Enchanted Crystal Pendants

Archive of the Sojourn3 Gameplay Discussion Forum.
Jurdex
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Enchanted Crystal Pendants

Postby Jurdex » Fri Mar 22, 2002 6:15 am

I would like to see pendants removed from the game. If that is too drastic, a different quest would be the logical choice, in my opinion.

My reasons:

1) We have a much smaller player base

2) There are no more group heal staves (no Tiamat has completed her since they were removed)

3) The ress quest is drastically different and by far better than the one before. On Sojourn1 I reached 46 and Joth took me to get ress. I didn't do anything except turn the pendant in and give it back to Joth for a future tiamat run. I didn't know the quest. This is happening again (and its a shame because the quest is very cool albeit difficult).

4) The loss of exp is enough to ensure Tiamat won't be done every other weekend.

5) If the loss of exp doesn't ensure Tiamat isn't done every other weekend, organizing 30 people isn't easy or doable often.

6) With the pendant quest before, a leader was able to record who helped with each pendant because it was so short and this made assigning numbers of bids a lot easier (Example: Bob helped get 30 pendants, he gets 10 bids versus Bill who helped get 3 pendants getting 1 bid, or whatever)

7) I would like the outcome of the battle to come down to the groups sheer determination and prowess versus whether or not they were able to spend forever questing 20 pendants or what not.

That's all. Thanks for the time.

Dornax
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 22, 2002 7:43 am

On one level I agree very much with jurdex. Its ridiculous that res quests are being done in order to get a pendant, and that getting a cleric res (and allowing the cleric to enjoy the quest) is completely secondary. I dont think they should be taken out however. A more reasonable solution is to give them a different quest which is of an appropriate difficulty level for a group full heal item.

Corth
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Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 22, 2002 1:16 pm

i dislike the full heal pendants period, and really they only exist for one reason, to kill tiamat, and generally its required a dozen of them. id rather see a different way of making tiamat hard than to need a dozen full heal pendants.

id like to see tiamat be a quest that you guys run every 3 months, 6 months or something. not sure how to develop this idea, so ill leave it at that and make soem different suggestions.

Since full heal pendants will prolly remain the only way to do tiamat, instead of a quest, you might just random load a pendant or two every boot on very high level mobs or boss mobs (depending on how often players find them and how many you want to enter the game ect, !locate obviously). might consider random loading one on any level mob rather than just high level mobs. Also, add some sort of global each time a pendant is recovered.

Why? Any pendant quest you make is going to get farmed. is that what you want? people doing a quest over and over and over racing to/hoarding the pieces every boot? That creates a lot of bad tension imo. competition is good, but i think this kind of stuff brings out the ugly in competition. Also, random loading them could have an immense impact at more than the elite level.

high level people that dont feel like zoning will have more of a reason to zone rather than twinking a quest or alts. the flow of eq down to lower level people will increase.

The global will let folks know if the pendant(s) were found or not found this boot ect creating its own sort of tension/mystique. loading one on low level mobs will once in a while allow a low level person find an incredible treasure once in a while.

additionally with 40,60,80 hour boots, it takes weeks if not months to collect pendants. You could alter the # of pendants load to the length of boots ect.
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Mar 22, 2002 8:07 pm

Kiryan's ideas seem to be well thought out, but I disagree with him on most points. I don't like the idea that Tiamat should be a quest run every 3-6 months by the gods. A good majority of your post is about creating bad tension between groups. You don't think if one group got to go to Tiamat over another because of a god's selection that there would be no bad blood? Claims of favoritism?

Second, the random placing of pendants on mobs of any level. You're right, pendants are in the game for one reason: Tiamat. If you start placing them on any mob of any level, you're going to have people getting them that don't understand their importance, and using them in zones that without the pendants are mildly difficult, but with them, basically bringing back Jurdex's group full heal axe (that was badass, btw).

Third, the idea that any quest is going to be a race each boot. Well, yeah you're probably right, if it's made as easy as it was in the past. As of now, I agree that it shouldn't be apart of the res quest, as all some groups are doing is handing res to new level 46 clerics. That kind of takes the fun out of it. However, I think whatever quest it ends up apart of should end up similarly difficult, thus making it so it can't necessarily be done at the drop of a hat. This will make it so the first group capable of doing it, does it.

The high level people that don't feel like zoning would be forced to go out and zone? I disagree. It's going to be the same people as before that go out and do the pendants. Changing where they load isn't going to change who has the ambition to do them.

Yes, with 40, 60, and 80 hour boots, it's going to take weeks, if not months to collect enough pendants for Tiamat. Personally, I think that's a good thing. Back on Toril, I can remember doing Tiamat 4 weekends in a row. It was being done at a rate of almost once every two weeks. Something that gives you the best equipment in the game should only be doable every few months or so. Kiryan himself said that the gods should only run a quest for Tiamat every 3-6 months. Well, by making it tough to do the pendants, you accomplish the same goal, while at the same time not limiting which group gets to go. DSR is planning on doing it this weekend. They have put in a lot of work for it. In addition, I believe Imphras is also planning on doing Tiamat in the very near future. They too put in a great deal of work, but it was not decided by the gods which group was allowed to go and which wasn't.

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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 23, 2002 3:07 am

the brief paragraph on making tiamat a quest was more of an ideal, wheres as my suggestions for the pendants more practical. I didnt elaborate on making tiamat a quest, because of the issues you mention, but I had some time to think about it and this is how id start.

If I were to do design it, id have the players complete sub quest for artifacts held by the gods, but used by players during RP sessions. Then after they acquired enough artifacts to have a reasonable chance against tiamat, commence the war on tiamat.

Id keep a sign up, and a who went lists and at a minimum keep the same player (or alts) from going to a successful tiamat run more than 1x every x months (dunno 6? 9?).

As I understand, Tiamat is not a 15 man group thing, so you'd have a pool of maybe 40-50 players. Each session wouldnt necessarily have to have the same 15 people, so scheduling shouldnt be too hard. And if your serious about doing tiamat you will have to make the time to attend at least 1 session. The artifact wielders would be selected by the god, but would tend to go to the people who made the most RP sessions or performed exceptional RP (artifacts would be taken away at the end of each mini-session).

Why? first, everyone loves artifacts, but hates not being the one to have them. So, an opportunity for multiple folks to use artifacts in controlled role play environments. Hopefully eliminates the whine play that player x has an artifact and i dont, yet brings back the awe if just for an hour or two a month without disrupting game play balance.

Also, heres the thing that Ive seen about high level players and zones. when a player needs eq from zone, he zones like mad. When he gets everything from every zone, he stops zoning, rolls and alt and repeats process, or quests or quits. Now while its true that it would take a couple years of full time play to do everything in the game (every class, different sides or races, quests), you could say that Tiamat is the end of the game. once you've acquired tiamat eq what is left to do?

therefore, to keep the mystique and the anticipation, tiamat shouldnt be done by the same players every time. Yes they have the most ambition, but they also tend to stomp on the ambitions of others.

more on pendant quest

now more on the practical side, with boots varying in length drastically, a quest is imo not the best solution for pendants at the moment. Occasionally we have the 5 reboot days, then we have the 2-4 day boots. With pendants being on mobs (randomly) the flow of pendants into the game will be more consistent. On super fast boots, pendants wuold be very unlikely to be found. On super long boots, pendants would be very likely to be found. If you have significant changes in boot times you can adjust the number of pendants up or down. Not only this, you are rewarded for zoning consistently rather than consistently twinking a quest, even a hard quest.

Consider, who plays this game that doesnt like to zone? Personally, Id rather zone all day long rather than twink the same quest over and over. But if twinking a quest is what is necessary to do tiamat, i will definitely race to the quest items every boot along with everyone else provided someone will tell me the quest.

Im against the pendant quests, it was/will be farmed. in order to complete the most difficult and awe inispiring zone... you have to race to quest items every boot and do the same quest a couple dozen times? thats just lame (but very practical and hands off).
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 23, 2002 4:15 am

better yet do both, change the pendant quest and add pendants that random load on 55+ level mobs.
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Postby Xebes » Sat Mar 23, 2002 5:01 am

Kiryan- I like most of your idea, what about still making the pendants in parts though?

Say the quest is a mob way off somewheres, needs to bring together a certain four pieces to complete the pendant.
Then load the _pieces_ on random mobs within certain zones. It makes it still a quest, but adds a degree of randomness so that people aren't farming the same mobs.

For example, maybe one piece of the pendant could load _either_ on the griffon in brass, one of the fire giants in jot, or a couple other places (only in 1 place per boot tho). This means that you're not doing zones just for pendants per se, but you'll gradually accumulate pendants if you regularly zone.

Would this not make the pendant quest hard enough to not make pendants a common item and only used for tiamat, while also preventing it from being farmed just for pendants? There's still the risk that a certain group will do a set of zones to get certain pieces- HOWEVER, it also means that you're hitting zones, not just doing the quest over and over again.

Comments? Kiryan, I'd especially like to know what you think of my modification of your ideas.


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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 23, 2002 7:39 am

Some good ideas in this forum. I'm just glad that at least everyone seems to agree that pendants shouldn't have anything to do with res quest. Would like to see a god comment upon this since there is an unusually broad consensus here.

Corth
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 23, 2002 12:20 pm

yea i like your suggestions xebes, but i think the zones choices could be different due to the same people doing the same zone every boot. The random element within a zone is interesting, but youd have to be super careful about the zone choice or you will have 5 man teams searching for pendant pieces rather than groups doing zones.

I might suggest MD on star silver sleeves mob (perhaps too hard, maybe dracolich), SF on mogdath, CC on dred. zones that are after thoughts rather than zones that are primary choices yet have a good haul, are difficult, and especially zones that require a full group. The other way i might go is put it in zones that are never get done (worked for sf snicker). Id suggest imix/yan but folks will probably do that for the sb anyhow and you can do everything but the last fights with just 4 or 5 folks.
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Postby Xebes » Sat Mar 23, 2002 4:56 pm

Yeah, kiryan, I agree with that.
My thought was at least two of the pieces cycle through some of the less-done zones,
while you could put a piece on zones that are frequently done (so you eventually gather some pieces just in your normal zoning cycle) I don't think you always should need a full group to get to every single location for the pendant pieces. What about something like deep in trollbark for one of the random load locations for one piece?

Here's another point to discuss: if pendant pieces were implemented this way, should they be made rareload (like 75-80%), or always loading but still random?

-xeb

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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Mar 23, 2002 9:41 pm

I've been to avernus a couple of times, and helped with other parts of the ress quest, but I don't really know it, so have patience with me.

Let's say one of the larger guilds like DSR or Imphras is planning a tia run, and starts doing the quest for the pendants. Doesn't this kind of keep upcoming clerics from doing their ress quests?

I have no issues with the pendants being really hard to get, but ress quest is already difficult enough, if doing tia takes precedence over getting ress, that's just not right.

Somebody please tell me I'm on the wrong track.
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 24, 2002 1:35 am

DSR has already done numerous pendants, but it hasn't stopped clerics from getting ress.

(Well, except it did stop us from doing Nizari for Lirela like 3 boots in a row, poke!)

Other than that they've been very generous in helping clerics get ress. So much so that I doubt those clerics really had to do a whole lot for ress, which is why everyone here dislikes the current format, I think. I mean say you collect pendants and don't give them to clerics needing ress? That sucks. So then you give them to clerics needing ress and it still has its drawbacks. A lose-lose situation.

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Postby Corth » Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:42 am

Nods, our generosity was for selfish reasons. Its so difficult to do that quest to get pendants that we have clerics do as much of the quest as possible and then just trade them the completed quest item for the items they have collected and the full heal pendant they get when they finish the quest. It makes it easier for us to do pendants, but at the expense of taking away a cool quest from clerics.

I didnt like to do this but there wasn't much choice for us if we wanted to have pendants for tia.

Happily, it now seems that tia is doable with minimal or no pendants. This is what I think Dornax was asking for, and I'm glad it turned out that way. I guess this thread becomes a bit of a moot point.

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Postby Glorishan » Sun Mar 24, 2002 8:43 am

Update: Tia's doable without pendants ;-)

Glorishan - On Vacation
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Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 24, 2002 4:04 pm

wanna bet she gets an upgrade?

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 03-24-2002).]
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Postby Glorishan » Sun Mar 24, 2002 7:26 pm

She was being constantly adjusted last night in order to ensure she was at a perfect level of difficulty. Realistically, she's never "needed" pendants. There have been times when we wasted all of our pendants, and were forced to complete her without them. It's just a lil more difficult.

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Postby Glorishan » Sun Mar 24, 2002 7:26 pm

Oops

Glorishan


[This message has been edited by Glorishan (edited 03-24-2002).]
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 24, 2002 10:49 pm

Are you trying to tell us you think pendants were never "needed" before on any Tiamat, we just brought them for precaution?

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Postby Glorishan » Mon Mar 25, 2002 12:55 am

I think Tiamat has always been 'doable' without pendants. Just like I think a lot of things are 'doable' without warriors. Does that mean you're not going to bring them? Heck no. We didn't always choose to fight Tiamat without pendants, but once they were used up they were used up. Nothing we could do about it except change how we approached her, and find a way to kill her.

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Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 25, 2002 3:50 am

wow, can't say that I agree. if you meant get another 10 players (4 or 5 more monks) as find another way to kill her then perhaps i can buy that. but no pendant tia? i dont remember that ever being successful (not that I went on half as many tia trips as either of you have).

If tia is at the perfect level of difficulty, then i expect it to get done nearly every weekend since we have consistent 40+ hour boots and a stock of pendants in game. somehow I doubt tia will remain that easy (relative of course).
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Postby Glorishan » Mon Mar 25, 2002 8:50 am

I don't know of any trips where we ever 'went' to Tiamat without any pendants. However, there were trips when we burned them all up before being able to kill her, and by the time we went back on her, she was fully healed. I don't think we ever brought up more people at that point, but rather just approached the fight a little differently. And no, we did not always win. I recall a couple trips where we had to abort, because that day luck just was not on our side.

Will we ever see Tiamat being done as often as it was on Toril? I don't know. Only time will tell. It truely is the greatest feature this MUD has to offer, in my opinion.

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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 25, 2002 11:44 am

Nods.. I remember doing tia with no pendants at least on one occasion because they were all burnt up and we had been unsuccesful. We also brought in like 5-6 extra hitters though too if i remember correctly.

Personally, I think tia would be ideal if it could be done with 15 of the most skilled players in the game over the course of 8 hours or so. At its current difficulty, i think it 15 is too few. On the other hand, you don't need 30+ like on toril. Thats a big step in the right direction. I was happy with the way tia was changed.

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Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 25, 2002 1:01 pm

i think 15 is to low even if they are the most skilled best eq'd players. 25 or 30 i think is the right number. zones like CC, invasion, SF, Manscorps are pretty tough without 15 skilled players. Tiamat should be much > than these considering the quality and number of pieces of loot.

if were not at that point already where there are 40 or 50 experienced tiamat goers, do a half dozen tia runs and youll easily have 15 experienced well equipped players to do a tia run almost any time.

while there is that 8ish hour time investment that is going to prevent tia from being done every day, i could see tia being done 2x a weekend for a few weeks (assuming exp holds out, and people re-exp).

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 03-25-2002).]
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Postby Dalar » Mon Mar 25, 2002 6:35 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by kiryan:
<B>i think 15 is to low even if they are the most skilled best eq'd players. 25 or 30 i think is the right number. zones like CC, invasion, SF, Manscorps are pretty tough without 15 skilled players. Tiamat should be much > than these considering the quality and number of pieces of loot.

if were not at that point already where there are 40 or 50 experienced tiamat goers, do a half dozen tia runs and youll easily have 15 experienced well equipped players to do a tia run almost any time.

while there is that 8ish hour time investment that is going to prevent tia from being done every day, i could see tia being done 2x a weekend for a few weeks (assuming exp holds out, and people re-exp).

[This message has been edited by kiryan (edited 03-25-2002).]</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sign me up for those weekly tiamat raids! after doing tiamat, alot of the people who went were kidna burnt out from doing an 8+ hour zone. be sure to consider that in your calculations Image and imho tiamat can be done with 15 if you have the exact classes.
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Postby Glorishan » Mon Mar 25, 2002 9:11 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dalar:
sign me up for those weekly tiamat raids! after doing tiamat, alot of the people who went were kidna burnt out from doing an 8+ hour zone. be sure to consider that in your calculations Image and imho tiamat can be done with 15 if you have the exact classes.</font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I think you're probably right that it could be done with 15 people, but a lot of things would have to go your way, and it would likely take a loooong time. In addition, I think it would be impossible without pendants if you only brought 15 people.

It's annoying. Every time I do Tiamat, I spend the next few days pondering about how I want to approach the next trip, and what I want to do differently. Stupid Tiamat, be less intriguing!

Glorishan
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Postby Gort » Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:20 pm

I just want to get to a place where I can go to Tiamat again, only done it once, and it was insane. Will take me some time, but hey, I'm patient... I have time...

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Postby Todrael » Wed Mar 27, 2002 4:13 pm

We've only recently gotten full Cloud Realms of Arlurrium down to an average of 1 spank and about 7 hours of zoning... and you can do the first run at Tiamat in about 8 hours? The rewards aren't even nearly comparable. I'm a bit worried, myself.

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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Mar 27, 2002 4:32 pm

Their 8 hours was with 25 people and Miax gating via macro. Does that relieve your worry any?
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Postby Wobb » Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:03 pm

I have a solution to all this.

Give clerics group full heal.

Nod me.

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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 27, 2002 6:05 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Todrael:
<B>We've only recently gotten full Cloud Realms of Arlurrium down to an average of 1 spank and about 7 hours of zoning... and you can do the first run at Tiamat in about 8 hours? The rewards aren't even nearly comparable. I'm a bit worried, myself.

-Todrael</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

7 hours for clouds? i thought u guys did it in 5 like us. yea and the rewards do stink :/

also, it took 8 hours b/c we had wait almost an hour to assemble group, then walk to the area, then figure out how to do certain fights. then we had to recover from the bad positioning of a reboot, and tiamat tweaks. I think we could have done tiamat in 6 hours tops on the next run, depending if anything else is tweaked.
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Postby rylan » Wed Mar 27, 2002 7:13 pm

*nods* ashiwi

The fact that the tele-room near tia was broken and miax had to trans people back up would make it substantially easier.
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Postby Glorishan » Wed Mar 27, 2002 9:14 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by rylan:
<B>*nods* ashiwi

The fact that the tele-room near tia was broken and miax had to trans people back up would make it substantially easier.</B></font><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that that aspect was definitely beneficial to the first Tiamat group. It saved us a couple minute each time we spanked at Tiamat, but I think future groups will do fine without it. The next run should be interesting with the new changes.

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Postby Corth » Wed Mar 27, 2002 10:17 pm

Nods, there is no doubt that we got an advantage insofar as we were trans'd back to the tia area after death. The reason being, the tia area was broken.. it was supposed to be gateable and wasn't so there was no other way back.

On the other hand, we had to spend a lot of time figuring stuff out in avernus. Future tia groups will benefit from that knowledge and not have to spend additional time there.

I'd say that all in all, it currently is an 8 hour zone. As for clouds being 7 hours, thats kind of insane. But even if it is (we do it in about 5 max), tia requires double the amount of people and a lot more planning in advance.

Corth
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Postby Elisten » Thu Mar 28, 2002 4:08 am

So that's how everyone has been getting ress so easily.

Interesting.

Sad really, if you think about it tho.

As MUCH as I want to have ress, I don't want it just handed to me. I'd rather be in on the action and actually have the.. hmmm, proverbial scars... to show it.

As for the full heal group thing.. I'll probably just toss it into the ocean. Image

Anyhow, my two cents.

Elisten




[This message has been edited by Elisten (edited 03-28-2002).]
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Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 28, 2002 5:01 am

if you do whole clouds zone (really 3 zones in 1) it can be super long, like doing scorps + seers. fastest ive seen clouds done is 5 hours. Thats without a grid searching and a messy grid spank. with both clan halls, grid searching, and a spank tod's right on with the 7+ hours.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:32 am

For you maybe Kiryan.. In Corth groups, we consistently are under 5.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:28 pm

gratz. corth's crew is pretty uber.
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Postby Malacar » Thu Mar 28, 2002 2:54 pm

That wasn't a brag, it was simply to point out it CAN be done in under 5. You made your post sound like it was impossible.
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Mar 28, 2002 6:38 pm

Corth always plans his Clouds runs for nights when he knows I'm busy. Rumor has it he hates me now! MUD feud!

Glorishan
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Thu Mar 28, 2002 10:57 pm

Holy cow... I'm still staring slack-jawed. Where are the flames? Where is the open rancor? The accusations of childishness?

We've come a long way on this board Image

In re: group fheal... Please... a thousand times no. Either it would enable twinking of regular dragons and massive melee fights, OR, it would simply escalate things, necessitating more mob upgrades... What's next, dragon area-bodyslam with chance to KO?

I understand why you suggested it - to level the playing field a bit between the Uber 0ldsk00l3rz and the new, up-and-coming zoners. But I'm afraid that down this path lies madness.
Gort
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Postby Gort » Fri Mar 29, 2002 3:53 pm

Sanity is overrated.

However, I'm not into the group fullheal, as it would make me useless, Gheal is the prim reason to bring shammy's anywhere. I imagine the suggestion was somewhat in jest, or at least I hope it was.

I'm all for separating the quests, but then again, I also enjoy quests, even though they can often be frustrating.

Toplack
Treladian
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Postby Treladian » Sat Mar 30, 2002 9:37 pm

After Imphras's dragonburger binge last night, we had used a total of 0 pendants out of those we brought. More evidence that the things aren't necessary for Tia anymore. Pendants are really just a substitute for ghealers, the right group and the right tactics can make up for a lack of them and in some cases be more efficient.

------------------
"Maybe I should stop and ask for directions . . ."
rylan
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Postby rylan » Sun Mar 31, 2002 3:24 am

yup Image

Of course tia had her way with us the first few attempts.. lol
Baikalisan
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Postby Baikalisan » Sun Mar 31, 2002 3:58 am

If it aint broke, dont try to fix it.

Image


My wittiness astounds me.
Glorishan
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Postby Glorishan » Sun Mar 31, 2002 4:33 am

Having 35 people didn't hurt :P

Glorishan
rylan
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Postby rylan » Sun Mar 31, 2002 6:46 pm

I think it was 30 ppl actually at tia.. the other people were there to provide preserves and transportation back to the zone. Image

We went through most of the dragons under 30, since some people had to go for a few hours and come back.
Jurdex
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Postby Jurdex » Sun Mar 31, 2002 10:32 pm

Tiamat was harder (for a while) for us than it was for DSR, Glorishan.

Maybe if you don't screw people over with the bids you guys can entice more people to show. Image

Dornax
Jurdex
Malacar
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Postby Malacar » Sun Mar 31, 2002 10:47 pm

Wow, there's a flame. What the hell was the point of that?
Yayaril
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Postby Yayaril » Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:44 am

Yayaril whips out a flame thrower and begins torching you whilst cackling fanatically!


Yayaril

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