking your guys chains and laughing.
LMFAO
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Postby Jayden » Thu Feb 21, 2002 7:34 am

I find it rather humerous. If you say, “I hope I didn’t flame you,” guess what? You’re probably doing it. But everyone is entitled to their opinion and nothing said here will bother me Image

You can think I’m the worst enchanter there is, you have your opinion. And I’m sure Xebes can speak for himself. All I’m saying is that I can cast all the spells needed, scale/globe/blur and others such as blink/pris/blind/constric/di/dm/gates, be able to mem it all back before most other casters, and still have time to haste my hitters. And if you don’t, then don’t. That’s fine with me.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Feb 21, 2002 8:12 am

Can we get back on topic? I had this long post typed out, but it's simply not worth it. I know what I put in there, and why.

Jayden, you are the better man, you can do it all. Kudos.

Now that I've gotten that out of my system... Could a god possibly input on the status of haste and/or missile shield? It's become obvious so far that the majority would rather see missile shield changed than rangers getting a self-only haste. I don't understand the viewpoint, but acknowledge it. One fix is relatively on par with the other.. So I would like to see comments on either/one of these.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:23 am

No, Rangers aren't going to get a self-only haste.

However, I understand the inherent problem, and have some ideas on how to fix it in a different manner more in keeping with our 'combined arms' class balancing.

Sadly, this thread has made me so disgusted that I don't really feel like discussing said ideas here at the moment, lest I stir the flames any higher than they already are.



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Postby Calinth » Thu Feb 21, 2002 9:39 am

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Shevarash:
<B>

Sadly, this thread has made me so disgusted that I don't really feel like discussing said ideas here at the moment, lest I stir the flames any higher than they already are.

</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone surprised?

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Postby Sylvos » Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:38 pm

No, not surprised.

In the ideas thread, I had posted an idea for a ranger spell that would deal with missile shield.

In addition, elementalists already get (I believe) a spell that should remove the low level enchantments - of which missile shield is one.

If Shevie says he's got some ideas about it, then that's awesome and we're pissin in the wind. But I'd like to offer my services as a kind of sounding board for ideas if interested. I've been playing ranger for a long time, and in general want to see justice/fairness done more than I want to see ranger-uberness achieved. I am against the self-haste idea because we've become more geared towards archery. It's a shame, I'd like the choice between melee or archery but if we're archers then I'd like to see a spell or skill to allow us to be more effective against boss-mobs with MShield.

Shevie, I know you've got your own sounding boards but please feel free to contact me if you want some additional feedback. joe@cbsa.on.ca

Thanks. Image

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Postby moritheil » Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:50 pm

holy cow, I walk away from bbs for a week or so and FLAMEWAR!

Torkur is frustrated at vokers' lack of ability to solo. I've seen it for several threads now. That being said, I can't agree with his bitterness towards other classes. Clearly he believes, as many people do about their own classes, that upgrading his class should be a priority over upgrading some other class he feels is 'fine'.

Out of curiosity, what does the proc bow proc, haste?
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Postby Gort » Thu Feb 21, 2002 4:45 pm

Thanks Shev,

I appreciate your actually posting what you did on this thread. It is the only reason I'm even posting the above comment.


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Postby Zrax » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:00 pm

If a ranger whines in the woods does anyone hear him?
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Postby izarek » Thu Feb 21, 2002 5:38 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by moritheil:
Out of curiosity, what does the proc bow proc, haste?</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! Great quote.
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Postby torkur » Thu Feb 21, 2002 10:45 pm

Mori,
I don't want invokers only solo better, we are what we are for balance and it'd mean removing inferno, force missiles, etc at the high end if we got any spell protection oriented. Don't like it, but such is life. My requests for utility are more the annoyance of no fly, no little nothing pets, etc.

I probably shouldn't have flamed as I did here specifically towards Waelos and Malacar, but that partly also came right after reading Kallinar's posting for seriously adding vitality and fheals to ranger class as well as haste and I kinda lumped in into the category of the many threads I've read over the years. Sorry for the anger towards Waelos' suggestion, but not sorry to the other ridiculous stuff seriously being asked. Hence my comment on 2nd circle invoker stone skins.

I also know I've gotten far worse than a flamy critque on ideas I've posted here. Even my post looking for electrum rings a couple weeks ago got a couple smart assed comments about going neutral and half the threads here are back and forth about somebody's opinion not being correct to another.

That said, it still is a utility class from what the gods seem to make it. It does better at damage than some in damage mode, it does better at tanking than others in tank mode, it does better than some at low-mid level healing/mage spells than some. It shouldn't be better or even comparable to any specialized class and perm haste will only serve to do that more. That's what I should've been more tactful in saying. Making rangers better hitters should mean removing some other abilities, not adding simply more stuff.

That said too, yea, I admit I want mages in general to tank better, not just invokers, but that's why a couple of my alts are warrior-types and I do take offense when people laugh about rangers never using tanking above level 36.
If I can tank Skeloh for 3 rounds with 390 hp and a dodge skill maxed at 17, and no spells on me, I still don't understand how a ranger with 450 hp, better ac, and what, parry?, dodge?, can't last another 3 rounds after saving me, so the warrior-types have 6 total rounds to rescue either of us. It also allows my 500-1000 hp damage specialty spells to be cast instead of dying, which I thought was why you brought an invoker along in the first place over another ranger.
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Postby Treladian » Thu Feb 21, 2002 11:36 pm

Glad to see this thread dying, but I just thought I should say something about ranger tanking: A decked out high level ranger tanks worse then a decked out high level caster. Well equipped clerics and mages (with the exception of grey elf casters in MOST cases) will easily have about twice as many hps as I do, even if I put on hp rings. Since parry and dodge don't do jack against criticals, mobs that have insane strength like efreet will simply ream a ranger with maxxed skills faster then they will the caster. Against mobs that have mage spells, which basically means the vast majority of big mobs in zones, there's the added issue of a 4/5 rate of hasted attack causing any stone or dscales to chip away within 3-6 rounds of starting the fight. Scales on a caster will last MUCH longer then it will for a ranger. Displacement is pretty much the only defensive spell I can count on actually helping me if I wind up tanking. This is why a ranger tanks worse then a caster despite having greater natural hps and tanking skills. The former is easily overcompensated for by casters and the latter means jack against many mobs and can be equaled by enough hps against mobs they do matter against.

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Postby gordex » Fri Feb 22, 2002 6:46 am

Teladian,

You tank better than I do!

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